New GM running Box / Troubles / AV for family, logistics help request


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Thanks for taking the time to look at this (probably rambling) thread.

While we are long time veterans of nerdy board games, my family has never done the paper role playing game thing. I thought it would be a good "get us together around a table and have fun" creative thing to do and so have tried to vanquish my general cringing unease of the genre (I am a Nerd but haven't invested any more feats since I took the Jock dedication at Level 2) and successfully ran the beginner box on vacation a couple weeks back.

As I look forward to tying in Troubles and Guantlight I'm trying to figure out HOW to navigate the lack of periphery support for them, specifically I guess the lack of maps. (I am aware of the Otari flip mat, but as I'm only using the beach house part of that map it'd be a pricey buy, and I've already drawn it out pretty well on some flip tiles.) To emphasize: the whole point of this endeavor is to get us face to face around a table. I am aware that the whole hobby seems to have gone to screened VTT software, but having us sit around staring at laptops "together" is not really the point.

I've also seen the Abomination Vaults Terrain models, but my word do the contents look anemic for actual play. Has anyone successfully used those? There are no rounded shapes, there do not seem to be enough materials for the larger rooms, or dang, maybe even some of the modest ones.

I know we could "theater of mind" the whole thing, but my sons really enjoy the tactical skirmish aspect of the system.

I have a couple of printers (resin and PLA). Are there good files I'm not finding somewhere?

Am I missing an easy fix to the ACTUAL (not virtual) table top map aspect of the hobby? How do folks deal with this? Do you get one of those big (but not nearly big enough for a whole level) blank mats and draw everything as you go? Doesn't that take a long time and speed bump your session? Do you draw everything out on a whole level and then block it off with paper as they go? If so, don't you need multiple blank maps? Some of the AV floors are pretty huge. (And it took me a good couple hours to tape together and draw out just the beach house from Troubles...)

I talked to a couple of my large format printing shops in town and it looks like I could get some maps printed with PDFs I found on DriveThru, but that's going to be around $100 - $500 per level... and there's no way to really ensure those squares come out 1". I'm not made of money.

Anyway, if anyone has some advice I'd be very grateful.

Thanks!

Liberty's Edge

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When I play physically, we usually use 2 big blank maps and the GM draws on them when we enter an encounter-worthy place (easy : those are the ones which have maps in the adventure).

The GM usually draws only what the PCs see and adds more as we explore. And, as needed, erases the old place to make room for drawing the new one.

I know other GMs do the whole drawing beforehand and unveiling parts little by little. Whatever you prefer, I would say.


There are also the interlinking tiles that are also dry erase. It makes kind of a rolling map, just take off a row, erase it and put it on the other side.

My group has some of these that we like.
https://role4initiative.com/collections/dungeon-tiles


Oh, hadn't seen those Roll 4 Initiative tiles. I'll give those a look. Thanks!

Sovereign Court

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There is of course the good old flipover pad with 1" grid. In my experience they're typically just a little bigger than Paizo's flipmats, so I can usually fit stuff on them.

It's a bit more work but it's definitely cheaper than most other options. And because you're not using a single reusable map, you can prepare a lot of stuff ahead of time without having to erase stuff to make room.

A single roll used to go for about €10 for 50 pages here, probably similar elsewhere.


There is also Gaming Paper.

Edit: Although some time over the past few years shipping appears to have become cost prohibitive...


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I've always used wipeable flip maps, where you draw the map, and once you're done you wipe off the lines and can draw another.

Paizo has several
Regular size
Bigger Basic
Enormous Basic

And a pack with four different terrains
MultiPack
They also sell Flip Tiles, small map units that you can arrange and rearrange to fit your adventure.
Flip Tiles


I use one of the Paizo flip mats as well. At some point, I may get more of them, so I don't have to erase and redraw as much.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Another option is to extract the image from the PDF, then use posterazor which creates into A4 or letter size, print it normally then glue it together.


Posterazor? That sounds interesting. I have never ever had success trying to cut up a large format image, print on letter paper, and have it work. Has this software succeeded for you in the past? Is the 1x1 grid translated well?

Thanks for all your advice folks.

navajas

EDIT: Oh, keep forgetting to ask. Would that Dungeon Alchemy thing help with this? Can you print off maps you make as top down 2d or isometric images? Maybe combined with this Posterazor thing?

EDIT2: Hmm. Can't get Posterazor to open my .pdfs, either downloaded or browser based. I wonder if something happened while converting the .webp to .pdfs.


While on topic, does anyone have any soundtrack suggestions?


