Champion’s Code
"You follow a code of conduct, beginning with tenets shared by all champions of an alignment (such as good), and continuing with tenets of your cause...Tenets are listed in order of importance, starting with the most important. If a situation places two tenets in conflict, you aren’t in a no-win situation; instead, follow the more important tenet."
"The Tenets of Good:
All champions of good alignment follow these tenets.
• You must never perform acts anathema to your deity (Sarenrae Anathema: create undead, lie, deny a repentant creature an opportunity for redemption, fail to strike down evil) or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
• You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it. This tenet doesn’t force you to take action against possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them."
It seems like allowing immediate harm through inaction is preferable to lying...
But this part seems to imply not?:
"For instance, as a paladin, if an evil king asked you if you’re hiding refugees so he could execute them, you could lie to him, since the tenet against lying is less important than preventing harm to innocents."
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The Paladin of a deity that does not have an anathema against lying could lie to prevent harm to innocents.
The Paladin of a deity that as such anathema (like Sarenrae does) cannot lie, even to prevent harm to innocents.
More precisely, they can lie, but then they fall.
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It's been so long since our last Paladin Falls thread!
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I personally believe that you could but you may get a warning or sign to perhaps next time try and find another way. Falling for one infractsure that still saved several lies would be extremely petty especially for the goddess of redemption. I would say maybe at most you get the minor bane of saranrae.
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Champion’s Code
"You follow a code of conduct, beginning with tenets shared by all champions of an alignment (such as good), and continuing with tenets of your cause...Tenets are listed in order of importance, starting with the most important. If a situation places two tenets in conflict, you aren’t in a no-win situation; instead, follow the more important tenet.""The Tenets of Good:
All champions of good alignment follow these tenets.
• You must never perform acts anathema to your deity (Sarenrae Anathema: create undead, lie, deny a repentant creature an opportunity for redemption, fail to strike down evil) or willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
• You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it. This tenet doesn’t force you to take action against possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them."It seems like allowing immediate harm through inaction is preferable to lying...
But this part seems to imply not?:
"For instance, as a paladin, if an evil king asked you if you’re hiding refugees so he could execute them, you could lie to him, since the tenet against lying is less important than preventing harm to innocents."
Realistically, this is going to be a GM call. This is all being enforced by the deity in question, after all.
If the GM leans towards strict, then Sarenrae is a goddess of honesty. People knowing that divine followers of Sarenrae are telling the truth probably saves many lives every day. Sarenrae might also accept that you made a righteous call in lying to save people, but not cheapen the decision by removing the consequences. Perhaps the consequences are mitigated in keeping with the circumstances, such that the DCs and costs are lowered.
I agree that some other minor sign of "okay, but be careful" is more appropriate.
Does Sarenrae value truth over people's lives? Very doubtful. But, we're playing a game with mechanics, and it's hard to get everything lined up perfectly. Sometimes you get edge cases like this. The GM probably shouldn't be a jerk about it, and if they do run strictly, it's best to have a good explanation.
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The GM is allowed to roleplay all of the gods. You can thus decide whether if the god in question, if they were paying attention to you specifically, would have a problem with what you did.
So it's going to depend on every bit of context that is available. The thing a character with edicts and anathema needs to do is "do their best to do the right thing".
The Paladin of a deity that does not have an anathema against lying could lie to prevent harm to innocents.
The Paladin of a deity that as such anathema (like Sarenrae does) cannot lie, even to prevent harm to innocents.
More precisely, they can lie, but then they fall.
Thanks!
Does the left-to-right order of Tenets matter, or are they considered equally important if they're on the same bullet point?
e.g. would the order of "perform acts anathema to your deity or willingly commit an evil act" mean murder is preferable lying and that lying is preferable to creating undead?
Am I correct in interpreting "willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell." as not an exhaustive list of evil acts?
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The Paladin of a deity that does not have an anathema against lying could lie to prevent harm to innocents.
