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D8 non-deadly is more than a die size lower than what a monk can do. I don’t see a lot of fighters going the flurry route or even building towards ir
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To flurry, a fighter is either not using heavy armor or is no where near this damage die.The APG stances largely lack the "not wearing armor" clause. So you could be in, say, Gorilla Stance in full plate and flurry. It's a d8 attack, but 1d8 B forceful, grapple, backswing attack is pretty good given how rare the grapple trait is.
TBH, Reach and going from d8 to d10 is IMO far better than Grapple as soon as you have AoO.
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A lot of people sleep on dragon stance because it is hard to have a good AC at low levels but it is really good damage and doesn’t stop you from making agile follow up attacks if you hit with your first attack.
A monk can have a D10 weapon with deadly d10, backswing and reach that uses 0 hands by the end game with offensive feat selection. They need to be in 1 stance to do this, but can still use reaction based attacks if they have them with this.
To flurry, a fighter is either not using heavy armor or is no where near this damage die.
That D10 doesn't really count because it is not agile and a monk can be doing up to 5 attacks in a round.
D8 Agile is about the best that you can do and it is available fully armoured via archetype as well.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dragon Roar is in a tricky place since Dragon Monks already want Str (because dragon tail attacks are not finesse) and everybody wants Dex,Wis,Con for "staying alive" purposes. So where do you find room for meaningful Charisma?
...What exactly would the fighter do to improve its damage after picking up flurry that monk wouldn't also have, because monk just has everything the fighter has for damage at that point to my knowledge, along with its bonus to ac, movement and better saves.I could care LESS about the math and "balance" of it honestly, to me, it's the image and principal of the matter, it makes NO SENSE.
Also, if we want to consider balance, even then, I'd like to see one of the resident super-nerd spreadsheet gamers take a whack at this, if anyone happens to know how to rouse Mathmuse into taking a shallow dive that'd be awesome.
What exactly WOULD a Monk with pound-for-pound Unarmed Attack Prof Scaling with the Fighter look like from a purely whiteboard DPR, crit chance, and overall all damage perspective look like? I'd be willing to bet that it STILL falls behind the Fighter at basically every conceivable level so long as the Fighter isn't taking the absolute worst possible options at their disposal.
The monk has one better save. But the fighter gets Bravery which in play is as good as a Legendary save with improved evasion given how often the Frightened condition comes up.
I will once again state that the Legendary Unarmmored Defense proficiency nets you 1 more AC than the fighter without Armor Specialization because Heavy Armor provides plus 6 to AC versus the monk reaching 5 AC from items.
The fighter's damage enhancer ability is reaction attacks aka Attack of Opportunity. They have feats that other classes do not have access to that allows them to improve their ability to use reaction attacks along with feats that set up these reaction attacks like Knockdown or Disruption Stance. This allows them to improve the number of situations where a reaction attack is triggered.
Reaction attacks are MAPless and with a fighter using a higher damage die
Do you mean stays on the ground taking the -2 to hit and and AC against everyone?
Every fighter I've built has been a knockdown fighter, usually with a maul. The maul knockdown fighter is absolutely brutal. Deals crazy damage. I thought the Giant Barbarian dealt insane damage until the I played a Maul Fighter. The giant barbarian can get some nasty crits, but a Maul fighter is nutty with its reaction attacks and knocking things down.
The monk never gets Combat Reflexes or any feat like it. Combat Reflexes improves on Attack of Opportunity. It creates more situations for fighters to use reaction attacks.
Attack of Opportunity combined with Trip forces a lot of bad choices for enemies that fighters can take amazing advantage of to spike their damage.
Monks do not have this option. Monks do clearly less damage, substantially so as the levels rise.
For the first striking rune, you're not too far off like everyone else. But by Greater Striking and more dice of sneak attack, more rage damage, more Reaction attacks at level 10 and the monk falls far behind on damage.
It would be nice to play a viable damage dealing monk rather than forcing the monk into only a few viable build options, primarily a trip or grapple guy.
I would take a boost to Flurry of Blows instead of Legendary Unarmed Proficiency, something to boost whatever is supposed to be the monk's damage boosting ability that can't be easily stolen by another class using the Monk archetype.
At least Legendary Unarmed Attack can't be taken by another class with the archetype. When you can take most of the good parts from the monk as part of their archetype, it makes the class less attractive.
Right now you could make a better unarmed strike fighter getting Flurry of Blows at level 10 than you can make a monk.
The monk can pick up Attack of Opportunity, but not improve on it with Combat Reflexes or the level 20 feat the fighter gets. While Flurry of Blows stays static after you get it for 20 levels.
Dragon Roar is in a tricky place since Dragon Monks already want Str (because dragon tail attacks are not finesse) and everybody wants Dex,Wis,Con for "staying alive" purposes. So where do you find room for meaningful Charisma?
You can't. I tried.
Monk needs Str, Dex, Con to survive well. You also want a decent wisdom for will saves and perception. Almost impossible to focus much on charisma.
Monk needs strength for a Dragon Style build.
