We've now gone around the Inner Sea and hit nearly all the 10 core Meta-Regions with threads like this, but I'd like to cross off one of the remaining two today: the Eye of Dread! Belkzen, the Gravelands, the Isle of Terror, Lake Encarthan, Molthune, Nirmathas, Oprak, and Ustalav make up this area in the heart of Avistan, lands with a grim bent and a fair bit of 1e nostalgia behind them.
The threat of the Whispering Tyrant and his ceaseless ranks of undead defines the region; I imagine putting the hurt on him is going to either going to coincide with 2e Mythic rules or the end of the edition, if not both, but the area's too popular to wait forever for.
And that's what motivates this thread, really - I largely came in with the release of 2e, and so I'm utterly lacking nostalgia for the Eye of Dread. I want to know what you love about it, and what you'd love to see expanded on, added to, or finally resolved within its borders! While Knights of Lastwall offered a taste, I'm not currently a fan, but y'all managed to make me see the light in regards to the Saga Lands, and repeating that success here would be a real treat.
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Everything! Joking aside the Eye of Dread is something that I've always held fondly. I love Ustalav and it's gothic/cosmic horror inspirations. I love the direction Paizo is taking the orcs of Belkzen in 2e. I love undead so the Gravelands is a wonderful playground to put whatever monstrosities I want in there. In addition I'm currently running an open world game set in the region, so every bit of information I could get would be useful. Names of orc Holds, names and levels of notable undead in the Gravelands, the political dynamics in Ustalav. The only things that I wouldn't be able to make much use out of would be things about Molthune, Nirmathas, and Oprak, and even then I read through Ironfang Invasion and intend to run it, so getting more info on that region and more context on characters is nice.
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I'd appreciate being sold on Molthune and Nirmathas some. I hate to say it, but both feel pretty dull to me - what am I missing when I see two feuding countries of militant humans?
Oprak rocks (pun mostly not intended), and Belkzen similarly scratches the itch for "monster" nations being given more nuance and depth than you normally see. I feel a little overexposed on the classic Hammer horror of Ustalav (and Ravenloft, and Innistrad), but its opportunities to get weird with things like the airships from Guns & Gears or its alien-serving cults get me very excited.
I'm not personally all that excited by Tar-Baphon as a bad guy (I've seen a big, mean lich plenty of times before), but the patchwork and tenuous nature of the alliance allayed against him is really compelling. The potential to have a stereotypical party consist of something like a Dhampir Inventor, a Hobgoblin Champion of Iomedae, an Orc Oracle sworn to Sarenrae, and a Skeleton Thaumaturge all together on horror-adjacent adventures is a lot of fun.
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Eye of the Dread is kinda interesting region since its common connecting factor is "countries directly on path of Tar-Babhon's invasion". Lot of the countries wouldn't other wise really fit together in the same group.
Isle of Dread is fairly synonymous with Tar-Babhon, since its treated as "scary dungeon island" rather than country. I think with Tar-Babhon there is bit of mixed up thing with him in lore: pre being released he was treated in lore as this "Super badass villain who is scary" but when you actually look at him between the lines, he is "All mighty idiot". He is basically skeletor with too much powers. A megalomaniac who will waste wish spell to create explosive entrance or perform mortal kombat fatality and spam disintegrate because he can and not because its tactically good. He players like highly powered PC wizard vs lower level mooks just reveling in the carnage.
I personally prefer the slightly comedic sociopath version of him to the "ultimate evil bad guy" version of him, but I think lore should commit on portraying him in the one way and have other characters in setting treat him appropriately.
Lastwall -> Gravelands is fairly interesting topic. Like Lastwall wasn't particularly lacking in potential, its main problem interest wise (besides lack of focus) was that its entire purpose is to guard the seal, so that did restrict it thematic wise a lot. And it really made sense for nation to be destroyed when lich got out and 2e has been doing really good job with turning Knights of Lastwall into interesting faction that is now being more active and offensive rather than passive and defensive. Gravelands is also good post apocalyptic undead zone which we really never had in this massive scale in setting before, so its good as showing threat of Tar-Babhon. I just hope that once paizo isn't afraid of 1e ap spoilers we see more of the radiant fire explosion created mutant jungles ;D
But yeah besides Lastwall all of 1e countries in region actually had a campaign setting book huh.(also means I'll avoid going to super long detail on any of them because uh not gonna summarize multiple books worth of "each country's regions" content) So let's move to easiest one to describe, Ustalav! To nobody surprise the gothic horror land has several APs, Modules and scenarios even books set there so its one of the more used Avistani countries and for good reason. Its good for providing all classic horror flavor and now in 2e we have tesla coil shenanigans too. Plus its not just classic universal movie monsters, there is also lovecraftian horror here(complete with local occult university). Atmosphere of Ustalav is pretty nice ya. Also citizens are mostly varisians so thats alternate to nomadic roma inspired varisians from varisia and elsewhere.
