| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
My only real wish is for the Magus to have a good reason to invest into INT. It is already the least valuable stat in the game by a fair margin and with cantrips losing the modifier, there is even less reason to have it now. And by "having a good reason", I don't mean making it mandatory, the class is already MAD as hell. I want it to have a real, tangible benefit.
Given that SOM is losing several full pages due to the elimination of spell schools, I think there is some space to add something cool that's not combat related. The combat part of the class is already great.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm more wondering how in the world arcane cascade would work without spellschools since you mentioned them! Not sure when or how we'll get the magus addressed for the remaster. I do kind of disagree about the int thing though, I'm pretty glad we don't need it. In fact I really just think we could and should get promoted to 10 hp
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm more wondering how in the world arcane cascade would work without spellschools since you mentioned them! Not sure when or how we'll get the magus addressed for the remaster. I do kind of disagree about the int thing though, I'm pretty glad we don't need it. In fact I really just think we could and should get promoted to 10 hp
Arcane Cascade pretty much has to be simplified as far as non-damage spells are concerned. I'm betting it is always force damage (basically the closest we have to "pure magic" damage) or the same physical damage type as your weapon. The latter is pretty bad, though, so I hope for the former. Depending on whether they want the complexity (plus wordiness) or not, as an exception the damage could change depending on some traits. Mental damage for mental. Vitality for vitality. Void for void. That's it, I think?
As far as not needing INT, I'm right there with you. But given that they are at least part caster, it feels weird that Magi almost literally receive no in-class benefit. The only non-generic thing you can do with INT is learning spells, which is next to nothing. Or some options with Expansive Spellstrike, if wasting your resources is your thing.
As for the 10HP, I seriously doubt that'll happen. Thematically for Paizo, a Magus is quite squishy.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm more wondering how in the world arcane cascade would work without spellschools since you mentioned them! Not sure when or how we'll get the magus addressed for the remaster. I do kind of disagree about the int thing though, I'm pretty glad we don't need it. In fact I really just think we could and should get promoted to 10 hpArcane Cascade pretty much has to be simplified as far as non-damage spells are concerned. I'm betting it is always force damage (basically the closest we have to "pure magic" damage) or the same physical damage type as your weapon. The latter is pretty bad, though, so I hope for the former. Depending on whether they want the complexity (plus wordiness) or not, as an exception the damage could change depending on some traits. Mental damage for mental. Vitality for vitality. Void for void. That's it, I think?
As far as not needing INT, I'm right there with you. But given that they are at least part caster, it feels weird that Magi almost literally receive no in-class benefit. The only non-generic thing you can do with INT is learning spells, which is next to nothing. Or some options with Expansive Spellstrike, if wasting your resources is your thing.
As for the 10HP, I seriously doubt that'll happen. Thematically for Paizo, a Magus is quite squishy.
Having INT 14 to archetype into Witch or Wizard is definitely a thing for Magus.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spell DC
For if you want to add an element of Wizardry to Magus beyond "I am good at Spellstrike"
Investing in your Spell DC is investing in failure. You have few spell slots, INT isn't your key stat and your progression isn't good. Unless you get very lucky, it is a complete waste of your precious resources.
You absolutely want some things besides "spellstrike slots", in fact using most of your slots for other things is a good idea. But there are plenty of useful spells that don't require a save.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want your wish to come true, don't forget to pay the 100,000 gp. :)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spell DC
For if you want to add an element of Wizardry to Magus beyond "I am good at Spellstrike"
Investing in your Spell DC is investing in failure. You have few spell slots, INT isn't your key stat and your progression isn't good. Unless you get very lucky, it is a complete waste of your precious resources.
You absolutely want some things besides "spellstrike slots", in fact using most of your slots for other things is a good idea. But there are plenty of useful spells that don't require a save.
As was once pointed out to me, you're only behind on proficiency at 6 levels out of 20 (7-8, 15-16, 19-20). So long as you only aim to not get crit-saved against (which is the same situation as a full caster anyway) you can get away with the usual save spells at most levels. Particularly on a bow magus that can afford 16 base int.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As was once pointed out to me, you're only behind on proficiency at 6 levels out of 20 (7-8, 15-16, 19-20). So long as you only aim to not get crit-saved against (which is the same situation as a full caster anyway) you can get away with the usual save spells at most levels. Particularly on a bow magus that can afford 16 base int.Spell DC
For if you want to add an element of Wizardry to Magus beyond "I am good at Spellstrike"
Investing in your Spell DC is investing in failure. You have few spell slots, INT isn't your key stat and your progression isn't good. Unless you get very lucky, it is a complete waste of your precious resources.
