Kineticist needs to be THE blaster class


Kineticist Class

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Beriliand wrote:

As I understand it you only need to use 2 actions to adapt element and at the same time select one of the options available, gather in this case, so 3 actions to gather 2 elements.

I agree it is not action efficient but it is the only way to work around the restriction from gather element atm.

That's assuming the option you want is available which is not likely to be the case.

Not to mention it "being the only way" is completely arbitrary. There is literally no reason outside their arbitrary choice of "you can only gather once and only 1 element" as opposed to "you gather elements period".

Wayfinders

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Beriliand wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:

This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.

My group and I were discussing about this topic and we came across a solution, you can have an element gathered with gather element which uses your inner gate and use the gather option from adapt element to gather another element in your free hand since it doesn't use your inner gate as it says:

Gather (any element) You Gather the Element, drawing it from the environment instead of from your inner gate.

As a master I would rule you can do this since you are using two different sources for each element. So you can have an elemental weapon in one hand and use the other hand to use ranged blast attacks.

Hm... You're still Gathering the Element as a subordinate action to Adapt Element, so all the rules of that action still apply even if it has a different source. It's a fun houserule but it doesn't work per the text unfortunately.

All this talk of Elements and Masters is making me very excited to play some sort of Automaton Kineticist...


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If they don't tweak the damage, I hope blasting has a larger role or make it so you can blast more often along with your 2 action impulses. The action tax is the kicker. I like the unique attacks the class gets but I don't like that they compete so hard for your actions with your other abilities.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

i see a few ways they could go about it, first there needs to be a booster of SOME KIND on the basic blast, every single other martial has one, it doesnt need to be constant but it should be something they can reliably access in a fight, so that they are at least SOMEWHAT competative in single enemy encounters

Second just... something has to give with overflow impulses, they have bad damage, bad range, bad dc and bad action economy, I think improving the action economy could fix it on its own or they could improve the damage+some other thing

Horizon Hunters

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I saw some comments that make me go "wow". What's the point in reducing the Kneticist's utility to make it a Blaster-type?

If you reduce the Kneticist's versatility in manipulating the elements just so he can fireball out of his hands, why not play a spellcaster then? (There are many options available to support this style from classes, archetypes, familiars, spells, items... And many more in the upcoming rage of elements i hope).

Changing the subject I feel, not all of them, but most of the negative comments I've seen so far are from people who literally want a transcript from Kineticist 1e to 2e and end up influenced by this thought when criticizing the class. Even before the PDF was available, the designers said that the Kineticist would not follow this path. (Live from Saturday gencon).

My fear is that at the time of reporting our playtest results, people will talk more about mechanics that don't exist in the playtest and less about the playtest itself.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The surveys are pretty good at asking directing questions that give the developers the information that they are looking to collect. Fill out the surveys. Developers pay attention to the playtest discussion board for getting broad senses about things, but they look to the surveys for details.

Wayfinders

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Romão98 wrote:

I saw some comments that make me go "wow". What's the point in reducing the Kneticist's utility to make it a Blaster-type?

If you reduce the Kneticist's versatility in manipulating the elements just so he can fireball out of his hands, why not play a spellcaster then? (There are many options available to support this style from classes, archetypes, familiars, spells, items... And many more in the upcoming rage of elements i hope).

As much as I genuinely do really like how utility-y and world-affecting the class is, I think that for many people the problem is that there's not quite enough of that versatility for the lack of power and vice versa. Blaster fans don't have enough Blast for their buck and Utility fans don't have much of a fallback option if they pick utility-based Impulses over the basic AoE Impulses. IMO this especially impacts Multi-Element blasters with their fewer feats and more options, though they at least have far more ways to use Adapt Element.

Distilling some of those comments, people seem to want:
(Pseudo-)Martial Damage Booster for Attack Blasters
AND/OR
Increased DC Scaling for DC Blasters
...in addition to the utility we currently have, which is rad but could be seen as akin to reduced spellcasting, which means that we may be due some sort of helpful somethingorother for our basic Blast attacks (like the Magus has) or Impulse cantrip-equivalents (like the Psychic has).

I'm not sure that I necessarily agree with all of that, as I've not playtested it yet, but I think it's a lot deeper than people just wanting to replace all the cool toys with Moar Blast. I do agree, however, that it would be best not to expect Full-Martial DPS if we want the utility to stay, which I certainly do.