Hold of Belkzen is already in fairly good place from 1e tbh. Sure its bit stereotyped as "wasteland nation" but there is a lot of interesting locales, orc tribes detailed were distinguished from each other and there were interesting characters (still sad the visionary orc leader got killed off in 2e though at least his right hand is continuing his vision of "Orcs really should get into economics and country building") There were at least two different portals to two different evil planes(qlippoth lord's and velstract demagogue's domains) among my personal favorite locales. Also orc pantheon in itself is fun. 2e avoiding the "orcs get united by strong bad guy into army" thing with "orcs kinda getting sick of being treated as disposable mooks so now they take fight to bad guy" thing was fun surprising direction too :D Especially since it complicates their foreign relations to countries previously hostile to them.
Molthune and Nirmathas got both detailed in same campaign setting book, which makes sense since they are really really interconnected. Truth about Molthune and Nirtmathas conflict is this: Its Lawful vs Chaos conflict of the setting really. I think main problem here though is that it kinda shows up Paizo's chaotic bias again since more accurately its "LN imperialistic jerks vs CG plucky guerilla fighters", even if lands of conflict tries to portray it as "below nationalistic pride, its that Molthune care about law and order even if it leads to imperialism while Nirmathas values personal freedom to extreme even if it leads to rabble rousing".
Ancient history wise Molthune was populated by elves and fey(still lot of fey in region) then orcs conquered area, then after whispering tyrant and orcs were repelled pre devil worshipping cheliax settled the land with Molthune as a province. So that is why lot of Molthune shares similarities with Cheliax(including color red!), its pretty much descended from pre devil worshipping version of them and declared independence when Aroden died and cheliax civil war started.
(yeah both Molthune and Nirmathas are fairly new countries)
Molthune does good job at being LN antagonistic human faction with strict order that doesn't go to Hellknight over the top lengths. Nirmathas I honestly think would benefit more form being more CN since while plucky rebels vs jerks is good and all, it makes conflict less ideological and more ethical if one side is also morally righteous ones :p
Anyway, there are some interesting locales on both sides (like Molthune side Palace of Virtue is monastery where several of elder monks are secret dragons, on nirmathas side I'm feeling soft on Kraggodan just because I played dorf in ironfang invasion and campaign went on perma hiatus on book 2 so I never got to see it :p ), but as lands of conflict book name implies, 1e Nirmathas and Molthune's dealio and why they are duo is essentially being the setting for war themed games. Kind of ironic that Ironfang Invasion ignores Molthune for most part and interrupts the war :'D But yeah, with 2e new status quo, Molthune and Nirmathas has truce going on so its now shifted to more of cold war dynamic and they need more development to develop them to new direction.
Oprak is fairly interesting just by its premise: evil military conquest faction settling down and trying to start economy and diplomacy to establish itself as country while also providing new ways for "monstrous people" to show their talents besides just war.
I’d appreciate if Molthune felt at all sympathetic enough to play a character from, as I lone LN characters, especially spies. Are there any nonhumans other than those dwarves in either country?
What other nonhumans are in the region, other than orcs and hobgoblins? Are there any potential Ancestries that would be new to 2e?
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From the top of my head I know that there is a notable population of fetchlings living in Molthune, next to the border to Nidal. At least notable enough that I picked it up somewhere.
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I’d appreciate if Molthune felt at all sympathetic enough to play a character from, as I lone LN characters, especially spies. Are there any nonhumans other than those dwarves in either country?
What other nonhumans are in the region, other than orcs and hobgoblins? Are there any potential Ancestries that would be new to 2e?
As you mentioned, dwarves are commonly found in the region. There are a few other groups that are textually referenced in Lands of Conflict in a way that's more than just a one-off NPC with that ancestry:
Molthune:- Bronze Dragons (the only community of sorts mentioned - a monastery they live in and try to help, but avoid taking leadership positions)
- Ogres (also a community, frustrated with the mistreatment from humans after attempts to join Molthuni (military) society, they're planning to attack Molthune. They're also pretty common across parts of Nirmathas)
- Fetchlings (they have a town called Doommark close to the Nidalese border, and the general's second in command in the region is a fetchling herself)
Nirmathas:
- Half-elves seem particularly common here compared to other ancestries, though there's not much in the way of elven communities detailed
- The settlement of Crystalhurst, a druidic settlement that is one of the more diverse places in the region, with centaurs, gathlains, and ghorans listed as examples of the more unexpected groups found commonly in the settlement. The art depicts an orc/half-orc druid here too.