You absolutely want some things besides "spellstrike slots", in fact using most of your slots for other things is a good idea. But there are plenty of useful spells that don't require a save.
You're not only massively behind for 6 levels due to proficiency, you are also usually behind by 1 or more due to lagging behind in INT, even when starting at 16. One from 1-4, 10-14 and 17-19 (due to apex items). At 20, it's two. That's 12 levels, so more than half the game.
So really, you are playing normally for only three (!) levels, 5, 6 and 9. And while a -1 for most of that isn't too bad, that isn't the whole story. Because a full caster has the slots to play that game after a while. You have 4 slots total. 6 for certain hybrid studies that can take save spells. Are you really going to waste one of these precious slots on something that is more likely to fail than not?
And this is the best case scenario. Most Magi can't really afford 16 INT to start with.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're not only massively behind for 6 levels due to proficiency, you are also usually behind by 1 or more due to lagging behind in INT, even when starting at 16. One from 1-4, 10-14 and 17-19 (due to apex items). At 20, it's two. That's 12 levels, so more than half the game.
So really, you are playing normally for only three (!) levels, 5, 6 and 9. And while a -1 for most of that isn't too bad, that isn't the whole story. Because a full caster has the slots to play that game after a while. You have 4 slots total. 6 for certain hybrid studies that can take save spells. Are you really going to waste one of these precious slots on something that is more likely to fail than not?
And this is the best case scenario. Most Magi can't really afford 16 INT to start with.
See, that's the trick. As soon as you discard any possibility of an enemy failing and aim only to avoid crit success, the range of what is viable dramatically increases. Between psychic archetype casting slots with signature true strike and your hybrid study slots for more TS or things like freedom of movement, and your focus points for spellstriking you have plenty of leeway to use your slots for something useful instead.
Slow (especially AoE), shadow siphon, resilient sphere and similar spells become available options even when you're a little behind so long as you have that base 16 so you aren't too far behind. Of course, nothing is stopping you from just using the usual non-interactive meta spells, but having the option is nice.
There's also the side benefit that somebody needs to take the L and boost int in case you need those skills to disarm a magic hazard. But that's a different concern.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Investing in your Spell DC is investing in failure. You have few spell slots, INT isn't your key stat and your progression isn't good. Unless you get very lucky, it is a complete waste of your precious resources.Spell DC
For if you want to add an element of Wizardry to Magus beyond "I am good at Spellstrike"
I was thinking non-StarlitSpan Magus using save-based cantrips (or even spell attack cantrips) as a ranged option.
No resource expenditure needed.
Granted, that also isn't a huge part of the class or a standard thing that Magus is going to be working to try and do during combat.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hope they buff cascade damage considerably and stipulate that you can't add it to spell strikes; then more magus players might push to get into their cascades and be persuaded to pursue a few more varied turns when the opportunities arise. Just an idea
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A hasted magus casting a debuf or blast, striding, and striking is badass. If you want to do this, you may want to start str/dex 18, int 16.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hope they buff cascade damage considerably and stipulate that you can't add it to spell strikes; then more magus players might push to get into their cascades and be persuaded to pursue a few more varied turns when the opportunities arise. Just an idea
It would help considerably if they first released an Errata that allowed Arcane Cascade to work. I get tired of explaining to GMs ‘Hey, as written this stance doesn’t work, how are you going to handle it?’ before each session where I want to play my Magus.
I also hope the eventual errata doesn’t cause the Magus to go out of stance if they move.
——
In any case, it seems the remaster will present some issues for a Magus.
I hope they buff cascade damage considerably and stipulate that you can't add it to spell strikes; then more magus players might push to get into their cascades and be persuaded to pursue a few more varied turns when the opportunities arise. Just an idea
That could be interesting. Feel like the idea was to give Magus on and off rounds and a more flexible action economy but that doesn't really play out always in practice from my experience.
I kind of feel if we ever get an unchained book for PF2e Magus should go slotless like in theory combining a spell with a strike is cool I think it is a lot less cool when the best way to approach it is to use with a cantrip
Magus could use more slotless activities but this would be a weak solution. The whole conceit of the class is casting spells and swinging a weapon, making it no longer a spellcaster would be kind of like making fighters no longer use weapons.
I get tired of explaining to GMs ‘Hey, as written this stance doesn’t work, how are you going to handle it?’ before each session where I want to play my Magus.
You could just stop doing that then.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I get tired of explaining to GMs ‘Hey, as written this stance doesn’t work, how are you going to handle it?’ before each session where I want to play my Magus.You could just stop doing that then.