Monk needs Dex for AC for any non-Mountain Style Build including Dragon Style. They don't have heavy armor with Bulwark like a fighter, so can't meet minimum AC requirements without Dex for most of their builds.
You obviously need Con for hit points and Fort saves or you get jacked since you are primarily a melee martial.
A lot of people sleep on dragon stance because it is hard to have a good AC at low levels but it is really good damage and doesn’t stop you from making agile follow up attacks if you hit with your first attack.
So you would recommend weakening your damage by making a d10 attack on your first attack then a d6 attack on subsequent attacks?
Sorry, that is weakening your damage, not sleeping on some good combination.
The best monk stance for damage is Wolf Stance. Not dragon and not some other stance, but Wolf. Wolf has a good combat feat progression with the guaranteed trip. It is Finesse and Agile and works well with rogue Archetype with sneak attack mixed with trip and Stand Still. You don't need to pick up AoO if you're relying on movement actions to trigger Stand Still, so you don't need a fighter MC.
If the Thief's Dexterity to damage ability worked with unarmed strikes, you would see a ton more Rogue Monk MCs with Wolf style.
Any style that uses non-agile attacks as a monk with flurry of blows is a net negative because d10 is insufficiently greater damage to d8s without agile with a worse feat progression.
Tank monk doesn't matter quite as much since tank monk takes a shield and relies on AC boosting from styles. I prefer Rain of Embers stance if your DM allows it, but some people use shield and Mountain Style stance possibly mixed with Drake elixirs for the AC bonus at later levels for tough fights. Tank monk usually picks up Champion MC to obtain Champion's Reaction.
Both monks rely on maneuver control with trip, so you'll likely pick that up with either build option.
The monk is a good class. It's not bad in a group. I think it could use something you can't take like a Legendary Unarmed Proficiency or some improvement to Flurry of Blows that another class can't take or a feat chain that improves Flurry of Blows.
It kind of sucks at later levels when druids are taking your Flurry of Blows, every martial class's damage is improving, and your legendary mobility is taken by the 1st level fleet spell and your Flurry of Blows is the same as it was at level 1 as it is at level 20 with no improvement.
Your AC is 1 better than a heavy armor wearer with Master proficiency without the ability to wear armor runes that heavy armor can or special material armor or any type of super cool special armor. Usually you just have Bracers of Armor because Cloth Armor can get wrecked by Corrosive Rune crits.
I can't tell you how irritated I was when I invested in building up good robes/Explorer's Clothing with runes and Mr. DM hit me with a Corrosive Rune crit while having Cloth hardness and hit points. Oh boy was that irritating. All my runes useless. We weren't even sure if the runes were destroyed or just the cloth armor the runes were on. Fortunately the DM had mercy and let me recover the runes and put it on other clothing when I was able to obtain some.
Metal armor laughs at corrosive runes unless of course we learn Hardness only works against physical damage as Shield Block implies. I guess Paizo will clarify hardness at some point to let us know.
I have not used anything but Bracers since that occurred. I'm not having surprise corrosive runes wreck my AC across all levels.
Starting with a 14 Dex and boosting it 20 by the games end is good enough. Use your mobility and don't stand around making 5 attacks a round only to get mauled at the end of your turn. Good movement is often action denial.
I have a STR+CHA Monk who is also a sorcerer MC. Spells that help defend you don't usually require much in the way of spell attack rolls or saving throw DCs, but as a Monk, you are ahead of the game with your spell casting proficiency for a MC character.
A lot depends on your party composition but a good champion loves a slightly squishy but resilient monk in the party, and if attacking your monk requires 2 move actions compared to one to attack the party tank, then sticking and moving can usually work.
I might not have the time tonight to run the math, but I will try to come back sometime this week to show that when making 3 attacks a round (because if a class is counting mobility as a dedicated strength, you can't be standing still and just attacking), a D10 with backswing and agile D6 attacks is better than D8 agile.
Edit: Dragon's Roar. Again it is party dependent, but adjacent enemies don't have to be frightened by you for it to be very useful. And stand still works against step.
I think to really understand the monk class and what a very powerful monk is supposed to do you have to look at the high level feats. The monk gets so many high level proficency boosts to saves and defense and spell casting that their budget for career defining feats feels a little underwhelming, which is why they make such incredible chassis for MC casters. They have a bunch of feats that just move targets around and a bunch of Ki spells, and the mobility and defensive stuff.
It is kinda like the damage and attack math of PF2 is so tightly locked in from level 1 choices that pretty much every class goes sideways instead of up with focusing on offense. I think that is why flurry of blows as a MC feat sticks out so much, although it really only benefits fighters and requires the fighter be focusing on unarmed attacks to really be that big a boost.
This is kind of my point in the first post.
I feel the power budget is extremely focused on Stances, so why not make a Fun Stance Class with all the frills that would imply, including dancing stances?
You already have one of the big tools a Stance Dancing Class would want, FoB.
And making the chassis meatier is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Making classes too streamlined like the Monk and the Fighter reduce design space.
I think Swashbuckler, and not Fighter, is the future of Pathfinder 2E.
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I think PF2 has room for both.