Myself, I'd rather an emphasis on cool weapon traits and abilities on the Blast than raw damage, but those can switch in quite easily with damage increases so that may be possible to work in alongside number-go-big options.


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Romão98 wrote:

I saw some comments that make me go "wow". What's the point in reducing the Kneticist's utility to make it a Blaster-type?

If you reduce the Kneticist's versatility in manipulating the elements just so he can fireball out of his hands, why not play a spellcaster then? (There are many options available to support this style from classes, archetypes, familiars, spells, items... And many more in the upcoming rage of elements i hope).

It's quite simple honestly. A lot of people want a mage-flavored character that specializes in big kaboom damage. A lot of people have wanted that ever since the game released. Big kaboom mage is not very well supported by the game, because spellcasters are too versatile to do high damage. Kineticist appears as a much more specialized mage option, which unlike actual casters, would have room for that. It also used to be big kaboom mage in the previous edition. Playtest Kineticist arrived and it's nowhere near a big kaboom mage. People are disappointed.

Seriously, if I want a versatile magic user, I already have nine options for that. Meanwhile being a dedicated blaster is a role that I don't think any other class, before or after, can fit as well within their flavor.


I think another important thing about the kineticist is that it's a very efficient switch hitter by the nature of it's attacks. More support for skirmishing and a switch hitting style of play would be welcome. Efficient movement + strike(s) impulse abilities would be pretty cool.


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dmerceless wrote:
Romão98 wrote:

I saw some comments that make me go "wow". What's the point in reducing the Kneticist's utility to make it a Blaster-type?

If you reduce the Kneticist's versatility in manipulating the elements just so he can fireball out of his hands, why not play a spellcaster then? (There are many options available to support this style from classes, archetypes, familiars, spells, items... And many more in the upcoming rage of elements i hope).

It's quite simple honestly. A lot of people want a mage-flavored character that specializes in big kaboom damage. A lot of people have wanted that ever since the game released. Big kaboom mage is not very well supported by the game, because spellcasters are too versatile to do high damage. Kineticist appears as a much more specialized mage option, which unlike actual casters, would have room for that. It also used to be big kaboom mage in the previous edition. Playtest Kineticist arrived and it's nowhere near a big kaboom mage. People are disappointed.

Seriously, if I want a versatile magic user, I already have nine options for that. Meanwhile being a dedicated blaster is a role that I don't think any other class, before or after, can fit as well within their flavor.

The fun thing is, with how focused the utility kineticist can bring, and with how easy to control what they can and cannot do is, upgrading their damage to big kaboom mage status shouldn't cause them to overshadow any other existing class.

Don't get me wrong, Kineticist utility is really strong, but that was never the issue with spellcasters in the first place. The issue with casters is that they can do mostly ANYTHING, and thus, need to have slighly lower damage and base stats to not overshadow other classes.


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I'm in the camp that wants a slightly higher single target focus. Aoes and utility shenanigans are things we already have plenty of caster classes for. I'd rather the kineticist be a dedicated ranged pew pew guy of elemental damage. I realize that's not a very exciting class for a lot of people and possibly the designers as well. However, after a few sessions playing it I'll leave my survey feedback and let it all shape up how it will. The playtest material is super interesting, which is promising at least. The class just seems spread a little thin with all the boxes it wants to check (which is probably intentional since it's a playtest). I'm guessing the results will dictate what's turned up and what's dialed back.


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
I'm in the camp that wants a slightly higher single target focus. Aoes and utility shenanigans are things we already have plenty of caster classes for. I'd rather the kineticist be a dedicated ranged pew pew guy of elemental damage.

Agreed. I do like the utility options it has and there should be those options to specialize in but there should also be stuff to dig graves. Even if only earth kineticists can do that literally.


aobst128 wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
I'm in the camp that wants a slightly higher single target focus. Aoes and utility shenanigans are things we already have plenty of caster classes for. I'd rather the kineticist be a dedicated ranged pew pew guy of elemental damage.
Agreed. I do like the utility options it has and there should be those options to specialize in but there should also be stuff to dig graves. Even if only earth kineticists can do that literally.

I mean, every class can do that literally. A shovel is 1 gp


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Aoes and utility shenanigans are things we already have plenty of caster classes for.