The Paladin of a deity that as such anathema (like Sarenrae does) cannot lie, even to prevent harm to innocents.
More precisely, they can lie, but then they fall.
Thanks!
Does the left-to-right order of Tenets matter, or are they considered equally important if they're on the same bullet point?
e.g. would the order of "perform acts anathema to your deity or willingly commit an evil act" mean murder is preferable lying and that lying is preferable to creating undead?Am I correct in interpreting "willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell." as not an exhaustive list of evil acts?
There's nothing in the rules saying deity anathema order matters. That's definitely not a complete list of evil acts; nor could such a thing practically exist.
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Just tell the king that these are not the refugees he is looking for and you'll be fine.
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The Champion of Sarenrae should just let other PCs do the talking.
Deciding to play a Champion of the goddess of honesty is a player's choice. The player has to prepare beforehand for situations like these that are a common part of adventuring.
Thou shall not lie is not a surprise trap sprung on Champions of Sarenrae.
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Follow a goddess who doesn’t have a ban on lying if you wanna do it.
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I feel like if this circumstance ever actually came up, the only solution would be to ignore the false choice and take a third option. "I am not going to tell you that" is an honest statement and if the villains yo whom you would need to lie press the issue, we'll it should be no difficulty adhering to the commandment to strike down evil.
Out of game the only time this situation comes up where there are absolutely no other options than lying or letting an innocent come to harm, the GM has simply decided to force the Champion to fall. In any case, the only thing the Champion can do is what they think is best, then ask for forgiveness/guideance if it turns out to be the wrong idea.
Just tell the king that these are not the refugees he is looking for and you'll be fine.
Agreed, you are not forced to answer yes/no.
You can answer a variety of things, with the ideal dialogue line being antagonism towards the evil doer that leads them astray.
“What? Your men lost sight of the refugees, and now they are sending you my way? You’re wasting your time. If I were harboring the refugees, you know that interrogating me will get you nowhere - I’d never reveal their location. What worries me is your awful choice in lieutenants… as a matter of fact, I was looking for employment and I think I could do your kingdom a great service as your new Master of the Watch…”
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When you choose to roleplay a character with an anathema, your character needs to accept and believe in that anathema as a base line. Yes you can play characters on the edge and transition characters. But they should not be the norm. When you choose to play a follower of a deity, especially the religious classes, your character needs to be onboard with it all.
I always wanna clarify my previous post, anathema and edicts should matter. I just also think one infracsture ahouldnt create a fall, but consequences can and chould exist. And context and such those matter.
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As stated by others the correct thing for the Paladin to say here is "I would not tell you if they were here". The king's soldiers might try to force their way past you at that point, but that's what your champion reaction is for.
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The first thing to consider for every anathema is the importance of that anathema in Relation to what's happening
My Personal call in this: lives are more important then honestly, but If that is your reasoning for lying saerenrae is probably mit going to Kick you out
The Order of operations probably would be to ask yourself some questions first:
-can the lives be saved without lying?
-can I Tell truth that would save these people?
-could I win a Fight? (Without Putting the people I want to save in unneccesary risk?)
And possibly circumstancial questions
Saerenrae is first and foremost a good goddes of the sun and healing
She won't kick you out for a Fon with a good reason behind it. If you Bend the truth and lie repeatedly you will feel the consequences (and maybe See a sign that you should Go to one of her wives instead)
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The GM is allowed to roleplay all of the gods.
Yes I just tired if the GM plays them all the same. Or just plays them according to their personal morality. It is much more prefereable when the GM embraces the tenets of the gods faith. The gods are different and aren't much like the religions we are familiar with.
Have fun wih them.
Which is sort of funny when you realize that such a thing very definitely exists in Pathfinder's setting.There's nothing in the rules saying deity anathema order matters. That's definitely not a complete list of evil acts; nor could such a thing practically exist.The Paladin of a deity that does not have an anathema against lying could lie to prevent harm to innocents.