Like you can say the fighter is extremely streamlined, but that also makes it extremely flexible. It's one of the most functional classes out of the box and a lot of room to archetype out of or customize your playstyle. The monk too, tbh. While there are some design issues I dislike with the Monk and it can sometimes feel weak, there's just a lot of stuff you can get away with playing one that you can't with more 'modern' classes.
Swashbuckler has a lot more internal components and moving parts, it's a much more engineered class with a clearer gameplay and more complex playstyle... but the tradeoff there is that it's basically already at its limit as soon as you start playing one. It's suffocating on its own gameplay loop. There's a much higher pressure to make the correct build choices and the correct tactical choices in combat, and most of the class' variety comes down to which pre-engineered class path you're picking rather individual customizations.
Here is my math:
D10 with back swing and D6 Agile
Vs D8 agile
1st +7 vs (AC 16 / AC 19)
10: .5x5.5+.1x11 = 2.75+1.1 = 3.85 (attack 1)
10a: .3x5.5+.05x11 = 1.65+.55 = 2.2 (attack 2 after hit)
10b. .35x5.5+.05x11 = 1.925+.55 = 2.475 (attack 2 after miss)
10ac. .05x5.5+.05x11= .275+.55 = .0825 (attack 3 after 2 hits)
10bc. .1x5.5+.05x11= .55+.55 = 1.1 (attack 3 after 1miss on first 2 attacks)
6b. .35x3.5+.05x7 = 1.225+.35= 1.575 (as attack 2) - hit or miss doesn’t matter
6c. .15x3.5+.05x7= .525+.35 = 0.875 (as attack 3) - hit or miss doesn’t matter
8: .5X4.5+.1x9 = 2.25+.9= 3.15 (attack 1)
8b: .35X4.5+.05x9 = 1.57+.45= 2.025 (attack 2)
8c: .15x4.5+.05x9 = .675+.45 = 1.125 (attack 3)
.7 difference on first attack
Difference on 3rd attack of .025
Need 3 3rd attacks for D8 to be better than D10 with backswing and D6 agile as third attack.
Here is my math to show that under normal circumstances, you have to make 3 3rd attacks for a D8 agile to be better than a D10 with backswing and having a D6 agile back up for 3rd attacks. Accuracy will change that number of extra attacks pretty quickly, but I was surprised to learn that it is best to make a second attack with the D10 even if you hit on the first attack. More ranges of accuracy are needed to see where the D8 comes out ahead (probably when it is harder to hit all around), but the D10 is also probably starting off with 1 extra damage bonus from STR that will bounce in and out, but will matter half the levels (assuming the D8 agile is a finesse build. If both are strength, that won’t really matter.
Long story short, backswing is underrated.
One point I see brought up is the extra AC fighters can get from heavy armor, however MC monk requires both a 14 str and 14 dex. If one were to wear heavy armor that 14 dex seems a waste of stat allotment. Plus one would be locked into just a couple of stances. A fighter that is unarmored to qualify for wolf/tiger/ect would be in a much worse place for AC. Plus Metal Strikes isn't nothing. Stance Savant is also something a fighter can't get.
but how does one get a D8 agile attack with armor? I don't think you can.
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Stumbling Stance
stance savant is also a fighter feat.
Ah so it is. Though 2 levels later.
Stumbling Stance
Thanks. I’ll try to look at the level 20 math on a fighter with stumbling stance, Flurry and their high level feats vs a monk with their high level feats sometime this week. It’s a lot of moving pieces, and I’m very skeptical it will be even that comparable damage-wise to a fighter with a maul. The free hand is nice, and I’m guessing you go a shield route to maximize defenses but deception on a str/dex fighter build is probably a sunk skill on a 10 INT, 10 CON character who doesn’t have a lot of skills to throw away. I am just not seeing how a fighter getting flurry of blows at level 10 is a better character overall than just a monk, so I don’t really see its poachability being that great. Maybe for an animal Barbarian or maybe a wild shape Druid it is a better deal. The Barbarian is probably only wasting an almost useless dedication feat for it, but isn’t really looking for damage out of stances. The Druid is going to have to work to get the attributes lined up, but doesn’t suffer much from just having a 14 dex and 14 STR.
It just isn’t surprising to me that I don’t see nearly as many monk archetypes as fighter, champion, rogue, or even Thaumaturge archetypes.
Stumbling StanceThanks. I’ll try to look at the level 20 math on a fighter with stumbling stance, Flurry and their high level feats vs a monk with their high level feats sometime this week. It’s a lot of moving pieces, and I’m very skeptical it will be even that comparable damage-wise to a fighter with a maul. The free hand is nice, and I’m guessing you go a shield route to maximize defenses but deception on a str/dex fighter build is probably a sunk skill on a 10 INT, 10 CON character who doesn’t have a lot of skills to throw away. I am just not seeing how a fighter getting flurry of blows at level 10 is a better character overall than just a monk, so I don’t really see its poachability being that great. Maybe for an animal Barbarian or maybe a wild shape Druid it is a better deal. The Barbarian is probably only wasting an almost useless dedication feat for it, but isn’t really looking for damage out of stances. The Druid is going to have to work to get the attributes lined up, but doesn’t suffer much from just having a 14 dex and 14 STR.
