So I am new to pathfinder and I decided to play a human child. Even though humans are usually medium, my DM and I agreed he should be small. Aside from that I was wondering if anyone knew what my best bet would be for making an archer? I mostly want to shoot lots of arrows or deal high damage with the arrows I shoot. I don’t mind if he isn’t special in any other aspect. No versatility needed. I initially thought rogue, but couldn’t find an archetype to support what I’m looking for. Any thoughts?
Rogues aren't usually very good archers.
There are many other classes that can do it better. Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Slayer, Paladin, Inquisitor, Zen Archer Monk... They vary in complexity and versatility (eg, Inquisitors have spellcasting and self-buffs) and resilience (Paladins and Zen Archers have better saves, etc.)
You might think you don't want versatility, but you might find it boring in the long run to just stand in one place firing arrows every round and have no out-of-combat abilities. A sneaky Ranger with some spellcasting might be more interesting than a simple Fighter.
for pure shooting lots of arrows and doing max damage, a dex based fighter (no archetype) with the typical archery feats is the way to go. By 11th level, you should be firing 6 arrows/round, and deal over 100 damage/round
Warpriest and zen archer monk are my 2 go to's for decent archery
Matthew Downie wrote: You might think you don't want versatility, but you might find it boring in the long run to just stand in one place firing arrows every round and have no out-of-combat abilities. A sneaky Ranger with some spellcasting might be more interesting than a simple Fighter. I want to second what Matthew Downie says here. With no or little versatility, your in-combat options are: stand still and fire arrows, or move to the right spot where you can stand still and fire arrows. That's it.
I've never built a dedicated archer and I'm terrible at theorycrafting, but I ran a slingstaff dedicated halfling warpriest. Ranged attack builds require a lot of feats. To hit what TxSam88 is talking about w/6 attacks at 11th level, you need Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and a Dex of 17 or more. You also need some way of consistently getting Haste on yourself; many folks recommend Boots of Speed.
But, you'll also want accuracy so Weapon Focus and Precise Shot are suggested. If you choose to take those 2 feats as well, we're already at 5 feats; if your class or race doesn't give you extra feats then by 11th level you've only got 1 other feat to spend.
Fighter, Slayer, Ranger, Monk (Zen Archer) and Warpriest can be good for the extra feats. Rangers and Warpriests will give you some spell options too. A paladin will have fewer feats to play with but they're highly defensive and Smite is a fantastic damage and accuracy boost a few times/day, especially for multiple attacks.
Folks say the Eldritch Archer Magus isn't the greatest ranged attacker option but it is still an option. From what I'm seeing, Magus is kind of like Paladin in that there's no extra feats in the class but unlike the paladin, Magus gives a lot more options for offense. Magus also gives you access to Blade Tutor Spirit so that you can reduce or ignore the penalties to your attack rolls with Rapid Shot.
Bottom line, in most APs or PFS modules, there's more to do than just fight. If you want to engage with non-combat scenes, pursue options in combat other than shooting arrows, or might be facing foes like swarms against whom an arrow might be useless you might consider choosing a class that gives you options.
Are you applying the young template? The template is designed for creating a child character but has significant draw backs. Taking a -4 penalty to both STR and CON is going to really hurt. The +4 bonus to DEX helps with archery, but not enough. Don’t forget you take the penalty from STR on all bows. Combine that with doing less damage because of size and you may end up not doing any real damage on some hits.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Are you applying the young template? The template is designed for creating a child character but has significant draw backs. Taking a -4 penalty to both STR and CON is going to really hurt. The +4 bonus to DEX helps with archery, but not enough. Don’t forget you take the penalty from STR on all bows. Combine that with doing less damage because of size and you may end up not doing any real damage on some hits. Rather than applying a template I did the classic 4d6 (highest three) then sorted the stats in a way that I thought would make sense. He’s a smart kid, but doesn’t have too much world experience so not very wise. His strength is negligible, but he has high Dex. The attack penalty does kind of blow as well as only using small weapons, but the AC bonus is nice.
The STR penalty applies to damage not to hit. So, if you had a 8 STR that would put your damage to 1d6-1 before other adjustments. You might want to reconsider the small size. Unless you are playing someone around 6 years old, they would probably be considered medium. Dwarves are considered medium. The minimum height for a female dwarf is 3 ft. 9 in. If the character is at least 4 ft. They would be considered medium.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Matthew Downie wrote: You might think you don't want versatility, but you might find it boring in the long run to just stand in one place firing arrows every round and have no out-of-combat abilities. A sneaky Ranger with some spellcasting might be more interesting than a simple Fighter. I want to second what Matthew Downie says here. With no or little versatility, your in-combat options are: stand still and fire arrows, or move to the right spot where you can stand still and fire arrows. That's it.
