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As some of you may know, this class is very near and dear to my heart and I like to write absurdly long texts ^^. Naturally, I have some opinions, because I want this class to be as enjoyable and good as can be. While a lot of this might sound harsh, I have a lot of respect and admiration for the people who made this content. Comments I have seen on other sites that claim their work to be bad or shoddy are simply wrong, imo, and that is not the message I want to send with this.
The developers and quite a few of you also know a lot more about the intricacies of the game than I do - especially the mathematics part ;) - so I wouldn't mind some feedback for my feedback :D. Some more design insights would be awesome *hint* *hint* ;)!
For some background, I've played several snipers and one pistolero so far, one of those snipers for quite a while (6 months or so?). After having seen it in action, I want to play a vanguard next. I'll never play a drifter (not a fantasy I'm into & too weak mechanically) or triggerbrand (not my fantasy and I dislike combination weapons). I would consider playing a spellshot as long as I don't even have to think about that awful dedication - jay for understanding GMs!
To establish the basis for my arguments, let's start with the class itself. As a ranged character, your main job will always be offence, mainly damage (dead is the best condition after controlled ^^), but also crowd control and debuffs. The gunslinger is notoriously outclassed in this regard by their main competitors, the ranged fighter and ranger. This is a view I share. Not to the extent that "the gunslinger is a support class", but still. I would also like to add that "but Fake Out!" (the feat everyone talks about) is not a sufficient argument to justify that discrepancy, as I have seen some people attempt to do. Fake Out is awesome, but not that awesome.
The class is also viewed as quite inflexible with their action economy, to the point of being very repetitive. Once again, this is largely true, though in this case I also have to add the part that people tend to forget here - in practice the same is true for the competition, though for them it is a choice. If anything, the most praiseworthy thing about the gunslinger is that with a few levels under your belt and the right feats, you actually can do interesting things at range and not just Strike a million times every turn. The Way of the Vanguard is leading the way - as it should :D - by having that capability from the very start, even if the "range" part suffers a bit. There is still room for improvement, though, especially in how long it takes to get to this point. For example, the sniper doesn't feel like it really comes online until level 6 and only really gets going at level 9 when you actually have some options. A ranger or fighter feel done with their core build by level 4 - or level 1 in case of the Flurry Ranger.
The third part people will criticize is the "feast or famine" playstyle not being fun or rewarding. No matter if your weapon has fatal or not, the very nature of reload weapons is that you have to crit to even try to keep up. Evaluating this is much more subjective and is strongly connected to the lacking offence of the class. This is rather unavoidable due to the gunslinger leaning very much into the "all of your eggs in one basket" approach like the investigator or swashbuckler, so "fixing" this is not really possible. Dealing with the lacking offence in some form would greatly help here.
A special mention goes to misfire. In my opinion the "misfire on Strike failure" mechanic is used much, much too liberally. Such a huge risk should be accompanied by similarly substantial rewards, which is rarely the case. In the case of Risky Reload - all fine and dandy, because it is a very powerful effect. Alchemical Shot? Questionable, but ok. Scatter Blast? What? Chip damage in a moderate radius for functionally 3 actions is not very powerful even without misfire. It doesn't even trigger weaknesses on practically anything besides swarms. Smoke Curtain - while weak - takes a much more correctly measured approach by only causing misfire on critical failure in turn for a moderately useful effect.
I personally consider all non-repeating reload weapons to be underpowered, really without exception. Concussive is very helpful at lower levels (skeletons say hello!), the slight damage advantage is neat and the additional range beyond 60ft functionally doesn't matter. However, reload 1 alone is a massive burden on your playstyle, action economy and consequently your offensive output (not just damage). And, with all due respect, I do not feel Paizo have taken that into account nearly as much as they should have, particularly when it comes to classes that are not the gunslinger. I also do not expect this to substantially change in 2e, so my focus will be on class mechanics, rather than changing the weapons.
One thing I will say, though, why are there no permanent "silencer" modifications? Is it for lore reasons? The noise guns produce is clearly not factored into the balance and the shobad longrifle reinforces that, with the caveat of being an AP product. This is the main reason why I often will decide against using a gun. Yes, combat is loud, but one shot from my weapon and now all of China knows we are here, making any kind of infiltration or subtlety nearly impossible if you have a gunslinger along. Come on. Please :(
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The damage situation should be eased up a little bit, but only enough to narrow the rift to a gap. As much as I loathe the common "Hunted Shot + Strike + 3rd action" gameplan, making something that is just as good while also having access to cool support feats isn't a fair solution. That said, any good and concrete answer to this requires much more knowledge of mathematics than I have, so I will leave this topic to someone more qualified.