Yeah, but something we have no martial classes for. The closest we get to martial utility is stuff like a rogue's debilitating strikes and the closest we get to real martial aoe is the handful of abilities inventor gets.

Meanwhile if you want to hit someone at range for single target damage... that's literally every martial in the game and even kind of what the psychic does too.

The kineticist needs to be something more than someone with a shortbow but it's made out of rocks.


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Squiggit wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Aoes and utility shenanigans are things we already have plenty of caster classes for.

Yeah, but something we have no martial classes for. The closest we get to martial utility is stuff like a rogue's debilitating strikes and the closest we get to real martial aoe is the handful of abilities inventor gets.

Meanwhile if you want to hit someone at range for single target damage... literally every martial can pull that often.

The kineticist needs to be something more than someone with a shortbow but it's made out of rocks.

Pretty much this. A martial that is competent at single target damage (I would say comparable to Monk or Champion), and really good at AoE, with some thematic strong utility on top is an actual niche the game needs to fill.

For those of you that disagree, look at it this way. Would a class with just the damaging AoE capabilities of a caster, the single target damage of a low-end martial and some strong, but very narrow utility, be umbalanced? I don't think so. i think it would be an awesome adition to the system.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
roquepo wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
Aoes and utility shenanigans are things we already have plenty of caster classes for.

Yeah, but something we have no martial classes for. The closest we get to martial utility is stuff like a rogue's debilitating strikes and the closest we get to real martial aoe is the handful of abilities inventor gets.

Meanwhile if you want to hit someone at range for single target damage... literally every martial can pull that often.

The kineticist needs to be something more than someone with a shortbow but it's made out of rocks.

Pretty much this. A martial that is competent at single target damage (I would say comparable to Monk or Champion), and really good at AoE, with some thematic strong utility on top is an actual niche the game needs to fill.

For those of you that disagree, look at it this way. Would a class with just the damaging AoE capabilities of a caster, the single target damage of a low-end martial and some strong, but very narrow utility, be umbalanced? I don't think so. i think it would be an awesome adition to the system.

i would rather specialize in single target and have less emphasis on aoe, but that is mostly because ive been burned against single boss encounters too many times lol


Nitro~Nina wrote:
Beriliand wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:

This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.

My group and I were discussing about this topic and we came across a solution, you can have an element gathered with gather element which uses your inner gate and use the gather option from adapt element to gather another element in your free hand since it doesn't use your inner gate as it says:

Gather (any element) You Gather the Element, drawing it from the environment instead of from your inner gate.

As a master I would rule you can do this since you are using two different sources for each element. So you can have an elemental weapon in one hand and use the other hand to use ranged blast attacks.

Hm... You're still Gathering the Element as a subordinate action to Adapt Element, so all the rules of that action still apply even if it has a different source. It's a fun houserule but it doesn't work per the text unfortunately.

All this talk of Elements and Masters is making me very excited to play some sort of Automaton Kineticist...

If that'd be the case, why would the designers use the same effect with two different action economy features? It is pointless to use gather with adapt element which spends 2 of your actions vs using gather element that is a 1 action feature with no using limit, moreover both features have the manipulate trait which means they trigger AOO.

Bad or rushed design or intentional? I wish I knew.


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It might be a result of them having made 4 different versions of the class and then picked parts of each to make the playtest version.

Wayfinders

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Beriliand wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Beriliand wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:

This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.

My group and I were discussing about this topic and we came across a solution, you can have an element gathered with gather element which uses your inner gate and use the gather option from adapt element to gather another element in your free hand since it doesn't use your inner gate as it says:

Gather (any element) You Gather the Element, drawing it from the environment instead of from your inner gate.

As a master I would rule you can do this since you are using two different sources for each element. So you can have an elemental weapon in one hand and use the other hand to use ranged blast attacks.

Hm... You're still Gathering the Element as a subordinate action to Adapt Element, so all the rules of that action still apply even if it has a different source. It's a fun houserule but it doesn't work per the text unfortunately.

All this talk of Elements and Masters is making me very excited to play some sort of Automaton Kineticist...

If that'd be the case, why would the designers use the same effect with two different action economy features? It is pointless to use gather with adapt element which spends 2 of your actions vs using gather element that is a 1 action feature with no using limit, moreover both features have the manipulate trait which means they trigger AOO.

