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At least that's the ones I can think of off the top of my head. However, I'd say a great deal of those have good reason to be feats.
Yeah I think that's one distinction that needs to be made here.
There are autopicks that feel like they're essential for build completion, those are the worst ones.
There are feats that feel like autopicks simply because they're strong and effective and maybe lack good competition. These are probably fine but speak to the need to expand feat options for characters.
There are also some awkward grey area feats that are designed to be taxes because they're part of chains that Paizo has deemed too good for a single feat. Those are weird because they sort of need to stay but it's also understandable why it feels bad.
Auto-pick feats (or close enough):
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- Running Reload (not necessarily on the gunslinger, but on literally anyone else who wants to use reload weapons)
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Borderline auto-picks (auto-picks for subclasses and variations, usually based on weapon loadout):
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- Risky Reload (debatable)
Risky Reload is... very strong, but I don't know if it's an auto-pick. Especially if you take Running Reload. It also conflicts with Fake Out since it really, really wants to be your first shot of the turn (and thus starting turn unloaded). It's also of course good with activated ammo because of the whole action economy issues with the stuff.
I think that you are overrating Running Reload due action compression without consequences but are underrating Risky Reload.
In most situations gunslinger are positioned away from melee range and mostly opponents won't go to backline unless it's close enough to reach in one action and don't have better 2/3-action moves to use the make them consider to advance to player's backline. This situation put Risky Reload as more interesting move than Running Reload in mostly cases.
IMO both are most have feats but act in different situations. For gunslinger are little reason to don't put these feats in the chassis. But for other classes I still thing that we need a more item solution like a Reload rune or similar solution to speedup reload actions because the simple fact that you need to take a feat even if it's a general feat to make the firearms that aren't currently better than bows ends being a feat tax for other classes.
- Fake-out (if not at level 2, later)
Fake-out is good but costs your reload to do an Aid. I don't know if everyone want to waste a class feat slot + your reaction + a reload action to give just a +1 circumstance bonus to some one. It's just to expensive specially when compared to other reaction feats.
But I agree with the rest of Karmagator statements.
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- Fake-out (if not at level 2, later)Fake-out is good but costs your reload to do an Aid. I don't know if everyone want to waste a class feat slot + your reaction + a reload action to give just a +1 circumstance bonus to some one. It's just to expensive specially when compared to other reaction feats.
Fake Out actually never says you reload - you flourish the weapon, rather than discharge it, though it is required to be loaded. I'm not entirely sure what the developer's intention is there, to be honest.
Fake Out actually never says you reload - you flourish the weapon, rather than discharge it, though it is required to be loaded. I'm not entirely sure what the developer's intention is there, to be honest.- Fake-out (if not at level 2, later)Fake-out is good but costs your reload to do an Aid. I don't know if everyone want to waste a class feat slot + your reaction + a reload action to give just a +1 circumstance bonus to some one. It's just to expensive specially when compared to other reaction feats.
If nothing else, it forces you into ending the turn reloaded instead of being able to end empty and use risky reload with your most accurate attack. Bandolier builds and dual-wielding repeater builds don't care, but 2h builds have issues with it.
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Fake Out actually never says you reload - you flourish the weapon, rather than discharge it, though it is required to be loaded. I'm not entirely sure what the developer's intention is there, to be honest.- Fake-out (if not at level 2, later)Fake-out is good but costs your reload to do an Aid. I don't know if everyone want to waste a class feat slot + your reaction + a reload action to give just a +1 circumstance bonus to some one. It's just to expensive specially when compared to other reaction feats.
The current state of knowledge is that Fake Out doesn't discharge your weapon, so all you spend is your reaction. Given that the wording doesn't state that you fire - as Arcaian already pointed out - and it would be a terrible feat if you had, that PFS note on Nethys likely corresponds to what the feat is actually supposed to do. It's also called "Fake Out" not "Distracting Shot" or something.
If nothing else, it forces you into ending the turn reloaded instead of being able to end empty and use risky reload with your most accurate attack. Bandolier builds and dual-wielding repeater builds don't care, but 2h builds have issues with it.
With the above in mind and the fact that Aid scales on a crit, Fake Out quite quickly becomes a great alternative to Risky Reload. It is more party-dependent, as you need a good second damage dealer in the party, but that is usually manageable. For example, if I had a two-handed fighter, a magus or a rogue in the party, I'd very much value the "two-action activity plus reload, followed by Fake Out" game plan over that Risky Reload game plan. By level 10 with Called Shot, I'd not even see it as a contest anymore. The only issue with two-handed builds I've noticed is that Sniper has to drop stealth for it to work. But I think that is generally still a good idea and a no-brainer if you couldn't Hide. Neither Vanguard or Spellshot have any problem at all.