Instead, I want to talk about way of making the gunslinger more interesting to play, apart from having more feats to choose from ofc. The sniper isn't the only one who should be able to aim their gun, just saying ;)
Variable action feats and "metamagic"
The thing the gunslinger needs most is some more flexibility without paying several higher level feats for it. The first idea I would milk for this is variable action spells, which is rarely translated to feats. You'll only get one good shot per round anyway, so might as well have the ability to make it count as much as you want. Three-action variants should probably include a reload possibility (not necessarily guaranteed).
Hitting a similar vein are "metamagic" feats, i.e. ones that give actions that modify your next Strike like Fulminating Shot. Ideally something that isn't just damage. Compared to activities, these have the option of being used for that big moment in combination with said activities.
More straightforward Ways
The gunslinger lacks a regular "gunner" Way that just uses it's weapon with no fancy melee-centric abilities or the "find cover or don't have a subclass" minigame of the pre-12/15 sniper. I'm personally in the market for something more interesting (I like that particular minigame), but from what I read the "vanilla" feel is the thing quite a few people actually want.
Also, alchemy Way when? There are arguably more feats for it than any other Way, but it sadly doesn't exist D:
My opinion on the Pistolero hasn't changed since the playtest - it should be split into a one-gun and a dual-wield Way. Currently, it doesn't support either, really, but tries for a weird split. It does nothing for the highly offence of a one-gun build and it does nothing to smooth the truly repetitive jankiness that is two-gun builds. Pistol Twirl does more for the former than anything else. I also just really hate Pistolero's Retort. It is one of the most situational class features in the game and interferes with both playstyles that would use the Way.
Low-level active Way features
Until level 9, most Ways have clear differences, but the features only feel like they compensate for the awfulness that is reload. They really lack an active component you get very early on, like level 3 or so. Having a Strike-related active component here would be great to alleviate the "you do the exact same thing every turn" problem I've always experienced. I would like something that is not just a Strike replacement like Snagging Strike, which wouldn't solve anything, but something limited by some kind of resource that you can throw out occasionally. I hear focus points are still available, though that is probably more of a feat thing like on the ranger ^^.
Integrate special ammunition more
These are close to the "metamagic" options I talked about earlier, but they take your entire turn to use and block practically all your actual fun abilities for that same reason. A Reload + Activate an Item (ammo only) feat or Way feature would be rather boring, but it would do the trick. Before anyone yells "OP", this is literally just restoring functionality that bows already have.
Stances
I'm sure something interesting can be done with this.
Reload Feats are incredibly overpriced
This is more about classes other than the gunslinger. If you have to pay at least a 4th level feat for basic functionality and could just use a bow and be arguably just as good, that is a problem. Running Reload is really a 1st level feat that should be widely available, just saying ^^. As long as this is a thing, using reload weapons on other classes will always leave a bad taste in your mouth. Yes, I've said that plenty of times and yes, that is a hill I will die on :D.
Thus endeth the wall of text! I'm looking forward to your suggestions. I'd like to focus on fun improvements as much as possible, as I think the "gunslinger deals no damage" or "reload weapons are bad" part of the discussion really doesn't need more fuel than absolutely necessary, at least as far as the gunslinger is concerned. They were just necessary to explain my view on things.
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Not to spike the wheel of the conversation too much, but it may be that this is just a perception and expectation management problem.
Gunslinger is a non-core class. So the comparison to Fighter and Ranger is going to be a problem. Perhaps instead you should compare your expectations to the class with that of Swashbuckler, Inventor, and Investigator. Is Gunslinger any more of a fiddly, finicky, and problematic class to play than one of those?
If you want to be best in class for ranged damage, you should probably play a ranged Fighter or Ranger or maybe Rogue. Because those are core classes and are inherently easier to use for a core game mechanic like 'deal the most damage at range as possible'.
The choice of playing a Gunslinger is as much for the flavor and style of the character as it is for the game mechanics.
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Not to spike the wheel of the conversation too much, but it may be that this is just a perception and expectation management problem.
Gunslinger is a non-core class. So the comparison to Fighter and Ranger is going to be a problem. Perhaps instead you should compare your expectations to the class with that of Swashbuckler, Inventor, and Investigator. Is Gunslinger any more of a fiddly, finicky, and problematic class to play than one of those?
If you want to be best in class for ranged damage, you should probably play a ranged Fighter or Ranger or maybe Rogue. Because those are core classes and are inherently easier to use for a core game mechanic like 'deal the most damage at range as possible'.
The choice of playing a Gunslinger is as much for the flavor and style of the character as it is for the game mechanics.
Core or not, classes are balanced against each other. I mean, nobody is accusing the thaumaturge of being underpowered.
The only damage-focused Way being usually 15-20% behind on damage both in simulations and my actual play experience is anything but balanced. That is with an incredibly unfun Risky Reload build. Regular builds tend to do substantially worse.
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Not to spike the wheel of the conversation too much, but it may be that this is just a perception and expectation management problem.
