The new grit


Gunslinger Class


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It's probably too late for this discussion. But I figured I'd bring it up anyway in case it's useful. When the swashbuckler was announced, I was very skeptical because I worried it would step on the toes of the fighter or rogue. I think panache was the difference to me. It encouraged a different play style to the fighter or rogue, but maintained weapon versatility. I wish, instead of being built around guns, the gunslinger was built around a similar mechanic to panache. Similar in that it works with a variety of weapons, but encourages a different play style than either fighter or ranger (the two I feel gunslinger is the closest to).

I was expecting a new grit mechanic to do this. Something that would push the class to play differently with a variety of weapons. My immediate thought is the opposite of panache, so something that discourages showing off and encourages a reserved play style. Like, a bonus on damage any round where you draw your weapon. This follows the cinematic-ness of the quick draw with both guns and katanas.

I love the class feats. I just wonder if an overarching mechanic would help? Thoughts?


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i do wish that the gunslinger had an actual mechanic of its own to differentiate it from, say, a fighter with access to gunslinger class feats. I dont know if grit is it though. That might bring it to close to the swashbuckler.


Making a gunslinger want to play more reserved though basically leaves out all western film inspired stuff though, which is pretty antithetical to the class. Gunslingers are just as showy with trick shots and the like as a swashbuckler, they just brag about it differently.

I'm honestly don't think I dislike the approach of making the gunslinger a fighter with guns. Imo, the fighter's chassis is a lot more focused on melee combat than ranged. Don't get me wrong, you can definitely make an archer fighter, but pretty obvious the class was meant to be a melee one; and the gunslinger fills the niche well for a skilled marksman who relies on accuracy as their main damaging mechanic


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I’ll combine both view points. If anyone has played devil may cry:

Swashbucklers should be like Dante. They taunt tumble and find crazy ways to gain the advantage all in the pursuit of cool. They find anyway to make their fight a show.

Gunslingers should be like Vergil. Concentrated, deliberate. Then explodes in a display of grace and power. Much like a gunslinger in a western it’s all about the suspense and release.

Both show offs and stylish just in different ways.


Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Making a gunslinger want to play more reserved though basically leaves out all western film inspired stuff though

What?

Generally, in westerns, Gunslingers are reserved until they are agitated. Trouble finds them, and then they respond heroically (Man with No Name particularly).

Heck, Tombstone exemplifies this with Wyatt and Doc too, generally, they "play it cool" and then respond ferociously when provoked.

The current class plays far closer to John Wick or the Gunkata from Equilibrium.

As far as "Western vibes" this class exemplifies literally none of those IMO.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, you can definitely make an archer fighter, but pretty obvious the class was meant to be a melee one; and the gunslinger fills the niche well for a skilled marksman who relies on accuracy as their main damaging mechanic

Point Blank Shot is literally a Fighter only feat....


Midnightoker wrote:

What?

Generally, in westerns, Gunslingers are reserved until they are agitated. Trouble finds them, and then they respond heroically (Man with No Name particularly).

Heck, Tombstone exemplifies this with Wyatt and Doc too, generally, they "play it cool" and then respond ferociously when provoked.

Perhaps a misunderstanding on my half of what "reserved" is supposed to mean. The characters themselves are obviously reserved, but the actual gunslinging is dramatic and flashy af.

If we are comparing it to panache, panache has little to do with how the character acts put of combat, it rewards you for /fighting/ flashy, and because we are comparing class features, we should be looking at the situation when those features are actually used.


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Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Perhaps a misunderstanding on my half of what "reserved" is supposed to mean. The characters themselves are obviously reserved, but the actual gunslinging is dramatic and flashy af.

Not really. Going to need an example of this.

The flashiest thing in a western I've seen is Johnny Ringo from Tombstone throwing his Gun around, but that's more of a "perform" check with the weapon and very unique to him.

The Man with No Name is effective and saying that you can't do cool things if you were to make a binary system like Panache is just outright not true.

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If we are comparing it to panache, panache has little to do with how the character acts put of combat, it rewards you for /fighting/ flashy, and because we are comparing class features, we should be looking at the situation when those features are actually used.

That's not true in the slightest. For one, it changes how you approach combat because you can trigger panache by initiating combat in interesting ways.

Two, nothing about the current gunslinger facilitates an "out of combat" approach to combat, so I fail to see how the current iteration "succeeds" at doing what you say.

Three, the person isn't talking about a direct copy of Panache, they are talking about the binary system being used to produce the "grit" of the Gunslinger.

That could be rewarding someone for being reserved to gain grit, and then being flashy when they spend grit. Which does exemplify the type of Gunslinger behavior you'd see in westerns.


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Midnight, that is exactly what I was trying to get at. Like a class ability where you get a bonus on damage with a weapon for the remainder of a turn after you draw it. So instead of having quick draw just in case you weren't prepared, you're incentivized to keep your weapon sheathed until you fight. This plays into both the quick draw of the gunslinger and the samurai. Or a counter move that lets you attack an opponent when they declare an attack against you, but only if your weapon is currently sheathed.

An example I just realized are the main samurai from Samurai Champloo. Mugen is a great example of a Swashbuckler, and Jin is a great example of what I'd like for this class.

As an aside, I really hope some of the more pirate-y gunslinger feats are also available to swashbucklers.


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Jedi Maester wrote:

Midnight, that is exactly what I was trying to get at. Like a class ability where you get a bonus on damage with a weapon for the remainder of a turn after you draw it. So instead of having quick draw just in case you weren't prepared, you're incentivized to keep your weapon sheathed until you fight. This plays into both the quick draw of the gunslinger and the samurai. Or a counter move that lets you attack an opponent when they declare an attack against you, but only if your weapon is currently sheathed.