The Paladin of a deity that as such anathema (like Sarenrae does) cannot lie, even to prevent harm to innocents.
More precisely, they can lie, but then they fall.
Thanks!
Does the left-to-right order of Tenets matter, or are they considered equally important if they're on the same bullet point?
e.g. would the order of "perform acts anathema to your deity or willingly commit an evil act" mean murder is preferable lying and that lying is preferable to creating undead?Am I correct in interpreting "willingly commit an evil act, such as murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell." as not an exhaustive list of evil acts?
*wistful sigh*
Would that we only had a wiki magically capable of updating itself with every new bit of lore as it becomes available. On the other hand, I suppose it would be a lot harder for the writers and other creative folk responsible for directing the lore to get paid for their efforts. Unless we can also work out some manner of magical system by which writers may survive irrespective of the vagaries of capitalism.
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Because of the mechanical nature of anathema (for cleric/champion) in any kind of conflict they just kinda trump any edict because that is purely roleplay which leads to the idea that Sarenrae for this thread's example cares far more about punishing a champion of hers for lying for any reason even if it's to say protect allies and I just find it hard to believe that is keeping with how Sarenrae is at all
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A few questions that would have to be answered:
1. Whose life are you saving and why?
2. Who are you answering to?
3. Is it truly necessary to lie?
As a DM I don't apply generic anathema and assume the god is some idiot who follows something to the letter to the point it contradicts their overall ethos.
I would not ever run a deity in that fashion. Sarenrae ultimate goal is the protection of life and redeeming others, not make sure no one lies to accomplish her greater aims.
If the follower of Sarenrae were in a situation where lying was the only method to save the life or save lives, then they can lie as Sarenrae primarily being about saving lives, not ensuring the entire world is honest.
So it would depend on the situation. But in no way do I believe there are not times when a follower of Sarenrae can lie to save a worthy or innocent life. Sarenrae is first and foremost a protector of life above all, a redeemer, and a force of goodness in the world. If by not lying someone that did not deserve to die would die, I would not censure a follower of hers lying.
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Consider how many innocent lives will be lost if it becomes known that a Champion of the goddess of Honesty will lie.
There is a reason Sarenrae has this anathema.
In my game, the lying Champion will fall. If they survive, this will open the way to great soul-searching and RP opportunities.
And I do not really understand why so many posters seem to think Sarenrae's servants become incapable of lying. They totally can. And it will have appropriate consequences.
That is free will in action.
Consider how many innocent lives will be lost if it becomes known that a Champion of the goddess of Honesty will lie.
There is a reason Sarenrae has this anathema.
In my game, the lying Champion will fall. If they survive, this will open the way to great soul-searching and RP opportunities.
And I do not really understand why so many posters seem to think Sarenrae's servants become incapable of lying. They totally can. And it will have appropriate consequences.
That is free will in action.
I think the part that most people get hung up on is that, on paper, the consequences for lying are the same as for letting an innocent be slain. Sarenrae was not a lawful goddess, so I don't see her enforcing the letter of a rule in an edge case designed specifically to test that rule against an improbable extreme corner case (ie where there simply is no other possibility aside from lying).
Perhaps I could see a slap-on-the-wrist punishment ("we don't lie around here but you still did the right thing, say 20 hail desnas and head out with a clear conscience") but the hypothetical harm to future innocents doesn't strike me as a compelling argument to sacrifice present innocents esp for a nonlawful deity, so punishing that the same as the reverse doesn't feel right.
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Consider how many innocent lives will be lost if it becomes known that a Champion of the goddess of Honesty will lie.
There is a reason Sarenrae has this anathema.
In my game, the lying Champion will fall. If they survive, this will open the way to great soul-searching and RP opportunities.
And I do not really understand why so many posters seem to think Sarenrae's servants become incapable of lying. They totally can. And it will have appropriate consequences.