Bad or rushed design or intentional? I wish I knew.

My suspicion is that they have thought of this, and that it's because that will be the only way for the Multiclass Kineticist to Gather an Element. That'd make Multiclassing much more about getting the full Blast (which works with a lot of other Martials' damage boosters) without having Overload actions be quite so easy to access. Just my suspicion, and I admit that that may be partially because I really really want that to be the case.


It does seem like Fighter will be the best Blast Kineticist if the Archetype gives access to Gather and Blast without any changes.

Edit: or not, this wouldn't fall under Brawling.

Wayfinders

Guntermench wrote:
It does seem like Fighter will be the best Blast Kineticist if the Archetype gives access to Gather and Blast without any changes.

I wonder if that's not intentional.

To once again reference the obvious touchstone, and apologies if these names mean nothing to you, Toph and Azula may be full Kineticists with all the varied abilities so implied, but Zuko (who relies mostly on martial skill combined with elemental blasting) could be some sort of Rogue with a Kineticist Dedication.

I think I'd like that, actually. A Geo-Investigator who lines up his rock-shots like Bolin would be rad (and work really, really well with a firearm Elemental Weapon), and a sneak-attacking PyRogue assassin who uses Desert Shimmer as an in-combat stealth tool would be really fun too.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
It does seem like Fighter will be the best Blast Kineticist if the Archetype gives access to Gather and Blast without any changes.

I wonder if that's not intentional.

To once again reference the obvious touchstone, and apologies if these names mean nothing to you, Toph and Azula may be full Kineticists with all the varied abilities so implied, but Zuko (who relies mostly on martial skill combined with elemental blasting) could be some sort of Rogue with a Kineticist Dedication.

I think I'd like that, actually. A Geo-Investigator who lines up his rock-shots like Bolin would be rad (and work really, really well with a firearm Elemental Weapon), and a sneak-attacking PyRogue assassin who uses Desert Shimmer as an in-combat stealth tool would be really fun too.

the problem is a kinetic blast is not a "strike" so it does not intigrate into most martial classes unique mechanics at all

Wayfinders

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Kekkres wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
It does seem like Fighter will be the best Blast Kineticist if the Archetype gives access to Gather and Blast without any changes.

I wonder if that's not intentional.

To once again reference the obvious touchstone, and apologies if these names mean nothing to you, Toph and Azula may be full Kineticists with all the varied abilities so implied, but Zuko (who relies mostly on martial skill combined with elemental blasting) could be some sort of Rogue with a Kineticist Dedication.

I think I'd like that, actually. A Geo-Investigator who lines up his rock-shots like Bolin would be rad (and work really, really well with a firearm Elemental Weapon), and a sneak-attacking PyRogue assassin who uses Desert Shimmer as an in-combat stealth tool would be really fun too.

the problem is a kinetic blast is not a "strike" so it does not intigrate into most martial classes unique mechanics at all

It includes a strike as a subordinate action, which means that it works alright with a fair few of them. Magus and Swash are probably bad ideas as only the non-nova half of their kit works, but here's the list as best I can tell:

Barbarian's Rage: Yes (melee only)
Champion's Reaction: No
Fighter's Accuracy/Feat Actions: Yes/No
Gunslinger: N/A
Inventor's Overdrive: Yes (especially Armor Innovation for Offensive Boost as unarmed bonuses explicitly work with Elemental Blast)
Investigator's Devise a Stratagem: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Magus' Arcane Cascade/Spellstrike: Yes/No (melee only)
Monk's Flurry of Blows: No
Ranger's Hunter's Edge: Yes (but the feats often don't)
Rogue's Sneak Attack: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Swashbuckler's Precise Strike/Finishers/Riposte: Yes/No/No (melee finesse/agile only)
Thaumaturge's Mortal Weakness/Personal Antithesis/Implement's Empowerement: Yes*/Yes*/Yes (*assuming that the weakness is ruled as a bonus to your unarmed strike; arguably RAW no)

Every single No answer is also allowed by Elemental Weapon with a few more caveats, including some of the Gunslinger's reload actions.


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Nitro~Nina wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
It does seem like Fighter will be the best Blast Kineticist if the Archetype gives access to Gather and Blast without any changes.