Don't forget Agile Grace at level 10.
What you end up with adding in a +2 for the quickened fighter is 5 attacks at +2, -1, -4, -4, -4. Which compared to the quickened monk who is +0, -4, -8, -8, -8. Both with agile attacks.For the monk Diamond Fists and Deadly Strikes do come into it.
For the fighter also get 2 extra points from weapon mastery, Savage Critical, Certain Strike, and some low level options that the monk could pick up if they wanted.
Yes backswing is nice. There is no decent backswing agile option.
What did I miss? Do the maths if you like but I am going to just call it. In a silly stand up slug fest the fighter/martial artist/monk crushes the monk in unarmed from about level 10.
For more hilarity add a level 17 Bestial Mutagen
It just isn’t surprising to me that I don’t see nearly as many monk archetypes as fighter, champion, rogue, or even Thaumaturge archetypes.
I see a few. A lot of people are attracted to the extra attack per turn.
The problem if you call this a problem would go away if a few more key feats that the fighter has required weapons and weren't open to unarmed attacks.
...What exactly would the fighter do to improve its damage after picking up flurry that monk wouldn't also have, because monk just has everything the fighter has for damage at that point to my knowledge, along with its bonus to ac, movement and better saves.I could care LESS about the math and "balance" of it honestly, to me, it's the image and principal of the matter, it makes NO SENSE.
Also, if we want to consider balance, even then, I'd like to see one of the resident super-nerd spreadsheet gamers take a whack at this, if anyone happens to know how to rouse Mathmuse into taking a shallow dive that'd be awesome.
What exactly WOULD a Monk with pound-for-pound Unarmed Attack Prof Scaling with the Fighter look like from a purely whiteboard DPR, crit chance, and overall all damage perspective look like? I'd be willing to bet that it STILL falls behind the Fighter at basically every conceivable level so long as the Fighter isn't taking the absolute worst possible options at their disposal.
The monk has one better save. But the fighter gets Bravery which in play is as good as a Legendary save with improved evasion given how often the Frightened condition comes up.
I will once again state that the Legendary Unarmmored Defense proficiency nets you 1 more AC than the fighter without Armor Specialization because Heavy Armor provides plus 6 to AC versus the monk reaching 5 AC from items.
The fighter's damage enhancer ability is reaction attacks aka Attack of Opportunity. They have feats that other classes do not have access to that allows them to improve their ability to use reaction attacks along with feats that set up these reaction attacks like Knockdown or Disruption Stance. This allows them to improve the number of situations where a reaction attack is triggered.
Reaction attacks
They are damage tools. They either increase your own damage substantially or increase party damage. Either way, they are damage boosters.
I have tracked damage extensively. The fighter is number one because of its accuracy and reaction attacks. If the fighter lost either one of those, its damage would be lower.
Reaction based attack damage is part of the fighter's damage equation.
This idea that a creature would forego triggering reaction attacks to take -2 to attacks against whatever is close to them and the flat-footed condition against all other attacks lead to an easy calculation that it is still better to stand up.
Here is my math:
D10 with back swing and D6 Agile
Vs D8 agile
1st +7 vs (AC 16 / AC 19)
10: .5x5.5+.1x11 = 2.75+1.1 = 3.85 (attack 1)
10a: .3x5.5+.05x11 = 1.65+.55 = 2.2 (attack 2 after hit)
10b. .35x5.5+.05x11 = 1.925+.55 = 2.475 (attack 2 after miss)
10ac. .05x5.5+.05x11= .275+.55 = .0825 (attack 3 after 2 hits)
10bc. .1x5.5+.05x11= .55+.55 = 1.1 (attack 3 after 1miss on first 2 attacks)
6b. .35x3.5+.05x7 = 1.225+.35= 1.575 (as attack 2) - hit or miss doesn’t matter
6c. .15x3.5+.05x7= .525+.35 = 0.875 (as attack 3) - hit or miss doesn’t matter8: .5X4.5+.1x9 = 2.25+.9= 3.15 (attack 1)
8b: .35X4.5+.05x9 = 1.57+.45= 2.025 (attack 2)
8c: .15x4.5+.05x9 = .675+.45 = 1.125 (attack 3).7 difference on first attack
Difference on 3rd attack of .025
Need 3 3rd attacks for D8 to be better than D10 with backswing and D6 agile as third attack.Here is my math to show that under normal circumstances, you have to make 3 3rd attacks for a D8 agile to be better than a D10 with backswing and having a D6 agile back up for 3rd attacks. Accuracy will change that number of extra attacks pretty quickly, but I was surprised to learn that it is best to make a second attack with the D10 even if you hit on the first attack. More ranges of accuracy are needed to see where the D8 comes out ahead (probably when it is harder to hit all around), but the D10 is also probably starting off with 1 extra damage bonus from STR that will bounce in and out, but will matter half the levels (assuming the D8 agile is a finesse build. If both are strength, that won’t really matter.
Long story short, backswing is underrated.
