| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sad moment. My dear Drow will be missed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see it as drow going away. I see it as them joining the likes of Tiamat and Orcus...still in the setting, just not mentioned in the adventures.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One can be a fokkowet of Orcus and vsin spells from Book of the Dead.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sad moment. My dear Drow will be missed.
I agree.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see it as drow going away. I see it as them joining the likes of Tiamat and Orcus...still in the setting, just not mentioned in the adventures.
Tiamat is actually firmly just not around. The dragon creation myth as described by Travel Guide is all about Apsu and Dahak. As James has noted previously, "tiamat as a thing related to dragons" is 100% a DND thing.
Orcus still wins somehow. He even got a writeup in book of the dead!
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
“Zirnakaynin is a city of cruel demon-worshipping Elves located in the Darklands” is still perfectly cromulent under PF2 lore. There’s really not much to riot about here, other than some understandable sadness that Paizo won’t be the ones telling those stories, but the label “Drow” isn’t worth being too precious about.
WotC caused this, not Paizo.
Creative Director
|
| 17 people marked this as a favorite. |
The thing with Orcus still "winning" is that, unlike Tiamat, Orcus as a goat-headed necromancy demon IS in the OGL. He's got stats in the Tome of Horrors, and whenever we use him in our game, we have to include a callout in the OGL at the end of that book. Which is why you'll see a special "Orcus" seciton on page 222 of the Book of the Dead in the OGL section. An ORC book isn't an OGL book, so we are very likely to not do anything with Orcus going forward.
Fortunately, we've got other demon lords like Kabriri and Zura who can more than handle the need for "necromancy-themed demon lords".
|
Creative Director
|
| 22 people marked this as a favorite. |
“Zirnakaynin is a city of cruel demon-worshipping Elves located in the Darklands” is still perfectly cromulent under PF2 lore. There’s really not much to riot about here, other than some understandable sadness that Paizo won’t be the ones telling those stories.
It could be, but as part of "let's just move away from drow entirely," doing that undermines our stance. So instead, Zirnakaynin is now... well... here's the exact paragraph cut and pasted from the upcoming article as a bonus sneak preview:
"Perhaps the most mysterious and legend-haunted location in all Sekamina is the ancient city of Zirnakaynin. This sprawling ruin features architectural styles echoed today among many other cities, yet curiously Zirnakaynin lacks sekmin influence. Sekmins consider it forbidden, and they dedicate considerable effort to guarding all tunnels leading to this city. Who—or what—built Zirnakaynin, and what may live there today, remains unknown."
The article DOES leave a "back door" open for us some day in the future to still have some sort of "cruel demon-worshiping elves" involved in it if we decide to retain that, but it's just as easy to say anything else about it. It IS sad to see a lot of the familiar OGL monsters having to go away... but for the health of the company, the long-term strength of the brand, and to help us as employees feel more invested in building something WE built rather than ride on popular coat-tails from other companies... drow no longer being a part of Pathfinder is a necessity.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I meant the example of Zirnakaynin as something people could still do within the bounds of current canon - but it got me a glorious preview, so I’m glad to be wrong!
|
Creative Director
|
| 18 people marked this as a favorite. |
WotC caused this, not Paizo.
Let's not make it about that. Remember... without WotC... there would be NO Paizo. The fact that the OGL has been so permissive in letting us play with things, the fact that WotC really helped us to transition over to Pathifnder from the magazines (the original license end date would have left the Savage Tide adventure path ending halfway through), and the fact that healthy RPG companies all around make the industry a better place is what's important.
Instead of lamenting what's going away, I'm doing my best to be excited about the new opportunities we have ahead of us. There's some great innovation and new content we never would have done coming very soon, and yeah, it sucks to lose old friends like the drow, but... let's try to focus on the positive here.
"Perhaps the most mysterious and legend-haunted location in all Sekamina is the ancient city of Zirnakaynin. This sprawling ruin features architectural styles echoed today among many other cities, yet curiously Zirnakaynin lacks sekmin influence. Sekmins consider it forbidden, and they dedicate considerable effort to guarding all tunnels leading to this city. Who—or what—built Zirnakaynin, and what may live there today, remains unknown."