I've never built a dedicated archer and I'm terrible at theorycrafting, but I ran a slingstaff dedicated halfling warpriest. Ranged attack builds require a lot of feats. To hit what TxSam88 is talking about w/6 attacks at 11th level, you need Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and a Dex of 17 or more. You also need some way of consistently getting Haste on yourself; many folks recommend Boots of Speed.
But, you'll also want accuracy so Weapon Focus and Precise Shot are suggested. If you choose to take those 2 feats as well, we're already at 5 feats; if your class or race doesn't give you extra feats then by 11th level you've only got 1 other feat to spend.
Fighter, Slayer, Ranger, Monk (Zen Archer) and Warpriest can be good for the extra feats. Rangers and Warpriests will give you some spell options too. A paladin will have fewer feats to play with but they're highly defensive and Smite is a fantastic damage and accuracy boost a few times/day, especially for multiple attacks.
Folks say the Eldritch Archer Magus isn't the greatest ranged attacker option but it is still an option. From what I'm seeing, Magus is kind of like Paladin in that there's no extra feats in the class but unlike the paladin, Magus gives a lot more options for offense. Magus also gives you access to Blade Tutor Spirit so that you can reduce or ignore the penalties to your attack rolls with Rapid Shot.
Bottom line, in most APs or PFS modules, there's more to do than just fight. If you want to engage with... The beauty with the Fighter Archer build is you have all the feats you will ever want for Archery by 11th or 12th level (not to mention you get a feat every level, plus the fighter archer bonus stuff) and can then spend the rest of your feats on Non-archery things. I tend to go into TWF afterwards, since you will already have the dex for the build.
Warpriest, 20 pt buy, Small size Humanoid (Human)
Str 8, Dex 18 (16+2 Racial), Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Bonus Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L1 Human Precise Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Manyshot
By L3 as a WP, just as with a Fighter, all of your archery feats are settled by L3 (if you chose to build this way) leaving the rest of the build for ranged attack tweaks, being a switch-hitter with some kind of backup melee weapon or non-combat feats like Skill Focus.
As a WP you count as a Fighter of the same level for feat prereqs, and of course there's everyone's favorite Arsenal Chaplain or whatever its called that gets weapon training.
The vanilla WP however has lower BAB than a fighter and less feats long term. On the flip they have some spells, Blessings, Fervor, Channel Energy (though this is very weak & probably used rarely), and a few rounds/day Sacred Armor and Sacred Weapon buffs.
At the end of the day, the WP will have fewer iterative attacks and lower accuracy than a fighter. Fervor/Divine Favor and Fate's Favored can go a long way to make that up a few times/day. However access to personal spells as well as the ability to use Scrolls, Wands, Staves and such with Cleric/Oracle spells in them lends greater diversity to the PC.
I'm not saying fighter is bad, nor am I saying you can't have diversity with a human fighter, I'm only suggesting that with a WP, you're sacrificing a bit of consistent DPR long term for even more diversity.
Monty7 wrote: So I am new to pathfinder and I decided to play a human child... DM and I agreed he should be small. Aside from that I was wondering if anyone knew what my best bet would be for making an archer? I mostly want to shoot lots of arrows or deal high damage with the arrows I shoot. I don’t mind if he isn’t special in any other aspect. No versatility needed... Young template may be useful. I'd assume in a few years you will progress to Med size young adult/adult.
Small size -> small weapons that do less damage. Often class abilities, feats, criticals add dice of damage which is less with smaller die maximums.
Small also means CM gets a penalty while AC and such gain a bonus.
Rangers have their favored enemies and choosing your own race usually requires that your alignment is Evil.
Magus relies on criticals do do extra infrequent damage (termed 'spiky').
A lot of martial types rely on feats. Size doesn't change that.
Some of the halfling giant-fighters and bellflower archetypes rely on small size.
With all that and then changing size in a few years, equipment wise this is going to create some havoc. I'd plan for that transition. It also makes you vulnerable to age altering spells.
For a caster small means higher AC which can be critical.
I wouldn't be surprised if you took Ranger or Fighter and then switched to your main class.
Zen Archer is a classic "go to" for archery.