Yeah, that'd be nice too. After taking a flyer on the Syrinscape Beginner Box play I was surprised to see nothing at all for Troubles or Abomination. I have been planning on just hoping around to various D&D modules scavenging stuff.

Would definitely pay for a dedicated one though.

Dark Archive

One thing I've done in the past is use graph paper to draw out the whole dungeon and use a 1" square mat to draw out individual rooms, when the layout of the room becomes more relevant (ie: combat or searching, ect.)
You can use flash cards to block off unexplored parts of the graph paper map.

For dungeons that fit on the 1" mat, I've either drawn the whole thing out and blocked it by paper or drawn additional rooms as they get explored.
The former is more time efficient; the latter can build suspense.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
navajas wrote:

Posterazor? That sounds interesting. I have never ever had success trying to cut up a large format image, print on letter paper, and have it work. Has this software succeeded for you in the past? Is the 1x1 grid translated well?

Thanks for all your advice folks.

Hmm. Can't get Posterazor to open my .pdfs, either downloaded or browser based. I wonder if something happened while converting the .webp to .pdfs.

Sorry, missed a step, I normally right mouse click on the map image and copy image and save it in Paint, then use that image in Posterazor. To get the sizing right, just count how many squares in the grid, and times by 2.5 cms (or 1 inch, depending on what measurement system you have set).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You can draw out your entire map ahead of time and reveal it bit by bit, or you can just draw rooms if tactical positioning becomes relevant (ie, normally just combat encounters.)


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sanwah68 wrote:
navajas wrote:

Posterazor? That sounds interesting. I have never ever had success trying to cut up a large format image, print on letter paper, and have it work. Has this software succeeded for you in the past? Is the 1x1 grid translated well?

Thanks for all your advice folks.

Hmm. Can't get Posterazor to open my .pdfs, either downloaded or browser based. I wonder if something happened while converting the .webp to .pdfs.

Sorry, missed a step, I normally right mouse click on the map image and copy image and save it in Paint, then use that image in Posterazor. To get the sizing right, just count how many squares in the grid, and times by 2.5 cms (or 1 inch, depending on what measurement system you have set).

Coincidentally, I was just doing this very thing getting ready to GM at a local con.

One thing I would add to sanwah68's instructions: The process can be a little tricky if you don't have a printer capable of edge-to-edge printing (which I, sadly, do not). In which case you have to add a little bit of overlap to account for the non-printable area of the paper (which will vary according to your specific printer model). Happily, PosteRazor supports this.

I find it is helpful to do a "dry run" print of a single page in low-quality grey scale (or "draft" mode if your printer offers it) just to make sure I've gotten the sizing and margins right.


Wapping up character creation and maybe a bit of the beginner box on Friday. FINALLY. I've got postits all over the map I'm the beginner box, ready to go.


As for soundtracks, I do see that both Troubles in Otari and the Abomination Vaults are on the roadmap for 2023. I don't know what Syrinscape is like for reliability, but at least it is there.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I just ran my first session using a little mini projector pointed down at the table.

I know you don't like the idea of everyone staring at laptops around a table, so this might not be for you. I had that same inclination, which is why I am using Foundry, but having a central map on the table, and all die rolls are with physical dice, even though everyone's got a laptop. I guess alternatively, you could do the projector on the table, except you are the one controlling all the tokens (they tell you where you want to move), and you can even have physical pawns they move around, and then you match move the tokens.

I'm using a tiny projector (with a short throw) that I am mounting with a grabber thing to a chandelier above the table, and it has battery power so I don't need to run cables to it: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P8QYJ89

Only thing I'm not loving so far as that I can't have the room be overly bright or it just blows out the image. I suppose you could also get a small tv to set on the table and do the same thing.


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The little projector is a cool idea. Hmm. I wonder if you could get away with just projecting the map it self, maybe onto a poster board or butcher paper or something, and then plopping standees on it. You'd get some shadowing of course. I wonder how annoying that would be?

Aaaand... I still can't get Posterazor to open my .pdfs. Argh. :-/

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
navajas wrote:

The little projector is a cool idea. Hmm. I wonder if you could get away with just projecting the map it self, maybe onto a poster board or butcher paper or something, and then plopping standees on it. You'd get some shadowing of course. I wonder how annoying that would be?

Aaaand... I still can't get Posterazor to open my .pdfs. Argh. :-/

Posterazor doesn't like PDFs, you need to convert it to an image file, like a jpeg. Hence using Paint as the extra step.


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Nicholas.Foote wrote:

I just ran my first session using a little mini projector pointed down at the table.

...

Only thing I'm not loving so far as that I can't have the room be overly bright or it just blows out the image. I suppose you could also get a small tv to set on the table and do the same thing.