That is free will in action.
I think the part that most people get hung up on is that, on paper, the consequences for lying are the same as for letting an innocent be slain. Sarenrae was not a lawful goddess, so I don't see her enforcing the letter of a rule in an edge case designed specifically to test that rule against an improbable extreme corner case (ie where there simply is no other possibility aside from lying).
Perhaps I could see a slap-on-the-wrist punishment ("we don't lie around here but you still did the right thing, say 20 hail desnas and head out with a clear conscience") but the hypothetical harm to future innocents doesn't strike me as a compelling argument to sacrifice present innocents esp for a nonlawful deity, so punishing that the same as the reverse doesn't feel right.
The thing is you do not have to sacrifice the present innocents.
Obviously Sarenrae values honesty very very much. Likely because it is extremely important to her way of doing Good. That is what anathemas mean.
In my game, the Champion falls. And can get back to Sarenrae's grace again. Or choose another more fitting deity.
I honestly don't think it would occur to the paladin to lie, or even dissemble. Either stand back and let someone else do the talking, or stand up and tell the wicked king what you think of him, and roll for initiative. If the character I'm envisioning is comfortable biting his tongue and being silent in the face of evil, I probably wouldn't play him as a Champion of Sarenrae. Champions, in my opinion, should be naturally and boldly inclined to follow their deity's ideals. Falling shouldn't be impossible, but it should be uncommon circumstances. If you're trying to finesse your anathema, you're probably not in it properly.
Lets get another Edge case
You are seperated by the group for reasons, you are alone with a group of innocents
You are asked about those people
You are outnumbered 20 to 1
Saying the truth would condemn those people and fighting would be suicidal (and also threatrn your charges)
So, what do you do?
Dame question for raven black
If a lie would make me Fall in auch a situation then I certainly wouldn't want to be in that Game
I honestly don't think it would occur to the paladin to lie, or even dissemble. Either stand back and let someone else do the talking, or stand up and tell the wicked king what you think of him, and roll for initiative. If the character I'm envisioning is comfortable biting his tongue and being silent in the face of evil, I probably wouldn't play him as a Champion of Sarenrae. Champions, in my opinion, should be naturally and boldly inclined to follow their deity's ideals. Falling shouldn't be impossible, but it should be uncommon circumstances. If you're trying to finesse your anathema, you're probably not in it properly.Lets get another Edge case
You are seperated by the group for reasons, you are alone with a group of innocents
You are asked about those people
You are outnumbered 20 to 1
Saying the truth would condemn those people and fighting would be suicidal (and also threatrn your charges)
So, what do you do?Dame question for raven black
If a lie would make me Fall in auch a situation then I certainly wouldn't want to be in that Game
So, reading into the champion a tiny bit because I know next to nothing about the class and its anathema (it's just not as cool as the fighter, bite me) I think in this case telling a lie to protect the innocents would be cause for need of an atonement ritual since lies seem to be the highest offense to Sarenrae.
But on the opposite end of the spectrum, since fighting outnumbered 1 to 20 is basically suicide then the "Don't let innocents be harmed by inaction" doesn't apply because of the "you are not forced to sacrifice your own life for it" clause, which would in my eyes mean that telling the truth and sending the refugees straight to torture would not be cause for falling and/or need of an atonement ritual.It is a shame, but like people like to say, good isn't always right and all that jazz. Great time for a new career path though.
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Consider how many innocent lives will be lost if it becomes known that a Champion of the goddess of Honesty will lie.
There is a reason Sarenrae has this anathema.
In my game, the lying Champion will fall. If they survive, this will open the way to great soul-searching and RP opportunities.
And I do not really understand why so many posters seem to think Sarenrae's servants become incapable of lying. They totally can. And it will have appropriate consequences.
That is free will in action.
So what if lying violates her edicts? Which one is more important?