- Treant populations deep in the forest from the days when elves were more common
- Natural werebears are explicit allies of Crystalhurst and sound fairly organized
- A wide array of fey are mentioned throughout the book, and the Fangwood is very much filled with fey.
From my experience running Ironfang Invasion, I'd say there are a few other groups that could be interesting here in Nirmathas (Molthune isn't touched in the AP):
- Harpies, particularly the Carrion Brides, who formed an agreement with the local cities ~20 years ago to interact peacefully.
- Minotaurs - they were quite common in parts of the Ironfang Invasion's forces, and presumably came from the local area
- Ratfolk don't seem to be native to the area, but there's a community of them near the mining towns that have settled in with great success
In general, I find Molthune to be the weaker of the two. Nirmathas is an interesting attempt by Paizo to explore a minimally hierarchical society that is Good aligned, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything in there. It's also got the fey + druid interactions that give you something other than an exclusive focus on the Nirmathi-Molthuni conflict. I find Molthune suffers in that exclusive focus - it has some stuff about its interactions with Cheliax/Isger/Druma, but not very much. The parts of Molthune that interests me are that it is technically a LN society, and their interactions with "monsters". They have these "monstrous regiments" in their army that include just about anyone in their armed forces - ogres, goblins, hobgoblins, minotaurs, and the like. In a way it's more accepting of groups that otherwise are just excluded from most societies, but they also keep them seperate from the rest of their society and don't treat them well. It also really doesn't feel particularly LN from its interactions so far, but theoretically an ex-Chelish state that rebelled against Cheliax but stayed relayed close to Chelish ways is interesting to me, and I find Paizo has a pretty bad track record with making LN states into ones that are borderline LE, so grounds to revisit Molthune and look at it with a new light is interesting to me. Combining that with the monstrous regiments would be an interesting direction for the nation to go for me - a fairly radical acceptance of groups that are otherwise considered monsters in an LN state would definitely be one I'd like to see!
Other things that may be of interest is Nirmathi raids into Nidal to liberate slaves - I find Nidal an interesting place, but it tends to be extremely isolated and doesn't interact much with the surrounding world. If Nirmathas' Molthune problems came to an end, Nidal has been stated as the area that Nirmathas would most oppose.
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a bunch of lovely stuff
I appreciate such an insightful reply! If Molthune is my best angle on getting Minotaurs playable in the Inner Sea, then that sees them climb my list pretty significantly. Them trying to treat their “monsters” better to try and avoid a repeat of Azaersi’s trick would give them some much-needed depth. Citizenship for anyone and anything that serves feels very LN, and letting them be so pragmatically egalitarian helps them be more than "the militant jerks."
My opinion of Molthune and Nirmathas at present is "the fash kingdom against the Robin Hood rebel state," and that's understandably unappetizing. If they lean harder into 'monster' citizens being accepted in the former and fey likewise defining the latter, that's a pair I'm much more excited about, and that feels much more distinctly Golarion. Scouts drawing on the power of the Eldest clashing with disciplined minotaur ranks - or better yet, uncomfortably working together? Yes, please.
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I'm greatly interested in the diplomatic relations between Nirmathas, Molthune, and Oprak and how in every interaction between any two they play the third against the other.
I think the Nirmathas/Molthune thing gets a lot interesting when you add Oprak to the mix. Since Molthune can remind her about how they gave her a chance as a soldier (never mind the other stuff) and Nirmathas can remind her of the Nirmathi heroes that saved her from disaster and helped her secure her own kingdom for her people. Mothune can remind Nirmathas that "it was Oprak that invaded and burned your cities not us." Finally Nirmathas can remind Azersi about what happened after she got her start in Molthune's legion of monsters.
This is a much more fun dynamic than "Molthune wants to conquer Nirmathas and Nirmathas doesn't want that." Particularly since Oprak has the potential to be an economic powerhouse particularly given how everybody south of Lake Encarthan needs to consider their military readiness seriously.
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a bunch of lovely stuffI appreciate such an insightful reply! If Molthune is my best angle on getting Minotaurs playable in the Inner Sea, then that sees them climb my list pretty significantly. Them trying to treat their “monsters” better to try and avoid a repeat of Azaersi’s trick would give them some much-needed depth. Citizenship for anyone and anything that serves feels very LN, and letting them be so pragmatically egalitarian helps them be more than "the militant jerks."