I am going to make the completely unsubstantiated claim that this means my "and they mysteriously vanished... but why?" table canon is canon.
|
Creative Director
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Perhaps the most mysterious and legend-haunted location in all Sekamina is the ancient city of Zirnakaynin. This sprawling ruin features architectural styles echoed today among many other cities, yet curiously Zirnakaynin lacks sekmin influence. Sekmins consider it forbidden, and they dedicate considerable effort to guarding all tunnels leading to this city. Who—or what—built Zirnakaynin, and what may live there today, remains unknown."I am going to make the completely unsubstantiated claim that this means my "and they mysteriously vanished... but why?" table canon is canon.
Your table canon is always canon at your table. Nothing we do should change that.
Your table canon is always canon at your table. Nothing we do should change that.
Of course, I'm just grandstanding haha. After my last campaign set in Kaer Maga, that place is run by ghouls (this is the PCs doing).
“Zirnakaynin is a city of cruel demon-worshipping Elves located in the Darklands” is still perfectly cromulent under PF2 lore. There’s really not much to riot about here, other than some understandable sadness that Paizo won’t be the ones telling those stories.It could be, but as part of "let's just move away from drow entirely," doing that undermines our stance. So instead, Zirnakaynin is now... well... here's the exact paragraph cut and pasted from the upcoming article as a bonus sneak preview:
"Perhaps the most mysterious and legend-haunted location in all Sekamina is the ancient city of Zirnakaynin. This sprawling ruin features architectural styles echoed today among many other cities, yet curiously Zirnakaynin lacks sekmin influence. Sekmins consider it forbidden, and they dedicate considerable effort to guarding all tunnels leading to this city. Who—or what—built Zirnakaynin, and what may live there today, remains unknown."
The article DOES leave a "back door" open for us some day in the future to still have some sort of "cruel demon-worshiping elves" involved in it if we decide to retain that, but it's just as easy to say anything else about it. It IS sad to see a lot of the familiar OGL monsters having to go away... but for the health of the company, the long-term strength of the brand, and to help us as employees feel more invested in building something WE built rather than ride on popular coat-tails from other companies... drow no longer being a part of Pathfinder is a necessity.
Can I ask where this article will appear? Seven Dooms for Sandpoint? or somewhere else?
|
Creative Director
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Can I ask where this article will appear? Seven Dooms for Sandpoint? or somewhere else?“Zirnakaynin is a city of cruel demon-worshipping Elves located in the Darklands” is still perfectly cromulent under PF2 lore. There’s really not much to riot about here, other than some understandable sadness that Paizo won’t be the ones telling those stories.It could be, but as part of "let's just move away from drow entirely," doing that undermines our stance. So instead, Zirnakaynin is now... well... here's the exact paragraph cut and pasted from the upcoming article as a bonus sneak preview:
"Perhaps the most mysterious and legend-haunted location in all Sekamina is the ancient city of Zirnakaynin. This sprawling ruin features architectural styles echoed today among many other cities, yet curiously Zirnakaynin lacks sekmin influence. Sekmins consider it forbidden, and they dedicate considerable effort to guarding all tunnels leading to this city. Who—or what—built Zirnakaynin, and what may live there today, remains unknown."
The article DOES leave a "back door" open for us some day in the future to still have some sort of "cruel demon-worshiping elves" involved in it if we decide to retain that, but it's just as easy to say anything else about it. It IS sad to see a lot of the familiar OGL monsters having to go away... but for the health of the company, the long-term strength of the brand, and to help us as employees feel more invested in building something WE built rather than ride on popular coat-tails from other companies... drow no longer being a part of Pathfinder is a necessity.
This article will be in part 3 of "Sky King's Tomb," due out in September. That's the soonest we could really and responsibly get it written and into a product.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The thing with Orcus still "winning" is that, unlike Tiamat, Orcus as a goat-headed necromancy demon IS in the OGL. He's got stats in the Tome of Horrors, and whenever we use him in our game, we have to include a callout in the OGL at the end of that book. Which is why you'll see a special "Orcus" seciton on page 222 of the Book of the Dead in the OGL section. An ORC book isn't an OGL book, so we are very likely to not do anything with Orcus going forward.