Someone that will not violate their morals for the greater good is not good.
No innocents will die if they learn the Goddess of: Areas of Concern healing, honesty, redemption, and the sun is willing to lie to save lives. She was willing to sacrifice her existence to battle Rovagug. She certainly isn't going to punish her follower for lying to protect lives, especially if dealing with some evil scum that will murder innocents if they do not lie.
Sarenrae isn't some mindless goddess that requires followers to follow blindly her teachings if they violate her main edicts and desire to protect life.
This whole honesty above the protection of life is not in line with Sarenrae at all. I've made a lot of clerics and paladins of Sarenrae. First and foremost she is protector the living. She usually does this by crushing evil.
That would be the first option taken if put in a position where her follower had to protect life. The follower would likely tell the instigator straight up, "Try to harm this innocent and I will strike you down."
But if the follower were say venturing into an evil city to save a child and lying to the local Hellknight guard to protect the child that some devil wanted sacrifice, I'm not punishing the follower of Sarenrae for lying. Are you kidding me? The first priority of that follower of Sarenrae is the rescue of that child from peril and Sarenrae will support that task with her power and expect her follower to do what was necessary to carry it out including lying as long as that follower isn't engaging in random murder or something.
Sarenrae is above all an angel risen to a goddess and one of the powerful protectors of life and goodness in all of Golarion. If she's not willing to back her follower lying to save lives, then she might as well be some Lawful Neutral force of order with some absolute do not my break my edicts no matter what philosophy. She has never been that from anything I've read.
I honestly don't think it would occur to the paladin to lie, or even dissemble. Either stand back and let someone else do the talking, or stand up and tell the wicked king what you think of him, and roll for initiative. If the character I'm envisioning is comfortable biting his tongue and being silent in the face of evil, I probably wouldn't play him as a Champion of Sarenrae. Champions, in my opinion, should be naturally and boldly inclined to follow their deity's ideals. Falling shouldn't be impossible, but it should be uncommon circumstances. If you're trying to finesse your anathema, you're probably not in it properly.Lets get another Edge case
You are seperated by the group for reasons, you are alone with a group of innocents
You are asked about those people
You are outnumbered 20 to 1
Saying the truth would condemn those people and fighting would be suicidal (and also threatrn your charges)
So, what do you do?Dame question for raven black
If a lie would make me Fall in auch a situation then I certainly wouldn't want to be in that GameSo, reading into the champion a tiny bit because I know next to nothing about the class and its anathema (it's just not as cool as the fighter, bite me) I think in this case telling a lie to protect the innocents would be cause for need of an atonement ritual since lies seem to be the highest offense to Sarenrae.
But on the opposite end of the spectrum, since fighting outnumbered 1 to 20 is basically suicide then the "Don't let innocents be harmed by inaction" doesn't apply because of the "you are not forced to sacrifice your own life for it" clause, which would in my eyes mean that telling the truth and sending the refugees straight to torture would not be cause for falling and/or need of an atonement ritual.It is a shame, but like people like to say, good isn't always right and all that jazz. Great time for a new career path though.
Lying is not the highest offense to Sarenrae. Not sure why you think this.
The highest offense to Sarenrae is not opposing evil in all its forms in all the places it is found. Not allowing redemption.
Read the entirety of Sarenrae. Don't let someone on this forum make you think she is only the Goddess of Honesty. Honesty is one of her areas of concern and not her primary one in my opinion.
Sarenrae is The Dawnflower. These are her names:
The Dawnflower
The Cleansing Light
The Everlight
The Healing Light
The Healing Flame
Sister Cinder
Grandmother Grace
Do those names sound like her primary concern is Honesty?
Sarenrae is the hammer of wrath of on evil. She will give evil a chance to seek redemption and if they refuse, they die. Her followers heal and protect the decent living beings of the world. Honesty is one and I believe small aspect of her portfolio insofar as dealing with the church is generally honest.