My opinion of Molthune and Nirmathas at present is "the fash kingdom against the Robin Hood rebel state," and that's understandably unappetizing. If they lean harder into 'monster' citizens being accepted in the former and fey likewise defining the latter, that's a pair I'm much more excited about, and that feels much more distinctly Golarion. Scouts drawing on the power of the Eldest clashing with disciplined minotaur ranks - or better yet, uncomfortably working together? Yes, please.
Exactly what I was thinking! Them responding to Azaersi's actions by instituting a rule that citizenship for anyone who serves, no matter what both makes sense to emphasise that it is an LN state, and given the new existence of Oprak, it does seem like an effective way to try to keep those regiments they'd previously relied on and otherwise may be heading to Oprak. Some of the art of Molthune does seem inspired by Rome (though much of it more classically medieval fantasy), which this would tie into well. Some degree of egalitarianism like this definitely does have textual support as well - from one of the more influential minotaurs in the Ironfang Invasion AP:
In Molthune, her physical power and strategic mind were not only respected, but feared. As one of the army’s terrifying mercenary legions—the War Maze— [redacted] and her followers grew powerful and wealthy by crushing humans distracted by petty squabbles.
And as both you and PossibleCabbage mention, an uneasy alliance between Oprak, Molthune, and Nirmathas with the emergence of Tar-Baphon (and the intrigue that is surely happening alongside that) seems like an interesting perspective for the region, opening it up to more than just the relatively one-note conflict that was previously there between Molthune and Nirmathas.
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and I find Paizo has a pretty bad track record with making LN states into ones that are borderline LE
Ye this is definitely issue. I don't mind occasional LN or CN bad guys, but Paizo is definitely biased as treating Chaotic as automatically "more good than Lawful" and even LG sometimes get treated as "lesser good"
It's also why I think Molthune leaning more into "monsters can earn citizenship through service" and such would make it more 3d dimensional while not completely leaving their jerk status behind. Like, Molthune needs extra gimmick to it than "relatively mundane and less over the top malicious pompous military state" to it which just makes it seem like lesser Cheliax.
a bunch of lovely stuffI appreciate such an insightful reply! If Molthune is my best angle on getting Minotaurs playable in the Inner Sea, then that sees them climb my list pretty significantly. Them trying to treat their “monsters” better to try and avoid a repeat of Azaersi’s trick would give them some much-needed depth. Citizenship for anyone and anything that serves feels very LN, and letting them be so pragmatically egalitarian helps them be more than "the militant jerks."
My opinion of Molthune and Nirmathas at present is "the fash kingdom against the Robin Hood rebel state," and that's understandably unappetizing. If they lean harder into 'monster' citizens being accepted in the former and fey likewise defining the latter, that's a pair I'm much more excited about, and that feels much more distinctly Golarion. Scouts drawing on the power of the Eldest clashing with disciplined minotaur ranks - or better yet, uncomfortably working together? Yes, please.
This idea for Nirmathas is also really good because it both makes nation feel moer fantasy and makes sense as already established.
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Molthune could be reeling from the Ironfang events and assessing the worth of the monsters as soldiers (then citizens) system. Monstrous citizens and high-ranking military officials who backed the system might sponsor like-minded soldiers, both humans and monsters, to prove the worth of this system in front of the far greater threat of Tar-Baphon.
While those with entrenched prejudices might try and sabotage these efforts to make sure the promotion system ends for good.
In a way, it is a font of military tropes, plots and dilemna.
The thing about both Molthune and Nirmathas is that the cultures are very set in their ways to the extent of being somewhat self-defeating. The Imperial Governor and the Forest Marshal hate each other, but they could have multiple in-depth conversations about the uphill battles they fight trying to save their peoples from themselves.
(Speaking of which: how is the "no slavery" rule going to work with Molthune? Their underclass was specifically called out as being slaves in all but name)
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I have an adventure I'm working on whose background is basically: a powerful undead lieutenant of Tar-Baphon has gathered up an army in the Gravelands and laid siege to Vellumis, the last stronghold of the Knights of Lastwall. In response, an emergency coalition of troops from Molthune, Kraggodan, Nirmathas, and Oprak marched out to relieve the siege, but were intercepted by the undead rearguard and lost that big battle.
That's where the adventure begins, with the PCs trying to escape the battlefield alongside whatever allied units than can save/persuade and desperately trying to hold this fractious & mistrustful alliance together to keep them all alive. So it would be a running battle back toward Nirthmathi/Oprak territory, seeking a place to turn and make a stand so undead hordes don't just roll down the western Lake Encarthan nations.