Fortunately, we've got other demon lords like Kabriri and Zura who can more than handle the need for "necromancy-themed demon lords".
To be accurate though, Paizo never really did anything with the Prince of the Undead.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Like the names "Orcus" and "Tiamat" are available to Paizo. Orcus was a Roman deity associated with oaths and the underworld. Tiamat was a Mesopotamian goddess associated with primordial chaos and the ocean. Tiamat was even often depicted as a sea serpent or dragon.
It's just that Orcus as a goat-headed necromancy demon or Tiamat as a five headed multicolored dragon is the intellectual property of someone else.
|
Creative Director
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be accurate though, Paizo never really did anything with the Prince of the Undead.The thing with Orcus still "winning" is that, unlike Tiamat, Orcus as a goat-headed necromancy demon IS in the OGL. He's got stats in the Tome of Horrors, and whenever we use him in our game, we have to include a callout in the OGL at the end of that book. Which is why you'll see a special "Orcus" seciton on page 222 of the Book of the Dead in the OGL section. An ORC book isn't an OGL book, so we are very likely to not do anything with Orcus going forward.
Fortunately, we've got other demon lords like Kabriri and Zura who can more than handle the need for "necromancy-themed demon lords".
We included him in Book of the Damned (and even took a stab at giving him a new look, with a skull head instead of a flesh-covered one), but yes, we deliberately didn't do much with him because he was SO well covered in D&D stuff... and frankly, because I, James Jacobs, had already pretty much said what I wanted to say about Orcus in the Savage Tide Adventure Path.
I'm saddened by the lost of Drow as is, so to speak, but I completely understand Paizo's issue with a lot of the denizens of the Darklands (especially with the quagmire that is the OGL). However as long as I continue to get glimpses into the Darklands, especially Nemret Nokturia (Tanagaar's Talons, cough, cough) I am all in!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm saddened by the lost of Drow as is, so to speak, but I completely understand Paizo's issue with a lot of the denizens of the Darklands (especially with the quagmire that is the OGL). However as long as I continue to get glimpses into the Darklands, especially Nemret Nokturia (Tanagaar's Talons, cough, cough) I am all in!
Tanagaar’s Talons is one of the coolest bits of 2e lore!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
We included him in Book of the Damned (and even took a stab at giving him a new look, with a skull head instead of a flesh-covered one), but yes, we deliberately didn't do much with him because he was SO well covered in D&D stuff... and frankly, because I, James Jacobs, had already pretty much said what I wanted to say about Orcus in the Savage Tide Adventure Path.To be accurate though, Paizo never really did anything with the Prince of the Undead.The thing with Orcus still "winning" is that, unlike Tiamat, Orcus as a goat-headed necromancy demon IS in the OGL. He's got stats in the Tome of Horrors, and whenever we use him in our game, we have to include a callout in the OGL at the end of that book. Which is why you'll see a special "Orcus" seciton on page 222 of the Book of the Dead in the OGL section. An ORC book isn't an OGL book, so we are very likely to not do anything with Orcus going forward.
Fortunately, we've got other demon lords like Kabriri and Zura who can more than handle the need for "necromancy-themed demon lords".
I do appreciate Paizo's take on Baphomet.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey just checking in. Is Paizo completely retconning the drow out of existence in Golarion, including adventure paths etc, or are they "still there" but no longer officially supported by Paizo?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hey just checking in. Is Paizo completely retconning the drow out of existence in Golarion, including adventure paths etc, or are they "still there" but no longer officially supported by Paizo?
They're not going to be in any Paizo published materials going forward, and if those materials touch on areas where you'd expect to see them then you're liable to notice their absence. The only actual retcon is diagetic, as a former "in-universe" article is refuted as mostly fictional by another "in-universe" article. But the bits of the books that are in the voice of a character in the setting have never been wholly reliable anyway.
It doesn't make sense for Paizo to insist "x doesn't exist anywhere on Golarion" since individual games are free to change or ignore anything in any Paizo book.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
From where I'm at, I think a Cavern Elf, Elf Tiefling, a reskinned Vishkanya, or even a bog-standard Fleshwarp can all act as a satisfying PC Drow.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I’m sure James Jacobs has plenty of good plans to replace OGL things like Drow with something else. The darklands could use a total revamp anyways. I’m glad for it.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, all the previous books still exist, the content didn't get deleted.
