Does Treasure Vault help alchemists?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm reading through the alchemy section and man is there a lot to unpack there! For those of you with access, do you think the hefty variety of new alchemical gear is going to boost the alchemist class in a meaningful way?


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Yeah, I think it does.

There are so many new toys in Treasure Vault's Alchemy Unleashed chapter. There's going to be a lot of demand for a number of the items, but the only Class that will have reliable access is Alchemist.

There are new Healing Elixirs that interact quite well with the new possibilities that Chirurgeon has. There's one Elixir that, due to some specific rules Paizo has thrown in, makes a Chirurgeon the best there is at getting rid of poison & disease starting at Level 11. It makes them fantastic at it from introduction at 5th as long as they have Batches of Infused Reagents to spare; from 11th on they can make the stuff for free should they choose it.

The new Bombs are an interesting bunch, and one of them may be the strongest Debuff Bomb in existence... as long as your target(s) isn't immune to Poison. It's the first Bomb since Blindpepper to Debuff in an Area. Going to be tricky to use without hitting your allies... unless you're a Bomber. (If you're not a Bomber, I strongly recommend Directional Bombs, which is a Feat I enjoy anyway.)

There are two new Elixirs, both called Tonics, that every Martial in the game will want a free hand to use before a fight. Can't wait for my Melee Mutagenist to have them.

Anyways, I'm being purposely vague because I want to just whet the appetite. I personally can't wait for the 22nd when I start talking openly about all this stuff and give Paizo my money... which they have definitely well earned with this book.


People who already like the alchemist will love this book. More options never hurt and there are a lot of good ones, some so much so that they will get errata'd for sure.

It doesn't change my mind about the class, but it certainly gives it a good try.


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Not particularly, I think. They're still just vending machines for better classes for the most part. Sicken bomb is pretty neat though.

Initial alchemy thoughts:

Ooze/freeze ammunition - 7/28gp and renders that whole thread about carrying bombs as backup moot by changing your damage type to acid/cold. Keep a few and never worry about resistance vs ranged again.

Elemental ammunition - for 3 gold puts a 1 damage tick of persistent damage to trigger weaknesses. Also does splash damage and has higher level versions for more damage.

Energy Mutagen - enemies rarely do energy damage and more rarely have multiple types. Used for damage or equivalent to resist energy 4. 12gp for moderate and works as a prebuff

Revealing mist - anti invis, 9gp, level 3.

Greater cooperative waffles - helpful halfling as an item if I read it right. 25gp, level 5.

Skunk bomb - good source of sickened. Fort save makes it less reliable and splashed enemies get their save upgraded. Needs to scale, so it is useless for non-alchemists.

Choker mutagen adding reach is nice but the drawback is bad for anyone planning to make attacks. Good for spell or potion delivery though.

I want to like the tonics, but their short duration and the disadvantage of being a HoT instead of a burst heal leaves me unenthused.

I also want to like the green coloring, since it causes uneven ground, but the action cost, short duration and small AoE make it unsuited as an offensive tool or a defensive trap.

Oddly enough, the suite of pretty nice 3rd level items and some good 1st level items makes me more interested in alchemist archetype as a higher priority option.

There's also all sorts of other fun stuff in the book but those are my initial thoughts on alchemy things.


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item vending machine role of alchemist will never change with new item

only possible with drastically changing alchemist class itself

troll hide are nice but is it a modification that only applicable for leather armor

since it doesn't have invested trait it doesn't seem to be specific magic armor

soothing tonic is worse than life boosting oil but can be made by alchemist or herbalist


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There's a few good items which I imagine will be added to the "staple" repertoire of most alchemists, and processed foods are an interesting new category (basically they affect exploration activities, which is a new niche), but I wouldn't say anything is exceedingly over the top. Skunk bomb might be the top of it - and a huge chunk of the bestiary is straight up immune to it.

In short, Alchemist hasn't gotten more powerful, it got more versatile. Which is expected from any new item release.

Fun fact: 90% of the most powerful alchemical items in the game are from the CRB. Because the CRB has the least situational stuff. I'm ok with that.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, I don't think you should expect (for any class, in any book) substantial chassis upgrades. The proficiencies and levels at which they go up are pretty much fixed, changeable only through errata in the book from which the class came.

But because of how it's set up, alchemist is a class that's more able to grow sideways in versatility than any other class.

Wizard can learn different spells when new books come out, but still has to decide in the morning what to prepare. (Or change in between encounters with the right thesis.)

Sorcerer can pivot quickly to spam a lot of a particular spell, but only if they know it.