But that is subjective, I guess, as I am also bored to death by Risky Reload. If I wanted that kind of playstyle, I'd ask my GM if I could reflavour a bow as a semi-auto crossbow a la that Van Helsing movie and play a flurry ranger. I have done that, in fact. Great fun if you only plan on doing it for a short while.
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I didn’t take running reload with my pistolero, and I wouldn’t want to give anything up to get it. I feel like gunslinger’s way got sold as a bundle of goodies, but in reality, it is the reload option that really makes or breaks the way. I wonder how many people who feel like running reload is a feat tax feel like the slinger’s reload for their favorite way is too niche or not a star goodie of the class option.
It seems like a more mobile, sliding around, almost bullet dancer way that basically had a slinger’s reload as running reload, and was very acrobatic would be a good additional option to add.
I also used a gunner’s bandolier and risky reload a fair bit. A feat that let you move and draw a weapon (that could interact with the bandolier) would have been awesome.
In an effort to find alternative solutions to "just get rid of reload", I'd like to float Dubious Scholar's suggestion from page 1 again. Basically, make Interacting to Reload count as Activating an item for the purposes of magical and alchemical ammunition. More on that later.
First, let's add a twist to that. For the styles of weapons we have, IRL it was very common for people to make their own ammunition. It was much more "normal" that the weird things we see on Golarion. Basically just melting lead, putting it into a portable mould, rolling a bit of paper, measuring the powder and putting it all together (later on at least). But what if it wasn't? What if we just took the general idea and carried it over to the strange alchemical ammunition? Instead of making reloading fun in and of itself, which seems borderline impossible to do, we could just make the things you actually load into your weapon more fun and versatile. That should probably achieve the same effect in the end? Probably?
To be more specific, we partially cannibalize the Munitions Crafter (MC) feat line. As a baseline class feature, probably level 1 or 3, you gain the usual basic alchemy benefits (Advanced Alchemy, infused reagents, Alchemical Crafting feat) but limited only to alchemical ammunition. Infused reagents equal to your level plus 1, so it isn't quite so limited early on. I've no clear idea about how far we can stretch the level limitation, but it definitely has to be scaling, even if it's just via later features (not feats!). That would give you two pieces of special ammo per level per day (plus two more), which should rather quickly be as much as you'd need for every shot (not counting Risky Reload). Possibly add a Perpetual Infusions-style feature later as well, but not necessarily. At the end of the day, especially if we get even more ammo types, you will have more flexibility in this regard than the other ranged martials.
If we add those two things together, we achieve two things. First, reload weapons become more inherently desirable, as it is now not two dead actions vs one dead action, but at worst the same. If you have a reload feat(ure), you actually have an advantage. Second, the gunslinger would now have a broader niche that isn't limited to "make guns/crossbows not suck". Two birds, one(-ish) stone.
I know this path was discarded during the design process, but I for one think it should be revisited!
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Double dice as a basis also clash with striking runes and weapon damage dice options. I doubt that Paizo are willing to write even more rules to make that fit somehow. I feel like it's really against the design principles of the system, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.
I'm heavily debating Alchemical Shot versus elemental ammo from Treasure Vault for the role of "abuse enemy weaknesses".
They're kind of a wash on actions required, but Alchemical Shot has that awful misfire chance. On the other hand it adds higher persistent damage and can hit more damage types (as well as circumvent resistances since it fully converts the attack).
Higher level elemental ammo kicks in sooner than Alchemical Shot upgrades damage though.
And there's the question of this from the rules:
"When using magic ammunition, use your ranged weapon’s fundamental runes to determine the attack modifier and damage dice. Don’t add the effects of your weapon’s property runes unless the ammunition states otherwise—the ammunition creates its own effects"Now strictly speaking, alchemical ammo is not magic ammo, but the CRB doesn't have alchemical ammo. So it's unclear if property runes are meant to apply or not with it.
I think it is a clear case of "why not both"? If you don't want to risk the misfire or just want to use other actions, for example if the enemy has a very high AC, use the ammo. If you feel free to act or don't have the appropriate ammo, use Alchemical Shot. Alchemical Shot is a bit easier to keep up without designated feats, as the cheapest bombs will do just fine, so you have a little more freedom there. That said, even the cheaper elemental ammo can still hit weaknesses, but the damage gets a bit meagre, if you catch my drift?
