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I was browsing the magical items to see if there was anything interesting and stumbled across this in the potions section. Philter of love and it got me wondering can magical love become real. For the purposes of this question assume you found two individuals who would be generally compatible to begin with tastes, interests, personality, etc and dosed them with this potion. Then left them for say a year or a couple of years to spend time, get to know each nad so on. Then you broke enchantment could they have genuinely fallen in love with each other while under the potions influence so even when its broken they're still in love or would the magical enchantment preclude them actually coming to love each other?
At least one AP has creatures that were affected by charm person for a while - and developed enough rapport to voluntarily stay with the caster afterwards.
Falling in love after a while is possible in real life, but in my experience it's never as intense as love on first sight. Which is not necessarily bad, due to lower expectations, healthier lifestyle etc..
Finally I'd differentiate between love (wishing the other creature the best) and being in love (feeling attracted to them). The item seems to cover only the latter, but of course either feeling can support the other one.
my local hedgewitch agrees that it's magical and the source of selfies(narcissistic doppelgangers), twilight novel fan clubs, and one bardic ballad about the ninth try of using the potion...
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Whether it can happen seems WAAAAAAAAAY less important that whether is should be done. This would be a profoundly massive violation of the two victims' consent and agency. As a hypothetical, sure, pretty much everything is possible as a hypothetical. In practice, however, you have essentially put two people under the effects of a magical roofie for a prolonged period of time, robbing them of their inhibitions and autonomy so that you can play matchmaker.
Absolute ethical nightmare.
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If one or both of the individuals involved were to learn that their free will had been over ridden previously they could very well feel violated and deeply upset. Even if they did not blame the other victim it would seem likely that any possible friendship or attraction would be tainted and soiled by these feelings of violation.
This concept comes up in one of the later Dresden Files books and is heartbreaking.
While the potion is in effect the targets emotions are overwritten so no real feelings will be able to develop. The duration of the potion is permanent so the feelings of the person for the target do not change. Normally in a romantic relationship if you don’t put a lot of work into it you drift apart and fall out of love. This does not happen with the potion so it is exerting a continual effect on the target. I don’t think genuine feeling can develop in this situation.
I have to agree with Java man on how the targets feeling will be when the effect is broken. Using this potion is essentially a form of mental rape. Once the effect is broken and the person realizes what happened they are going to feel betrayed and disgusted by what happened. Most people are going to blame the other person for the situation and that is going to make it almost impossible for a relationship to form.
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While I am a staunch opponent of using magic to alter people's minds, I can see this issue boiling down to how one approaches the topic of love in general. From my perspective, love is more of a choice and action than it is a biological reaction. Yes, it is still heavily based in biology and chemical reactions, but those kinds of reactions do not remain as strong and powerful as they initially were for long. After a certain point, the biology part only serves to help reinforce that connection that was built, but the choice to remain and work at maintaining the relationship is where Love is truly shown to exist.
So, I would have to say that ... yes, love could continue to exist after the effect of the Philter were removed. Provided the two individuals were able to recognize and differentiate between the effects of the Philter and the relationship they had built. Because that relationship is still there. It has been built and reinforced, and walking away leave all the work unfinished and eventually a wasted effort. Only you can really decide if those feelings were fake or not, whether you embrace them or not.
Personally, I'd likely stick around with someone that I had built that kind of relationship with and begin plotting with them on how to properly punish the person who dared tamper with our minds like that. Who knows, maybe we'd agree to each take another dose of the Philter in order to restore those feelings of adoration for each other. Love is a choice.
Deathless, your optimism is beautiful.
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Deathless, your optimism is beautiful.
Just the musing of a hopeless romantic that got lucky enough to meet a like-minded partner and still enjoy what I call the honey-moon phase even after 7 years of marriage at this point (plus one year of courtship). We didn't let our visceral emotions and biological reactions dictate the course of our relationship, and it built an impressively strong foundation to build a life together.
Its not often that I get called an optimist, or have my musings referred to as optimistic. So, thank you for that. It is nice to be reminded that how I see the world still has that glowing silver lining, even among the visceral rage that I would feel towards those that would dare tamper and manipulate with the free will of others.
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Interesting most people seem to feel it would actually prevent normal feelings from developing rather than encouraging them.
For this hypothetical (blame Daeran from owlcat's pathfinder who did this) the two involved both got dosed by a third party so they'd know the other person is just as much a victim/test subject not someone to blame.