I wonder if that's not intentional.

To once again reference the obvious touchstone, and apologies if these names mean nothing to you, Toph and Azula may be full Kineticists with all the varied abilities so implied, but Zuko (who relies mostly on martial skill combined with elemental blasting) could be some sort of Rogue with a Kineticist Dedication.

I think I'd like that, actually. A Geo-Investigator who lines up his rock-shots like Bolin would be rad (and work really, really well with a firearm Elemental Weapon), and a sneak-attacking PyRogue assassin who uses Desert Shimmer as an in-combat stealth tool would be really fun too.

the problem is a kinetic blast is not a "strike" so it does not intigrate into most martial classes unique mechanics at all

It includes a strike as a subordinate action, which means that it works alright with a fair few of them. Magus and Swash are probably bad ideas as only the non-nova half of their kit works, but here's the list as best I can tell:

Barbarian's Rage: Yes (melee only)
Champion's Reaction: No
Fighter's Accuracy/Feat Actions: Yes/No
Gunslinger: N/A
Inventor's Overdrive: Yes (especially Armor Innovation for Offensive Boost as unarmed bonuses explicitly work with Elemental Blast)
Investigator's Devise a Stratagem: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Magus' Arcane Cascade/Spellstrike: Yes/No (melee only)
Monk's Flurry of Blows: No
Ranger's Hunter's Edge: Yes (but the feats often don't)
Rogue's Sneak Attack: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Swashbuckler's Precise Strike/Finishers/Riposte: Yes/No/No (melee finesse/agile only)
Thaumaturge's Mortal Weakness/Personal Antithesis/Implement's Empowerement: Yes*/Yes*/Yes (*assuming that the weakness is ruled...

Many class features so say "weapon or unarmed strikes" which blasts are neither. It's something you never used to notice until now. Rogues and investigators are off the table. I think it leaves just barbarians, rangers, and inventors that can use their class features with blasts. Although, inventors can't apply offensive boost to blasts, only overdrive.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

impulses are also concentrate so rage is off the table

Wayfinders

aobst128 wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
the problem is a kinetic blast is not a "strike" so it does not intigrate into most martial classes unique mechanics at all

It includes a strike as a subordinate action, which means that it works alright with a fair few of them. Magus and Swash are probably bad ideas as only the non-nova half of their kit works, but here's the list as best I can tell:

Barbarian's Rage: Yes (melee only)
Champion's Reaction: No
Fighter's Accuracy/Feat Actions: Yes/No
Gunslinger: N/A
Inventor's Overdrive: Yes (especially Armor Innovation for Offensive Boost as unarmed bonuses explicitly work with Elemental Blast)
Investigator's Devise a Stratagem: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Magus' Arcane Cascade/Spellstrike: Yes/No (melee only)
Monk's Flurry of Blows: No
Ranger's Hunter's Edge: Yes (but the feats often don't)
Rogue's Sneak Attack: Yes (ranged or finesse/agile only)
Swashbuckler's Precise Strike/Finishers/Riposte: Yes/No/No (melee finesse/agile only)
Thaumaturge's Mortal Weakness/Personal Antithesis/Implement's Empowerement: Yes*/Yes*/Yes

Many class features so say "weapon or unarmed strikes" which blasts are neither. It's something you never used to notice until now. Rogues and investigators are off the table. I think it leaves just barbarians, rangers, and inventors that can use their class features with blasts. Although, inventors can't apply offensive boost to blasts, only overdrive.

I did notice this, actually. Per Elemental Blast, any damage bonus which applies to Unarmed Strikes also applies to blasts, so Rogues certainly still work. They still don't count as Unarmed Strikes (so Thaumaturge arguably doesn't function due to different wording on the weaknesses you can apply), but everything else I've mentioned should. Including the Armor Inventor's Offensive Boost.

The Investigator... *checks wording*, hm, actually, the Investigator only works if you consider substituting your Intelligence as a bonus applied to unarmed attacks, which I honestly would as you are just changing the bonus applied from Dex/Str to Int. That said, it's a little more arguable than I had initially presented, and "abilities that work with unarmed strikes" would probably be better wording for Elemental Blast if that is the intent.