Gunslinger is a non-core class. So the comparison to Fighter and Ranger is going to be a problem. Perhaps instead you should compare your expectations to the class with that of Swashbuckler, Inventor, and Investigator. Is Gunslinger any more of a fiddly, finicky, and problematic class to play than one of those?
If you want to be best in class for ranged damage, you should probably play a ranged Fighter or Ranger or maybe Rogue. Because those are core classes and are inherently easier to use for a core game mechanic like 'deal the most damage at range as possible'.
The choice of playing a Gunslinger is as much for the flavor and style of the character as it is for the game mechanics.
I'd question just how cool a class that makes a suboptimal weapon class almost as useful as a bow can ever be. If there was a class that focused on making the club, greatclub, and quarterstaff as useful as a general martial weapon but jumped through a ton of hoops to do so I doubt it would have many defenders.
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As a quick question does your group play AP's or Homebrews? I'm asking because the recent 'Treasure Vault' book with its expanded alchemical ammunition options makes Gunslingers much stronger.
This can be seen most clearly in how AP encounters are very frequently written with things like enemy resistances, weaknesses, regeneration etc.
The alchemical ammunition essentially give gunslingers the option to be a 'prepared martial' class, with a suite of bane, elemental, rare metal, and persistent damage options. Careful (or informed) selections shoot the gunslingers effective damage well ahead of other ranged options.
As an example from my table we are playing a certain AP and found ourselves facing a fort full of trolls and their minions. Gunslingers being able to target and exploit a damage weakness, inflict persistent damage to trigger that weakness, and negate regeneration all at once are doing the 'effective damage' of a small party with a handful of level 1 items.
This may sound like an explicitly cherrypicked example (it was the last set of encounters my group faced last week) this just shows how common it is for Paizo to put 'twists' on encounters beyond standard white room math tests. Think of how often hardness or resistance has all but shut down a bow weilding fighter or ranger for that specific encounter? Gunslingers get feat (and trait, and item) support to negate nearly all of that now.
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I wrote them off the moment I saw guns were for crit fishing
Even if you removed that and bumped the dice up. The nature of reload means they are still Ridgid and lower damage
But the lower damage is.. Mostly...a white board thing for my groups before nobody spends all 3 actions attacking
This said, bunker buster is pretty cool, shame gunslingers don't get point blank shot
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The new alchemical ammunition is a very welcome new change yeah.
But to look at the OP's points; I agree with a lot of that. I do like drifters, but there are some irritations. Like, Drifters can use their Reloading Strike with unarmed strikes or one-handed melee weapons. But the Sword and Pistol feat only works with actual weapons, not unarmed strikes. Because... why? What unarmed strike was so much better than a shortsword? Especially since you can more efficiently share runes between a gun and a melee weapon, than with an unarmed strike. Why this discrepancy?
And the other one, the straightforward gunner. The dude with the big overcompensation gun. Like the new orc one. Which was was that meant for? It's 2H so not the drifter or pistolero. It's got volley so not the vanguard. It's not a combination weapon so not triggerbrand. It's from the Eye of Terror so not Spellshot. So after eliminating everything else, I guess we're left with Sniper?
Sniper being the kinda remaining way for really unsubtle big guns, irks me a bit.
the "find cover or don't have a subclass" minigame of the pre-12/15 sniper
You can solve this at 2nd level, LONG before 12/15. Take an ancestry that grants an arcane, divine, occult innate cantrip and select Shield and then at 2nd, take Spell Trickster Dedication and the Barrier Shield feats. This allows you to cast Shield to create a solid barrier you can use for cover anywhere you want. It of course makes you turtle in place as it requires all your actions [Shield, Covered Reload, Strike], but it's still a way to fix the issue.
The dude with the big overcompensation gun.
For his, a Backpack Ballista works well as an opening big gun attack.
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After sometime my opinion still the same from release of G&G.
Gunslingers aren't bad. In fact they have many interesting feats and feature and even have a better critical options than fighters that take advantage of Fatal trait of firearms. Feats like Fatal Bullet, Final Shot (that's basically a ranged Overwhelming Blow without Deadly d12) make it's critical very devastating.
The problem is in firearms. The game designers developed them to not surpass the non-firearms ranged weapons but in practice they exaggerated with the caution and made firearms only useful for gunslinger. The main design of firearms are basically focused into you have a high-critical rate focused class like fighter and gunslingers with reload compression feats, specially Risky Reload.
Some people may point that the problem aren't in the firearms but in bows being too good. I partially agree but I remember that thrown weapons is also very good too due Returning Rune and Thrower's Bandolier.
I also agree with Karmagator about "Reload Feats are incredibly overpriced". But IMO in currently state there no space to a low-level solution.
In the end my hope is that someday the designers consider to add something like a Reload Rune that reduces reload by 1 to put the reload weapons like firearms in a position competitive to other options or if they fell that this is too much maybe they can restrict this rune to be a free action that add misfire if miss. But if we want to see the firearms being a viable option beyond the Risky Reload Gunslinger we need a more flexible solution like this.