Alchemist can actually pump out a lot of a surprise niche item mid-combat, provided you have the formula. That puts it in a weird place in between prepared and spontaneous.

It does make it an "advanced" class. You have to as a player do a lot of homework so you know which formulas you need. And remember it in the heat of the game.

I don't think it's going to be really powerful, but the sheer versatility might make it powerful-enough. Enough to feel good about it. I think that'll happen more in a campaign where the GM throws a lot of curve balls, than in one where you can predict what you'll need. In predictable campaigns you can always do better by directly going to that option, instead of leveraging last-minute flexibility.


The alchemical ammo helps Gunslinger more than Alchemist specifically I think - there was a serious lack of options to use with the Munitions Crafter feat line.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The Collar of the Shifting Spider making it much more convenient for every ally who has one to actually use mutagens even if you're ambushed instead of preparing to start a fight is a bigger boost than any consumable option.


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I think the biggest winners here are Toxicologists and Medics, followed by bombers.

Toxicologist gets a nice way to have a tiny bit higher DC on his poisons, at the expense of some more reagents.

he also gets a more reliable ranged way (so no actions wasted on reapply) to apply the poisons without wasting them (through the bandolier and chakri).

Specific runes for poisons allow you to use two handers (so reach) and still be able to poison them using just one action, and there's also a weapon modification that can allow 2 poisons out of 1 succesful attack.

The new poisons also look good, with much more varied conditions to inflict. Including a poison that works on undead.

Lastly, the skunk bomb IS a poison as well, meaning that they will always have a nice debuff option at will if they want.

Medics get access to some fast healing to pad their healing numbers, which doubles up as the best out of combat healing by far after a level.

They also get access to reach with their hands which can be very important for the more dedicated healer builds.

They eventually also become the best poison/disease cleansers out of all the healers, which is a niche.

Bombers basically get skunk bomb I think. Which is good, but I'm not sure it was the only thing missing from them.

Mutagenists imo still struggle to find a niche.

---

All the alchemists get access to some more cool new toys like:

the instant mutagen item.

Revealing mist.

the temp hp elixir.

A much wider applicable way to give +1 to attack for melee, both for them and allies (I still find it difficult to use warblood due to how many concentrate actions a lot of builds rely upon).

And a few more small upgrades like food.

---

Overall, i think it's good. Time will tell if it's good enough.
p.s. i can't wait to see a tangled forest stance monk with +20 to his reach though lol. TAlk about battlefield lockdown :P


Between the Collar of Shifting Spider and the extra Mutagens I think Mutagenist is now in a way better place, especially before level 11 and 1-hour duration Mutagens.

I dislike Skunk Bombs as it shifts the Bomber specialization from damage to debuff. But it makes Perpetual Bombs finally worth it (in my opinion, they weren't).

And obviously, besides the Skunk Bomb (because you have no way to protect your allies from splash unless you're a Bomber), you can use all these items whatever your Research Field. So I think we can say it's overall a strong buff to the Alchemist.


SuperBidi wrote:

Between the Collar of Shifting Spider and the extra Mutagens I think Mutagenist is now in a way better place, especially before level 11 and 1-hour duration Mutagens.

I dislike Skunk Bombs as it shifts the Bomber specialization from damage to debuff. But it makes Perpetual Bombs finally worth it (in my opinion, they weren't).

And obviously, besides the Skunk Bomb (because you have no way to protect your allies from splash unless you're a Bomber), you can use all these items whatever your Research Field. So I think we can say it's overall a strong buff to the Alchemist.

i think the collar is a better buff for non-mutagenists rather than mutagenist, hence why i said that they seem to be getting almost nothing here.

don't get me wrong, they will use it ofc, but EVERY alchemist will be using it.

my reasoning is that mutagenist has a much easier time having surplus mutagens compared to every other alchemist. So a way to efficiently use mutagens (in combat rather than having to always prebuff) is better for those that have inherently worse mutagen efficiency.


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shroudb wrote:

i think the collar is a better buff for non-mutagenists rather than mutagenist, hence why i said that they seem to be getting almost nothing here.

don't get me wrong, they will use it ofc, but EVERY alchemist will be using it.

my reasoning is that mutagenist has a much easier time having surplus mutagens compared to every other alchemist. So a way to efficiently use mutagens (in combat rather than having to always prebuff) is better for those that have inherently worse mutagen efficiency.

The issue for the other types of Alchemists is to produce the Mutagens. You need 4-6 of them (if you want everyone to have one) and you can count for some uses you'll need to refresh. It's very costly. When the Mutagenist, between the 3 Mutagens per reagent and the ability to split them the way they want, will have easier time filling the collars.