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i consider all love to be a sort of magic.
considering that some orthodox definition to magic is something that works and happens even though it have no real base in the logical nature of the world to make it work.
An old teacher of mine used to laugh and say 'if it works and you can't explain why - it's magic, which is why to me anything a computer does is also pure magic. it works every time, but i can't explain why'
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i consider all love to be a sort of magic.
considering that some orthodox definition to magic is something that works and happens even though it have no real base in the logical nature of the world to make it work.
An old teacher of mine used to laugh and say 'if it works and you can't explain why - it's magic, which is why to me anything a computer does is also pure magic. it works every time, but i can't explain why'
As someone I work with would tell you, magic smoke. Which is why when the smoke escapes it stops working.
As others have said love is a choice, remove the choice and love is not possible. Any feelings a person develops under mind control is going to be a variant of the Stockholm syndrome. The person under the influence of the potion may not be abused but their actions are not under their control.
Real love is a fragile thing that requires both people to continually work at it. In a lot of ways, the work is more important than the feelings. Your feelings are usually the result of the other persons work, which makes you want to put in the work on your side. It can create a loop that builds over time to something truly special. Love is basically the work you put in not the feeling. The potion gives you the feeling with no work. Remove the feeling and there is nothing.
So… based on the wording of the item… could real love come from it? Hypothetically yes… but even after the enchantment is lifted, any real feelings that remain would forever be in question…
The potion has requirements for it to cause love. The most notable being, “If a romantic attraction is possible toward the first person viewed, the drinker falls in love with that person.” So on some level, romantic attraction is required to exist for it to even have the desired effect… and if romantic attraction is already possible, then it is entirely within reason that someone affected could develop real feelings outside of what the charmed effect imposes.
In most cases however, the feelings of love from the enchanted individual will immediately cease, however their memories of what happened while enchanted will remain… for some, those memories may result in true feelings, for others it could turn into loathing…
Finally I'd differentiate between love (wishing the other creature the best) and being in love (feeling attracted to them). The item seems to cover only the latter, but of course either feeling can support the other one.
The item actually does cover both… the latter being only if romantic attraction is possible, the former is exactly what platonic love is…
What if the people never knew they had been enchanted? A bored wizard doing experiments and just using break enchantment in the middle of the night.
What if the people never knew they had been enchanted? A bored wizard doing experiments and just using break enchantment in the middle of the night.
That depends entirely on the people involved and their particular viewpoints on love. For some people, love is the feelings and emotions that motivate them towards specific actions and behaviors. Others divorce the chemical or biological origins from what they see as the actual action of displaying love.
In my viewpoint, the biological attractions are not usually within a person's direct control and their 'free will' has little to do with anything in that regard, and it is why I see actual love as more of a choice and action, rather than feelings and desires that can fade over time. This informs my opinion on whether or not the effects of the Philter really matter aside from the flagrant disregard for a person's free will (ie, manipulation). Feelings and emotions can come and go just like the effects of that Philter. None of them are truly 'real' in the sense of permanency, and only have as much value as you CHOOSE to assign to them.
My advice for anyone that did not know they had been enchanted is thus: Now you know that your thoughts and emotions can be manipulated by others, even in something as personal as love. This is going to drastically change how you view the whole dynamic of relationships. You can never truly be sure that anything is real again. But, that is no different then before, only that you are now aware of it. Your only real choice is whether or not you WANT to trust someone else, knowing the risks. Do you want what you had? Because it is still there, if you choose it.
Since Stockholm syndrome is a thing it is certainly possible.
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Held my tongue for a while but since it keeps coming up, Stockholm syndrome is largely a sexist myth used to discredit victims, particularly those of prolonged abuse. It has infiltrated to public consciousness thanks to bad pop psychology but, notably, Stockholm syndrome has never had an entry in the DSM. It's much like 'excited delirium' in that it mostly seems like a tool for the 24-hour news cycle and corrupt or lazy cops to diagnose victims in a useful way or excuse other actions.
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Held my tongue for a while but since it keeps coming up, Stockholm syndrome is largely a sexist myth used to discredit victims, particularly those of prolonged abuse. It has infiltrated to public consciousness thanks to bad pop psychology but, notably, Stockholm syndrome has never had an entry in the DSM. It's much like 'excited delirium' in that it mostly seems like a tool for the 24-hour news cycle and corrupt or lazy cops to diagnose victims in a useful way or excuse other actions.