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As a quick question does your group play AP's or Homebrews? I'm asking because the recent 'Treasure Vault' book with its expanded alchemical ammunition options makes Gunslingers much stronger.
This can be seen most clearly in how AP encounters are very frequently written with things like enemy resistances, weaknesses, regeneration etc.
The alchemical ammunition essentially give gunslingers the option to be a 'prepared martial' class, with a suite of bane, elemental, rare metal, and persistent damage options. Careful (or informed) selections shoot the gunslingers effective damage well ahead of other ranged options.
As an example from my table we are playing a certain AP and found ourselves facing a fort full of trolls and their minions. Gunslingers being able to target and exploit a damage weakness, inflict persistent damage to trigger that weakness, and negate regeneration all at once are doing the 'effective damage' of a small party with a handful of level 1 items.
This may sound like an explicitly cherrypicked example (it was the last set of encounters my group faced last week) this just shows how common it is for Paizo to put 'twists' on encounters beyond standard white room math tests. Think of how often hardness or resistance has all but shut down a bow weilding fighter or ranger for that specific encounter? Gunslingers get feat (and trait, and item) support to negate nearly all of that now.
So far, mostly APs and adventures - Plaguestone, Curse of the Crimson Throne and me GMing book 1 of both AoA and Ruby Pheonix. Also several short homebrew not-quite-oneshots. Next we are doing an actual homebrew adventure, but that is rogues-only. But after that it is gunslinger time again.
And yes I really liked the additions from TV! It just reinforced my view that Munitions Crafter is funtionally the only choice for your 1st level feat ^^. That said, the issue of special ammo cutting off practically all active abilities you'll ever get still remains. A determined ranger or fighter could also do the same thing via the Alchemist archetype. It's a bit more expensive, but they are much more free to use it due to not having to deal with reloading.
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the "find cover or don't have a subclass" minigame of the pre-12/15 sniperYou can solve this at 2nd level, LONG before 12/15. Take an ancestry that grants an arcane, divine, occult innate cantrip and select Shield and then at 2nd, take Spell Trickster Dedication and the Barrier Shield feats. This allows you to cast Shield to create a solid barrier you can use for cover anywhere you want. It of course makes you turtle in place as it requires all your actions [Shield, Covered Reload, Strike], but it's still a way to fix the issue.
The problem is that you don't just want cover. You specifically want cover to Hide, because that allows you to actually use your features and make you 1 shot per round count.
Take Cover is usually irrelevant for ranged characters in my experience, doubly so for the Sniper, simply because you are not a priority target for the rare ranged enemy. Melee enemies just walk 5 more feet and ignore it entirely. Your job is output and when you take actions away from that, they have to be worth it. Take Cover isn't.
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The problem is that you don't just want cover. You specifically want cover to Hide, because that allows you to actually use your features and make you 1 shot per round count.
But you ARE using your features: if you meant you can't hide, then you should have said so be in your OP.
Take Cover is usually irrelevant for ranged characters in my experience, doubly so for the Sniper, simply because you are not a priority target for the rare ranged enemy. Melee enemies just walk 5 more feet and ignore it entirely. Your job is output and when you take actions away from that, they have to be worth it. Take Cover isn't.
It's +2 to AC and Reflex so I find it useful when bad guys are targeting everyone. As to output, how is it different as you are spending the same number of actions on striking if you were hiding or taking cover as they are free when reloading. So if you can't hide, you can easily take cover. I know it's come in handy, as I did regularly come under attack with my sniper.
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The problem is that you don't just want cover. You specifically want cover to Hide, because that allows you to actually use your features and make you 1 shot per round count.But you ARE using your features: if you meant you can't hide, then you should have said so be in your OP.
Take Cover is usually irrelevant for ranged characters in my experience, doubly so for the Sniper, simply because you are not a priority target for the rare ranged enemy. Melee enemies just walk 5 more feet and ignore it entirely. Your job is output and when you take actions away from that, they have to be worth it. Take Cover isn't.It's +2 to AC and Reflex so I find it useful when bad guys are targeting everyone. As to output, how is it different as you are spending the same number of actions on striking if you were hiding or taking cover as they are free when reloading. So if you can't hide, you can easily take cover. I know it's come in handy, as I did regularly come under attack with my sniper.
Fair, I should have been more clear on that part. I meant any feature apart from Covered Reload itself.
As far as the usefulness of Take Cover is concerned, I suppose this varies a lot due to circumstances and table variety. I can't remember it actually mattering more than a handful of times. The APs I've seen or played also feature relatively few ranged enemies, as I think APs do in general, so there is that. And yeah, the "take actions away from your offence" part was just nonsense, sorry about that ^^.