Stop doing what? Playing Magus?
The idea of just assuming that the way that you want to run Arcane Cascade is the 'correct' way of running it that the GM is going to agree with - and then playing it that way without ever consulting with the GM... That's rather rude.
What that does is puts a lot of peer pressure on the GM to simply allow you to run the ability the way that you want instead of having to call it out and have a discussion about it.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
I GM a lot.
I believe that the Golden Rule is a good guideline for how to live.
I would not want as a GM to be surprised by something like the Arcane Cascade issue.
Therefore, as a player I talk to the GM before the session so they are aware of the situation and have an opportunity to make a ruling before the game starts.
As a GM I will explain how I run Arcane Cascade when I find out a player brought a Magus to play at my table.
Call it a quirk or an edict / anathema. I find the gaming table is more friendly when you do this sort of thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My only real wish is for the Magus to have a good reason to invest into INT.
I hardly see how not to start with 16 Int on a Magus, especially since the release of the Psychic. The Magus only needs 4 stats (Str/Dex, Int, Con, Wis) and Int is the second most important one.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stop doing what?
Trying to drag your GMs into weird rules forum tier RAW minutiae debates. I mean obviously if you and your GMs enjoy that thing, more power to you, but from my experience trying to drag someone into RAW insanity at the table is just a really good way to exasperate GMs.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, if I'm GMing and someone told me "hey, Arcane Cascade doesn't work" my response would be "sure it does" and I hope we could leave it at that. Please don't argue with me that your stuff doesn't work.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, if I'm GMing and someone told me "hey, Arcane Cascade doesn't work" my response would be "sure it does" and I hope we could leave it at that. Please don't argue with me that your stuff doesn't work.
That's not an argument, and even responding that way is coming to an agreement of sorts
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just give the Magus spell like abilities to fulfill the fantasy of casting spells swinging swords like I don't think they'd want to give it anything other than Bounded casting which imo feels like an experiment they tried out and it didn't like which is why Psychic probably didn't use it
I don't know if you were here for both playtest, but that is not why one has bounded and one has only 2 slots per level. The psychic is a full spellcaster that trades extra slots for better at-will abilities, the magus is a martial caster hybrid and so gets very limited access to spells but the way the game is designed you need at least level 9 slots to do good damage with slotted spells. I really do think this worked out for both classes and was an appropriate trade-off that suited each class. Which is what I said in both playtests. More over they took the playtest feat that gave you lower level spell slots for various utility spells like true-strike, haste, fly etc and incorporated it into the base chassis with Studious Spells. Now I think they could have done a few more slots here, but all the way around this is a good compromise. The Magus chassis fulfills the class fantasy and only needs a tweak here or there. Perhaps inexorable iron should have a feat that gives them heavy armor proficiency, perhaps the magus should have 10hp, maybe arcane cascade needs a tiny buff and a change to the rules so it functions by RAW. With items like the spellstriker staff we now have ways to get more spells and can even use wands and scrolls, even spellstriking with scrolls. Without being an actual caster I'm not sure we could do any of this without getting trick magic item which feels extremely off flavor. I'm down for say, the bloodrager to be a focus spells magical martial as it was a 1/2 caster, mostly a martial, but I'm not down for the magus to be this
You don't need dex on a magus. 12 Dex is enough for medium armor to hit ac cap and if you play high levels, you can always go sentinel to get bulwark.
I would argue that the level 1 and 2 feats are some of the least interesting on the magus so sentinel at level 2 is just better than anything like expansive spellstrike, a familiar or what have you. Assuming no free archetype, free archetype easy pick. Just grab wizard/psychic a little later
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't need dex on a magus.
Starlit Span begs to differ.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My only real wish is for the Magus to have a good reason to invest into INT.I hardly see how not to start with 16 Int on a Magus, especially since the release of the Psychic. The Magus only needs 4 stats (Str/Dex, Int, Con, Wis) and Int is the second most important one.
As Ninja said, it' really 5 stats. It's only 4 for Starlit Span and melee builds that drop STR completely.
Of those stats, INT is by far your least important. It does almost nothing even with heavy investment. Even Recall Knowledge is one of the most easily substitutable in the game. It is also very easy to distribute across party members.
You can completely substitute INT with CHA now, including going the Psychic route. If you are a Laughing Shadow, it even has actually beneficial interactions with your class, outside of just being a more useful stat.
You don't need dex on a magus.Starlit Span begs to differ.