As far as the rules question goes, I don't think it applies and isn't supposed to apply. If they wanted that rule to apply, they would have stated it somewhere in G&G or in some of the CRB errata since then. This issue was already mentioned within days after the book came out, after all.
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The longbow also does less damage on a crit and has to deal with the horrible volley trait. And deals the worst physical damage type.
It's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Most people consider the short bow the default weapon because of how bad volley is in close quarters dungeons.
That is definitely true, but as the designated devil's advocate here - my Tyrant of Dispater just had his happy ending, but ya know, old habits :D - I feel it necessary to set things a little more into perspective. People tend to make the "longbow is not the point of comparison" argument like here and then forget to do the same for the reload weapons side of the argument.
Because the shortbow is a one-handed weapon, except when you shoot it. While handedness is less important at range, it is still a balancing factor. Therefore, the point of comparison is not the jezail wielded in two hands, the harmona gun or the arquebus. Even with reload hand-switching shenanigans (which fatal aim guns can't even do), those are two-handed weapons. No, the actual direct equivalents - one-handed, two-handed to actually use - are the dueling pistol and the clan pistol.
And that comparison is even less flattering, taking the shortbow as the proper point of comparison. Same damage on a hit, same range (dueling pistol) or slightly longer range that rarely matters (clan pistol). The average damage difference on a crit when just comparing the weapons is as follows:
-> (shortbow vs pistol in that order)
- 4 (level 1-3, no striking; 12.5 vs 16.5)
- 8 (level 4-11, striking; 19.5 vs 27.5)
- 6.5 (level 12-18, greater striking; 32 vs 38.5)
- 5 (level 19 and 20, major striking; 44.5 vs 49.5)That is very significant at level 1-3 and even quite good until level 11, declining in quality the further you get to the end. So about half the game. After that, HP pools are so massive that you really need several instances of this to really feel the difference.
But now we need to consider that these weapons do not...
I disagree a bit with your assessment of the handedness of these weapons, particularly with the Jezail which CAN be fired with one hand. And I value range increments more than most players. But I want to acknowledge I don't entirely disagree with you, and I'm not saying conclusively that guns don't need a tune up. But my point is it isn't as simple as "wtf the same damage dice but I have to reload this is broken." Which is how the post I quoted read.
Guns use a different paradigm, which makes them hard to compare. But it is also what makes them interesting.
One weird thing about guns is each one clearly has a specific build they are ideal for, in a much stronger sense than other weapons. For melee, all you really need to sweat is whether your weapon should be finesse or not, and reach or agile for certain builds. Otherwise it doesn't hugely matter if your fighter uses a great pick or a scythe. That does not feel like the case with guns. Using a single dueling pistol is a bad idea for the vast majority of builds, which limits character concepts some. But you can build a concept around a the mechanics of a specific gun.
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I disagree a bit with your assessment of the handedness of these weapons, particularly with the Jezail which CAN be fired with one hand.
Worth noting that it's not a true one-handed weapon. It's more like a 1+ weapon because you can't hold anything in your free hand to fire it (and you can't simply Release to switch grips). Doesn't really change your point, but worth pointing out since the game buries this information in the trait description and some people talk about it like it's a 1d8 one handed weapon with no questions asked.
Guns use a different paradigm, which makes them hard to compare. But it is also what makes them interesting.
I get what you're saying but I'm not sure it's as esoteric as you're making it out to be. The "different paradigm" is just that you have to spend an action doing nothing in between attacks. It's not like they're operating in some completely new and unique design space.
Something I'll definitely agree on is that guns (and crossbows) are more clearly separated into build niches than other weapon types.
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I disagree a bit with your assessment of the handedness of these weapons, particularly with the Jezail which CAN be fired with one hand.Worth noting that it's not a true one-handed weapon. It's more like a 1+ weapon because you can't hold anything in your free hand to fire it (and you can't simply Release to switch grips). Doesn't really change your point, but worth pointing out since the game buries this information in the trait description and some people talk about it like it's a 1d8 one handed weapon with no questions asked.
Guns use a different paradigm, which makes them hard to compare. But it is also what makes them interesting.I get what you're saying but I'm not sure it's as esoteric as you're making it out to be. The "different paradigm" is just that you have to spend an action doing nothing in between attacks. It's not like they're operating in some completely new and unique design space.