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Funny enough, I never noticed that the Hide option of Covered Reload is actually broken RAW. Interacting to reload immediately cancels the effects of Hide, as it is neither an unobtrusive action nor one of the explicitly stated actions. As you Hide first and then reload, the former is nullified. This is clearly unintended, though, but still errata-worthy.
The APs I've seen or played also feature relatively few ranged enemies, as I think APs do in general, so there is that.
That could be the difference, as I play a lot of homebrew adventures.
Funny enough, I never noticed that the Hide option of Covered Reload is actually broken RAW. Interacting to reload immediately cancels the effects of Hide, as it is neither an unobtrusive action nor one of the explicitly stated actions. As you Hide first and then reload, the former is nullified. This is clearly unintended, though, but still errata-worthy.
Yeah, that's a known issue: so far when I've played a sniper, I've been allowed to Reload then Hide which fixes things. I have no idea why they set it at hide/take cover then reload instead of llowing it in either order. Might be a copy/paste issue as running reload does the same thing: "You Stride, Step, or Sneak, then Interact to reload.
Something I would be very interested in is this: when did your gunslinger feel really good? Obviously when you crit, but in what other situations? I'd like to hear some stories ^^
For me, the high point of my gunslinger career was when my Sniper hit level 10. Level 9 was good, but now I felt like I really had options on the table. It was no longer the correct play to use the same thing each turn. Instead, I could now choose from Sniper's Aim, Vital Shot and Called Shot depending on the situation. If things got really hairy, a quick getaway with Running Reload was possible. Sadly, useful alchemical ammo and neat things like camouflage dye weren't a thing back then, or it would have been even cooler.
One fight during a homebrew oneshot in particular allowed me to make good use of all of the above. Three mooks and a big melee miniboss in a somewhat open former bandit camp, built into the ruins of an old fort-ish type of structure. I was in a party with a standard melee rogue, a shield fighter and a sorcerer. The fighter and the rogue focused on the boss, while the sorcerer shut down the rest via control spells. I started off with Vital Shot on the boss to get that sweet, sweet bleed going. STarted off with a crit, you love to see it. Next, Called Shot for enfeebled 2 to take the heat of the guys in the front. No crit, but still very good. Then one of the mooks started threatening the sorcerer, so I took the heat off them by kiting that one via Running Reload and a mix of Called Shot and Sniper's Aim. Probably the most fun I had with a martial character in combat, ever.
Anyone else?
I think that the least invasive solution would be to just give the gunslinger its own unique small mechanic that functions like a renewable resource. Not the same mechanics as Unstable, but the same intent - you can do a really cool thing about once per fight. Something to bridge the gap in effectiveness and provide something that breaks the monotony, especially early on. Having one active ability like this per Way would be awesome, giving them a little more character.
This also might allow for the devaluation of reload feats, meaning other classes get to crowd the reload niche a bit more, which I'm all for. I get the idea behind niche protection for the gunslinger, but the current system just isn't satisfying for anyone involved, including the gunslinger.
Funny enough, I never noticed that the Hide option of Covered Reload is actually broken RAW. Interacting to reload immediately cancels the effects of Hide, as it is neither an unobtrusive action nor one of the explicitly stated actions. As you Hide first and then reload, the former is nullified. This is clearly unintended, though, but still errata-worthy.Yeah, that's a known issue: so far when I've played a sniper, I've been allowed to Reload then Hide which fixes things. I have no idea why they set it at hide/take cover then reload instead of llowing it in either order. Might be a copy/paste issue as running reload does the same thing: "You Stride, Step, or Sneak, then Interact to reload.
I think reload fall into this statement:
If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check.
So by RAW is perfectly fine to the GM authorize you to reload while hidden.
I'd have vastly prefferred for every Gunslinger to get Running Reload as an automatic level 1 feat. I'd probably replace it with Skirmishing Strike
Action cost of reload is too high for not enough benefit I agree.
I'm also baffled why it's a 8 HP class, when Ranger is a 10 HP class. It's not that 'long range' either since 3 out of the 5 subclasses are close range combatant.
Vanguard just does not feel right. Though I have no experience playing or seeing it so YMMV.
If I'm not forgeting all this was put into question during gunslinger playtest. There was some people who asked why Running Reload and Risky Reload aren't into chassis. I think that was a design decision to keep these feats accessible via archetype without need to write new archetype exclusive feats.
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I think reload fall into this statement:
If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check.So by RAW is perfectly fine to the GM authorize you to reload while hidden.
I get what you want to say, but there is no way it falls under that passage. Reloading a smoothbore muzzleloader is quite noisy, the necessary rattle from the rod alone would easily give your position away. The breechloaders don't have that problem, but the sound of the paper cartridge ripping multiple times and the clicking of whatever breech mechanism you are dealing with wouldn't be any better. You cannot really reduce the sound levels either.