I have the Molthuni as basically being a "citizen-service" type of polity, prizing their national identity and willing to welcome anyone who will assimilate--but they have to assimilate, if Molthune tolerated dissent and melting pots they wouldn't have been fighting Nirmathas for sixty year.
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It's not too hard to imagine the Ironfang Invasion prompting some pragmatic reforms, up to and including the abolition of slavery. All who serve the state are equal... in theory, anyway, and LOWG shows some tension there between those who recently earned their citizenship (including a number of 'monsters') and the old elite.
While I wait for Minotaurs, it might be fun to roll up a Molthuni Gnoll of some sort.
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I wouldn't mind seeing Molthune as the meritocratic country. The militarization makes them (theoretically) partially there already.
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I wouldn't mind seeing Molthune as the meritocratic country. The militarization makes them (theoretically) partially there already.
Molthune is clearly an aristocracy.
Which is why they hate Nirmathas.
(and if you think militarism can equate with meritocracy, I got a bridge to sell you)
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I wouldn't mind seeing Molthune as the meritocratic country. The militarization makes them (theoretically) partially there already.Molthune is clearly an aristocracy.
Which is why they hate Nirmathas.
(and if you think militarism can equate with meritocracy, I got a bridge to sell you)
It's a military oligarchy, which while similar is not an aristocracy.
I recognize the inherent difficulties in establishing a meritocracy, and acknowledge that militarization does not equate to such. Saying that I would like to see it as one does not mean I am in any way confused by the actual state of things. I was merely expressing my desire to explore that concept in this particular fiction, as it is thematically an easy (and to me at least, satisfying) jump.
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Here's an angle that's not yet been discussed - what's the religious makeup of the area? What gods and other faiths are common around here, that could theoretically show up in an EoD book? We're in the middle of Avistan, so presumably every core god has at least a modicum of presence, but which faiths might stand out here?
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Pharasma is the top lady in Ustalav (which is also my favorite country in Golarion, so I am ALWAYS delighted t to see it get any screentime at all.) There's demon lords out and about too, of course...
Here's an angle that's not yet been discussed - what's the religious makeup of the area? What gods and other faiths are common around here, that could theoretically show up in an EoD book? We're in the middle of Avistan, so presumably every core god has at least a modicum of presence, but which faiths might stand out here?
PFS has specific groups of both Sarenite orcs out of Belkzen and Iomedean hobgoblins from Belkzen.
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There's a part of me that just will not let go of a haggard Molthuni veteran... who just happens to be a Shoony. This little greying pug-person, barking orders and rallying defenses for the country that gave her citizenship.
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Here's an angle that's not yet been discussed - what's the religious makeup of the area? What gods and other faiths are common around here, that could theoretically show up in an EoD book? We're in the middle of Avistan, so presumably every core god has at least a modicum of presence, but which faiths might stand out here?
Religion does seem to be something that large parts of the region treat differently to the standard model in Pathfinder of picking a single deity to worship. Molthune seems more traditional in that manner - a Prince-Archbanker (cleric of Abadar) de-facto runs the city of Braganza, and clerics are mentioned as common in more mundane positions like prison guards. Although Nirmathas does have some clerics present in it (Cayden Cailean and Erastil seem the most common from the textual evidence), but nature-based faiths that don't necessarily involve traditional deities are particularly common across the nation - with the Fangwood basically regarded as Nirmathas' national guardian, the forest itself is almost worshiped. There's also an interesting tidbit that the worship of Iomedae is common in Nirmathas - originally coming down from Lastwall with retired knights, but nowadays worshiped as a deity of just self-rule, which is a very interesting interaction between an LG deity and a CG society. Gorum and Milani are mentioned as semi-popular deities, in the places you'd expect, and Calistria among the more vengeful of Nirmathas' populace. In recent releases, they fey queen of the Fangwood Gendowyn has been released as a deity, presumably worshiped in Nirmathas more than most locations. We haven't got much information on Oprak, but I'd imagine Hadregash is a particularly common deity in the region - he certainly was among the Ironfangs before they settled.
In addition to the (very cool) Burning Sun mentioned by keftiu in the Holds of Belkzen, there are also the expected candidates: Rovagug, Lamashtu, Gorum, Urgathoa (though Urgathoa and Gorum are considered human/elf gods, and some deride them), and the orcish pantheon of deities (all CE). There is an interesting note in Belkzen, Hold of the Orc Hordes that orcs avoid explicitly saying the name of a deity, including their own - speaking the name of a god draws their attention, and that rarely is considered a good thing. There might be additional details outside of the Hold of Belkzen campaign setting book, but the Burning Sun are the only group I know that are pushing back against the stereotypical orc deities in Belkzen - but it definitely feels like Paizo has been making an effort in that direction in recent years, so hopefully we'll get to see some interesting and more nuanced takes on Orcish religion in a book like this.