It isn't just reload, though. Any given firearm is more than just "a short bow but less efficient." Concussive, fatal instead of deadly, wildly different effective range, the ability to stick a reinforced stock or bayonet on it to use it in melee, all of this sets guns apart from bows. And that's without touching the really weird ones like scatter or double barrel. Or using the bandolier of pistols with quick draw.
You can disagree that all of those things is enough to balance out the drawbacks of reload, but it is a lot of stuff bows don't have.
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the ability to stick a reinforced stock or bayonet on it to use it in melee
This isn't a real difference as they are separate weapons from the gun: there isn't a functional difference between a gun with an attached weapon and a bow user with a free hand weapon in their reloading hand. In fact, the bow user is better off with this as Bladed Gauntlets are a thing and they are superior to the attached weapons in most cases.
I'd also say it's pretty neutral. It's not like either side cares too much about subpar melee weapons either. Even with ABP and/or Blazons, they are backup weapons at best, used in case you are cornered by AoO people with no way out or are Swallowed Whole.
The "Swallowed Whole" part is also why I would prefer the bayonet over the reinforced stock, despite the reinforced stock being otherwise more useful.
On a related note, would you allow the gauntlet bow to be used with Fake Out if its hand were occupied? You are technically not attacking (you are only faking an attack), so the free-hand trait restrictions wouldn't apply. That interpretation seems rather dodgy, I must say.
You aren't wielding the gauntlet bow while that hand is occupied, so that breaks the requirement on fake out.
I'm guessing you are referring to this part of the free-hand trait: "When you're not wielding anything and not otherwise using the hand, you can use abilities that require you to have a hand free as well as those that require you to be wielding a weapon in that hand." Yes, that seems to be the correct answer. Thanks ^^
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Version 1 of a possible gunslinger fix. I've also added Crafting to the gunslinger's initial proficiencies. The extensive maintenance your weapons require alone would justify that part. The first feature is definitely gunslinger-only, the second feature should really just be a general rule. As it sadly isn't, I have included it here.
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Ammunition Specialist (lvl 1 class feature): As all gunslingers, by necessity or choice, you learned to make your own bullets. You gain the alchemist's infused reagents class feature, gaining a number of reagents each day equal to your level.
You also gain the Alchemical Crafting feat, and you can select the formula for basic level-0 black powder ammunition in addition to the common formulas you would normally select for the feat. You know the formulas for ammunition you have learned by heart, so you don't need a formula book for them.
You gain infused reagents (a pool of reagents usable to make alchemical items) and advanced alchemy (allowing you to make alchemical items during your daily preparations without the normal cost or time expenditure). You gain batches of infused reagents per day equal to your level plus 1, which you can use to create only alchemical ammunition. Your advanced alchemy level for creating these is 1 and doesn't increase on its own. If you use a batch of infused reagents to create basic level-0 ammunition such as black powder cartridges or black powder doses, you produce 10 rounds of ammunition.
If you are at least an expert in Crafting, your advanced alchemy level for alchemical ammunition increases to your level – 3 (minimum 1) and each time you gain a level (including the one you became an expert), you can add the formula for one common alchemical ammunition item to the formulas you know. These new formulas can be for any level of item you can create.
If you are at least a master in Crafting, your advanced alchemy level for alchemical ammunition increases to your level. If you are legendary in Crafting, when using advanced alchemy to make alchemical ammunition during your daily preparations, you can create three pieces of ammunition with each batch of reagents instead of two.
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Expert Loading (level 1 class feature): You have loaded your weapons thousands of times, so one more step is of no consequence to you. When you Interact to reload a weapon with at least reload 1, as part of that action you can Activate the piece of ammunition you are loading. This does not apply if Activating the ammunition takes two or more actions. You can use this feature with any action that allows you to Interact to reload, such as your Slinger’s Reload, but remember that the ammunition is deactivated at the end of your turn as normal.
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I mostly dislike guns for doing the exact same things that pf1 did with them; giving them downsides that exist for the gunslinger to solve, and upsides that only the gunslinger can really take advantage of.
I mean, hypothetically a gunslinger with a crossbow and a precision ranger with a crossbow are both comparably good with a crossbow.
The issue is that for the guns that are fatal weapons nothing else a class gives you is going to matter as much as accuracy does.