Stockholm Syndrome isn’t in the DSM because it isn’t a mental disorder, it is however still a very real psychological phenomena. Victims with Stockholm Syndrome don’t actually have anything wrong with them, there is no mental illness to treat, and as far as psychological research can tell it is a perfectly normal reaction despite our perception of it. Its believed to be the result of a self defense or coping mechanism. Due to vast inconsistencies between cases, it is difficult to pinpoint a cause or trigger.
Please do your research in full before making claims like this.
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The DSM is really just a matter of opinion. Normal in one culture can be aberrant in another.
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Held my tongue for a while but since it keeps coming up, Stockholm syndrome is largely a sexist myth used to discredit victims, particularly those of prolonged abuse. It has infiltrated to public consciousness thanks to bad pop psychology but, notably, Stockholm syndrome has never had an entry in the DSM. It's much like 'excited delirium' in that it mostly seems like a tool for the 24-hour news cycle and corrupt or lazy cops to diagnose victims in a useful way or excuse other actions.Stockholm Syndrome isn’t in the DSM because it isn’t a mental disorder, it is however still a very real psychological phenomena. Victims with Stockholm Syndrome don’t actually have anything wrong with them, there is no mental illness to treat, and as far as psychological research can tell it is a perfectly normal reaction despite our perception of it. Its believed to be the result of a self defense or coping mechanism. Due to vast inconsistencies between cases, it is difficult to pinpoint a cause or trigger.
Please do your research in full before making claims like this.
A cursory look at Wikipedia shows a body of controversy nearly as long as the section summarizing the illness/condition/whatever. Regardless, none of this changes how it has often been used.
I would say the 'please do your research' standard applies equally here.
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My guess is that Stockholm Syndrome is more complicated than typically portrayed. I believe that it depends on how sympathetic the captors were to begin with. People not directly abusing you, while having goals you can resonate with will get a different result than people abusing you with goals you consider crazy.
Regardless, this theoretical situation is pretty different from Stockholm Syndrome. In this case, you and the other person are both equal "victims".
I feel a close approximation to this magical situation is arranged marriage. In that case the people are "forced" together, but it's not unusual for them to actually fall in love while going through the hardships of life together. Of course, the opposite also happens, where the two just grow to resent each other.
Held my tongue for a while but since it keeps coming up, Stockholm syndrome is largely a sexist myth used to discredit victims, particularly those of prolonged abuse. It has infiltrated to public consciousness thanks to bad pop psychology but, notably, Stockholm syndrome has never had an entry in the DSM. It's much like 'excited delirium' in that it mostly seems like a tool for the 24-hour news cycle and corrupt or lazy cops to diagnose victims in a useful way or excuse other actions.Stockholm Syndrome isn’t in the DSM because it isn’t a mental disorder, it is however still a very real psychological phenomena. Victims with Stockholm Syndrome don’t actually have anything wrong with them, there is no mental illness to treat, and as far as psychological research can tell it is a perfectly normal reaction despite our perception of it. Its believed to be the result of a self defense or coping mechanism. Due to vast inconsistencies between cases, it is difficult to pinpoint a cause or trigger.
Please do your research in full before making claims like this.
A cursory look at Wikipedia shows a body of controversy nearly as long as the section summarizing the illness/condition/whatever. Regardless, none of this changes how it has often been used.
I would say the 'please do your research' standard applies equally here.
Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source of information. It is an open source encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone at any time for any reason. Do you know how often people deliberately change information on wikipedia to spread false information or just for laughs? Dozens of pages every single day are manipulated like that.
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Maybe we can all agree that the facts and details of Stockholm Sybdrome are just a bit much to be resolved on this gaming forum and just move along from it?
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I vote in favor of that. The complexity of that particular topic is one of the reasons I chose to not bring it up.
4 words: Dust of Broken Hearts. If Sorsha and Mad Martigan can make it work after the effects wore off, anyone can.
Sorsha:
What happened to "You are my sun, my moon, my starlit sky"?Madmartigan:
It went away.
Sorsha:
"I dwell in darkness without you," and it *went away*?
Yes. Some arranged marriages work out. Even if it takes years. {note I consider arranged marriages as the same as slavery.)
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Yes. Some arranged marriages work out. Even if it takes years. {note I consider arranged marriages as the same as slavery.)
Strong stance to take. But you are free to hold that opinion, I suppose.