This is not how it works.
When you build a Wolf Style monk you are focusing on knocking a creature down and adding on the Rogue Archetype to grain Sneak Attack with Backstabber. It doesn't matter if you knock the creature down or some other martial.
The extra D6 sneak attack damage makes up for the smaller die along with backstabber.
You can also pick up at 12th level Gang Up and at 16th level Opportune Backstab to further take advantage of reaction based attacks.
You have to think out the builds in their entirety and the Dragon Style build with the d10 looks good on paper, but in play operates with lower damage efficiency than Wolf Stance across levels.
Backswing is not a great ability because third attacks are never great and often not taken due other higher value actions being used.
White room math based on overall damage is the wrong way to rate damage builds. That is not how combat works. Combat works in finite time periods of 3 to 5 rounds against different enemies on different battlefields with different abilities.
That's why your best bet for finding damage is recording it as battles occur across levels. Then you start seeing little problems with the white room math as battles show you how something works and holes in the math depending on the build options available.
Dragon Style is a very limited build that doesn't provide much bang for the buck even with the higher damage dice. Sometimes it shines if you get a nice critical hit, but Wolf Style builds will start to shine as you get higher level and combine it with reaction attacks and other build options.
I am curious about monk with agile grace and diamond fists. I don't imagine it out damaging the fighter when they are just doing 5 slaps a turn and even then it's available for a...Stumbling StanceThanks. I’ll try to look at the level 20 math on a fighter with stumbling stance, Flurry and their high level feats vs a monk with their high level feats sometime this week. It’s a lot of moving pieces, and I’m very skeptical it will be even that comparable damage-wise to a fighter with a maul. The free hand is nice, and I’m guessing you go a shield route to maximize defenses but deception on a str/dex fighter build is probably a sunk skill on a 10 INT, 10 CON character who doesn’t have a lot of skills to throw away. I am just not seeing how a fighter getting flurry of blows at level 10 is a better character overall than just a monk, so I don’t really see its poachability being that great. Maybe for an animal Barbarian or maybe a wild shape Druid it is a better deal. The Barbarian is probably only wasting an almost useless dedication feat for it, but isn’t really looking for damage out of stances. The Druid is going to have to work to get the attributes lined up, but doesn’t suffer much from just having a 14 dex and 14 STR.Don't forget Agile Grace at level 10.
What you end up with adding in a +2 for the quickened fighter is 5 attacks at +2, -1, -4, -4, -4. Which compared to the quickened monk who is +0, -4, -8, -8, -8. Both with agile attacks.For the monk Diamond Fists and Deadly Strikes do come into it.
For the fighter also get 2 extra points from weapon mastery, Savage Critical, Certain Strike, and some low level options that the monk could pick up if they wanted.
Yes backswing is nice. There is no decent backswing agile option.
What did I miss? Do the maths if you like but I am going to just call it. In a silly stand up slug fest the fighter/martial artist/monk crushes the monk in unarmed from about level 10.
How would a monk get Agile Grace? Best you can do with Archetypes is half-level feats. Agile Grace would take your level 20 monk feat to obtain it via Fighter MC.
Are you asking if a dual class monk?
Has anyone tried Reflective Ripple Stance? That stance looks like it could be brutal. It is a newer stance, so I haven't had a chance to try it.
...I am curious about monk with agile grace and diamond fists. I don't imagine it out damaging the fighter when they are justStumbling StanceThanks. I’ll try to look at the level 20 math on a fighter with stumbling stance, Flurry and their high level feats vs a monk with their high level feats sometime this week. It’s a lot of moving pieces, and I’m very skeptical it will be even that comparable damage-wise to a fighter with a maul. The free hand is nice, and I’m guessing you go a shield route to maximize defenses but deception on a str/dex fighter build is probably a sunk skill on a 10 INT, 10 CON character who doesn’t have a lot of skills to throw away. I am just not seeing how a fighter getting flurry of blows at level 10 is a better character overall than just a monk, so I don’t really see its poachability being that great. Maybe for an animal Barbarian or maybe a wild shape Druid it is a better deal. The Barbarian is probably only wasting an almost useless dedication feat for it, but isn’t really looking for damage out of stances. The Druid is going to have to work to get the attributes lined up, but doesn’t suffer much from just having a 14 dex and 14 STR.Don't forget Agile Grace at level 10.
What you end up with adding in a +2 for the quickened fighter is 5 attacks at +2, -1, -4, -4, -4. Which compared to the quickened monk who is +0, -4, -8, -8, -8. Both with agile attacks.For the monk Diamond Fists and Deadly Strikes do come into it.
For the fighter also get 2 extra points from weapon mastery, Savage Critical, Certain Strike, and some low level options that the monk could pick up if they wanted.
Yes backswing is nice. There is no decent backswing agile option.
What did I miss? Do the maths if you like but I am going to just call it. In a silly stand up slug fest the fighter/martial artist/monk crushes the monk in unarmed from about level 10.
Ah.
No one would take that feat at level 20, but I guess someone can test it for the hell of it.