So the best two classes for fatal weapons are pretty much always going to be the two that get the best accuracy (fighter and gunslinger) and the fighter doesn't have any tools for using reloading weapons, and I'm not sure it should.
There are a few not fatal guns a ranger can use though, and crossbow ace with a simple crossbow functions just fine.
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Expert Loading (level 1 class feature): You have loaded your weapons thousands of times, so one more step is of no consequence to you. When you Interact to reload a weapon with at least reload 1, as part of that action you can Activate the piece of ammunition you are loading. This does not apply if Activating the ammunition takes two or more actions. You can use this feature with any action that allows you to Interact to reload, such as your Slinger’s Reload, but remember that the ammunition is deactivated at the end of your turn as normal.
Not sure about the other thing (too many words) but for this part its much easier to just say:
"Whenever you would reload a weapon you may activate the immunition as a subordinate action. You cannot use this ability to activate a piece of ammunition whose activation takes longer than the reload."
That makes it a rider effect instead of a replacement effect. Removes the need for explanatory text (saves space). Simplifies action economy text (saves space). Doesn't let you cheat in any high activation ammunition, while still halving the time.
The goal was to be as precise and close to common 2e phrasing as possible. You are correct that it could be phrased more simply, but your suggestions unfortunately are too far away from common phrasing in this edition. 2e really doesn't use the term "subordinate action" in rules text, except in the section about subordinate actions. Instead it is almost always some variation of "as a part of X action you can do X", so functionally your version and my version are the same as far as I can tell. "Whose activation takes longer than the reload" is also not appropriate, as these things are measured in actions, not time. And all reloads are 1 action, even reload 2 isn't an activity.
The "Interact to reload" part has to stay in to match the rest of the gunslinger, especially the reload feats/features. Same for "weapon with reload 1", plus this avoids any possible confusion with repeating or anything similar that might come in the future. The second sentence is probably the one I dislike the most, but I've no idea how to make it better. I think you can see my problem ^^
My last sentence can technically be cut, but I've noticed that Paizo quite frequently do this too. Yes, it costs more space, but it also helps new players or players who are new to the class to find their bearings. Experienced players can also use those reminders once in a while. In this case, I want to make sure new people know that, yes, it is supposed to be an additional benefit on top of your Slinger's Reload and remind them of the limitations of Activating ammo, which you can easily forget. So I definitely want to keep that in.
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Here is a marginally changed attempt no. 2:
Expert Loading (level 1 class feature): You have loaded your weapons thousands of times, so one more step is of no consequence to you. When you Interact to reload a weapon with at least reload 1, you can Activate the loaded ammunition as part of that action. This does not apply if Activating the ammunition takes two or more actions. You can use this feature with any action that allows you to Interact to reload, such as your Slinger’s Reload, but remember that the ammunition is deactivated at the end of your turn as normal.
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And all reloads are 1 action, even reload 2 isn't an activity
This isn't exactly true: "If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn." So reload 2 may be an activity if the DM wants it to be.
Hunter's Aim lets a ranger shoot with the accuracy of a Gunslinger on that shot, functionally. And presumably they've been built for precision damage added on.
With Sniper's Aim, the Gunslinger can pull ahead again though.
Well yes, not even Fighter can compete with the accuracy of that feat.Hunter's Aim lets a ranger shoot with the accuracy of a Gunslinger on that shot, functionally. And presumably they've been built for precision damage added on.With Sniper's Aim, the Gunslinger can pull ahead again though.
Not quite, Incredible Aim is available to all fighters. If you really wanted to, you could also get Archer's Aim from the Archer archetype as that is a straight upgrade, but that's more of a Free Archetype thing.
Sniper's Aim comes online two levels earlier and does things for kickback weapons, but that's sniper-only. For some reason, gunslinger is the only ranged martial that doesn't get a general "+2 to attack roll for two actions, ignore concealment" feat. Well, the reason is almost certainly protecting Sniper's Aim's niche, but with at least 3 other feats of the same type floating around, that's really flimsy to me.
And all reloads are 1 action, even reload 2 isn't an activityThis isn't exactly true: "If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn." So reload 2 may be an activity if the DM wants it to be.
Good catch ^^. The odd thing is that the base assumption seems to be separate actions, as suggested by the "Interact to Reload" note in the gunslinger section. It says "The slinger's reload action from each gunslinger way, as well as many feats, give the ability to Interact to reload a weapon. This is enough to reload a weapon that takes 1 Interact action to reload, but only provides one of the Interact actions needed to reload a weapon with reload 2 or greater. As normal, you can provide the remaining Interact actions separately.". Not that this will come up a lot, as reload 2 is terrible, but I would like that to be more clear in the original reload section.