Or you know, wanting to stay alive. It's not like Magus' saves are terrible and everyone and their mother forces Reflex saves for high damage... oh wait ^^
|
|
I'm more wondering how in the world arcane cascade would work without spellschools since you mentioned them! Not sure when or how we'll get the magus addressed for the remaster. I do kind of disagree about the int thing though, I'm pretty glad we don't need it. In fact I really just think we could and should get promoted to 10 hpArcane Cascade pretty much has to be simplified as far as non-damage spells are concerned. I'm betting it is always force damage (basically the closest we have to "pure magic" damage) or the same physical damage type as your weapon. The latter is pretty bad, though, so I hope for the former. Depending on whether they want the complexity (plus wordiness) or not, as an exception the damage could change depending on some traits. Mental damage for mental. Vitality for vitality. Void for void. That's it, I think?
As far as not needing INT, I'm right there with you. But given that they are at least part caster, it feels weird that Magi almost literally receive no in-class benefit. The only non-generic thing you can do with INT is learning spells, which is next to nothing. Or some options with Expansive Spellstrike, if wasting your resources is your thing.
As for the 10HP, I seriously doubt that'll happen. Thematically for Paizo, a Magus is quite squishy.
I invested in Expansive Spellstrike for my Starlit Span Magus MC Cleric to be able to do positive energy damage to undead thanks to Disrupt Undead but with a bigger range and with additional damage. The spell deals this type of damage in all cases except critical success on the save. So higher INT helps prevent the latter case where I would deal only the damage of a one-action shot with my two-action Spellstrike.
I like having a toolbox, even as a Magus.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You don't need dex on a magus.Starlit Span begs to differ.
Given the latest selection of ranged weapons, I agree ^_^
For me, I just wish there was an advanced feat for Expansive Spellstrike that basically REMOVES the saving throw for your Spellstrike's target.
I'm so sorry, but right now, if I Spellstrike you with Electric Arc (the ONLY Electricity cantrip), you can reduce or outright negate the damage, despite being stabbed by spear point.
|
|
You don't need dex on a magus.Starlit Span begs to differ.Given the latest selection of ranged weapons, I agree ^_^
For me, I just wish there was an advanced feat for Expansive Spellstrike that basically REMOVES the saving throw for your Spellstrike's target.
I'm so sorry, but right now, if I Spellstrike you with Electric Arc (the ONLY Electricity cantrip), you can reduce or outright negate the damage, despite being stabbed by spear point.
You still inflict the spear point damage AFAIK.
You still inflict the spear point damage AFAIK.You don't need dex on a magus.Starlit Span begs to differ.Given the latest selection of ranged weapons, I agree ^_^
For me, I just wish there was an advanced feat for Expansive Spellstrike that basically REMOVES the saving throw for your Spellstrike's target.
I'm so sorry, but right now, if I Spellstrike you with Electric Arc (the ONLY Electricity cantrip), you can reduce or outright negate the damage, despite being stabbed by spear point.
Yes, but there's no way the target would completely avoid the spell being discharged.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, but there's no way the target would completely avoid the spell being discharged.You still inflict the spear point damage AFAIK.You don't need dex on a magus.Starlit Span begs to differ.Given the latest selection of ranged weapons, I agree ^_^
For me, I just wish there was an advanced feat for Expansive Spellstrike that basically REMOVES the saving throw for your Spellstrike's target.
I'm so sorry, but right now, if I Spellstrike you with Electric Arc (the ONLY Electricity cantrip), you can reduce or outright negate the damage, despite being stabbed by spear point.
You can be Immobilized and even Paralyzed and still critically succeed at a Reflex save. And such as been the case for a long long time.
It's the same here.
Yes, but there's no way the target would completely avoid the spell being discharged.You still inflict the spear point damage AFAIK.You don't need dex on a magus.Starlit Span begs to differ.Given the latest selection of ranged weapons, I agree ^_^
For me, I just wish there was an advanced feat for Expansive Spellstrike that basically REMOVES the saving throw for your Spellstrike's target.
I'm so sorry, but right now, if I Spellstrike you with Electric Arc (the ONLY Electricity cantrip), you can reduce or outright negate the damage, despite being stabbed by spear point.
You can be Immobilized and even Paralyzed and still critically succeed at a Reflex save. And such as been the case for a long long time.
It's the same here.
Can you negate the damage of a Flaming or Frost weapon with a save? No? Then it shouldn't apply to a Spellstrike using a spell with a save, especially with an advanced feat that denies it.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stop doing what?Trying to drag your GMs into weird rules forum tier RAW minutiae debates. I mean obviously if you and your GMs enjoy that thing, more power to you, but from my experience trying to drag someone into RAW insanity at the table is just a really good way to exasperate GMs.