You could go Gunslinger-Pistolero as that may avoid size issues.
I'd consult the Class Guides.
PF1 Class Guides at ZG
Items that can save you thread
Religion & Languages on PFWiki
(while some people are well intentioned they don't always stay within RAW. I'd also verify anything in the Class Guides that seem too good with your GM).
Any character attacking with ranged weapons NEEDS the feat Precise Shot. Otherwise you're taking -4 to shoot at anyone in melee. And if you're not using EITR rules, you'll need Point-Blank Shot to get it. Luckily a human can get both of those at level 1 thanks to the racial bonus feat. (Ask your GM if you're using EITH. It'll save you from needing not only Point-Blank Shot but also on Deadly Aim.)
I played a forester archetype hunter as an archer recently and had a blast. Good combat ability and utility outside of fighting as well. Yiu could go for a "kid raised by wolves" vibe with it.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Warpriest, 20 pt buy, Small size Humanoid (Human)
Str 8, Dex 18 (16+2 Racial), Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Bonus Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L1 Human Precise Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Manyshot
You’re not getting Manyshot at a 3rd level Warpriest… it requires BaB +6… warpriest can get it through bonus feats but you have to be atleast 6th level to do so.
Personally I find 3levels of Zen Archer Monk to be the best jumpstart for archery… optionally 6 levels for a few more bonuses…
L1 Bonus Improved Unarmed Strike
L1 Bonus Perfect Strike
L1 Bonus Point-blank Shot or Precise Shot
L1 Human Precise Shot or Point-Blank Shot
L2 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L2 Bonus Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Point-blank Master
L6 Bonus Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L6 Bonus Manyshot
This still leaves 3 feats from leveling for whatever you want
Human Fighter 6
Why level 6? Because it's where we can get Manyshot...
1. Point Blank Shot
1. Precise Shot
1. Rapid Shot
2. Weapon Focus
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Specialization
5. Point Blank Master
6. Manyshot
Full attack is 4 arrows...
Between Weapon Focus and Weapon Training, the penalty from Rapid Shot has been washed away... Deadly Aim is a -2, but is adding +4 damages to each arrow... that's +7 damages to each arrow with Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training...
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Clustered Shots, Weapon Focus and Snap Shot I've heard described as either must haves or extremely useful long term. Clustered Shots for overcoming DR, Snap Shot if your PC needs to be able to fire while threatened or threaten with a bow in melee.
That right there is 7 feats. If your PC doesn't get extra feats from their class, even being Human you've only got 11 feats over the course of 20 levels.
Your damage comes from the quantity of attacks in and frequency of full attacks. That means accuracy is paramount since iterative attacks become important. A Small sized PC with Dex 18 to start and Full BAB has +6 at L1 and it'll go up from there; 3/4 BAB PCs will need spells or Class Abilities to pump that higher.
If you still want to go with a Rogue: maxing out your Initiative is extremely important. Over the course of 20 levels you'll get 1 extra Combat feats from Rogue talents, Weapon Focus from Rogue Talents, and your Human bonus feat:
L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Human Precise Shot
L2 Rogue Talent Weapon Training (Longbow)
Just read
L3 Rapid Shot
L4 Combat Trick (Manyshot)
L5 Improved Initiative
L6 Feint from the Shadows
L7 choose any feat
L8 Retrain L7 feat for Clustered Shots
L9 Snap Shot
L10 Rogue Advanced Talent Quick Shot
L11 Accomplished Sneak Attacker
By this point you're making 1 ranged attack when you roll your initiative, hopefully acting before the enemy does and delivering SA damage. If your Initiative is high enough then your full attack delivers another 5 attacks with the longbow against your foe's Flat Footed AC, with any hits delivering more SA damage.
The above is figured from the PC being an Unchained Rogue. This is important b/c it gives your Sneak Attack a second function besides damage: Debilitating Injury.
Starting at 4th level any time you're dealing SA damage you're also delivering 1 kind of strike that penalizes that foe in some way for 1 round after they take said damage. For example Bewildered: The target becomes bewildered, taking a –2 penalty to AC. The target takes an additional –2 penalty to AC against all attacks made by the rogue. At 10th level and 16th level, the penalty to AC against attacks made by the rogue increases by –2 (to a total maximum of –8).
Think about that penalty: using Quick Shot at L11, your PC hits a foe and deals SA damage; that foe is now -2 to their AC for 1 full combat round for the rest of your allies to attack them, but they're -6 to any of your attacks. On your initiative, you unload another 5 attacks against a foe with a -6 to their AC making it that much more likely you're hitting with all those attacks.