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Side note to everyone, do you feel like my class feature suggestions crowd the Alchemist's space too much? Up until expert it is almost identical to existing feats, if a bit more limited than most. But after that is new territory, even with the Alchemical Sciences Investigator existing, so that is one of my biggest worries.
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So, I've decided to make a no-budget attempt at what is basically "Gunslingers+" that I'll eventually release for free. Homebrew errata (mostly based on what we will certainly get anyway), new feats, features, items, optional rules and just general advice. The goal above all else is to provide a balanced and fun experience, not to make the class overpowered to "feel good". This is done under the assumption that the gunslinger is a rather niche "product". As such the amount of stuff even the very dedicated supporters at Paizo can put in (or sneak in ^^) will be quite limited. Arcadia, when it eventually comes, will be a big opportunity, but it looks like it will be a while. Until then and just because it is fun, I'll try the fill the gap!
To that end, I'd love some advice from the authors, Mr. Sayre in particular. I can extrapolate a lot from existing material, but any further insight you can and want to give would be awesome! No matter how general or even vague, it will be helpful or at least interesting ^^
For example, I'm currently looking at a generic version of the shootist bandolier, i.e. one that works for all repeating weapons. From the fact that neither G&G nor TV had anything of the sort and even the original is AP-only material, I'm pretty sure that this is not supposed to be a thing. At least not for weapons like the barricade buster, though an air repeater version would certainly be ok. That's why I've left this as an optional rule with the explicit reminder that it'll not be balanced in many cases. Thoughts?
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I would really recommend reading what Michael Sayre has to say in This Thread where he breaks down the math between a composite bow fighter and a sniper as well as some of the real-world to pathfinder theory that they used while making the class.
Its also mentioned Here talking more about the feeling of a shortbow fighter vs a gunslinger then the actual math. Both of these conversation really helped me put gunslinger into perspective and enjoy the class more.
I would consider them mandatory reading for anyone thinking of brewing up some homes.
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I would really recommend reading what Michael Sayre has to say in This Thread where he breaks down the math between a composite bow fighter and a sniper as well as some of the real-world to pathfinder theory that they used while making the class.
Its also mentioned Here talking more about the feeling of a shortbow fighter vs a gunslinger then the actual math. Both of these conversation really helped me put gunslinger into perspective and enjoy the class more.
I would consider them mandatory reading for anyone thinking of brewing up some homes.
If you have to read two posts saying that guns/crossbows are actively bad because they had to protect the niche of Shortbows and Longbows makes you like the class more idk what to tell you.
Spending multiple feats, actions, etc just to be equal to the guy who randomly picked up a bow feels bad. Even more so when the whole reason guns became so important is that literally anyone could use them with minimal training and the same or better effectiveness as bows. It takes months just to be okay at archery, it takes at most a few weeks to be good at using a firearm.
But sure, "shortbows aren't the best weapon" they are just the easiest to use with no action penalty, no feat requirement, no weird item requirement, no weird class ability requires. Yeah, "reload weapons aren't bad" they just require 3 times more thinking, multiple times more actions spent, multiple feats, and the grand reward if you are lucky is dealing the same damage as the shortbow/longbow
What they have done is enable the flavour of a Gunslinger - which is appealing to many people but not everyone. At a point which does not invalidate the base Fighter Archer. The action cost of the reload is offset by the initial deed and combining actions that you likely need to do anyway like move or demoralize or feint. There are some good reactions in the class and some nice 2 attacks with no MAP options at mid level.
But you have to pay feats for it all. The Fighter is bascially equivalent just taking Point Blank Shot. There is also no way that the Gunslinger can step up at level 10 like the Fighter does with extra reaction and AoO, or agile flurry madness. The big power boost Gunslinger gets is Hair Trigger. These sort of start of encounter bonuses are not well figured into the anaylses that most people run.
The bottom line is the Gunslinger is playing catchup to the Fighter. The Fighter is always better and has more options, but the Gunslinger can get close. It is nearly the same power but it has done it in a very different way. So play it if you like the flavour. Otherwise don't. To my mind that is pretty much where I'd like the Gunslinger pitched.