Monk has access to a very good reaction attack. Stand Still. It is different than AoO, and isn’t great against casters, but it works against people trying to step away. dragon’s roar is clearly designed with stand still in mind. +4 damage can be better than MC sneak attack, especially since the damage is not precision. I don’t know if it is 100% worth playing the stand still tank monk to get that extra damage, but at least it requires a frightened enemy so when you want to keep them close you’ve got an extra +1 to attack accuracy and defense.
I am playing a mobile, hit and run dragon stance monk. I am not speaking about white room antics. I haven’t seen the build in action past level 11 yet, and I don’t have stand still because it is not a free archetype game. Mine is a sorcerer who uses defensive and utility magic. They were not built for raw tanking and attacking as often as possible. They do use dragon’s roar. I didn’t realize how effective taking a second attack with dragon’s lash even after a hit was. I usually switch to regular unarmed strikes after I hit, but I am often using dragon claws to do extra fire damage (It is a naturey campaign with a lot of plants). Being very fast and getting 2 attacks in before moving 2 move actions worth of movement away for the enemy has worked out well. When they move up on me is when I either dragon roar or get my third attack, sometimes both if they are looking wobbly.
Prone locking is a power house strategy in PF2 currently, but a major nerf hammer is coming to hammers and flails if they are adding a saving throw based upon class DC. It is just not going to work to put higher level creatures on their backs as reliably. Class DCs are not terrible, but it will be less reliable than making trip attacks. Improved knock down will be pretty essential on maul builds instead of sometime superfluous. It is a good thing creatures aren’t built like PCs and don’t generally have skill feats or else I’d bet a lot of them at higher levels would end up with Kip up, if it also nimble crawl.
The high level math gets complex. Assuming hasted is something I can add to the calculation and we can also assume 5 attacks, but probably not every round. Even so I will try to look at it all. It is not D8 vs D10 at higher level though. It is D10 deadly(D10) with backswing. If either the fighter or the monk are making reaction attacks in that round the D10 gets a very nice boost. The fighter might be making 2 but I will build both without free archetype, if only because it is half as many feats to sort. Maybe if someone else posts the fighter with feats chosen I will use that build instead of making my own.
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Monk has access to a very good reaction attack. Stand Still. It is different than AoO, and isn’t great against casters, but it works against people trying to step away.
It is worse in that it doesn't trigger on manipulate actions just moves. It is different in that on a critical it disrupts moves not manipulate actions. IMHO it is not as good unless you are playing PF2 in a very tactical way regarding movement. Which is what you are saying....
I am playing a mobile, hit and run dragon stance monk. I am not speaking about white room antics.
Well In this instance I am just making a white room numbers argument. Yes there are all sorts of things you can do in terms of grappling, tripping, other skills and spells. It is just that it is hard to compare like with like in a system like PF2 which has deliberately injected differences all over the place. The straight slug it out comparison is one of the few that we can do. Mostly it is a reaction to the odd statement made by the designer that the Monk is a better unarmed combatant that the Fighter. It is not generally true, and is actually false in a simple damage comparison for many level ranges.
I haven’t seen the build in action past level 11 yet, and I don’t have stand still because it is not a free archetype game.
That is Ok I have full faith in the power of maths to work it out. Plus in that of other posters to pull me up if I make a mistake.
Mine is a sorcerer who uses defensive and utility magic. They were not built for raw tanking and attacking as often as possible.
I don't disagree with you that that is a more enjoyable way to play the game. I diversify the builds I play a lot.
Prone locking is a power house strategy in PF2 currently, but a major nerf hammer is coming to hammers and flails if they are adding a saving throw based upon class DC. It is just not going to work to put higher level creatures on their backs as reliably
It is just one option. It is pretty reliable because most of the time the critical effect of proning people is just a bonus. There are other ways to do this and it is a team game - your ally eg a monk works well at this can trip the target for you.
reaction attacks
only makes the situation worse for the monk as the fighter gets two reactions not one.
Builds are simple enough even without Free Archetype. Something like this:
Fighter
Str 18 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Full Plate, Handwraps of Mighty Blows
Class Feats:
Level 1: ,
Level 2: Martial Artist Dedication,
Level 4: Stumbling Stance or Wolf Stance,
Level 6: ,
Level 8: Stumbling Feint,
Level 9: Ancestry Multitalented => Monk Dedication
Level 10: Monk's Flurry,
Level 12: Agile Grace
Level 14: Certain Strike,
Level 16: Desperate Finisher or Combat Reflexes
Level 18: Savage Critical
Level 20:
Note that there are 5 extra feats left here for the Fighter to have other options due to Improved Flexibility.
Monk
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Handwraps of Mighty Blows, Bracers of Armor
Class Feats:
Level 1: Stumbling Stance,
Level 1: Natural Ambition Ki Strike,
Level 2: Stunning Fist,
Level 4: Stand Still,
Level 6: Stumbling Feint ,
Level 8: ,
Level 9: Ancestry Multitalented => Fighter Dedication if you want,
Level 10: Monk's Flurry,
Level 12: Stance Savant,
Level 14: ,
Level 16: ,
Level 18: Diamond Fists,
Level 20: Deadly Strikes
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Monk has access to a very good reaction attack. Stand Still. It is different than AoO, and isn’t great against casters, but it works against people trying to step away.