But if followers of Sarenrae have to engage in warfare against evil in their lands using subterfuge, they will do it as wiping out evil and healing a sick land plagued by evil is her primary purpose.
maybe there's some text for PF1e that I missed or even some for 2e but Sarenrae's write up in LO gods & magic barely mentions lying, I can see that honesty is one of the four listed things she's goddess of after healing and before redemption and the sun and Lie is one of her anathemas but the only parts it's mentioned in the lost omens book is her followers aspire to emulate her through truthfulness (among other things), her moderate curse makes it so when you try to lie you instead blurt out truth and a sidebar that says sarenites swear by her to promise honesty because she is believed to curse those who lie after doing so, like there is a good amount of details in there and certainly none of it says she cares about honesty above all other things
I think that "Lying" is a high offense to Sarenrae because when I go and check her entry on AoN (Without reading all the lore admitedly, sorry) what i see is:
Edicts : destroy the Spawn of Rovagug, protect allies, provide aid to the sick and wounded, seek and allow redemption
Anathema : create undead, lie, deny a repentant creature an opportunity for redemption, fail to strike down evil
Areas of Concern : healing, honesty, redemption, and the sun
So, Lying is anathema and honesty is an area of concern, while Protection of innocents is neither an edict nor an area of concern (Protecting allies, yes, but I think counting the innocents as allies in this case is pushing it), nor is it anathema to let people be harmed.
So, lying to protect the innocents would be causes for atonement.
Telling the king to eat it and die while trying to defend the innocents would not be cause for atonement but probably a Resurection spell instead.
Telling the truth and getting the innocents killed would not be cause for atonement.
To be clear, if I were the GM I wouldn't play it that way mostly because I can't be assed to police how the champion works and I dislike the whole "Pay for the ritual or you can't play your class anymore" aspect. However, since this is not about how about I would rule it but how I think the problem would be solved, this is what I come up with.
Sarenrae is a godess of redemption, healing, light and honesty. Not a goddess of protection.
I think that "Lying" is a high offense to Sarenrae because when I go and check her entry on AoN (Without reading all the lore admitedly, sorry) what i see is:
Edicts : destroy the Spawn of Rovagug, protect allies, provide aid to the sick and wounded, seek and allow redemption
Anathema : create undead, lie, deny a repentant creature an opportunity for redemption, fail to strike down evil
Areas of Concern : healing, honesty, redemption, and the sunSo, Lying is anathema and honesty is an area of concern, while Protection of innocents is neither an edict nor an area of concern (Protecting allies, yes, but I think counting the innocents as allies in this case is pushing it), nor is it anathema to let people be harmed.
So, lying to protect the innocents would be causes for atonement.
Telling the king to eat it and die while trying to defend the innocents would not be cause for atonement but probably a Resurection spell instead.
Telling the truth and getting the innocents killed would not be cause for atonement.To be clear, if I were the GM I wouldn't play it that way mostly because I can't be assed to police how the champion works and I dislike the whole "Pay for the ritual or you can't play your class anymore" aspect. However, since this is not about how about I would rule it but how I think the problem would be solved, this is what I come up with.
Sarenrae is a godess of redemption, healing, light and honesty. Not a goddess of protection.
Sarenrae is a goddess that hunts down evil to protect those who cannot protect themselves and destroys evil they cannot redeem.
I've run Sarenrae for years. She is in lot of stuff. And the iconic cleric Kyra follows Sarenrae.
The Dawnflower fights evil to protect those that evil harms. She's not doing doing it just because. And honesty does not in anyway stand above opposing evil, which she does to protect others.
It should not have to an edict to protect the innocent or weak. She just does it, it's who she is. Those that follow her do the same.
I don't care if you don't want to call them innocent or what not, it's obvious that you are there to oppose evil. Why do you think she does that?