Ustalav definitely has two key deities above all others - Pharasma and Urgathoa. It features a lot of secret cults, underground religious societies, and complex intrigues relating to religion - but surprisingly few of them have actually been detailed so far. The one I find most interesting that has been detailed is The Harlequin Society in the city of Karcau - they're secretly a cult of Alichino, the malebranche responsible for leading the attempt by Hell to conquer Golarion. It's an interesting plot point that hasn't really been focused on so far, and that could be fun to flesh out.
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I'd appreciate a 2e look at the Orc Pantheon. The Mwangi Expanse dodged it pretty cleverly with them revering Majagua/Kazutal (which I loved!), but at some point there needs to be a reckoning of some sort with the gods of this people all being CE and monstrous. As a gal whose formative fantasy years featured the orc nation of Many-Arrows being founded despite all expectations, I'd really love to similarly fall for Belkzen and its people, and their faith is part of that.
As for Ustalav's cults, the Night Heralds are my preference; the Dominion of the Black are my single favorite antagonists in Pathfinder, and I find the explicit Lovecraft elements a little hokey when they pop up. Bring on the fleshfarms!
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Honestly kinda wondering what is up with Orc pantheon because in 1e they each had four domains which was usually sign of them being demigods. Like is orc pantheon just bunch of ascended orcs who became god-like in Volkorgoth?
yeah, i thought they were sorta like hero-gods...
Honestly kinda wondering what is up with Orc pantheon because in 1e they each had four domains which was usually sign of them being demigods. Like is orc pantheon just bunch of ascended orcs who became god-like in Volkorgoth?yeah, i thought they were sorta like hero-gods...
The wiki seems to explicitly call them this, but I’m not in a place to double-check its sources at the moment.
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There's a post in a thread relating to the original Inner Sea Gods where James Jacobs directly states that the orc gods are demigod, though explicitly not demon lords despite them all giving the demon subdomain.
I can't find any citation for the idea of the orc pantheon being orcs who ascended to godhood; that idea isn't presented in Belkzen, Hold of the Orcs or Inner Sea Gods. Belkzen actually states that ancient orc tradition holds that the orc pantheon created the orcs & each blessed the orcs with a different trait, specifying that Nulgreth gave them their rage & Sezelrian their intelligence. Given the orcs pf1e ability adjustments, Sezelrian did them dirty.
A lot of the info on the orc gods seems poorly thought out even in terms of "I'm going to write up an evil deity". Like, Dretha, Lanishra, and Varg, as written, all come off much more lawful evil & they're only chaotic evil because Inner Sea Gods established them all as chaotic evil because orcs are chaotic evil & that's the extent of the thought that went into it. There's also nothing in Rull's writeup that really casts him as evil at all. Not good, certainly but he definitely comes up as more of a force of nature.
There's probably an issue of word count at play here but the book can't quite make up it's mind as to whether the pantheon is worshiped as a group or whether each tribe picks one of the male gods & casts Dretha as that one's mate; it does seem to be communicating that both happens but it still comes off as a bit muddled.
I imagine that part of this goes back to Paizo originally not wanting to give the orcs their own set of gods. Going back to Orcs of Golarion the idea was that one tribe might worship Gorum as the Blood God or the Iron God & Rovagug as the Destroyer or the Thunderer, that the Dark Mother was just Lamashtu, and that the others might be any number of demon lords, and that the whole thing was a bit of a mess in that a tribe might worship Gorum & Rovagug but think of them as one entity.
On the one hand that was probably intended as experimenting with the idea of how the core gods were viewed through different cultural lense. After all, Distant Worlds didn't go into any detail about alien gods because it suggested that they'd just be the core gods under different names. But on the other hand it certainly came off to an extent as "the orcs are too stupid and primitive to really have a sense of who or what they're actually worshiping".
So as for how to update them... well, Inner Sea Gods covers some bases & hedges some bets in saying that the orc gods were poorly understood because orc culture wasn't well understood, & mentioned that worship of the gods would vary from tribe to tribe, specifically calling out Nulgresh as being worshiped as a raging berserker in one tribe & a god of weapon skill in another, leaving room for some nuance.
Some of them certainly need to remain evil, however much you flesh them out. There isn't a way to make Lanishra & Verex not evil gods, if you even want to keep them around.
Planar adventures mentions that there are "countless orc demigods" in Volkorgoth with the eight being just the most common worshiped on Golarion. Maybe the play is to introduce a couple new ones who aren't so horrible.