Also, I consider that the Mutagenist is dependent on having their Mutagens, not the other types of Alchemist. The Collar allows them to start every fight with one Mutagen for no action cost even in situations where they are surprised. With their level 13 ability, it's a necessity if you want to be under double Mutagens even when surprised without spending your first round doing nothing.


SuperBidi wrote:
shroudb wrote:

i think the collar is a better buff for non-mutagenists rather than mutagenist, hence why i said that they seem to be getting almost nothing here.

don't get me wrong, they will use it ofc, but EVERY alchemist will be using it.

my reasoning is that mutagenist has a much easier time having surplus mutagens compared to every other alchemist. So a way to efficiently use mutagens (in combat rather than having to always prebuff) is better for those that have inherently worse mutagen efficiency.

The issue for the other types of Alchemists is to produce the Mutagens. You need 4-6 of them (if you want everyone to have one) and you can count for some uses you'll need to refresh. It's very costly. When the Mutagenist, between the 3 Mutagens per reagent and the ability to split them the way they want, will have easier time filling the collars.

Also, I consider that the Mutagenist is dependent on having their Mutagens, not the other types of Alchemist. The Collar allows them to start every fight with one Mutagen for no action cost even in situations where they are surprised. With their level 13 ability, it's a necessity if you want to be under double Mutagens even when surprised without spending your first round doing nothing.

ehh, i find that most alchemists, regardless of their spec, want to have a mutagen active on them, not only mutagenist.

early on, just 1-2 reagents is enough for 1 person to get rhough the day, i havent seen any group that every single one of them had a useful (or wanted to be under) mutagen.

so i think that between 3-4 reagents, even for non-mutagenists, is enough. 2 for you, 1 for each other member of the group that wants one.

later on, with extend elixir at 12 making the mutagens 2hours each, i think that's more than enough.

What i said about the mutagenist still having no niche, is that the bonuses he provides, are usually not enough over what another alchemist can provide with a bit more expenditure, exactly because mutagens aren't something that you spam either way, unlike poisons, elixirs, and bombs, which are all consumables that you want to spend multiple per fight usually.

in the end, the main draw of a spec is the increased reagent efficiency of that spec for the type, and mutagenist simply doesn't use as many mutagens as all the other specs use their respective alchemical item specs.

Hence why i said that they still feel like they are without a niche.

If there was some sort of reason to spam more mutagens, then sure, but i don't see it.

UNLESS you can somehow come with a functioning energy mutagen build that relies on spamming breath.


shroudb wrote:
ehh, i find that most alchemists, regardless of their spec, want to have a mutagen active on them, not only mutagenist.

Yes, but the Mutagenist needs a Mutagen (if you go Bestial). When all other Research Field can deal with it if they are not under their Mutagen. Also, the need, at high level, to be under 2 Mutagens makes it more complex for the Mutagenist.

shroudb wrote:
so i think that between 3-4 reagents, even for non-mutagenists, is enough. 2 for you, 1 for each other member of the group that wants one.

You are counting 1-2 characters who would want a Mutagen. With the new release and the Energy Mutagen becoming Common, all the martials will want one. It's extra damage and an energy resistance that you use on Initiative so after knowing what you'll face. Definitely a must have to me.

And even for casters, the Choker-Arm Mutagen for long range touch spells can be super useful with no drawback.
Anyway, it's still better than the 4 Mutagens per day that is the current trend. Doubling that means having a bit more use of your 3 Mutagens per reagent.

shroudb wrote:
in the end, the main draw of a spec is the increased reagent efficiency of that spec for the type

Not really. At high level, you have a lot of reagents. The difference exists, but one extra reagent or 2 won't completely kill a build. Especially the Mutagenist who's by nature less reagent hungry.

shroudb wrote:
What i said about the mutagenist still having no niche

The Mutagenist is definitely a high level build. At low level, you lack Bestial Mutagen and Flurry of Blows.

But now, combining the Choker-Arm Mutagen + Bestial Mutagen is super interesting. You can go all in with your lower AC as you can attack from range. Add an attack of opportunity on top and you have a long range martial (weak one, but still one) who works also as an Alchemist (for healing, poison and Mutagens at least).
I'm not sure it's a lack of niche. I don't see the Mutagenist as inherently bad. But as it really starts to shine at level 10, I understand why it's in general ignored.


SuperBidi wrote:
shroudb wrote:
ehh, i find that most alchemists, regardless of their spec, want to have a mutagen active on them, not only mutagenist.