Wayfinders

Kekkres wrote:
impulses are also concentrate so rage is off the table

Darn. That's a good point. Elemental Weapon only for Barbs, then.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
impulses are also concentrate so rage is off the table
Darn. That's a good point. Elemental Weapon only for Barbs, then.

which is a shame because a barbarian geomancer would be cool as hell


Kekkres wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
impulses are also concentrate so rage is off the table
Darn. That's a good point. Elemental Weapon only for Barbs, then.
which is a shame because a barbarian geomancer would be cool as hell

You can always take the lvl 1 barbarian feat Moment of Clarity that allows you to use concentrate actions while raging.


Even Inventor and Investigator cannot benefit from MC with the Kineticist.
Due the Subordinate Actions restriction Devise a Stratagem don't work because "If you Strike the chosen creature later this round, you must use the result of the roll you made to Devise a Stratagem for your Strike's attack roll instead of rolling. You make this substitution only for the first Strike you make against the creature this round, not any subsequent attacks." as Elemental Blast isn't a pure Strike, Devise a Stratagem cannot be applied to it too.
Same for Inventors "Your gizmos go into a state of incredible efficiency called critical overdrive, adding great power to your attacks. Your Strikes deal additional damage equal to your Intelligence modifier for 1 minute. After the Overdrive ends, your gizmos become unusable as they cool down or reset, and you can't use Overdrive for 1 minute.
Magus' spellstrike doesn't apply too: "You channel a spell into a punch or sword thrust to deliver a combined attack. You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell don't occur immediately but are imbued into your attack instead. Make a melee Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack. Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don't apply the penalty until after you've completed the Spellstrike. The infusion of spell energy grants your Strike the arcane trait, making it magical." and even Arcane Cascade works because the Impulses aren't spells.
Ranger cannot benefit from many feat but Flurry Ranged reduced MAP and Precision Damage can (precision Ranger could benefit even from Spell Attacks).
Thaumaturge also don't benefit Elemental Blast due Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis only applies to unarmed and weapon Strikes, Implement's Empowerment also only works with Strikes.
Rogue Sneak Attack also don't work because requires unarmed or weapon Strikes. Elemental Blast fails to achieve both conditions.

In the end only martial class than can benefit from some eventual Kineticist Archetype is the Ranger (but with many feats unavailable for Elemental Blast). Similar situation happens to Kineticist with some other archetype, mostly feats simply don't work with Impulses.

I hope that designers review the currently Impulse system otherwise the Kineticist will become inviable to Archetype with anyone.

Beriliand wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
impulses are also concentrate so rage is off the table
Darn. That's a good point. Elemental Weapon only for Barbs, then.
which is a shame because a barbarian geomancer would be cool as hell
You can always take the lvl 1 barbarian feat Moment of Clarity that allows you to use concentrate actions while raging.

The problem is the action economy of this. And you still don't receive the Rage damage benefit "You deal 2 additional damage with melee Strikes. This additional damage is halved if your weapon or unarmed attack is agile."

Wayfinders

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YuriP wrote:

Even Inventor and Investigator cannot benefit from MC with the Kineticist.

Due the Subordinate Actions restriction Devise a Stratagem don't work because "If you Strike the chosen creature later this round, you must use the result of the roll you made to Devise a Stratagem for your Strike's attack roll instead of rolling. You make this substitution only for the first Strike you make against the creature this round, not any subsequent attacks." as Elemental Blast isn't a pure Strike, Devise a Stratagem cannot be applied to it too.
Same for Inventors "Your gizmos go into a state of incredible efficiency called critical overdrive, adding great power to your attacks. Your Strikes deal additional damage equal to your Intelligence modifier for 1 minute. After the Overdrive ends, your gizmos become unusable as they cool down or reset, and you can't use Overdrive for 1 minute.
Magus' spellstrike doesn't apply too: "You channel a spell into a punch or sword thrust to deliver a combined attack. You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell don't occur immediately but are imbued into your attack instead. Make a melee Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack. Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don't apply the penalty until after you've completed the Spellstrike. The infusion of spell energy grants your Strike the arcane trait, making it magical." and even Arcane Cascade works because the Impulses aren't spells.
Ranger cannot benefit from many feat but Flurry Ranged reduced MAP and Precision Damage can (precision Ranger could benefit even from Spell Attacks).
Thaumaturge also don't benefit Elemental Blast due Mortal Weakness and Personal Antithesis only applies to unarmed and weapon Strikes, Implement's Empowerment also only works with...