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Maybe I'm putting the data into the damage calculation tool wrong, but as far as I can tell, an arquebus isn't beating a PBS 14 base str composite shortbow at any level except 5 and 6 vs an equal level enemy. Against a higher level opponent, even only +1, the arquebus's damage falls off a cliff (somewhere between 10str no PBS shortbow and longbow users). Against level -2 opponents, it pulls ahead slightly but equalizes at 9. Risky reload missing is that detrimental to your damage potential.
This is, obviously, ignoring the other benefits of being a bow fighter like bow spec, debilitating shot, only having a single level 1 feat tax instead of being taxed at 2 and 4, an action economy capable of using magic ammo, less affected by action economy disruption, blah, blah, blah
Paired shots repeating hand crossbow outdamages everyone at 11+, but is in the middle of the pack 4-10.
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dueling pistol vs bow is 20-40% on a two-action routine and 20-30% if they're both full attacking over two rounds (since guns have uneven attack routines).
Drops down to like 10% if the bow user doesn't make map-10 attacks, but then the bow user gets an extra action every round to do whatever they want, while still doing more damage than the gunslinger on average.
What's the difference between the arquebus gunslinger and the bow fighter according to the damage tool? It's not surprising that one of them would come out on top considering how complex the factors here are, but I'd expect a tolerance of 5-10% would be an acceptable level of difference for the game's balance.
6-9% comparing two bow attacks (2 actions) vs two gun attacks (3 actions). A 3rd bow attack would increase it further, but you're more likely to use that 3rd action on ammo, debilitating shot, moving, single action spell, etc, etc.
That's the primary issue here. That guns have both a damage deficit (at most levels) and an action economy deficit (at all levels). And we're using the arquebus here, anything less is going to produce worse results.
You can actually split the difference here and do 10str with PBS in order to improve your saves and/or skills vs the slinger instead of winning more on damage.
Paired RHC beats arquebus by 10-14% after level 11.
Edit: vs a +1 enemy the difference starts to jump after level 7 and goes something like 9-14% and gets worse as the level gap widens.
dueling pistol vs bow is 20-40% on a two-action routine and 20-30% if they're both full attacking over two rounds (since guns have uneven attack routines).
Drops down to like 10% if the bow user doesn't make map-10 attacks, but then the bow user gets an extra action every round to do whatever they want, while still doing more damage than the gunslinger on average.
So this is where Running Reload, Risky Reload, Pistol Twirl etc come into it. To do something else useful with that extra action or to avoid having to spend it.
Then you have sometimes an action benefit at the start of the encounter from the Initial Deed
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I would really recommend reading what Michael Sayre has to say in This Thread where he breaks down the math between a composite bow fighter and a sniper as well as some of the real-world to pathfinder theory that they used while making the class.
Its also mentioned Here talking more about the feeling of a shortbow fighter vs a gunslinger then the actual math. Both of these conversation really helped me put gunslinger into perspective and enjoy the class more.
I would consider them mandatory reading for anyone thinking of brewing up some homes.
Oh yeah, I remember reading the second post, but not the first one. Thanks ^^
Overall, I'm quite alright with how bows work and are balanced, composite or not. He is absolutely right in that changing that wouldn't be healthy. Or, I would say, necessary, really. Because, if you look at the bigger picture (all weapons and party members), it isn't really a major issue. The only case where it becomes weird is when compared to other ranged weapons. And that is where I disagree with Mr. Sayre. Yes, a bit of difference in how fast and easily you can hit peak performance is fine. Needing an entire class dedicated to that and several feats on top is just excessive. Especially as only 1 of the 6 current Ways will ever reach that peak performance. Maybe 2 if you really optimize a dual-wield Pistolero via Ammunition Thaumaturgy and Paired Shots.
Talking about the direct sniper/ranged fighter comparison, I don't find it particularly helpful or realistic. It only compares the one Way that actually does good damage and even then it makes a lot of assumptions.
(1) For one, that the sniper crits on its OSOK shot - that's a big assumption. Crit chance aside, it requires the sniper to roll Stealth for initiative, which is often a problem.
(2) Two, that the fighter is less stealthy than the gunslinger. Why? Yes, the fighter has to put one trained into Stealth, but that is literally all the difference. That is a really minor and easy investment.