Sarenrae is one of the most protective goddesses in Golarion. Her followers are welcome in any decent community. They spend most of their time healing the sick and caring for others.
Even though alignment is going away, Sarenrae is the embodiment of goodness first in Golarion. Goodness above law. Goodness above chaos. If lying supports the greater good, then she will accept it.
That small list of Edicts and Anathema does not embody all that any god or goddess is about. Read who Sarenrae is and it is all very clear she is the most powerful force of pure goodness in Golarion. Any great evil that arises in Golarion, Sarenrae and Iomedae will be at the forefront of opposing them to protect everyone that may be harmed.
I'm not going to run Sarenrae placing honesty above worthy life with everything I know of Sarenrae. That just isn't happening when I DM.
A champion that performs an act that is anathema loses their powers.
The anathema of the deity come before the tenets and the cause.
Sarenrae's anathema specifically include lying, but not the protection of innocents and or bystanders.
That's all there is to it.
I am not saying that Sarenrae isn't a force of good, or that saving people isn't an act of good.What I am saying is that, according to Sarenrae's edicts and the code of conduct of champions, honesty is more important than saving the lives of the innocents in the case presented.
If the edict of a champion's god is "Absolutely no killing" and the champion in question kills someone, even to protect a hundred or a thousand people, it is still anathema, even if they and everyone around them thinks that they were in the right to do so.
The Paladin of a deity that does not have an anathema against lying could lie to prevent harm to innocents.
The Paladin of a deity that as such anathema (like Sarenrae does) cannot lie, even to prevent harm to innocents.
More precisely, they can lie, but then they fall.
Yeah, this is my interpretation as well.
Unfortunately Sarenrae's specific anathema creates as situation where not lying is more important (to her) than protecting innocents.
Of course, one need not lie depending on the situation. It simply may not get you out of the situation.
For example, if an evil king ask you where someone is because they intend to execute them, you can respond with some variation of "I'll never tell you". That's not a lie. Now, it will probably incite the king to attack you or detain you or something like that. Whereas the lie might have let you walk away. And might have misdirected the kings forces further from the innocents hiding place such that your silence might not give them as much time as your lie...but apparently that's how Sarenrae rolls.
Obviously the only proper way to play a champion of a deity of honesty would be to expose all the party's lies to anyone who suffered to hear those lies and alleviate your fellows' souls of their guilty consciences.
;P
Obviously the only proper way to play a champion of a deity of honesty would be to expose all the party's lies to anyone who suffered to hear those lies and alleviate your fellows' souls of their guilty consciences.
;P
I will now proceed to hunt down all the party member's parents to tell them about all the times they swore that they brushed their teeth when they in fact didn't.
In all seriousness though, I might slap the champion with the minor curse divine intercession if they weren't savvy enough to find a third option.
In any case, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.
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This Thread made me realize how absolutely annoying some 'RAW only' Rules lawyers could be with anathema
That's probably how we got the dawnflower cult in the first place
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This Thread made me realize how absolutely annoying some 'RAW only' Rules lawyers could be with anathema
That's probably how we got the dawnflower cult in the first place
I disagree.
In this case a deity values highly not lying.
In almost every situation it is likely that saying "I will not tell you" is a viable answer and there is no reason for a champion of Sarenrae to say otherwise.
Now, in some imaginary contrived situation in which the big bad evil guy has engineered holding a innocent hostage and telling the champion the only way to save this person is to lie, then okay. In that situation lying is a reasonable course of action and I would (as a GM) say that there is no problem with lying in this situation. But outside of some equally weird situation that is probably a trap by a GM, it's not going to be necessary to lie. If a Champion of Sarenrae really has a problem, lean on your party members to do the talking in moments that might require less honesty than you're capable of.