I understand your point, and you're right about Spellstrike, but a subordinate Strike is still a Strike. The overall Action you're taking isn't a Strike, so nothing triggers off that overall Action and it can't be used when another ability says "do a Strike" (as with Spellstrike), but the subordinate Strike still activates any abilities that apply to Strikes (such as Rage, which doesn't care whether or not your Strike happens as part of another action).

Your interpretation would imply that, for instance, Barbarians don't get Rage damage on the subordinate Strike from Attack of Opportunity, which makes Giants cry. It'd also mean that Runes like Flaming ("an additional 1d6 fire damage on a successful Strike") wouldn't apply on the subordinate Strike from Retributive Strike, which would make Paladins cry. That seems unlikely.


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dmerceless wrote:
Romão98 wrote:

I saw some comments that make me go "wow". What's the point in reducing the Kneticist's utility to make it a Blaster-type?

If you reduce the Kneticist's versatility in manipulating the elements just so he can fireball out of his hands, why not play a spellcaster then? (There are many options available to support this style from classes, archetypes, familiars, spells, items... And many more in the upcoming rage of elements i hope).

It's quite simple honestly. A lot of people want a mage-flavored character that specializes in big kaboom damage. A lot of people have wanted that ever since the game released. Big kaboom mage is not very well supported by the game, because spellcasters are too versatile to do high damage. Kineticist appears as a much more specialized mage option, which unlike actual casters, would have room for that. It also used to be big kaboom mage in the previous edition. Playtest Kineticist arrived and it's nowhere near a big kaboom mage. People are disappointed.

Seriously, if I want a versatile magic user, I already have nine options for that. Meanwhile being a dedicated blaster is a role that I don't think any other class, before or after, can fit as well within their flavor.

I think part of the problem is that big kaboom damage is actually two different things in practice: single target boom and multi target boom. You won't get to be the best at both at once. You can't be as good as a martial at single target damage if you want to bring any other advantages to the table. I think you could outperform casters at multi-target, as casters bring other tools, but is multi-target damage actually too low past level 4? I feel like once Lightning Bolt and Fireball come into play, if you're hitting 2 or 3 monsters you're probably dealing plenty of damage anyway. Feels like only problem is resource expenditure.

This is all without tapping into balancing their utility options as well.


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Captain Morgan wrote:


I think part of the problem is that big kaboom damage is actually two different things in practice: single target boom and multi target boom. You won't get to be the best at both at once. You can't be as good as a martial at single target damage if you want to bring any other advantages to the table. I think you could outperform casters at multi-target, as casters bring other tools, but is multi-target damage actually too low past level 4? I feel like once Lightning Bolt and Fireball come into play, if you're hitting 2 or 3 monsters you're probably dealing plenty of damage anyway. Feels like only problem is resource expenditure.

This is all without tapping into balancing their utility options as well.

well lets compare a magus, who has significantly better single target boom all day long, and if they grab expanded spell strike, they have vastly better multi target boom 4 times a day, now i dont expect an at will ability to compare to fireball spellstrike, but it should probably do more than skater skree spellstrike,


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Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:


I think part of the problem is that big kaboom damage is actually two different things in practice: single target boom and multi target boom. You won't get to be the best at both at once. You can't be as good as a martial at single target damage if you want to bring any other advantages to the table. I think you could outperform casters at multi-target, as casters bring other tools, but is multi-target damage actually too low past level 4? I feel like once Lightning Bolt and Fireball come into play, if you're hitting 2 or 3 monsters you're probably dealing plenty of damage anyway. Feels like only problem is resource expenditure.

This is all without tapping into balancing their utility options as well.

well lets compare a magus, who has significantly better single target boom all day long, and if they grab expanded spell strike, they have vastly better multi target boom 4 times a day, now i dont expect an at will ability to compare to fireball spellstrike, but it should probably do more than skater skree spellstrike,

Starlit Span Magus is probably the best point of comparison, yeah. They even both have recharge action mechanics. So the biggest difference there is the magus has limited slots. So how much do at will abilities make up for that?