Yes, but the Mutagenist needs a Mutagen (if you go Bestial). When all other Research Field can deal with it if they are not under their Mutagen. Also, the need, at high level, to be under 2 Mutagens makes it more complex for the Mutagenist.

shroudb wrote:
so i think that between 3-4 reagents, even for non-mutagenists, is enough. 2 for you, 1 for each other member of the group that wants one.

You are counting 1-2 characters who would want a Mutagen. With the new release and the Energy Mutagen becoming Common, all the martials will want one. It's extra damage and an energy resistance that you use on Initiative so after knowing what you'll face. Definitely a must have to me.

And even for casters, the Choker-Arm Mutagen for long range touch spells can be super useful with no drawback.
Anyway, it's still better than the 4 Mutagens per day that is the current trend. Doubling that means having a bit more use of your 3 Mutagens per reagent.

shroudb wrote:
in the end, the main draw of a spec is the increased reagent efficiency of that spec for the type

Not really. At high level, you have a lot of reagents. The difference exists, but one extra reagent or 2 won't completely kill a build. Especially the Mutagenist who's by nature less reagent hungry.

shroudb wrote:
What i said about the mutagenist still having no niche

The Mutagenist is definitely a high level build. At low level, you lack Bestial Mutagen and Flurry of Blows.

But now, combining the Choker-Arm Mutagen + Bestial Mutagen is super interesting. You can go all in with your lower AC as you can attack from range. Add an attack of opportunity on top and you have a long range martial (weak one, but still one) who works also as an Alchemist (for healing, poison and Mutagens at least).
I'm not sure it's a lack of niche. I don't see the Mutagenist as inherently bad. But...

i'm not so high on the energy mutagen.

most things with a weakness have the opposite element as damage usually.

so for when it would shine, it would also be extremely more dangerous to use.


shroudb wrote:

i'm not so high on the energy mutagen.

most things with a weakness have the opposite element as damage usually.

so for when it would shine, it would also be extremely more dangerous to use.

I agree on that. In my opinion, it's better against creatures without specific weaknesses. You gain a bit of damage (1 die is a lot in PF2 actually) at the cost of a bit of energy meddling (once at level 11 the gain is equivalent to the loss). It's nowhere close to exceptional, but I don't see a reason not to use it as it's "free".

And with the help of poison, you can help low damage martials quite a bit. If the party is full of Barbarians or 2-handed Fighters, it's not extremely useful. But with lower damage martials, it's quite some help.


energy mutagen doesn't need to stay on level

for most mutagen to stay relevant a alchemist need to be in the team

what is the point of shifting spider if there are no good mutagen to use


Skunk bomb sounds interesting. I had suggested previously that bombs should debuff in an area rather than only the primary target. items like this push bombers away from dps and into support, but honestly so much of the class' power budget is wrapped up in support that even bombers are supports anyways. If the class is only ever going to get expert proficiency stuff like this is a big help.

IMO alchemist can't really be fixed with just new items though, the class has some design and scaling issues that need to be properly addressed. From what I've heard they're fine in PFS play, but from playing mostly APs its still my experience that alchemists are terrible. Very few enemies with exploitable weaknesses (at this point enemies that resist everything except 'X' seem more common) and adventuring days are often long enough to drain their resources too quickly.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would say so, but it's indirect, basically they can ram more different kinds of bonuses into more different kind of bonus holes, which makes them more useful overall-- the mutagen expansion gives them more options other party members will find palatable, food buffs are now a serious thing, lozenges have potential to be useful. The stupefying bomb is just generically good.

Someone, somewhere will be more frequently adding something from the Alchemist, which is a mild power boost.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
the mutagen expansion gives them more options other party members will find palatable

Well I hope so. The trade offs offered before were mostly terrible and stopped 80% of them from being useful except in very narrow cases.


Gortle wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
the mutagen expansion gives them more options other party members will find palatable
Well I hope so. The trade offs offered before were mostly terrible and stopped 80% of them from being useful except in very narrow cases.

Let's look at some drawbacks

-1 AC and -2 reflex saves
-1 athletics, stealth, thievery, attack rolls, damage per die
Become encumbered (cannot be removed)
Weakness 5 to three of acid/cold/elec/fire
When you take piercing or slashing damage, also take 1d6 persistent bleed
All speeds -10 and -2 reflex
-1 perception and will. Flat-footed if you don't perform, step, stride or interact 1/turn

Not that some of these can't be worked around. There's a new elixer that gives resistance 5 vs persistent bleed after all. But while I'm willing to gamble on a flat 5 damage weakness, I'm not all that willing to gamble on reduced saves or AC.