An example I just realized are the main samurai from Samurai Champloo. Mugen is a great example of a Swashbuckler, and Jin is a great example of what I'd like for this class.

As an aside, I really hope some of the more pirate-y gunslinger feats are also available to swashbucklers.

You're welcome to check out my Homebrew, it's the "Western" trope class that I will continue to work on since the PT Gunslinger definitely appears to be incompletely different theme territory.


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Arguing perspective as a way to enforce class direction seems silly. Rather a class should be able to encompass multiple playstyle variants.

Can a gunslinger be careful and reserved? If course. Sniper.

Can they be more offensive? Of course. Both drifter and pistolero do that in different ways.

It's not a single choice situation imo.


Martialmasters wrote:

Arguing perspective as a way to enforce class direction seems silly. Rather a class should be able to encompass multiple playstyle variants.

Can a gunslinger be careful and reserved? If course. Sniper.

Can they be more offensive? Of course. Both drifter and pistolero do that in different ways.

It's not a single choice situation imo.

I was more trying to find a unique niche that doesn't overlap with other classes. A unique mechanic that this class alone excels at. Like a rogue's sneak attack and a ranger's hunt prey. Because grit and panache were related in 1e, I figured it'd make a good jumping off point. But I think any overarching meta mechanic to define the class would help it tremendously. Even if it has nothing to do with panache.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:

Midnight, that is exactly what I was trying to get at. Like a class ability where you get a bonus on damage with a weapon for the remainder of a turn after you draw it. So instead of having quick draw just in case you weren't prepared, you're incentivized to keep your weapon sheathed until you fight. This plays into both the quick draw of the gunslinger and the samurai. Or a counter move that lets you attack an opponent when they declare an attack against you, but only if your weapon is currently sheathed.

An example I just realized are the main samurai from Samurai Champloo. Mugen is a great example of a Swashbuckler, and Jin is a great example of what I'd like for this class.

As an aside, I really hope some of the more pirate-y gunslinger feats are also available to swashbucklers.

Your welcome to check out my Homebrew, it's the "Western" trope class that I will continue to work on since the PT Gunslinger definitely appears to be incompletely different theme territory.

This is legit cool, and more what I was expecting. Thanks for sharing!


Jedi Maester wrote:


I was more trying to find a unique niche that doesn't overlap with other classes. A unique mechanic that this class alone excels at.

Maybe it's just me, but isn't the ability to leverage misfire exactly what makes this Class unique while at the same time affecting playstyle by foring you to do calculated risk on certain abilities.

I agree that there could be more feats which did something with misfire, and maybe the features should be baked into the Class to make it more obvious.

And I know, so far we mainly get "do something cool with a gun, but add misfire chance" such as Risky Reload, Alchemical Shot etc, but I can see so much more happening with misfire than just this.

Anyway, that was just my two cents


Tweezer wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:


I was more trying to find a unique niche that doesn't overlap with other classes. A unique mechanic that this class alone excels at.

Maybe it's just me, but isn't the ability to leverage misfire exactly what makes this Class unique while at the same time affecting playstyle by foring you to do calculated risk on certain abilities.

I agree that there could be more feats which did something with misfire, and maybe the features should be baked into the Class to make it more obvious.

And I know, so far we mainly get "do something cool with a gun, but add misfire chance" such as Risky Reload, Alchemical Shot etc, but I can see so much more happening with misfire than just this.

Anyway, that was just my two cents

I'd be down for this, but it only applies to the gun part of the class. Crossbows are now supposed to be a built in class option. And there are reasonable requests for slings. If the misfire mechanic is the unique bit, it should play with all the weapon options.

Paizo Employee Designer

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One thing to note is that Legendary proficiency cannot be compatible with a system akin to panache, because that's too much collectively. There's the high damage baseline of Legendary or there's the "do something cool and then get a bonus on the next attack using this subsystem" paradigm. Since we know how the latter works, that's one of the reasons we went with Legendary for the playtest.

The other reason is that the swashbuckler already has a super tight action economy to keep pumping their Panache and finishers, and that doesn't play well with reload mechanics at all; we already notched all the firearms back to reload 1 from reload 2 before the public playtest because reload 2 just isn't fun when it's your main gimmick, and then you need a bunch of bespoke abilities to increase your reload beyond what even a ranger gets, making guns go from "balanced but capable of explosive damage in the hands of a skilled wielder" to "unbalanced and inaccessible to anyone who doesn't take a bunch of feats whose only purpose is rebalance guns and make them accessible".

Whether to have Legendary proficiency or another mechanic like Grit is on the survey though, so please remember to fill that section out with your thoughts!


That's awesome! It's so cool to know you're listening and willing to change that much of the playtest! And thank you for giving insight into some of your design choices.

Another thing I think a "grit" system would help with is allowing more shared feats. There are a few feats/abilities I think would fit fantastically with other classes. In particular the melee/ranged drifter feats with the swashbuckler, and the sniper feats for a ranger. Without an overarching mechanic, I'd imagine the class feats become much more important to the class identity. If it would help other classes enjoy these abilities, using a firearm or crossbow, I'd be that much more in favor of grit.


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I feel like if the decision was to exchange legendary proficiency for a new class mechanic, then the guns themselves would need to be changed appropriately. As it is, the only thing keeping parity between guns and crossbows is the higher critical damage which is empowered by the proficiency gain. Even with that boon, the damage mock ups I've seen have martial guns behind or close to short bows for damage and mostly behind composite short bows. Without the added crit chance to take advantage of the fatal trait on firearms, I feel like they'd be that much more behind other ranged options. I'm not necessarily opposed to a trade, but that is something to consider.

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