That is why I said that reloading isn't unobtrusive. That passage really is meant for things that would make barely any noise and therefore make no sense if they would reveal you, but aren't covered by the mentioned actions. Taking something out of your pocket, slowly opening a well-oiled door and things like that.
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The new ammunition isn't supposed to give you more DPR
They give you more options
While I have my gripes with the class it's mostly tied to reload trait. Ammunition like the ones we are discussing should definitely have an added action cost
The new ammunition isn't supposed to give you more DPR
They give you more options
While I have my gripes with the class it's mostly tied to reload trait. Ammunition like the ones we are discussing should definitely have an added action cost
And sure, the action cost is very fair if you're using a bow. There is a dramatic difference in going from 1 to 2 actions for your attack and 2 to 3.
Also, it makes Life Shot laughably bad I think, because spending 3 actions to have a chance to heal someone for 2.5 HP average is terrible at level 2 and it doesn't really get any better from there.
While I agree with the action cost not being ideal, by dismissing Life Shot like that you aren't doing your party any favours.
Just like elixirs of life, healing potions and the healer's glove activation, these are not there to keep the frontline standing under difficult circumstances. Two actions or three, the healing provided is very unlikely to be worth the effort. That's what spells and Battle Medicine are for. In combat, these are for picking up people that are close to death. That has saved a lot of lives in my group, because we usually play With Life Shot, you don't even have to get into danger to do so, meaning the rest of your team can focus on what matters. It also costs the same amount of actions as having to Stride to them, taking out the potion and then feeding it to them. Sounds good to me.
Just buy/make one or two and keep them on you for emergencies. Works like a charm.
not sure if life shot are competitive even if they are free
2 action for third of healing of heal
For pure sustain healing, it isn't. Just like everything else that isn't a spell or battle medicine. You can do it if you have absolutely no choice or just find it fun, but doing this regularly only makes the game many times harder than it has to be. Which is why you don't use it for sustain, but for saving people.
I figured life shot would be something you keep in a worn air repeater so you can quickdraw it for convenience and not waste actions reloading.
If you have Quickdraw, that seems like a very good idea. Any cheap weapon or two would do, really.
What do you usually get Quickdraw for other than this? It's bomb shenanigans for me ^^
There are many ways this could go, but the gunslinger definitely deserves a round of alchemist-style errata "patches". While certainly far from being the top priority, I'm confident in my assessment that the class is underperforming both balance-wise and in the fun department.
Same with quite a bit of the content that came with it, even if you don't consider the regular weapons. Take beast guns and the beast gunner archetype for example. The former become obsolete by level 8 at the latest (or just start that way) and the latter is tied to them, making it literally a worse Eldritch Archer due to that fact alone. Or the bullet dancer archetype, as mentioned in the other thread. Or the spellshot class archetype, which nerfs your character and settles you with a useless dedication feat.
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There are many ways this could go, but the gunslinger definitely deserves a round of alchemist-style errata "patches". While certainly far from being the top priority, I'm confident in my assessment that the class is underperforming both balance-wise and in the fun department.
IMO it's not really the gunslinger that need alchemist-style errata "patches" but the firearms itself that need this. It as I appointed in another topic. Firearms need something like Returning rune as reload compression not only to be dependent from a class reload feats. After that we can begin to see new interesting feat for gunslinger and firearms related classes (once that a reload rune allow reload feats to be an option not a obligatory feat).
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There are many ways this could go, but the gunslinger definitely deserves a round of alchemist-style errata "patches". While certainly far from being the top priority, I'm confident in my assessment that the class is underperforming both balance-wise and in the fun department.IMO it's not really the gunslinger that need alchemist-style errata "patches" but the firearms itself that need this. It as I appointed in another topic. Firearms need something like Returning rune as reload compression not only to be dependent from a class reload feats. After that we can begin to see new interesting feat for gunslinger and firearms related classes (once that a reload rune allow reload feats to be an option not a obligatory feat).
I'd be all for reload weapons getting a significant once-over, but the class itself could also use a bit of pepp in its step, if you catch my drift. It's also significantly easier to just spice up one class a bit than updating nearly 60 weapons across multiple releases.
What do you mean by a "Returning rune as reload compression"? Was that the reload -1 rune, possibly with misfire on failure you were talking about at the start or something different?
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The gunslinger in my current campaign actually does pretty good damage. She's playing a sniper; though cover hasn't been an issue largely due to a very strong aversion to featureless maps on my end; and generally not being a stingy jerk about being able to find cover. A big thing people forget about the class is that it's got quite a lot of support options like fake out that act as indirect damage enhancers but don't get interpreted that way because it makes your ally better at damage rather than you.