Also Snap Shot is fairly important for the rogue as it lets you threaten in melee. If you're brave and have a decent AC, this means if you can't beat your foe's initiative you can still set up flanks with allies and deliver SA damage that way.
Again, there are classes that will be better, more accurate and have more feat options, but it is POSSIBLE to pull this off with a Rogue (Unchained).
Edit: just read Chell's post pointing out Manyshot needs BAB +6 so pick a different Combat feat at L4 and reduce the number of attacks you're making w/the Unchained Rogue. IMO, still doable if dealing less damage than other PCs. I told you I'm bad at theorycrafting...
Chell Raighn wrote: Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Warpriest, 20 pt buy, Small size Humanoid (Human)
Str 8, Dex 18 (16+2 Racial), Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Bonus Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L1 Human Precise Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Manyshot
You’re not getting Manyshot at a 3rd level Warpriest… it requires BaB +6… warpriest can get it through bonus feats but you have to be atleast 6th level to do so.
Personally I find 3levels of Zen Archer Monk to be the best jumpstart for archery… optionally 6 levels for a few more bonuses…
L1 Bonus Improved Unarmed Strike
L1 Bonus Perfect Strike
L1 Bonus Point-blank Shot or Precise Shot
L1 Human Precise Shot or Point-Blank Shot
L2 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L2 Bonus Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Point-blank Master
L6 Bonus Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L6 Bonus Manyshot
This still leaves 3 feats from leveling for whatever you want I like this build for the most part; however, Perfect strike requires a +8 BAB, also I’m not certain if two more feats can be taken at L2 or if it is just the bonus feat that you gain.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: The STR penalty applies to damage not to hit. So, if you had a 8 STR that would put your damage to 1d6-1 before other adjustments. You might want to reconsider the small size. Unless you are playing someone around 6 years old, they would probably be considered medium. Dwarves are considered medium. The minimum height for a female dwarf is 3 ft. 9 in. If the character is at least 4 ft. They would be considered medium. I see. Still though, the young template isn’t being used in this case so there is nothing to worry about there. Also, the kid is around eleven and has been described to the DM/Party to be a bit short for his age. He is 4’0” exactly, so he may transition to medium during some point of the campaign. It isn’t RAW, but DM approved.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Matthew Downie wrote: You might think you don't want versatility, but you might find it boring in the long run to just stand in one place firing arrows every round and have no out-of-combat abilities. A sneaky Ranger with some spellcasting might be more interesting than a simple Fighter. I want to second what Matthew Downie says here. With no or little versatility, your in-combat options are: stand still and fire arrows, or move to the right spot where you can stand still and fire arrows. That's it.
I've never built a dedicated archer and I'm terrible at theorycrafting, but I ran a slingstaff dedicated halfling warpriest. Ranged attack builds require a lot of feats. To hit what TxSam88 is talking about w/6 attacks at 11th level, you need Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot and a Dex of 17 or more. You also need some way of consistently getting Haste on yourself; many folks recommend Boots of Speed.
But, you'll also want accuracy so Weapon Focus and Precise Shot are suggested. If you choose to take those 2 feats as well, we're already at 5 feats; if your class or race doesn't give you extra feats then by 11th level you've only got 1 other feat to spend.
Fighter, Slayer, Ranger, Monk (Zen Archer) and Warpriest can be good for the extra feats. Rangers and Warpriests will give you some spell options too. A paladin will have fewer feats to play with but they're highly defensive and Smite is a fantastic damage and accuracy boost a few times/day, especially for multiple attacks.
Folks say the Eldritch Archer Magus isn't the greatest ranged attacker option but it is still an option. From what I'm seeing, Magus is kind of like Paladin in that there's no extra feats in the class but unlike the paladin, Magus gives a lot more options for offense. Magus also gives you access to Blade Tutor Spirit so that you can reduce or ignore the penalties to your attack rolls with Rapid Shot.
Bottom line, in most APs or PFS modules, there's more to do than just fight. If you want to engage with... In 5e I played a few versatile or Jack of several/all trades and I think I’m okay with having a singular skill that I excel at this time around. Normally I agree with that though as it can get boring very quickly.
There are many ways to build a strong archer in Pathfinder. From what you've said and asked for, I think the fighter or zen archer monk are closest to what you want.