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I've had a chance to go over the items, and while there are some interesting standouts, they really missed the mark on some of them, like really badly in some cases, to the point where its clear even they don't know what's going on with alchemist.

Great stuff:
Flamethrower
Bomb gauntlet
Lozenges, poison fizz and crackling bubble gum in particular
Skunk bomb
lodestone bomb (finally a bomb that's usually well suited to fighting humanoids)

Good stuff with power issues:
Fury cocktail: Bestial mutagen for weapons. So you can use a weapon with your alch and give out buffs to your STR party members, its a shame its the same penalty as bestial which has its issues. Edit: Just realized its level 4+, there's no level 1 variant, which is a bit of a buzzkill
Life shot: finally a way to use potions at range, but did they really need to be weaker?

Worst item contender:
Healing vapor: heals 5 hp over 10 minutes, at level 4. This is hilariously bad. Out of combat healing is super plentiful in the system, not sure why this is so weak.

Items that raise serious design questions:
Insight Coffee (this is just a roundabout way of buffing investigator right? probably because they need to wait for a new book printing to make errata)
Poison Concentrator
Bomb Coagulant Alembic
Alchemical chart

The additive items are really weird. Low level alchemists are generally forced to use advanced alchemy and not quick alchemy, so these feel like items aimed at them, but are item level 5+. High level alchemists are pushed pretty hard into using quick alchemy to take advantage of additive feats and tend to have plenty of resources so they don't need the benefits as much. The bomb one is particularly bad too because its way better on non-bombers since it lets you turn off the splash damage.

These all feel like they should be feats, but making them feats puts them in competition with all the math fixer and must take feats alchemists already have, plus the additive ones are dead ends being the only feats that reward you for crafting at the start of the day.


I was browsing through the items yesterday, to update my Alchemist's list of formulas, and I included roughly 30 of them. A good portion are circumstantial bonuses that are quite good if you know what you will face beforehand, a few of them are strong items for other Research Fields but that still work ok with mine and a few of them are nice for my Research Field.

Overall, I've been very positive about the process. My Alchemist will experience nice improvements.

I've even finally created and started to play a Strength-based Mutagenist, as the new Mutagens now give excellent options before (and then alongside) the high level Feral Mutagen/Flurry of Blows option.

Very nice addition to the game, if you want my opinion. Outside the Skunk Bomb, I think they are spot on in terms of power level (I find the Skunk Bomb to be a bit too strong, it will become the main Bomb for all Bombers now when there was a lot of choice in the past).


Ganigumo wrote:

I've had a chance to go over the items, and while there are some interesting standouts, they really missed the mark on some of them, like really badly in some cases, to the point where its clear even they don't know what's going on with alchemist.

Great stuff:
Flamethrower
Bomb gauntlet
Lozenges, poison fizz and crackling bubble gum in particular
Skunk bomb
lodestone bomb (finally a bomb that's usually well suited to fighting humanoids)

Good stuff with power issues:
Fury cocktail: Bestial mutagen for weapons. So you can use a weapon with your alch and give out buffs to your STR party members, its a shame its the same penalty as bestial which has its issues. Edit: Just realized its level 4+, there's no level 1 variant, which is a bit of a buzzkill
Life shot: finally a way to use potions at range, but did they really need to be weaker?

Worst item contender:
Healing vapor: heals 5 hp over 10 minutes, at level 4. This is hilariously bad. Out of combat healing is super plentiful in the system, not sure why this is so weak.

Items that raise serious design questions:
Insight Coffee (this is just a roundabout way of buffing investigator right? probably because they need to wait for a new book printing to make errata)
Poison Concentrator
Bomb Coagulant Alembic
Alchemical chart

The additive items are really weird. Low level alchemists are generally forced to use advanced alchemy and not quick alchemy, so these feel like items aimed at them, but are item level 5+. High level alchemists are pushed pretty hard into using quick alchemy to take advantage of additive feats and tend to have plenty of resources so they don't need the benefits as much. The bomb one is particularly bad too because its way better on non-bombers since it lets you turn off the splash damage.

These all feel like they should be feats, but making them feats puts them in competition with all the math fixer and must take feats alchemists already have, plus the additive ones are dead ends being the only feats that reward...

I find poison concentrator to be pretty strong myself.

A poisoner doesn't rely on Quick, instead now he's given the option to halve his poison stash of the day for a +1 to the DC.

That's pretty cool given that Fort is universally the strongest monster save, but also that DC increasing is extremely rare.

This plus pinpoint is a 3 point shift all together which is good.


shroudb wrote:
I find poison concentrator to be pretty strong myself.

Unfortunately, it's limited to the Toxicologist.