Wait, why would it? Step says it prevents reactions that trigger on leaving a square or using a move action, which Stand Still is. "Such as Attacks of Opportunity" is just an example.
Monk has access to a very good reaction attack. Stand Still. It is different than AoO, and isn’t great against casters, but it works against people trying to step away.Wait, why would it? Step says it prevents reactions that trigger on leaving a square or using a move action, which Stand Still is. "Such as Attacks of Opportunity" is just an example.
That is a good catch. My table was clearly misreading it. It is just capable of disrupting movement alone on a crit. That makes the ability to get reach more important for sure.
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So if I am getting this right we have moved the discussion into "Is the Fighter AS good than Monk at Unarmed Attacks or are they BETTER?" and just completely accepted that this idea that they should even be tied is just genre and concept defying madness...
I get that we have a developer up in here defending the idea that the Monk is good with Unarmed Combat "in other ways" than Fighter but here is the thing, the Fighter can do everything the Monk can BETTER than a Monk with Weapons and can be at least AS GOOD as a fully single class specialized Monk in Unarmed Attacks if the Fighter simply takes a few Monk MCA Feats. There is NO WAY a Monk can EVER even approach being as good at what a Fighter is good at via MCA Feats or anything else... but the Fighter gets a free pass to invest a few of their one resource the also happen to get more of than any other Class to have or surpass parity with the power scale of the actual Class they're poaching from. Maybe the team should look at it from this perspective, that is unless the whole idea of the Fighter Class has always been "the best at Martial Combat THE-END."
The Fighter seems to be getting special treatment here where they have their own niche protection but at the same time, they're allowed to poach the niche of other Classes all while still maintaining accuracy superiority and having a bunch of flexible Class Feats to spare and gain consistent bonuses to damage that don't rely on gimmicks to pull off.
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I think the "feels good" change to the monk being annoyed that other people can poach their basic trick at 10th level is to simply build an improvement into Flurry of Blows for the monk at some point in their career.
Multiclass Barbarians can rage but never get the 7th and 9th level improvements from your instinct. Multiclass Rangers can Hunt Target but never get the Hunter's Edge add-ons. Multiclass Rogues are limited to 1d6 sneak attack.
It's generally rare for a multiclass archetype to give you the full power identical version of a major ability the class itself gets.
I think the "feels good" change to the monk being annoyed that other people can poach their basic trick at 10th level is to simply build an improvement into Flurry of Blows for the monk at some point in their career.
Multiclass Barbarians can rage but never get the 7th and 9th level improvements from your instinct. Multiclass Rangers can Hunt Target but never get the Hunter's Edge add-ons. Multiclass Rogues are limited to 1d6 sneak attack.
It's generally rare for a multiclass archetype to give you the full power identical version of a major ability the class itself gets.
What if, at some appropriate level (not sure what level), Flurry of Blows upgraded to not apply MAP until both attacks were made. And that this was implemented in a way no one else got access to it.
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I agree with the fighter, but you can poach inspire courage and all of the other composition spells. Bard is one of the other multiclasss that arguably give you too much.
There's a subtle difference here. Fighters and monks both roughly contribute the same thing even before fighter steals the monks FoB.
Nobody else is doing what a bard does (free large AoE buffing/debuffing) before they hit 8 and have their own lingering inspire (which conveniently stacks with an actual bard transitioning to dirge at 6).
There's also the bard's better AC from 1-15 through innate light armor (even if you buy proficiency on another caster at 3, you're sacrificing fleet, tough or adopted human) and ability to invest in archetypes like swashbuckler for one for all and master reflex since they aren't stuck just trying to catch up like other cha casters and can instead invest in getting ahead.
One thing I want to point out about the fighter though. Combat reflexes giving you an extra AoO is great, but just looking for two AoOs is missing a great deal. The bigger benefit of that feat is the impressive option selection it offers. You can run archetype reaction spells, champ reaction, ally amp message or whatever else while still maintaining basic AoO threat.
Monk has access to a very good reaction attack. Stand Still. It is different than AoO, and isn’t great against casters, but it works against people trying to step away. dragon’s roar is clearly designed with stand still in mind. +4 damage can be better than MC sneak attack, especially since the damage is not precision. I don’t know if it is 100% worth playing the stand still tank monk to get that extra damage, but at least it requires a frightened enemy so when you want to keep them close you’ve got an extra +1 to attack accuracy and defense.
I am playing a mobile, hit and run dragon stance monk. I am not speaking about white room antics. I haven’t seen the build in action past level 11 yet, and I don’t have stand still because it is not a free archetype game. Mine is a sorcerer who uses defensive and utility magic. They were not built for raw tanking and attacking as often as possible. They do use dragon’s roar. I didn’t realize how effective taking a second attack with dragon’s lash even after a hit was. I usually switch to regular unarmed strikes after I hit, but I am often using dragon claws to do extra fire damage (It is a naturey campaign with a lot of plants). Being very fast and getting 2 attacks in before moving 2 move actions worth of movement away for the enemy has worked out well. When they move up on me is when I either dragon roar or get my third attack, sometimes both if they are looking wobbly.