Having done both at one time or another, the TV route is definitely better (and nowadays, quite cost effective, even for larger screens).

A few suggestions if you go the TV route:

* You'll likely need to pick up an HDMI cable with a 90 degree angle at one end (or an 90 degree adapter).

* If you have a choice, you want a TV with a relatively flat back. That way you can use cheap rubber feet (for airflow) and just set it down on your table.

* Don't worry about paying extra for resolution -- and old 1080P TV should be fine at the sizes you need. I've even used a 32" 720P TV once, and it was a little pixelated if you got up close, but worked fine.

* Most importantly, don't spend a ton. TVs aren't designed to be left on their back, and it can be unhealthy for the screen over the long term. Best case scenario you grab one from someone who is upgrading for free/cheap.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My group has a 50in TV in a wooden case with see thru glass. We turn it on its side on a table. Open up the GM version of your VTT. Then run an HDMI from a player version of the VTT to the TV. Make the squares roughly 1in. Turn off line of sight.
Just use fog of war from your GM side.
Put your minis down on the table.

I love this because I can't draw for sh*t. So it lets me use digital maps and real minis, dice, etc.

Liberty's Edge

I was wondering how VTT could be used to improve actual tabletop games. Thanks all for sharing your experience.


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navajas wrote:
Am I missing an easy fix to the ACTUAL (not virtual) table top map aspect of the hobby? How do folks deal with this?

These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I use a 40" TV in my table on which I display maps at minis scale. It works wonderfully for my games. Here is a photo of my setup.

A nice thing about having a TV in the center of the table is I can play my Syrinscape music through it. The second TV behind my seat is on wheels and oriented vertically. I use this to display the initiative window from the Combat Manager app as well as show images to the players (NPCs, city-scale maps, etc.).

No one else uses a computer at the table, just me, so it doesn't feel like they're playing a VTT.


Sanwah: Oh my goodness. I just kept assuming you MEANT to use .pdfs. Will correct my eyes, brain and files, try again today.

Bugleyman, Ched, Fumarole: Holy cow. That all makes sense and we're due for a new TV later this year. Could just retire our current little 44' to a different duty. Hmm. I guess I'll see if this hobby sticks and maybe give that a try.

Fumarole: That is one sweet set up.


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Having my first session of this tonight! Character creation is mostly done, just some final touches and one player who isn't as communicative as I'd like.

We have...
A Catfolk rogue (thief) with Ruin Delver
A human wizard (universalist) with Bibliophile
A human paladin
A goblin ranger riding around on a monitor lizard
And a bomber alchemist of some kind.

We'll wrap up the character creation and get a bit of the beginner box under our belt.


Hello again, everyone.

turns out I have access to an old TV screen that I can probably tote around with no problem and lay on its back to make a portable map screen. It is a little smaller than the usual Paizo foldable maps, but it isn't like we use all of it at once anyway, right?

I wonder though, what is the best option for dynamic lighting/fog of war?

Specifically, I don't want to do a lot of work to make it go. Rolld20 and Fantasy Grounds both seem to have options for this, but if I go and buy their packs, would they have dynamic lighting already set up or would I have to go in and do it myself? Reading the pages for the products isn't helping me find that out right now.

Anybody have any experience with this?

EDIT: Aaaand, I found it. At least for Rolld20 the modules come with the lighting set up, but you have to have the subscription for the lighting to turn on.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The best option is going to be the Foundry modules. You'll need to buy them and buy Foundry, but Foundry's a one time fee, and the modules are *much* better. They have redone maps, lighting, and sounds. You can use the module Monk's Common Display to display what you want.


I guess my big thing is that my group is largely paperbound and the only thing I want this for is maps and lighting, not the character creator or dice rollers or anything, though dice rollers for me are fine since I'm increasingly rolling things out in the open aside from specifically secret rolls.

But I'll have to check out Foundry for that too, I just didn't see it as an option on the Paizo storefront for supported programs at the time, but there is is, right there ready to bite me.


Oh god, I already own it. ifeelsheepish.gif

Liberty's Edge

Lurker in Insomnia wrote:
Oh god, I already own it. ifeelsheepish.gif

If it helps, you almost certainly got it in one of the recent Humble Bundles, it's unlikely you specifically went out and bought it! :)


There is a module that will import characters from Pathbuilder! This is great for me because all the players that I set up on Pathbuilder and got on board with it all can keep doing it, all I need to do is import any updates into Foundry as necessary.

Shame it doesn't go both ways, but I'm still happy about it.