I agree with the sentiment that the class is a bit top heavy though; and imo, the switch hitter ways; such as drifter, vangaurd, and triggerbrand; suffer greatly from the proficiency gap between gun and not gun attacks. Sniper really comes to its own mostly once you get the ability to hide without cover; before that, it's very dependent on how accessible your DM makes cover (the shielded weapon stand does help there though). Pistolero almost feels like it wants to do some janky thing like use a big gun in one hand with capacity and an air repeater in the other to take advantage of pistolero's challenge; otherwise you end up giving your target a bigger buff to damage than you're getting (on accounts of you getting only one shot per turn otherwise and your target most likely getting more).
I do wonder how much of this is less reload being bad and bows just being just that good. Ranged characters in the campaigns I've run usually end up being top damage dealers because they dont need to close the gap to start hurting people. Most of my players have backgrounds in sci fi/modern ttrpgs; where the norm is shooting guns and using cover and terrain. In a fantasy game, this translates to using area denial spells to slow down enemies while shooting at them; and my npcs often also use similar strategies. I've never actually seen a bow user at my tables; since for whatever reason, crossbows and guns seem to hold more appeal for the players at my table; though I have no doubt they would be more powerful given the ability to use the same tactics, but being able to get more shots off.
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Something I would be very interested in is this: when did your gunslinger feel really good? Obviously when you crit, but in what other situations? I'd like to hear some stories ^^
For me, the high point of my gunslinger career was when my Sniper hit level 10.
The only sniper I played continuously only got to 6th/7th before the game broke up. Now I have played a 12th level in some one shots and Vital Shot/Called Shot were quite fun. It would be nice to have access to more of those kind of abilities.
I think reload fall into this statement:
If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check.So by RAW is perfectly fine to the GM authorize you to reload while hidden.
It's DM fiat and that in itself is an issue IMO. If RAW I have no idea what I can do by the rules, that means I have no way to plan for things. Add it to the other 101 dm fiat questions I have to cover with a new DM... :P
The gunslinger in my current campaign actually does pretty good damage. She's playing a sniper; though cover hasn't been an issue largely due to a very strong aversion to featureless maps on my end; and generally not being a stingy jerk about being able to find cover. A big thing people forget about the class is that it's got quite a lot of support options like fake out that act as indirect damage enhancers but don't get interpreted that way because it makes your ally better at damage rather than you.
It's always good as a GM to meet reasonable class needs your players have like that. People really appreciate it ^^.
Weirdly, the sniper is the one Way that is least able to use some of those support feats, the big one being Fake Out, in my experience. You usually do your big shot and then Hide via Covered Reload, ending your turn. Fake Out has the visual trait, meaning you either literally cannot use it or you drop stealth when you do. If you do your turns the other way around, you don't have a loaded weapon, meaning you cannot use it either. A bit of a shame, as it is easily the best feat the gunslinger has, which is why it is always brought up.
I agree with the sentiment that the class is a bit top heavy though; and imo, the switch hitter ways; such as drifter, vangaurd, and triggerbrand; suffer greatly from the proficiency gap between gun and not gun attacks. Sniper really comes to its own mostly once you get the ability to hide without cover; before that, it's very dependent on how accessible your DM makes cover (the shielded weapon stand does help there though).
If you are talking about the shielded tripod, it sadly doesn't. It explicitly says it cannot be used as cover for stealth. With TV out, though, you can buy the better camouflage dye and practically have the feat in emergencies.
Pistolero almost feels like it wants to do some janky thing like use a big gun in one hand with capacity and an air repeater in the other to take advantage of pistolero's challenge; otherwise you end up giving your target a bigger buff to damage than you're getting (on accounts of you getting only one shot per turn otherwise and your target most likely getting more).
Exactly what I am thinking, Pistolero's Challenge is so weird. The vibe is absolutely fire, but the mechanics are just a big sign that says "please, kill me", which the GM pretty much has to honour. Like, it doesn't matter what one-handed weapon you are using, any enemy that isn't the wettest of noodles will put you into the ground. As one of the least durable martials in the game, there are few easier ways to completely screw your party. Then you look at Pistol Twirl coming your way 4 levels earlier and question why you would ever not take it instead.
I do wonder how much of this is less reload being bad and bows just being just that good. Ranged characters in the campaigns I've run usually end up being top damage dealers because they dont need to close the gap to start hurting people. Most of my players have backgrounds in sci fi/modern ttrpgs; where the norm is shooting guns and using cover and terrain. In a fantasy game, this translates to using area denial spells to slow down enemies while shooting at them; and my npcs often also use similar strategies. I've never actually seen a bow user at my tables; since for whatever reason, crossbows and guns seem to hold more appeal for the players at my table; though I have no doubt they would be more powerful given the ability to use the same tactics, but being able to get more shots off.
I mean, does it really matter which one it is? The outcome is bows being the best ranged weapons either way. That is completely by design, or at least them requiring no feats or really anything besides DEX and proficiency to be very good is. I don't like that inequality, but that's how it is.