Except for all the non-Zirnakaynin cities which are becoming Sekmin cities.
Anything related to drow settlements is becoming functionally obsolete.Or your homebrew setting just ignores the newer printed material in favor of the older stuff.
Either way there's a disconnect.
Edited for minor typing mistake
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”
...
EDIT: Cavern Elves, now “Ayindilar,” will get some love. Duergar have been renamed to Hryngar and reworked some; new ancestral magic, have a society driven by paranoia and resentment. Svirfneblins are just Umbral Gnomes, now named Drathnelar in-setting. Sekmin are thriving in a number of Sekamina fortress-cities, plotting a surface invasion.
As somebody in the middle of running Abomination Vaults, I gotta say I love the "morally vague" presentation of drow there, and I really feel like just dropping them completely will leave a pretty significant hole. Serpentfolk are alien and hostile; caligni are creepy and kinda gross. Drow have a Bond-villain suave ambiguity that opens up lots of roleplaying opportunities.
I get the whole OGL business; I also get that I can keep on using drow in my own campaign until the cows come home. But I would really like to see a feasible take on an OGL-friendly and "oof"-less equivalent.
-The Gneech
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”
...
EDIT: Cavern Elves, now “Ayindilar,” will get some love. Duergar have been renamed to Hryngar and reworked some; new ancestral magic, have a society driven by paranoia and resentment. Svirfneblins are just Umbral Gnomes, now named Drathnelar in-setting. Sekmin are thriving in a number of Sekamina fortress-cities, plotting a surface invasion.
As somebody in the middle of running Abomination Vaults, I gotta say I love the "morally vague" presentation of drow there, and I really feel like just dropping them completely will leave a pretty significant hole. Serpentfolk are alien and hostile; caligni are creepy and kinda gross. Drow have a Bond-villain suave ambiguity that opens up lots of roleplaying opportunities.
I get the whole OGL business; I also get that I can keep on using drow in my own campaign until the cows come home. But I would really like to see a feasible take on an OGL-friendly and "oof"-less equivalent.
-The Gneech
Honestly, those drow are SO easily able to be modified to Ayindilar. Once my players get to that point I'll just use that name.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”
...
EDIT: Cavern Elves, now “Ayindilar,” will get some love. Duergar have been renamed to Hryngar and reworked some; new ancestral magic, have a society driven by paranoia and resentment. Svirfneblins are just Umbral Gnomes, now named Drathnelar in-setting. Sekmin are thriving in a number of Sekamina fortress-cities, plotting a surface invasion.
As somebody in the middle of running Abomination Vaults, I gotta say I love the "morally vague" presentation of drow there, and I really feel like just dropping them completely will leave a pretty significant hole. Serpentfolk are alien and hostile; caligni are creepy and kinda gross. Drow have a Bond-villain suave ambiguity that opens up lots of roleplaying opportunities.
I get the whole OGL business; I also get that I can keep on using drow in my own campaign until the cows come home. But I would really like to see a feasible take on an OGL-friendly and "oof"-less equivalent.
-The Gneech
I also loved the AV take and am sad to see them go, but I've made my peace with it. James confirmed that the Ayindilar are not taking over their role... so maybe in a few years we can get Protean-friendly blueish elves who are a little stranger than the Ayindilar.
|
Creative Director
|
| 16 people marked this as a favorite. |
We are really trying hard to keep the remastering/ORC version of Golarion the same, but in the case of drow, we've decided to retcon them. Feel free of course to use drow from our previously published 1st and 2nd edition products, but going forward, they won't be in Pathfinder. Plots previously put forward by drow will either be just dropped, or picked up by serpentfolk. For example, the various cities in Sekamina that were once ruled by drow are now ruled by Serpentfolk... with the exception being that Zirnakaynen is a mysterious ghost city that no one really knows who built it.