(3) Three, that the fighter is less likely to crit. I would put a huge asterisk on that. At level 2, given that both start Hidden (neither has an advantage in that), they have the exact same crit chance. Only after that is the gunslinger more likely to Hide again, thus having a higher crit chance, as the fighter really doesn't need it most of the time. However, that is assuming that the sniper can always find cover or concealment they can Hide in/behind, which is incredibly unlikely. At level 6 the sniper can take Sniper's Aim and at level 8 the fighter can just take Incredible Aim if he really wants to.
(4) Four, it ignores the very realistic possibility that the fighter will just use those feats it doesn't need for peak performance to spec twice into ranger for the dedication and Hunted Shot. Yes, that's a bit powergame-y, but it is what I see regularly, because it is simply that good.
(5) The gunslinger is using Risky Reload and Cover Fire. The latter is literally worse than a regular Strike when facing opponent that don't use ranged Strikes, which is the vast majority for most campaigns. The former has a substantial risk attached to it, quite possibly costing you your second shot, making this rotation even more unreliable. In turn, the fighter risks nothing and essentially performs a better Strike with Assisting Shot, which is much better for the team.
(6) Lastly, it says that the shortbow and arquebus are equivalent weapons, when they are really not. The latter has way too many additional restrictions to be a direct equivalent. The direct equivalent being the dueling pistol is a hill I'll absolutely die on ;)
That said, the thing I will focus on primarily is making the gameplay more smooth and interesting, as well as present more options. If the gunslinger has to sacrifice some pure damage output for other things, then fine. I'll make sure that those other things are at least worth it, which I would currently question.
For example, some clunk:
- the solution to the drifter's and dual-wield pistolero's reload problems shouldn't be to go outside of their class, because the class solution (Dual-Weapon Reload) is terrible
- The gunslinger shouldn't be functionally prohibited from using special ammo
- There is no reason for firearms and slings not to have an 8th level "you aim for +2" feat like literally every bow user
- Non-gunslingers (and gunslingers) shouldn't have to wait until level 4 or 6 and potentially have to invest multiple class feats for basic functionality like Running Reload
- Pistolero's Retort is either less useful than the alternative (dual-wielding with Paired Shots) or literally worthless (one-gun without ABP to keep a gauntlet bow even halfway relevant)
- Pistolero's Challenge is harming your own team and its upgrade is literally a trap
- Spellshot being a "class archetype" with a dedication that I wouldn't even take with Free Archetype
Some things that would make it more interesting (maybe via "other things"):
- Fake Out is so close to an auto-pick that I'm considering making it a 3rd level class feature
- the other new class features I mentioned previously
- possibly a set of 1st-level class feats based on your Way to give them a little more character than basically just the reload early on (I really liked that on the champion)
- a more straightforward mid-range Way
- one-handed firearms and crossbows that cannot be dual-wielded (1+ hands), but actually allow for a "one pistol" playstyle that isn't automatically second rate
Things like that.
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Pistolero's challenge was a lot of fun in play for me. You challenge someone who doesn't want to focus on fighting you, and you make it difficult for them to attack you and it is an awesome action waster as well as damage buff. Challenge the enemy that would otherwise want to beat on your fighter engaged in melee with it. Do it from behind the cover of the bar in the saloon this brawl broke out in. Just don't challenge the awesome archer who is already in concealment and cover while you are standing in the middle of an alley. Pistoleros actually like to hide a lot too and playing cat and mouse with an enemy until you can have them flat-footed and debuffed and them blast them with dual pistol shots before dropping one pistol and going for risky reloads to finish them off fulfilled all the gunslinger ranged duel fantasy i could ever imagine. Our campaign ended at level 9 but the pistolero who didn't try to do the same thing every round, but could do several different things over the course of an encounter really felt powerful and fun to play.
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I think a common complaint about PF2 is that the game is very difficult and frustrating when you character has one specific set of actions that they are trying to do all the time in every encounter, and the game is much more interesting (and easier) when your character is capable of responding to the tactical situation of the encounter with different tools and resources.
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i kind of feel like they shouldnt have given bows deadly, like, it kind of makes it hard to be excited for guns doing crazy damage on crits as their thing when bows also do exceptional damage on crits, just a bit less so, without all the downsides that guns have, like at high level you are looking at 9d12 base damage (average 58.5) vs 11D8 base damage (average 48.5)for guns vs bows, yeah guns hit harder, especially early on (average 19.5 vs 13.5 at level 1), but bows still have awesome crits, and like, are all those downsides guns have really worth like 10 extra damage that only occurs on a crit?
edit i am ignoring property runes, specialization damage and flat damage since that is applicable to both equally