On a more positive note, I love your player's tactics, that's exactly what you should do. When we actually have a ranged martial character for a change - for some reason I'm the only one who will go for that often - that's usually the game plan as well. Also, yay for reload gang, those weapons are just cooler :^)
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[shortened, the quoted content is right before this]
I do not think that that really is what's going on. Yes, in some cases it is a matter of opinion if things are fine the way they are or not. Other than that, I'm sure there are plenty of people at Paizo who would love nothing more than get stuck back into old content and polish it up. For everyone who has done creative work, even just for fun, we have all been there at some time. No, the issue is that Paizo simply do not have the luxury to do that, afaik. Fixing old stuff brings in comparatively little money, so priority has to go to making new content. Some things just break the game, so fixing that is necessary, but anything less than that is tricky. I really can't blame them for that.
As usual, money is the final boss of life.
As far as Infinite content is concerned, sadly there is very little for the gunslinger or reload weapons in general. It is quite niche after all. When I looked a while back, the only things I found interesting weren't balanced well. My GM and I have done some minor tweaks of our own, so I might make a free pdf myself, but that is the extent of that.
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The thing about people's complaints about the gunslinger that I really don't get is that a third attack is almost always a worse option than anything else productive you could do with that action. The gunslinger generally gets to make two attacks on a lot of rounds, and you do have things you can combine with reloading (running reload, whatever your way gives) and maybe there should be more but the gunslinger should not be a "3 attacks/round"character and just like how the monk has "more flexibility in action economy" as a fundamental bonus of the class, I'm not sure that "less flexibility in action economy" is an unreasonable thing to pin to a class.
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The thing about people's complaints about the gunslinger that I really don't get is that a third attack is almost always a worse option than anything else productive you could do with that action. The gunslinger generally gets to make two attacks on a lot of rounds, and you do have things you can combine with reloading (running reload, whatever your way gives) and maybe there should be more but the gunslinger should not be a "3 attacks/round"character and just like how the monk has "more flexibility in action economy" as a fundamental bonus of the class, I'm not sure that "less flexibility in action economy" is an unreasonable thing to pin to a class.
The whole problem is that the bow competition (ranger and ranged fighter, who dips into ranger for Hunted Shot as well) can easily dish out 2-3 shots for literally every single one you do. 2, because sometimes they have to Hunt Prey, which is about the same frequency or less than the gunslinger gets a second shot a round, i.e. the first round (if not applied before combat) and then every other round afterwards. After that, they still have their third action, but they can spend it however they wish, instead on an extremely limited selection that you sometimes even have to pay feats for.
The gunslinger has the additional problem that its second shot is worth far less, because it is accompanied by a reload and is very unlikely to crit, meaning for all intents and purposes it's wasted. You also basically shut down all your possible reactions, which is another opportunity coast. Bow users can just chuck em out there, because your second hit still has a decent hit chance and if it misses, you have lost nothing. On a hit, you have basically doubled the damage of the gunslinger, so yay. Same for the third, even if the hit chance isn't great.
There is also the fact that it feels like everything the gunslinger gets in term of fun feats/features is 2 actions, meaning you'll never get a second shot without Risky Reload.
Don't get me wrong, I find the gunslinger's stuff way more fun, but when the numbers are so clearly in favour of the other camp, it's disheartening. If the gunslinger at least had some kind of major tangible upside that doesn't boil down to Fake Out, but that's just not the case.
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Can you even really use fake out as a stand-out feature anymore? Everyone wants a good reaction and everyone (including archers) can use it with a gauntlet bow. They wouldn't say no to pistolero's deed or some of the other feats either if they need to get out of the archetype.
It's also not about attacking 3/round. It's about attacking 2/round and having an action to spare. Sure, you have a couple of action savers in risky reload, running reload and your way reload, but two of those are feat taxes, two force certain actions and risky reload doesn't even save you anything on a miss. It's a very constrained playstyle where everything needs to go your way just to stay on par with the archer who has greater freedom with their actions.
If you are talking about the shielded tripod, it sadly doesn't. It explicitly says it cannot be used as cover for stealth. With TV out, though, you can buy the better camouflage dye and practically have the feat in emergencies.
Oh, I was more talking about always having cover; it does let you use your sweet reload, although it doesn't give you the best result (being hidden). Still; easier to swing than an innate cantrip and an archetype
As for the bow thing, I was more implying that the bow might actually be nerf worthy; not that I'm called for a nerf, and more that in future installments of the game; an appropriate to balancing ranged weapons around fewer attacks and making the reloading process provide non offense actions like reload actions, and have arrow spamming be something to build into rather than just the default
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With the barricade buster I'm looking again at firearms from the lens of other martials. Instead of trying to make reloading fun, just expect to fire at most 8 shots from a repeating weapon, and then switch to a different weapon or melee.
I'm toying with the idea of a fighter taking guns as favored weapons, and martial artist archetype to add a switch hitting side to that.