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If Sarenrae is supposedly so strict against lying that there is basically no reasonable allowances for lying, why would she be okay with an ally lying for you while you stand to the side, does this work with the other anathemas for you, if something happens to somehow require the creation of an undead during your adventure does just standing by and letting your party do it with what is essentially your consent also clear you of breaking the anathema, how about a quest where the target becomes truly repentant but the only way it'll be cleared is if that target is killed, is it okay for the champion of sarenrae to just step back and watch the rest of the party do the kill after all you personally aren't denying the opportunity for redemption for this person
Knowing everything we know about Sarenrae as well as what her creator has shared I really doubt that if you were legitimately lying to save a life and there was no other option, etc etc she wouldn't care.
Mechanically you might as well tell the lie. The text on Anathema says "If you perform enough acts...." acts plural. So as long as you are not doing these things repeatedly you're fine anyway.
If Sarenrae is supposedly so strict against lying that there is basically no reasonable allowances for lying, why would she be okay with an ally lying for you while you stand to the side, does this work with the other anathemas for you, if something happens to somehow require the creation of an undead during your adventure does just standing by and letting your party do it with what is essentially your consent also clear you of breaking the anathema, how about a quest where the target becomes truly repentant but the only way it'll be cleared is if that target is killed, is it okay for the champion of sarenrae to just step back and watch the rest of the party do the kill after all you personally aren't denying the opportunity for redemption for this person
I actually agree with you, but the problem is that it starts to infringe on what other player characters are allowed to do.
If a group collectively agrees that they expect the champion of Sarenrae to not allow those around them to lie, and that the champion is going to prevent/object to it if they are present I would be completely onboard. I think that's how the character should be played. But I wouldn't force my opinion on other players/groups. And the group shouldn't be forced to tell the champion to go look at the "fine and rustic architecture" every time the party wants to do something like lie.
Not sure why someone would think Saranrae doesn't emphasize protecting when her second edict says "protect", in this case allies which should include anyone under the Champion's charge.
(And arguably the third edict re: sick & wounded comes into play too if we're talking about refugees in risk of further harm.)
So yeah, the Champion kind of has to protect them too.
Without lying.
There. That's the mission's parameters.
(And as mentioned above, I think letting others lie on your behalf is kinda dicey. Plus there's a reasonable chance the inquirer will ask the armored fellow with the Saranrae emblem rather than the glib friend.)
For whatever divine/metaphysical/game mechanical/obsessive reason Saranrae deems lying (even for a good cause) a grievous offense, an imbalance that to our modern sensibilities seems abhorrent.* But we don't live in a magical world where concepts manifest tangible results (sometimes even manifest as sentient creatures). It might be the lie itself tainting the Champion, with Saranrae thinking, "Yep, fully understand, so I'm perfectly fine with you atoning to scrub that stain away so you can get your spiritual powers back." Like so many moral/metaphysical/cosmic conundrums re: Golarion, this goes into a level of detail beyond what's necessary for an RPG world designed for a broad swath of humans w/ varied worldviews.
Which means, as usual, the narrative takes priority and one's answer will depend on how one wishes to balance the influence/agency of deities vs. the cosmic laws they (and their Champions) must abide by vs. the agency and value of mortals in the broader cosmic scheme,and so forth.
It's a dire, unfortunate situation, and for some reason Saranrae explicitly considers lying anathema along the lines of a mortal sin. So if the Champion's caught between two mortal sins, they'll have to find a third option. It's only in the most contrived situation that a Champion wouldn't have other, non-suicidal options, including silence. While I can imagine a truly dastardly villain intentionally doing this that would represent a lot of info & control on their part, meaning such dilemmas are nearly universally in the GM's direct control. And good GMs (and authors of published scenarios) would IMO allow for alternate solutions. (Heck, I might even have them fall then have Saranrae Atone them for free later.)
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Consider how many innocent lives will be lost if it becomes known that a Champion of the goddess of Honesty will lie.
I think the actual GM call for "can you get away with this" is the case where the Champion of Sarenrae attempts to confuse and deceive the listener without ever saying a single thing that is false.