I don't know why they always have to limit the levels of alchemical items everywhere, there are tons of items that are unusable outside the specific levels where you get their versions, and it's the case for the Concentrator (unless you are a Toxicologist or you take Potent Poisoner and even in that second case it'll be useful only for a handful of levels).


SuperBidi wrote:
shroudb wrote:
I find poison concentrator to be pretty strong myself.

Unfortunately, it's limited to the Toxicologist.

I don't know why they always have to limit the levels of alchemical items everywhere, there are tons of items that are unusable outside the specific levels where you get their versions, and it's the case for the Concentrator (unless you are a Toxicologist or you take Potent Poisoner and even in that second case it'll be useful only for a handful of levels).

Well yes, but given that toxicologist is the only subclass (in the whole game?) that its main thing does nothing on a successful save, pushing the DC is vital to him much more than the other alchemists imo.


Ganigumo wrote:
Flamethrower

Cool idea but the mechanics make it less exciting: with a 1 min reload and using 2 hands means at best it's an opener that you then drop to the ground afterwards.

Ganigumo wrote:

Worst item contender:

Healing vapor: heals 5 hp over 10 minutes, at level 4. This is hilariously bad. Out of combat healing is super plentiful in the system, not sure why this is so weak.

That's not quite right: it's healing in a 5' burst so 20 total healing possible from it. What kills it though is that it isn't an elixir so it doesn't interact with the Chirurgeon Research Field at all: no increased baches and no perpetuals.


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shroudb wrote:


I find poison concentrator to be pretty strong myself.

A poisoner doesn't rely on Quick, instead now he's given the option to halve his poison stash of the day for a +1 to the DC.

That's pretty cool given that Fort is universally the strongest monster save, but also that DC increasing is extremely rare.

This plus pinpoint is a 3 point shift all together which is good.

My issue with that isn't the strength of it, as it, bomb coagulant alembic, and the alchemical chart are all strong enough to consider using.

My issue is the design of the items and how they mesh with the class. These are clearly items that are attempting to "fix" alchemist in some way. Bomb coagulant is trying to let you prepare sticky bombs at the start of the day, and poison concentrator is trying to make the math better for poisons that aren't using powerful alchemy. Alchemical chart is a replacement for enduring alchemy.

I'd much rather just see a proper rewrite/revision of the alchemist, with stuff like this it feels like they're designing in a space they shouldn't, because they won't (or can't), fix the problem at its source.


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Ganigumo wrote:
Alchemical chart

This doesn't really fix as much as it breaks as it takes up a hand: Once you get double brew, holding the chart means 1 item drops to the ground for the average alchemist [requiring an action to pick up] and persists until 15th level with Alchemical Alacrity when you can stow them but still costs an action to draw them to use.


graystone wrote:
Ganigumo wrote:
Alchemical chart
This doesn't really fix as much as it breaks as it takes up a hand: Once you get double brew, holding the chart means 1 item drops to the ground for the average alchemist [requiring an action to pick up] and persists until 15th level with Alchemical Alacrity when you can stow them but still costs an action to draw them to use.

With quick bomber you can use it with bombs, but otherwise I see your point, the hand thing is a pretty heavy tax, although I'd assume they are stowed like with alchemical alacrity instead of dropped.


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Ganigumo wrote:
graystone wrote:
Ganigumo wrote:
Alchemical chart
This doesn't really fix as much as it breaks as it takes up a hand: Once you get double brew, holding the chart means 1 item drops to the ground for the average alchemist [requiring an action to pick up] and persists until 15th level with Alchemical Alacrity when you can stow them but still costs an action to draw them to use.
With quick bomber you can use it with bombs, but otherwise I see your point, the hand thing is a pretty heavy tax, although I'd assume they are stowed like with alchemical alacrity instead of dropped.

Double Brew doesn't mention stowing items: I think it's assumed you'll be holding one in each hand as it doesn't mention stowing until you get more items than your normal allotment of hands. Now I have no problem is someone wants to houserule stowing with Double Brew but as/is, it looks like you'd have to drop the second one using it with the chart.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ganigumo wrote:
shroudb wrote:


I find poison concentrator to be pretty strong myself.

A poisoner doesn't rely on Quick, instead now he's given the option to halve his poison stash of the day for a +1 to the DC.

That's pretty cool given that Fort is universally the strongest monster save, but also that DC increasing is extremely rare.

This plus pinpoint is a 3 point shift all together which is good.

My issue with that isn't the strength of it, as it, bomb coagulant alembic, and the alchemical chart are all strong enough to consider using.