Monty7 wrote: Chell Raighn wrote: Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Warpriest, 20 pt buy, Small size Humanoid (Human)
Str 8, Dex 18 (16+2 Racial), Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Bonus Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L1 Human Precise Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Manyshot
You’re not getting Manyshot at a 3rd level Warpriest… it requires BaB +6… warpriest can get it through bonus feats but you have to be atleast 6th level to do so.
Personally I find 3levels of Zen Archer Monk to be the best jumpstart for archery… optionally 6 levels for a few more bonuses…
L1 Bonus Improved Unarmed Strike
L1 Bonus Perfect Strike
L1 Bonus Point-blank Shot or Precise Shot
L1 Human Precise Shot or Point-Blank Shot
L2 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L2 Bonus Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Point-blank Master
L6 Bonus Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L6 Bonus Manyshot
This still leaves 3 feats from leveling for whatever you want I like this build for the most part; however, Perfect strike requires a +8 BAB, also I’m not certain if two more feats can be taken at L2 or if it is just the bonus feat that you gain. Zen Archer Monk grants you Improved Unarmed Strike & Perfect Strike as bonus feats at level 1 without needing to meet prerequisites. It then give you and additional bonus feat from a short list, of which the best choices at level 1 are Point-Blank Shot or Precise Shot… as a human you can easily get both, and still have your normal 1st Level feat to spend.
At level 2 the Zen Archer gets Weapon Focus in either longbows or shortbows as a bonus feat, and then they get yet another bonus feat from the same feat list they picked from at level 1, of the remaining options Rapid Shot is your best choice if you are only doing a short dip into Zen Archer but if you plan to remain Zen Archer for the e long haul then Rapid Shot is useless and you should take Far Shot. I meant to have Bonus listed before Weapon Focus in my previous post but somehow it didn't end up there…
Chell Raighn wrote: Monty7 wrote: Chell Raighn wrote: Mark Hoover 330 wrote: Warpriest, 20 pt buy, Small size Humanoid (Human)
Str 8, Dex 18 (16+2 Racial), Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
L1 Point Blank Shot
L1 Bonus Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L1 Human Precise Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Manyshot
You’re not getting Manyshot at a 3rd level Warpriest… it requires BaB +6… warpriest can get it through bonus feats but you have to be atleast 6th level to do so.
Personally I find 3levels of Zen Archer Monk to be the best jumpstart for archery… optionally 6 levels for a few more bonuses…
L1 Bonus Improved Unarmed Strike
L1 Bonus Perfect Strike
L1 Bonus Point-blank Shot or Precise Shot
L1 Human Precise Shot or Point-Blank Shot
L2 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L2 Bonus Rapid Shot
L3 Bonus Point-blank Master
L6 Bonus Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
L6 Bonus Manyshot
This still leaves 3 feats from leveling for whatever you want I like this build for the most part; however, Perfect strike requires a +8 BAB, also I’m not certain if two more feats can be taken at L2 or if it is just the bonus feat that you gain. Zen Archer Monk grants you Improved Unarmed Strike & Perfect Strike as bonus feats at level 1 without needing to meet prerequisites. It then give you and additional bonus feat from a short list, of which the best choices at level 1 are Point-Blank Shot or Precise Shot… as a human you can easily get both, and still have your normal 1st Level feat to spend.
At level 2 the Zen Archer gets Weapon Focus in either longbows or shortbows as a bonus feat, and then they get yet another bonus feat from the same feat list they picked from at level 1, of the remaining options Rapid Shot is your best choice if you are only doing a short dip into Zen Archer but if you plan to remain Zen Archer for the e long haul then Rapid Shot is useless and you should take Far Shot. I meant to have Bonus listed before Weapon Focus in my previous post but somehow it didn't end up there… Ahhhhhh. Thank you for the clarity! From all the advice people have been giving I think I will lean towards zen archer monk or fighter. This really helps me narrow things down. It’s kind of weird that the biggest challenge for me is choosing between so many options (unlike the limits of 5e). This can be overwhelming, but too many choices is a great problem to have, IMO. Thank you again.
I have a small ZAM that I am relatively happy with... I used a trait to get Bluff as a class skill, and took Bewildering Koan at level 5. You could easily pull off using a Gnome as a small Human, and play off dumbfounding your enemies with childish BS instead of having them ponder the mysteries of the universe, or whatever.