Prone locking is a power house strategy in PF2 currently, but a major nerf hammer is coming to hammers and flails if they are adding a saving throw based upon class DC. It is just not going to work to put higher level creatures on their backs as reliably. Class DCs are not terrible, but it will be less reliable than making trip attacks. Improved knock down will be pretty essential on maul builds instead of sometime superfluous. It is a good thing creatures aren’t built like PCs and don’t generally have skill feats or else I’d bet a lot of them at higher levels would end up with Kip up, if it also...
Your math is unlikely to match game situations.
I have already spent time tracking a Dragon Style monk built for damage and a Wolf Style monk along with Crane Style and Heavenseeker Style. I know the following from damage tracking:
1. Dragon Style: Higher damage die. Crits are nice. Does better at lower level before other build options come online.
2. Crane Style: Defensive. Not good enough defensively to offset damage loss. Crane Riposte not good enough for investment.
3. Heavenseeker Style: D10 damage dice. More versatile damage. About like Dragon Style with the damage boost from Heaven's Thunder providing a nice boost.
4. Wolf Style: Finesse and agile to focus on Dexterity monk. Has backstabber for another moderate damage booster easy to activate. Second feat chain incorporates Trip into a attack that is automatic trip. Works well with Rogue Archetype picking up sneak attack and rogue feats to further enhance damage. Wolf Drag is a very nice feat that allowed you to make an attack and knock someone prone for two actions with no increased MAPed beyond what one attack costs and it gains the Fatal d12 trait for the attack. Wolf Drag is a great progression feat.
How do you account for all that in the math? A feat that does the following:
1. Strikes doing damage.
2. When it crits, does fatal d12.
3. Knocks the target prone with no skill check and any size as far as I knows since it is not technically a trip.
4. Does all this for a single attack MAP penalty.
When you track this in real play, Wolf Style does more damage than Dragon or any other style. It's a good style for damage for a monk that shows it quality in actual play from combat to combat.
I agree with the fighter, but you can poach inspire courage and all of the other composition spells. Bard is one of the other multiclasss that arguably give you too much.There's a subtle difference here. Fighters and monks both roughly contribute the same thing even before fighter steals the monks FoB.
Nobody else is doing what a bard does (free large AoE buffing/debuffing) before they hit 8 and have their own lingering inspire (which conveniently stacks with an actual bard transitioning to dirge at 6).
There's also the bard's better AC from 1-15 through innate light armor (even if you buy proficiency on another caster at 3, you're sacrificing fleet, tough or adopted human) and ability to invest in archetypes like swashbuckler for one for all and master reflex since they aren't stuck just trying to catch up like other cha casters and can instead invest in getting ahead.
One thing I want to point out about the fighter though. Combat reflexes giving you an extra AoO is great, but just looking for two AoOs is missing a great deal. The bigger benefit of that feat is the impressive option selection it offers. You can run archetype reaction spells, champ reaction, ally amp message or whatever else while still maintaining basic AoO threat.
Yes. I made a Fighter Champion Paladin MC. That Combat Reflexes was absolutely brutal. The Maul Fighter Champion Paladin MC was the most ridiculous martial I played. His options and ability to look at the enemy go: what are you going to do? I knock you on the ground, you stand up pain. I crit you and knock you down again, you stand up again pain. You attack my friend, pain. He would get his regular attacks and then two reaction attacks per round, one with a defensive option.
The giant instinct barbarian is the hardest melee crits I've seen in the game.
But maul fighter with Champion MC was the most ridiculous reaction attacker I've seen in play and it did nutty damage while providing control and debuff benefits for the group.
Monk cannot currently compete with the fighter. The fighter does what the monk does but better and with more damage because the monk's main damage and action economy enhancer Flurry of Blows never gets better.
The Fighter seems to be getting special treatment here where they have their own niche protection but at the same time, they're allowed to poach the niche of other Classes all while still maintaining accuracy superiority and having a bunch of flexible Class Feats to spare and gain consistent bonuses to damage that don't rely on gimmicks to pull off.
To my mind the best fix would be for the Fighter to have clear limitations on the one weapon group it chooses in Fighter Weapon Mastery. So that proficiency can't be copied elsewhere. Gunslingers have special limitations on their legendary proficiency. Then the worst of this nonsense goes away.
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... which I very much consider a control effect because getting up only helps their offensive unless they like crawl and stand up...
Point of note, if a target is in a position to provoke a reaction with a Stand action, then they will also provoke with a Crawl action.
... which I very much consider a control effect because getting up only helps their offensive unless they like crawl and stand up...Point of note, if a target is in a position to provoke a reaction with a Stand action, then they will also provoke with a Crawl action.
Yep. My player tried this last night. I had to inform him of the bad news.
He asked if Mobility worked for standing up or crawling. I wasn't sure. i don't believe it works for standing up, but crawling at half speed? Maybe I would think. So two actions to crawl slowly 5 feet away, then stand up.