My issue is the design of the items and how they mesh with the class. These are clearly items that are attempting to "fix" alchemist in some way. Bomb coagulant is trying to let you prepare sticky bombs at the start of the day, and poison concentrator is trying to make the math better for poisons that aren't using powerful alchemy. Alchemical chart is a replacement for enduring alchemy.

I'd much rather just see a proper rewrite/revision of the alchemist, with stuff like this it feels like they're designing in a space they shouldn't, because they won't (or can't), fix the problem at its source.

insight coffee is much the same, it is likely going to be a must have for investigators going forward, because it makes the base function of the class better and like... I feel like we should be avoiding that


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Flamethrower seems absolutely dreadful. It's the same actions as electric arc for equal or worse damage until you get to 11th level, it costs two of your best available bomb, it's once per fight, and its DC is initially low and doesn't scale except for levels 3, 11 and 17.

What am I missing?


I played an Alchemist for the first time since Treasure Vault. My level 1 PFS mutagenist. His second game, but I've been able to feel the difference with the first one.

During his first game, he was using a Horsechopper with Poison applied on it, for 1d8+3 damage + Poison on the first attack. Not bad (Strength-based martials are strong at low level) but very far from Barbarians/Fighters.

Yesterday, I added a few new items. First, I imbibed a few Energy Mutagens to use with Mutagenic Resurgence. I've been able to get an Acid Resistance against the BBEG who would have put me to Dying 4 without that. Second, I added a Weapon Siphon to my weapon, for 1d4 extra fire damage on my 3 first attacks every fight. Total: 1d8+3 + 1d4 during 3 attacks + 1 when I activate my Energy Mutagen + Poison on the first attack. Not a stellar difference but still one I clearly felt as I've been able, with a bit of luck, to outdamage the Animal Barbarian in the party.

So, I keep my point of view: Treasure Vault really buffed the Alchemist. The overall result is more in line with what you can expect from it. The Alchemist still has its reagents per day issue that cripples it outside some specific environments, but it's now a much more solid class.


Weapon Siphon seems like a straight buff to double slice builds. By mid levels, the ongoing cost of weapon siphons is trivial for non-alchemists to afford. Meanwhile the balancing factor of making your MAP worse is completely ignored by people using double slice. In fact I'd argue that weapon siphons help dual-pick fighters much more than they help alchemists, who have no in class method to ignore MAP on subsequent strikes.


I agree it's a straight buff. But it is really small outside the very first levels. Less than 10% after level 6, less than 5% after level 9, and you end up at less than 3% damage increase. Sure, it exists and it's not really needed, but I don't think the game will suffer from it.

On the other side, the low level Alchemist grabs a good 25% extra damage thanks to it. It really helps the class when it needs it most. At high level you remove it from your weapon, but mid to high level Alchemists have much more to offer to a party.

I don't expect much non-Alchemist to use it, but I may be wrong.


Weapon siphon is good on any dual wield build, you can just put it on the main hand weapon if you're something like a ranger.

Its a real shame fury cocktail only comes online at level 4, I think you could combine a weapon siphon and an alchemical gauntlet on a strength alchemist and get some decent results. I suppose you could use energy mutagens or something in the meantime.

For something like weakness or elemental betrayal I assume the weapon siphon/alchemical gauntlet damage is combined with the weapon damage so it only triggers once?


Ganigumo wrote:
For something like weakness or elemental betrayal I assume the weapon siphon/alchemical gauntlet damage is combined with the weapon damage so it only triggers once?

Damage rules are rather unclear so there can't be a definite RAW answer. But I've never seen any GM applying physical resistance to the weapon damage, the Weapon Specialization, Rage extra damage and Sneak Attack independently. So I think we can answer yes for RAI.


I don't think elemental betrayal actually procs off them though.

Elemental betrayal doesn't give energy weakness, it causes effects with that trait to deal extra damage.

And strikes don't inherit traits from the consumables used to gain bonus damage.

If strikes got the traits we would have silly things as being unable to strike with a weapon underwater because it has a fire rune as an example.


shroudb wrote:

I don't think elemental betrayal actually procs off them though.

Elemental betrayal doesn't give energy weakness, it causes effects with that trait to deal extra damage.

And strikes don't inherit traits from the consumables used to gain bonus damage.

If strikes got the traits we would have silly things as being unable to strike with a weapon underwater because it has a fire rune as an example.

"If you chose fire or water, the target also takes this additional damage when taking fire or cold damage, respectively, from effects or spells without the chosen trait."

It works with Strikes, then.


Ah yeah, missed that. It should work for fire and cold then,right.