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VoodistMonk wrote: I have a small ZAM that I am relatively happy with... I used a trait to get Bluff as a class skill, and took Bewildering Koan at level 5. You could easily pull off using a Gnome as a small Human, and play off dumbfounding your enemies with childish BS instead of having them ponder the mysteries of the universe, or whatever. That is hilarious… “I was thinking, If the prime material is comprised of small intersecting segments of all other planes then are any of us truly native beings or are we all merely transient beings who spend our entire life passing between planes endlessly?”
PZOen on the DL
=====
Bewildering Koan
Gnome-body gnaws Soto like
Roidira's hollaw.
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The amount of options is the whole reason I play Pathfinder rather than 5e. Being able to make a bunch of different characters is appealing to me. The options in 5e feel all samey.
Some Pathfinder Advice:
* Keep some "blunt arrows" around for the occasional DR/bludgeoning, like skeletons
* Get Precise Shot as soon as possible
* Don't completely dump strength. Dexterity, or maybe wisdom for the zen archer, will be your primary stat, but you will eventually benefit from the strength bonus of composite bows, especially with the adaptive magic weapon quality. Also, archers tend to need some moderate carrying capacity, which strength will help with. For a medium size character I don't usually go below 13 strength, 10 for a small character, since their equipment weighs less.
Melkiador wrote: Some Pathfinder Advice:
* Keep some "blunt arrows" around for the occasional DR/bludgeoning, like skeletons
* Get Precise Shot as soon as possible
* Don't completely dump strength. Dexterity, or maybe wisdom for the zen archer, will be your primary stat, but you will eventually benefit from the strength bonus of composite bows, especially with the adaptive magic weapon quality. Also, archers tend to need some moderate carrying capacity, which strength will help with. For a medium size character I don't usually go below 13 strength, 10 for a small character, since their equipment weighs less.
Forget blunt arrows and pick up cluster shot who cares if they have DR if you're doing over 100 damage in one chunk. aside from that, this is good advice.
TxSam88 wrote: Melkiador wrote: Some Pathfinder Advice:
* Keep some "blunt arrows" around for the occasional DR/bludgeoning, like skeletons
* Get Precise Shot as soon as possible
* Don't completely dump strength. Dexterity, or maybe wisdom for the zen archer, will be your primary stat, but you will eventually benefit from the strength bonus of composite bows, especially with the adaptive magic weapon quality. Also, archers tend to need some moderate carrying capacity, which strength will help with. For a medium size character I don't usually go below 13 strength, 10 for a small character, since their equipment weighs less.
Forget blunt arrows and pick up cluster shot who cares if they have DR if you're doing over 100 damage in one chunk. aside from that, this is good advice. The blunt arrows are cheap and available from level 1. There's no reason to not have both, and clustered shots won't come online till level 6 at the earliest and more likely at level 7-9.
honestly blunt arrows are impractical. Why? The character needs Know(Religion) to identify the properties of Undead and these guys are wimps. The rest of the party will take them out by the time the arrows are fired.
They are practical IF the character has feats to increase non-lethal damage or impose conditions. Otherwise it is a character trait to use blunt arrows all the time on intelligent creatures.
For Undead; bola bolts, {grappling arrows}, tanglefoot bag, alchemist's fire, holy water are pretty effective.
Azothath wrote: honestly blunt arrows are impractical. Why? The character needs Know(Religion) to identify the properties of Undead and these guys are wimps. The rest of the party will take them out by the time the arrows are fired. Odds are good one party member can reach the easy knowledge check. But more practically it will only take one round of attacks to realize that piercing and slashing attacks aren't working well. I suppose you could get unlucky and not have a party member with bludgeoning attacks. It may depend on how you want to roleplay your character.
Even if the PC starts with 3 feats and full BAB, they're likely only dealing 1d6+1 at 30' on a single arrow. A CR1/3 skeleton has a DC 10 knowledge check to ID their DR and they have DR5/Bludgeoning.
A CR1 encounter with skeletons requires 3 of them; for higher CR encounters, more skeletons. It might take more than 1 round to slay this foe at L1. If your avg damage isn't getting through their DR you're not contributing to ending the combat and potentially putting yourself and your party at undue risk.
A club however would be free; a sling with sling bullets are relatively cheap. A Small sized PC firing sling bullets from 30' away when their longbow isn't working can still deal 1d3+1 damage, minus any Str penalty if they dumped that stat.
Or, y'know, just buy the blunt arrows...