All of this is setting us up some building blocks to explore at some point in the future, of course, but drow are not part of our publications once they become remastered/ORC publications.
|
Creative Director
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I also loved the AV take and am sad to see them go, but I've made my peace with it. James confirmed that the Ayindilar are not taking over their role... so maybe in a few years we can get Protean-friendly blueish elves who are a little stranger than the Ayindilar.
Abomination Vaults remains an OGL book and we can reprint it as needed and so on—those drow are fine. And that Adventure Path exists in the current rules-set in hardcover, so we don't have to worry about how to "fix" that if we were to do an ORC version of that adventure. Which I doubt we will, because the game is compatible, and we can just keep the current version in print.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
From where I'm at, I think a Cavern Elf, Elf Tiefling, a reskinned Vishkanya, or even a bog-standard Fleshwarp can all act as a satisfying PC Drow.
I mean, an entire small society of nephilim elves who live in the Darklands could serve as drow stand-ins, especially if you want them to be morally ambiguous so the exact nature of their extraplanar links (fiends? proteans? something we don't even know about yet?) isn't clear. They don't have to be a Sekamina-spanning culture or empire, but adding something like that into the background of your particular take on Golarion would be incredibly simple to do.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a decision I cannot agree with. Drow are second favorite version of elves and to see them just cast aside like this is just WRONG. I've already told people at my table and game groups I'm doing the opposite and will be banning serpentfolk and instead expanding the Drow lore and such even more.
I love Pathfinder, I love the drow, and see them cast aside like this in all honesty almost feels like a good friend being dragged away to never be seen again by another friend who is trying instead to shove what feels like a stranger into the group and acting like nothing has changed.
|
Creative Director
|
| 24 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a decision I cannot agree with. Drow are second favorite version of elves and to see them just cast aside like this is just WRONG. I've already told people at my table and game groups I'm doing the opposite and will be banning serpentfolk and instead expanding the Drow lore and such even more.
I love Pathfinder, I love the drow, and see them cast aside like this in all honesty almost feels like a good friend being dragged away to never be seen again by another friend who is trying instead to shove what feels like a stranger into the group and acting like nothing has changed.
I 100% understand and empathize with that position, but it's the way it has to be. Part of being a creative director is making tough decisions, and this is one that kinda agonized me to make the call for... especially as someone who's put a lot of work into re-contextualizing drow for 2nd edition (in print in Abomination Vaults, and not in print in some future plans for them we had in the works that were really kinda complicated and not yet fully figured out) in a way that makes them not legacies of D&D and not problematic, and whose favorite ever RPG character spent most of her adventuring career as a drow before she died late in the campaign and got reincarnated as an aquatic elf, and as someone who's first 2 published adventures featured drow ("Scepter of the Underworld" in Dungeon #12 and "Thunder Under Needlespire" in Dungeon #24), and as someone who's first in-print D&D credit was a special thanks from Ed Greenwood for "two names and more fun" in the credits page for "Drow of the Underdark"... making this decision was not one that I championed lightly or happily.
But it had to be done, for the health of the company and the game going forward. I hope Darklands fans who stick around will be happy with what we do to that part of Golarion going forward—it remains one of my favorite parts of the setting—and I apologize to those folks who like drow a lot and feel betrayed by this decision.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a decision I cannot agree with. Drow are second favorite version of elves and to see them just cast aside like this is just WRONG. I've already told people at my table and game groups I'm doing the opposite and will be banning serpentfolk and instead expanding the Drow lore and such even more.
I love Pathfinder, I love the drow, and see them cast aside like this in all honesty almost feels like a good friend being dragged away to never be seen again by another friend who is trying instead to shove what feels like a stranger into the group and acting like nothing has changed.