That opens up a very nice support route then since you can give the whole party fire/cold damage through energy Mutagen.


Energy Mutagen is in my opinion one of the easiest and nicest Mutagen to use. Just put it into the Spider Collar of the martials and they can, at the beginning of the fight, decide to grab a resistance to one element and small extra damage.
When I see people praising the Weapon Siphon, I can only be sure that the Energy Mutagen, which is giving the bonus to all attacks and not only one and who's getting as high as 2d6 extra damage, will be a first pick for a lot of martials.


SuperBidi wrote:

Energy Mutagen is in my opinion one of the easiest and nicest Mutagen to use. Just put it into the Spider Collar of the martials and they can, at the beginning of the fight, decide to grab a resistance to one element and small extra damage.

When I see people praising the Weapon Siphon, I can only be sure that the Energy Mutagen, which is giving the bonus to all attacks and not only one and who's getting as high as 2d6 extra damage, will be a first pick for a lot of martials.

Weapon Siphon affects the next three attacks, not one.


graystone wrote:
Weapon Siphon affects the next three attacks, not one.

The discussion about Weapon Siphon turned around 2-weapon wielder, who gets the bonus on only their first attack.


SuperBidi wrote:
graystone wrote:
Weapon Siphon affects the next three attacks, not one.
The discussion about Weapon Siphon turned around 2-weapon wielder, who gets the bonus on only their first attack.

Are you talking about per round? If you aren't, you get the bonus for 3 attacks in 1 min.

Second, it doesn't have to be an either/or, especially with the Spider Collar. This is especially true if you're looking for a cheap option you can do all the time: you could drop a 3rd level energy mutagen and a 1st level bomb for the siphon every battle once you're high enough but you're going to need a 17th level alchemist or a pile of cash to get an energy mutagen that adds 2d6/attack.

Edit: A weapon monk could really get some mileage out of the siphon with flurry.


graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
graystone wrote:
Weapon Siphon affects the next three attacks, not one.
The discussion about Weapon Siphon turned around 2-weapon wielder, who gets the bonus on only their first attack.

Are you talking about per round? If you aren't, you get the bonus for 3 attacks in 1 min.

Second, it doesn't have to be an either/or, especially with the Spider Collar. This is especially true if you're looking for a cheap option you can do all the time: you could drop a 3rd level energy mutagen and a 1st level bomb for the siphon every battle once you're high enough but you're going to need a 17th level alchemist or a pile of cash to get an energy mutagen that adds 2d6/attack.

Edit: A weapon monk could really get some mileage out of the siphon with flurry.

Yes, I'm talking about per round. I know it affects 3 attacks.

I've never said it had to be either/or, just stating that people should love it as it's more efficient than the Weapon Siphon.


SuperBidi wrote:
Yes, I'm talking about per round. I know it affects 3 attacks.

ok, cool. In that context, it makes sense.

SuperBidi wrote:
I've never said it had to be either/or, just stating that people should love it as it's more efficient than the Weapon Siphon.

Well more efficient as to number of attacks for 2 weapons and actions assuming you're using the spider collar: less efficient as far as cash though, especially if you're could for the highest level energy mutagen unless of course you've access to [or are] an alchemist.


graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
graystone wrote:
Weapon Siphon affects the next three attacks, not one.
The discussion about Weapon Siphon turned around 2-weapon wielder, who gets the bonus on only their first attack.

Are you talking about per round? If you aren't, you get the bonus for 3 attacks in 1 min.

Second, it doesn't have to be an either/or, especially with the Spider Collar. This is especially true if you're looking for a cheap option you can do all the time: you could drop a 3rd level energy mutagen and a 1st level bomb for the siphon every battle once you're high enough but you're going to need a 17th level alchemist or a pile of cash to get an energy mutagen that adds 2d6/attack.

Edit: A weapon monk could really get some mileage out of the siphon with flurry.

I'm not sure flurry is the right way for Weapon Siphon.

In fact I think it's kinda terrible with it.

Pretty sure that at some point, around mid levels, the increased MAP is a far greater loss of damage compared to the small increase in damage.

Especially since you only gain the benefit for 3 attacks while the negative for all attacks.


I didn't even notice the collar of the shifting spider, its a good item, although yet another that could've been an alchemist feat, either as an additive or something that gives your party members an extra action to drink a potion at initiative.

Also for anyone doing multiple attacks you'd only want the siphon on the main-hand weapon.

You could maybe use perpetuals for fill the siphons too? I guess its the exact same issue that was never addressed with toxicologist though, where its unclear if a perpetual poison expires at the end of the turn even if its applied.

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