Melkiador wrote: Azothath wrote: honestly blunt arrows are impractical. Why? The character needs Know(Religion) to identify the properties of Undead and these guys are wimps. The rest of the party will take them out by the time the arrows are fired. Odds are good one party member can reach the easy knowledge check. But more practically it will only take one round of attacks to realize that piercing and slashing attacks aren't working well. I suppose you could get unlucky and not have a party member with bludgeoning attacks. It may depend on how you want to roleplay your character. Having overseen hundreds of games it is rare that players actually make those checks at the onset of battle. It's quite surprising.
The other half is even with that info players don't want to exchange out their primary/good weapon and likely don't have a backup weapon (in PFS). Things are looser in Home Games but in my experience practicality is more a product of game experience and personal preference.
---[redact some stuff where I was off and on about details of perception]--- Yes, I know it's a game issue(seen as a flaw).
anywho -
my advice is for archers to spend their cash on cold iron arrows and weapon blanches. A set of arrows that cause bleed, trip, or flaming are always handy options. Durable arrows are good but require time after combat and players to say "I'm collecting my arrows".
Azothath wrote: It would take a Heal check along with Perception checks to 'know' something's up. It is akin to determining HPs by just looking with Perception. Do you have a source for that assertion? As far as I know there are no set rules for knowing that you are facing damage reduction, but it seems reasonable that you'd feel the difference for most enemies. You've attacked enough things to know what it feels like when one isn't reacting right.
In the case of the skeleton, It'd be obvious that you aren't cutting and piercing the way you would against a normal creature, and that your attacks are sliding off without doing much damage. You should see it right away. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you'd notice someone with bludgeoning attacks is doing just fine while you're struggling. So some roll seems reasonable, but I don't think there are existing rules for it
Melkiador wrote: Azothath wrote: It would take a Heal check along with Perception checks to 'know' something's up. It is akin to determining HPs by just looking with Perception. Do you have a source for that assertion? this is an old debate that's gone on for many many years.
It is a topic where GMs let the metagaming slide for practical reasons (healing) and where the game RAW seems at odds with Experience.
1) PF1 Org Play came down with that decision and then later a boon to allow PC's to track one thing they would remember about a monster from a laundry list of creatures. Most players did not have that boon as they had a limited distribution. I've also seen players poo-pooh the boon as table GMs let it slide for the most part. So players must spend skill points if they want a chance to know something and that was that.
2) there is no direction in RAW thus it is not possible.
3) There are skills and spells that cover this area so those should be used. Not using them 'dilutes' their value and punishes players that have them.
4) The rules for Hardness is analogous to damage reduction so we are back to skills & time and spells to gain information.
I'd agree that they can see conventional attacks don't seem to work but there's no direction as to what will or what the cause is... it's purposefully left nebulous.
this is going to totally derail the thread and draw ire like nobody's business... so this is my last post
"Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature’s tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won’t work."
By RAW you're supposed to be able to see whether damage reduction is happening just by being there, although I admit that rule could have been written more clearly.
(Also it's weird that people are arguing against blunt arrows being a good choice. The cost is trivial, and skeletons are one of the commonest early enemies.)
The problem with PFS is how episodic it is. It's hard to "prove" that you've already had experience with a creature. Basically, the only history your character has is what's recorded on the sheet. Even if the GM happened to have the adventure recorded on your sheet at hand, there are always ways to skip encounters altogether.
The skill lets you know what will work right away. That's plenty of value. Experience lets you know what hasn't worked. You could try brute force to figure it out, but the creature may be dead before it happens. And variants exist. Just because you fought one creature that had one ability, that doesn't mean you know that a similar looking creature has the same abilities.
But I reject that something isn't possible if there is no RAW for it. RAW is not that kind of absolute. Common sense should apply, except where explicitly contradicted by RAW
Melkiador wrote: ...
But I reject that something isn't possible if there is no RAW for it. RAW is not that kind of absolute. Common sense should apply, except where explicitly contradicted by RAW
I agree mostly and that's why GMs are required. Clearly you're on GM territory as soon as you step out of RAW and it can be sensible or (rarely) not.
RAW wise it can get tricky as it is general or specific knowledge before and after the fact. You have to balance it with skills to allow Game Balance as some things require investment in that ability.
It's a tough pill to swallow but I think PFS had it right and there needs to be a mechanism for PCs to remember some details (INT checks?).
I suggested slings or clubs just cuz the cost is even lower than the 2gp for blunt arrows, but yeah, get blunt arrows. Like, aren't these the SAME forums where I've heard for years that folks should have backup weapons, always carry a sling b/c NEVER be unarmed and so on? Yet blunt arrows are a bridge too far?