I'm having trouble getting the Monks Common Display to do one GM screen for me and one Players View for everyone else, but I'm sure that is just a matter of finding the right tutorial.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lurker in Insomnia wrote:

There is a module that will import characters from Pathbuilder! This is great for me because all the players that I set up on Pathbuilder and got on board with it all can keep doing it, all I need to do is import any updates into Foundry as necessary.

Shame it doesn't go both ways, but I'm still happy about it.

I'm having trouble getting the Monks Common Display to do one GM screen for me and one Players View for everyone else, but I'm sure that is just a matter of finding the right tutorial.

Did they update that Pathbuilder module to work with the latest version of Foundry? Last I checked that module wasn't being kept up to date and I had given up on it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I know I'm investing in a camera tripod and a 1080p projector for my home game. You can get the whole setup for under $150 and use it for all your maps at the table. Can't say it will work for everyone but it ought to make running APs easier at home for me.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Did they update that Pathbuilder module to work with the latest version of Foundry? Last I checked that module wasn't being kept up to date and I had given up on it.

I installed the most recent version of Foundry yesterday and it seemed to work fine! I have no idea of the previous versions, but I'm pleased so far.


NerdOver9000 wrote:
I know I'm investing in a camera tripod and a 1080p projector for my home game. You can get the whole setup for under $150 and use it for all your maps at the table. Can't say it will work for everyone but it ought to make running APs easier at home for me.

I'm interested in that option as well, but... where do you put the tripod?

Where we game for AV, the host has a nice big table, but over it is a chandelier, three lights in a row. There doesn't seem to be a place to attach something like a projector, but a tripod also doesn't seem like it would go anyplace.

Silver Crusade

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Lurker in Insomnia wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Did they update that Pathbuilder module to work with the latest version of Foundry? Last I checked that module wasn't being kept up to date and I had given up on it.
I installed the most recent version of Foundry yesterday and it seemed to work fine! I have no idea of the previous versions, but I'm pleased so far.

Be careful because some things on importers are not going to import properly. Double check the sheets to make sure they look right.


Cori Marie wrote:
Be careful because some things on importers are not going to import properly. Double check the sheets to make sure they look right.

Thank you for the reminder. I did do just that and they all look fine. Really though, so long as they had the AC right that is all I really care about. The players are going to run their PCs off of Pathbuilder directly as well as some of them with character sheets so the only thing Foundry will be doing is rolling attacks and damage against PCs and doing the ambient sounds, which are a lovely surprise!

Turns out Syrinscape isn't going to be doing AV or Trouble in Otari anytime soon after all, so having that on hand is going to be great.

Grand Lodge

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Lurker in Insomnia wrote:
NerdOver9000 wrote:
I know I'm investing in a camera tripod and a 1080p projector for my home game. You can get the whole setup for under $150 and use it for all your maps at the table. Can't say it will work for everyone but it ought to make running APs easier at home for me.

I'm interested in that option as well, but... where do you put the tripod?

Where we game for AV, the host has a nice big table, but over it is a chandelier, three lights in a row. There doesn't seem to be a place to attach something like a projector, but a tripod also doesn't seem like it would go anyplace.

I've seen successful setups that are directly beside the table, about 4' above the table top, and pointed down at the table. With keystone correction built into most projectors it seems to work well.

The chandeliers might be a problem, depending on how it's built. The projector doesn't take much space, but there does need to be some space above and directly beside the table for it to work.

For what it's worth, I stole the idea from a fellow local GM and haven't used it myself, but I thought his setup was really slick. He just removed one of the player chairs from the table and put the projector where the player would have been sitting. I haven't gotten my projector in yet, so I don't have experience setting it up.


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I do see some clamp mounts for cameras that I hadn't considered and I'd really rather have something more portable than a monitor to carry around.

Gives me something to think about for sure!


The beta of Pathbuilder Encounters worked out very well last sesson. It was our first time using it and it worked out great keeping me in check for initiative and tracking HP worked well too.

One of my players though...

"That was a crit, sorry. You take 20 damage."
"Says here I have 24."
"What?"
"Says here I have 24 HP, no damage."
".... *applies damage on my side*"
"That's better!"

"Aaand, that strike was for four damage."
"If that was the case, I'd be down and dying, but I still see 4 HP."
"omg... *applies damage on my side* NOW you are dying, happy?"
"Yes, thank you!"

Bunch of dorks, they are. ;)


Our host found a projector that we might be able to use to lay down the map, so it looks like I'll have a learning curve ahead of me!


Oh my gods, PULL TO SCENE.

That is why I am banging my head against a wall to get the map to show right on the Player View, the player wasn't IN THE SCENE.

Okay, it is better now and way WAY more promising!

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