Exactly what I feel. One of my great characters was drow rogue/assassin Shaal Azzar Levianko, a character I cherish to this day. I imagine that now the cave elf is in fact the "official" drow of Paizo. I know that we as players and GMs don't give a damn because our table, our rules. No lawyer can change that, (go Wizard, send a lawyer here sends him, he goes up the slum and never comes down again! I'm full of friends there!), but I always preferred to have something official, so I hope that Paizo is at least "smart" and creates a talent tree for cave elves, at least as I understand it, this shouldn't hurt any license. Here in Brazil we have a term that translated should be "You can copy, just don't do the same...", which I believe fits well with that. I just hate it now, in case I play it, because A) my GM only thinks about Starfinder and B) I still haven't swallowed this "remastered" version of the game, my thaumaturge will be a cave elf lol! I hope my idea touches the heart from someone at Paizo and they give a "dark" talent tree to the elves and everyone who lives underground. Which before all this fighting, would already be the smartest thing to do...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Exactly what I feel. One of my great characters was drow rogue/assassin Shaal Azzar Levianko, a character I cherish to this day. I imagine that now the cave elf is in fact the "official" drow of Paizo. I know that we as players and GMs don't give a damn because our table, our rules. No lawyer can change that, (go Wizard, send a lawyer here sends him, he goes up the slum and never comes down again! I'm full of friends there!), but I always preferred to have something official, so I hope that Paizo is at least "smart" and creates a talent tree for cave elves, at least as I understand it, this shouldn't hurt any license. Here in Brazil we have a term that translated should be "You can copy, just don't do the same...", which I believe fits well with that. I just hate it now, in case I play it, because A) my GM only thinks about Starfinder and B) I still haven't swallowed this "remastered" version of the game, my thaumaturge will be a cave elf lol! I hope my idea touches the heart from someone at Paizo and they give a "dark" talent tree to the elves and everyone who lives underground. Which before all this fighting, would already be the smartest thing to do...This is a decision I cannot agree with. Drow are second favorite version of elves and to see them just cast aside like this is just WRONG. I've already told people at my table and game groups I'm doing the opposite and will be banning serpentfolk and instead expanding the Drow lore and such even more.
I love Pathfinder, I love the drow, and see them cast aside like this in all honesty almost feels like a good friend being dragged away to never be seen again by another friend who is trying instead to shove what feels like a stranger into the group and acting like nothing has changed.
My favorite character I ever played in my 18 years of gaming was a drow. My second character ever was a drow. The character I played at highest level was a drow. My first campaign I ever ran centered on the drow. The reason I even started buying Pathfinder products and getting into it was because of Second Darkness (and Jade Regent). This HURTS and I am almost certain they will not be adjusting/expanding the current elf in PF2e to encompass the drow anymore so than can be seen now...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Exactly what I feel. One of my great characters was drow rogue/assassin Shaal Azzar Levianko, a character I cherish to this day. I imagine that now the cave elf is in fact the "official" drow of Paizo. I know that we as players and GMs don't give a damn because our table, our rules. No lawyer can change that, (go Wizard, send a lawyer here sends him, he goes up the slum and never comes down again! I'm full of friends there!), but I always preferred to have something official, so I hope that Paizo is at least "smart" and creates a talent tree for cave elves, at least as I understand it, this shouldn't hurt any license. Here in Brazil we have a term that translated should be "You can copy, just don't do the same...", which I believe fits well with that. I just hate it now, in case I play it, because A) my GM only thinks about Starfinder and B) I still haven't swallowed this "remastered" version of the game, my thaumaturge will be a cave elf lol! I hope my idea touches the heart from someone at Paizo and they give a "dark" talent tree to the elves and everyone who lives underground. Which before all this fighting, would already be the smartest thing to do...This is a decision I cannot agree with. Drow are second favorite version of elves and to see them just cast aside like this is just WRONG. I've already told people at my table and game groups I'm doing the opposite and will be banning serpentfolk and instead expanding the Drow lore and such even more.
I love Pathfinder, I love the drow, and see them cast aside like this in all honesty almost feels like a good friend being dragged away to never be seen again by another friend who is trying instead to shove what feels like a stranger into the group and acting like nothing has changed.
Hey James! Thanks for both of your clear replies. While I am sad to see that the drow have to go, it is good to hear your clear and concise reasoning for why this just has to happen. I also appreciate it coming from a fellow drow lover. I can tell that you really care about the setting and the lore that you guys have been building over the years. I'm a big fan of the serpentfolk too though, as they are a wonderful callback to Robert E. Howard and his circle of friends. It will be interesting to see what you guys do with them going forward!