I'll point out that Logan Bonner was also the lead on the Magus, and it had a lot of similar complaints about consistent DPR in its playtest, but we wound up with a solid final class. Investigatot followed a similar pattern. I think he undershoots in the playtest but then has no problem making significantly stronger final releases. Which is feels a little tumultuous to the player base, but he's gotten some good results out of it.

Edit: TBH I think Expansive Spell strike is the wrong point of comparison, though, because it severely limits your targeting abilities. The Overflows are comparitively very flexible. But you can still use a magus casting fireball+striking.


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Still probably a good idea for people to let them know the playtest feels weak though (if that's what they feel).


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:


I think part of the problem is that big kaboom damage is actually two different things in practice: single target boom and multi target boom. You won't get to be the best at both at once. You can't be as good as a martial at single target damage if you want to bring any other advantages to the table. I think you could outperform casters at multi-target, as casters bring other tools, but is multi-target damage actually too low past level 4? I feel like once Lightning Bolt and Fireball come into play, if you're hitting 2 or 3 monsters you're probably dealing plenty of damage anyway. Feels like only problem is resource expenditure.

This is all without tapping into balancing their utility options as well.

well lets compare a magus, who has significantly better single target boom all day long, and if they grab expanded spell strike, they have vastly better multi target boom 4 times a day, now i dont expect an at will ability to compare to fireball spellstrike, but it should probably do more than skater skree spellstrike,

Starlit Span Magus is probably the best point of comparison, yeah. They even both have recharge action mechanics. So the biggest difference there is the magus has limited slots. So how much do at will abilities make up for that?

I'll point out that Logan Bonner was also the lead on the Magus, and it had a lot of similar complaints about consistent DPR in its playtest, but we wound up with a solid final class. Investigatot followed a similar pattern. I think he undershoots in the playtest but then has no problem making significantly stronger final releases. Which is feels a little tumultuous to the player base, but he's gotten some good results out of it.

comparing the two the kineticist trades the ability to nova for big nukes for... larger aoes with less damage? you are loosing out on the weapon dice, have the same action economy of 2 + reload, sure its over a larger area but in many fights that doesnt mean anything, and in terms of single target our starlight span can put out similer or supirior numbers with their bow than the kineticist can with their blasts, but span magus ALSO has the option to supe up their single target damage. Utility is a bit more messy, Kineticist can pick up a bunch of utility abilities that are legitimatly free and only 2 actions, while magus have their studious spells, have the option to prep utility and have access to scrolls and staves, but all of those things are more limited.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Magi doing area of effect attacks with their 4 spell slots underwhelm very badly. I have GM’d for 2 Magi. One started with us at level 8 or 9. And decided to remake their character after making level 11 because they felt like spell striking with AoEs was a great disappointment and it just made more sense to cast The buffing spells they wanted as fighter with wizard MC.

Getting hit with Attacks of Opportunity when trying spell strike killed it for the player.

The othe Magi I have GM’d for leaned into single target spell striking and loved it. Pretty vanilla shocking grasps heightened to top level and enough true strikes to make them land + produce flames and the character did very well bringing down big targets.

Some times classes having options to do something they are not good at turns into a big unfun sinkhole and I think the Kineticist should be careful about that.

I think it makes sense for first level saving throw infusions to eventually become bad as the kineticist levels up (with perhaps some situational advantages that could be worth flexing into for a day to exploit when necessary). By level 8 or 9 1st level feats should probably be getting used mostly for utility/defensive auras.

The trick is that 8th level usually brings on the big awesome utility power, so you don’t want the replacement AoE really competing there.

Having more feats at each level is a little problematic for book space purposes, but it is probably necessary to keep Kineticists feeling like their new power is the one they want to use as often as they can


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Unicore wrote:

Magi doing area of effect attacks with their 4 spell slots underwhelm very badly. I have GM’d for 2 Magi. One started with us at level 8 or 9. And decided to remake their character after making level 11 because they felt like spell striking with AoEs was a great disappointment and it just made more sense to cast The buffing spells they wanted as fighter with wizard MC.

Getting hit with Attacks of Opportunity when trying spell strike killed it for the player.

That type of character should be starlight span: you don't get AoO [you're firing ranged] and you often get to greatly increase your spells range and even orientation of cones and such [you can aim a cone back at yourself or up in the air]. I've never had a complaint playing this way: my issue is with the AoO on a non-reach melee build, AoE or not.

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