Belkzen, Hold of the Orc Hordes also mentions one tribe with a fledgling Sarenrae worship starting up. Valani & Tolc always struck me as Empyreal Lords who'd be good fits for orc culture.
BHotOH also mentions another god, Brumash, who's very clearly meant to be Gruumsh, or rather, covering up for an earlier mention in Orcs of Golarion of a terrifyingly powerful "one-eyed god" that was very clearly meant to be Gruumsh, though the book half implies Brumash doens't exist & is a gestalt of Verex & Zagresh. I don't know if they want to use Brumash as a replacement for the more problematic members of the orc pantheon since he's a name they've already established or if going with a one eyed god of the orcs wouldn't be treading too close to getting sued.
Anyway all of that is to say that Belkzen, orc culture, and the orc pantheon are absolutely things at the top of my list for what I'd want out of this book, to the point where I'd almost be more interested to Belkzen getting it's own full sized hardcover book in the same way that Highhelm is.
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What do I want of Eye of Dread.. mm.. Just some rambling thoughts
Belkzen- I am not an Orc aficionado, though I do rather enjoy half orcs in human lands. However, I love the fact Belkzen essentially spat in the eye socket of the Whispering Tyrant who snapped his bony fingers and expected them to fall in line. One has to admire the chutzpah involved there! And it's a good in game reason to force the various orc tribes too coordinate with each other and even consider doing so with outsiders. One line in the Lost Omens World guide caught my eye "For the first time in millennia, Belkzen’s orcs value caretakers, artisans, and negotiators—not just its warriors" . This is a great opportunity for a group of players to have influence on the very culture either as Orcs themselves or outsiders who are sympathetic to the orc causes (to a point anyway). I can see 'traditionalist' orcs grousing at the orcs who want to embrace new ways. I want to see a Belkzen finding some strength as one people while struggling to figure out how much they need to redefine themselves.
The Gravelands/Lastwall- I will miss Lastwall that was. However realistic they are or aren't, I've got a weakness for the rare Lawful Good shining beacon monarchy bit ;) That said, I can't be mad about what Paizo has done because it is being done so well. Lastwall has fallen and become the Gravelands, but the defeat of the forces of good has actually made the good shine all the brighter in a lot of ways. Nothing quite like a seemingly lost cause for some campaigns to rally around.
Mostly though, I want to know what happened to Three Pines Ford! A sizable town named after 3 dryad trees. Is it destroyed? Corrupted? Holding on thanks to the protection? Frankly, I think somewhere in there is a great little adventure for 1st level (or even zero levelers) in which they find themselves charged carrying three seeds to safer lands. It's an odd thing to get hung up on, but yeah I'd love to get a mention on the town's final fate and the fate of the people there.
Molthune- The Lost Omens World Guide seems to indicate Molthune's higherups are divided between being willing to put old ambitions on hold and work with enemies to resist the Whispering Tyrant, and those who feel a severe loss of face and see this need for unity as all the more reason Molthune should take over other places. I can easily see a 'for the greater good' excuse going full blown, LN or no. That said, apparently Molthune has a good influx of Lastwall refugees. It could be a strain on their economy or a shot in the arm for their military reserves... or both. I do wonder if the remaining non humamns in Molthune are a bit worried they'll be under a bit of a backlash for fear they will pull another Oprak.
Nirmathas- I love this little disorganized nation. Elements of Robin Hood and Backwood against a neighboring nation that acts like they're it's Home Owners Association. I am a big fan of the Crypt of the Everflame so Nirmanthas made a good impression on me from the start. But man, is it in trouble. Molthune was one thing, then Ironfang invasion happened and Nirmathas took the brunt of it. Now, their northern border went from 'Land of Honorable knights' to 'Brainz Buffet Badlands!'. If I were a Nirmathan I might start asking which of the gods we pissed off? Like Molthune, Nirmathas has a large rush of Lastwall Refugees moving in. I actually want to see the effect this happens. Is Kassen booming with new comers and going from town to small city? Or is a new settlement of former Lastwallers forming their own town? I am fond of Nirmathas. I hope it can hold on. But I can also see Molthune and Oprak plotting to 'work with it' then carve it up between them later.
Oprak- I know just enough spoilers about Ironfang Invasion to have a problem/ disagreement about a certain Artifact being in Hobgoblin hands. I don't think most PC groups would have let that slide. Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, it's done. The Hobgoblins came, they conquered, they set up a homestead. Honestly, they appear to be the success story of the Eye of Dread. The threat of the Whispering Tyrant was something they were going to have to face anyway even if they stayed with Molthune. Now they can face the challenges on their terms. I'm just not sure either Molthune OR Nirmathas would have any reason to trust them. They played the former for fools, and tore off a chunk off the latter's border. The approach of "Well, the past is past, let's trade" maybe a hard sell even with undead threats. Still, Molthune might forgive much if it means getting the other half of Nirmathas' southern border.