Do the changes to Zirnakaynin mean that Second Darkness has been retconned, or does it just mean that the Serpentfolk don't know what the deal is and are afraid?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My favorite character I ever played in my 18 years of gaming was a drow. My second character ever was a drow. The character I played at highest level was a drow. My first campaign I ever ran centered...
And that leaves the wonderful world of Pathfinder Infinite open as our sandbox
|
Creative Director
|
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Do the changes to Zirnakaynin mean that Second Darkness has been retconned, or does it just mean that the Serpentfolk don't know what the deal is and are afraid?
At this point what that means for Second Darkness isn't something we've decided on, but my gut tells me that we'll end up regarding a fair amount of that Adventure Path as non-canonical, like what we did with "Guardians of Dragonfall". The events of Second Darkness are in some ways kind of load bearing, of course, and the lore parts about things like Riddleport are fine, but the larger question of how to handle it...
I suspect those will need to wait until we do something that builds directly off of lore elements established in there. At this point we don't have anything that does that, but rather than spring the "Surprise we can't do drow in the remastered stuff" move sometime in the future when we do wanna do something more with the Darklands or the Winter Council or the like, we made the decision to be transparent about the change at the earliest opportunity after it became apparent that moving out of the OGL publishing business was best for all of us.
That "earliest opportunity" in print is volume 3 of Sky King's Tomb, where an article about "Returning to the Darklands" will appear.
The "earliest opportunity" online is today, in the context of the Into the Darklands panel at Paizocon.
James Jacobs on the Into the Darklands stream just now: “We’re not gonna be doing much with the Drow going forward.”
...
EDIT: Cavern Elves, now “Ayindilar,” will get some love. Duergar have been renamed to Hryngar and reworked some; new ancestral magic, have a society driven by paranoia and resentment. Svirfneblins are just Umbral Gnomes, now named Drathnelar in-setting. Sekmin are thriving in a number of Sekamina fortress-cities, plotting a surface invasion.
As somebody in the middle of running Abomination Vaults, I gotta say I love the "morally vague" presentation of drow there, and I really feel like just dropping them completely will leave a pretty significant hole. Serpentfolk are alien and hostile; caligni are creepy and kinda gross. Drow have a Bond-villain suave ambiguity that opens up lots of roleplaying opportunities.
I get the whole OGL business; I also get that I can keep on using drow in my own campaign until the cows come home. But I would really like to see a feasible take on an OGL-friendly and "oof"-less equivalent.
-The Gneech
+1
Since Ancestries are not as loaded with stuff as races used to be (i.e. you're not getting a bunch of SLAs at low levels anymore). It shouldn't be too hard for people who are so inclined. All you need is the base array of move speed, attribute bonuses/penalties, vision, and any special things (light sensitivity?), then some heritages, and some feats. There's enough other ancestries out there that you can use for a model for "what effects are reasonable for a heritage or feat at a given level."
As for whether Second Darkness is still canon, I think "there used to be Drow, but they disappeared under mysterious circumstances" is a more interesting plot thread, but I understand why Paizo wouldn't want to commit to it.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, just got the news, and I gotta say, this is a huge bummer. Not that I disagree with the reasoning behind it--the more Pathfinder becomes Its Own Thing, the better it gets, and I wouldn't want a potential future WOTC lawsuit hanging over my head, either--but I just... really love drow. Not for what they were in the old, SUPER awful lore, but for the potential they had to be something more.
I think the biggest letdown for me is that I was really looking forward to seeing Paizo revamp and recontextualize the drow to better fit with Golarion's continuing evolution. I wanted to see them grow into something that was more complex and less side-eyeable, and got a lovely taste of that in Abomination Vaults. In fact, I was SO hyped by their potential that I made a drow revolt against demonic rule one of the core running plots in my homebrew campaign.
I guess I just gotta do the work of bringing these svelte, purple freaks into the 21st century myself. I mean, I've already been doing that for over a year, but it just sucks to do it without the guidance of experienced professionals who have more creative breadth and system mastery than little old me.
Thanks to the creative team for all that they've done. While my problematic faves may not have made the cut, I'm still excited for everything else in the works, and appreciate James Jacobs for talking to fans one on one. I respect the honesty and willingness to shoulder the heat, and am eager to see my favorite pretend elf dice game blossom into something truly its own.