Well, the strict RAW ruling that Arcane Cascade ends immediately is fairly obviously broken. If a GM insists on that ruling, then I probably don't want to play with that GM.
But there are more than one way of ruling on Arcane Cascade that are valid interpretations. I would have to check back on the threads discussing it, but from what I remember, I was seeing:
* Arcane Cascade lasts indefinitely until either combat ends or you start a different stance.
* Arcane Cascade lasts as long as you continue casting a spell or using spellstrike each round.
* Arcane Cascade lasts until you use a different action than Cast a Spell or Spellstrike.
Each of those is going to have very different impacts on what can or can't be done during a battle.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are people really under the impression that the non-PC1 and PC2 Classes are going to get completely retooled and balanced -with Errata-? Like, for real for real?
Errata is, at best, going to fix basic incompatibilities with the Remaster changes and provide very minor tweaks. If you want a fully refurbished Magus you're going to have to wait for PC3 like the rest of us, there is no way they're leaving the rest of their puppies out in the rain after they cycle back and drastically improve and rebalance all the Classes in PC1+2, absolutely zero chance, and they're certainly not going to just do it for free, they've already lost a mind-blowingly large sum of money these last few years with all the delays pushing back products, loss of staff, reorganization, reorganization AGAIN, fees to deal with unionization, paying UNGODLY sums to IP lawyers, hiring even MORE IP lawyers, and then investing their entire non-AP/Module division into rewriting/refining the entirety of the Core Rules + GMG + APG to try to save it from potential future HASBRO shenanigans.
Hoping for a free full "Remaster treatment" for the Magus via Errata is getting your hopes up, to put it lightly, they're going to need to find a way to produce it in a way that it can actually make money, Lisa is wealthy but her pockets aren't infinitely deep and this business isn't a charity.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
They're going to have to do a Magus pass because Arcane Cascade references spell schools which no longer exist. I'm pretty sure they've said they're going to have to errata specific rules that don't work with the remaster rules (including how the Psychic works with the new refocus).
|
|
The fix for this is crazy simple though, instead of referencing a School Trait they simply have the Bonus Damage match the type of Damage dealt by the damaging Spell you cast. It takes up less space, it's easier to figure out how it works and it just makes more sense. That's prime "band-aid" emergency fix type stuff that I'm sure it will get, no doubt about that, but reworking their Class DC, significantly altering the various Hybrid Studies, providing more damage boosts or functionality to INT... that's more than dropping your car off at the cleaners for two hours to get a detail, that's major bodywork that will have the car in the shop for weeks at a time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The fix for this is crazy simple though, instead of referencing a School Trait they simply have the Bonus Damage match the type of Damage dealt by the damaging Spell you cast.
Arcane Cascade already does that.
Not all spells do damage. If someone casts Slow and then goes into Arcane Cascade, the bonus damage would match your weapon. If the spell had been Shield, the bonus damage would be Force. It was only based on the school of magic if the spell itself didn’t do damage.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not saying the fix is hard. I'm saying the fix needs to exist officially if Paizo wants "Secrets of Magic" to be compatible with the Remaster rules. Most likely they are aware of this.
If they are already doing an errata pass because they have to, there's no reason they couldn't address a few other things they have flagged as well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This really only applies to Magus and especially the Psychic, as those are the ones that are really affected. I mean I'd love some major gunslinger changes (especially buffs), but I'm not holding my breath.
For Magus, there is way more than just Arcane Cascade. And the "fix" you described is already part of the ability. It's non-damaging spells that are the problem. Spellstrike could also use some cleanup, especially with how the Strike and spell are separated. Starlit Span is outperforming every other hybrid study and usually every other ranged attacker as well. And all of those things are tweaks not a full rework. The whole INT thing is just a hopeful request, not something I seriously expect to be adressed. The book will have at least 8 pages that are no longer relevant to the game. I don't know if it is worth it to them to replace those, but hey ^^.
For the Psychic, less than a minor rework is not possible. A significant part of its class budget is wrapped up in focus stuff, which is largely invalidated by the focus changes. Plus the cantrip changes possibly making some revisions to conscious minds necessary.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think you're all overestimating what Paizo wants to do with errata a lot.
If we're lucky you might see some nice QoL tweaks, but expect Arcane Cascade to simply say "or force for non-damaging spells" or something similar and nothing else.
And, tbh, I wouldn't expect any changes to the psychic outside an adjustment for Oscillating Wave re: ignition's new damage die.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure they have a file of flagged things for errata, like typos.
They might as well clear out those flags when they drop the needed "how arcane cascade works now" errata.