Ustalav- With Lastwall lost to the Gravelands, I think Ustalav might prove to be the 'Pros from Dover' who actually have the best chance of uncovering some hoary bit of lore that will do PC hero types the most good. I'm not that big a horror fantasy fan, but I do get a certain dark chuckle that Ustalav might come to the rescue. It would be a bit like having the Addams Family showing up to help Ash and his friends fight the Evil Dead to me, but I think I could get behind that.
It's almost a shame that the Eye of Dread is on such a wartime footing, because Oprak's place as an interplanar mercantile power is fascinating - as is their potential to be the fastest gateway to Tian Xia, albeit through the nasty endpoint of militant Kaoling.
If the hobgoblin nation can survive the next few decades, they'll be rich enough to make Druma look shabby.
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The interesting thing about Oprak is how the pre-existing hobgoblin culture is going to adapt to their best path forward to legitimacy and indeed fabulous riches is "trade and diplomacy". It is for sure a culture shock, and it would be interesting to get the "tradition vs. progress" cultural battle in a nonhuman people who aren't Dwarves.
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I've always thought that hobgoblins would be really cool as an isolationist Sparta-like military culture (declaring war on their own farm workers every year to keep them in line and let their recruits practice is absolutely something hobgoblins would do, though I wouldn't want to bring helots into an Inner Sea version when the region has been making such abolitionist strides), not exactly popular with their neighbours but not indiscriminate either. But even Spartans weren't just soldiers, and it would be interesting to see what a hobgoblin city can produce in terms of amenities and philosophy. As long as the forces of Tar-Baphon are out there to keep their security needs in perspective, Ironfang Legionaries fighting alongside Nirmathasian rangers and regiments of Molthuni soldiers, having to get used to each other, would be neat to see - briefly reading Losw Omens World Guide, there doesn't seem to be any formal alliance between the three, but given the pressing threat of the lich it would make sense, and having undead to hone their skills on and land in the Gravelands to reclaim and colonise would satisfy the warmongers among both Oprak and Molthune. And like Sparta, in the long term it's probably an alliance that can't hold, and if they ever actually overcame the lich the imperial ambitions of Molthune would inevitably lead to a confrontation. And if Oprak and Belkzen ever allied, Nirmathas is in trouble. But for the moment, a tenuous understanding holds.
I like Oprak as the Gallant to Kaoling’s Goofus, if that makes sense; both are Lawful societies of militant hobgoblins, but one understands that interplanar trade and local alliances will get you more than making enemies endlessly raiding your neighbors.
Deeply curious to see relations between the two explored eventually.
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local alliances
Well, that's a bit much. Treaties of peace with sunset clauses (which is what Oprak has with Nidal and Nirmathas) do not alliances make. The only local power that appears to have anything close to an alliance with Hadregash are the erstwhile Knights of Lastwall, and even that's more a relationship of dependence.
It does, however, make for some nice schadenfreude to see a premier LG organization serving as mercenaries for a rising LE power.
With the word now out that Cheliax has abolished slavery (in favor of unfair contracts, massive debt, and being pressed into the military), one assumes Molthune is headed down a similar road - likely the "service guarantees citizenship" model floated above.
Listen, if the Isle of Terror can be our Isle of Dread, and we can get aranea in the game, I'd be thrilled. We could say "aranea" is the Avistani term for a northern island-limited population of especially unsettling anadi.
Okay, this isn't really engaging with the prompt in good faith. I'll think about it.
EDIT: Having actually looked up the Isle of Teror's preexistent lore, I feel incredibly silly. X3
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With the word now out that Cheliax has abolished slavery (in favor of unfair contracts, massive debt, and being pressed into the military), one assumes Molthune is headed down a similar road - likely the "service guarantees citizenship" model floated above.
Heck, Molthune pioneered that method, it's less like it's going down the same road and more like Cheliax is rushing down that road to catch up with them! ;)
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Casting raise dead on this thread, since minotaurs being introduced as a playable ancestry (alongside things like hobgoblins and kholo being made core in Player Core 2 next summer) has reminded me about how much potential this region has again - and the more time passes by without major developments in the area, the more I get itchy for it considering how much it's been set up as a metaplot threat for the Inner Sea as a whole.
And surrounding the Remaster wizard schools, the idea that was floated at PaizoCon of an Ustalavic school of electric+ghost magic as a bespoke player option also sounded incredibly cool...