Also, weapon blanche: you have to remember to apply it. I'm not saying it's a bad option mind you, but if players are routinely forgetting to make Knowledge checks at the outset of combat, what are the odds they're going to remember to pre-apply weapon blanche?
This is anecdotal and I don't have data or spreadsheets to prove 1 way or another, but for years I've actually been very frustrated by the frequency of knowledge checks at my tables. I run exclusively home games, so there's that, but there seems to be a couple unwritten rules across multiple different groups of players I've run: 1, between the 4 or more PCs in the group, all monster lore Knowledges need to be covered and 2, as you roll initiative ask the GM when we can make a Knowledge check to ID the monster.
Making them is not hard. Knowledge (Religion) is a Class skill for 14 of the 29 vanilla classes. There's also the potential for an Archetype, Bloodline or Trait to give a PC access. With an Int of 10 and 1 rank in Knowledge (Religion) as a Class skill that's +4 to the check vs a skeleton's DC which is 10, or a 75% chance of at least ID'ing the monster if not knowing more.
Getting back to specifically blunt arrows though, as Melkiador says, Clustered Shots likely won't be a thing until 6th level, more likely 7-9 level. There are a variety of skeletons, the CR2 draugr, CR3 Osteon, and several templates that all get DR5/Bludgeoning, are either low CR or only give a +1CR boost to a monster and thus have the potential to be encountered before L6 by a Small sized archery-focused PC.
2gp for 10 blunt arrows, 1sp for a sling and 10 sling bullets, or free to have a club on your belt are not unreasonable suggestions to deal with a type of DR that your per-arrow damage, as a Small sized PC, won't likely overcome until what, 4th, maybe 5th level?
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: .. suggested {weapon options & purchases}
... for years I've actually been very frustrated by the frequency of knowledge checks at my tables... PCs in the group, all monster lore Knowledges need to be covered and 2, as you roll initiative ask the GM when we can make a Knowledge check to ID the monster.
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Getting back to specifically blunt arrows though, as Melkiador says, Clustered Shots likely won't be a thing until 6th level, more likely 7-9 level. There are a variety of skeletons, the CR2 draugr, CR3 Osteon, and several templates that all get DR5/Bludgeoning, are either low CR or only give a +1CR boost to a monster and thus have the potential to be encountered before L6 by a Small sized archery-focused PC.
2gp for 10 blunt arrows, 1sp for a sling and 10 sling bullets, or free to have a club on your belt are not unreasonable suggestions to deal with a type...
purchasing them is not the issue.
Knowing when and what to use is the issue.
I'm glad your players attempt the rolls as that's how it should be.
> I did start with an option to preferably use blunt arrows most of the time that side steps the issue.< "Otherwise it is a character trait ..."
Blanches are applied after purchase as the expiration happens after they are fired. It's silly not to apply them as then they're just unused overhead for the next battle.
I’ve got a small sized archer in a kingmaker campaign who has been carrying around an assortment of blanched arrows as well as a handful of other specialty arrows since like the 5th game session… she’s only ever had to use like one of them so far… for the most part she just ends up using thistle arrows for her initial attack to cause bleed then switches to normal arrows for the rest of an encounter… as for knowing when an enemy may be susceptible to a different material or damage type… the knowledge checks for that usually aren’t super high, and as others have pointed out DR is obvious. How much DR and what bypasses it may not be obvious but the presence of DR is obvious to all who can see it when an attack is made.
It is worth noting as well that upon first encountering a creature the party should be allowed knowledge checks to identify it. Upon first witnessing an effect from an ability they did NOT identify they should be permitted a new knowledge check for the new stimulus. So there are at minimum 2 opportunities for the party to learn how to overcome a skeletons DR. Failing to identify it through knowledge doesn’t mean they cant learn through other means. The Archers arrows barely chip at the bone, the fighters sword glances off the ribcage, but the barbarian’s hammer shattered one skeletons skull into a million pieces… its not unreasonable for a party member to attempt to use a bludgeoning weapon of their own after witnessing an ally encounter no resistance with theirs.
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I have to agree with Chell Raighn that characters should get knowledge checks automatically. This is one reason I have copies of all character. I use Hero Labs and the official copy of the character is the one on my laptop. I update characters both at the beginning and end of a session. I will print out a new copy for a player whenever they request. I also create portfolios for all encounters and use my laptop during the game. I can make any skill check required without asking the player for the bonus. I try to avoid doing that as much as I can, but sometimes it is needed.
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