I understand that Asmodeous's muse is a fantastical version of Satan, but is not Satan. Satan has the title "Prince of Lies". I could not find that title for Asmodeous. I believe that Asmodeous and his priests would detest lies. A lie reviled could undo a contract. Add to this that forgery is one of the greatest sins. I believe that they make contracts in their favor thru intellect and skill not deception. They would not be above manipulating someone into a desperate situation where they knowingly sign a bad contract, but again a lie could/would let them out of the contract.
The main source of my confusion is the novel Prince of wolfs by Dave Gross. He refers to Asmodeous as the prince of lies multiple times in it. Is this cannon or a mistake? This seams to me to be a fundamental question into the character of asmodeous and would really apreate it if one of the devs could chime in.
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The following youtube clip might help your understanding of the general idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz-Yw0c7cF0
Beyond that, it is important to remember that each author's view on Asmodeous (or Satan, for that matter) is just that: Their view. It has no bearing on anyone else's view or actual reality (in the extremely unlikely scenario that one of them actually 'real'). Looking at brief description of the book you mention, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with Golarion and therefore is presumably a completely different 'interpretation' of the Asmodeous character.
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Also, Gross wrote 'Prince of Wolves' when Paizo was still publishing 3.5 material. The Pathfinder game wasn't even at the Playtest phase yet. It's easy to see how Paizo was just putting stuff together and perhaps not finalizing everything.
For me, well, I still use the illustration by Trampier in the '77 'Monster Manual' for Asmodeus and as an NPC or deity in my games he's how I view him from decade to decade, regardless of any publishing company's version. And he can and will roll that Bluff check better than any.
Of course, rolling a Bluff in an encounter is a whole different gambit than scribing a Contract with Profession: Sell Your Soul to the Devil Legally. I would argue that, though Asmodeus is laser perfect in telling the truth in Profession: Contract for Your Soul, he's just as mythically perfect at Bluff leading you to that Contract with lies.
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Officially, Asmodeus never lies. Everything he says is true. But A. truth is relative B. he's powerful enough to make the truth almost anything he wants and C. an infernal contract can be complex enough to be perfectly truthful but also able to screw people over in every sort of way they'd never expect.
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The thing Asmodeus won't do is "break a contract" beyond that, he has no problem with lying. He's not the god who is most "about" lying (that's Norgorber), he simply views lying as another tool he can use to gain power and control which are Asmodeus's big interests.
But because he is so much about contracts he's more about "misleading people" than he is about "saying something is A when it's actually B." So you should under no conditions trust Asmodeus, unless he puts pen to paper and then you should only trust him insofar as he can interpret the contractual language to his maximal benefit.
Also, Gross wrote 'Prince of Wolves' when Paizo was still publishing 3.5 material. The Pathfinder game wasn't even at the Playtest phase yet. It's easy to see how Paizo was just putting stuff together and perhaps not finalizing everything.
I had not considered this. I got excited by unfortunately this is not the case. Pathfinder RPG hit the shelves Aug 2009. The book I am quoting full tile is "Pathfinder Tales Prince of Wolves" which was the first novel of the product line and debuted at GenCon 2010.
I believe his would put it under the OGL and Gross may have been using the AD&D 3.5 version of Asmodeous. A quick search shows that the Forgotten Realms 3.5 version calls him the lord of lies.
For me I think my Asmodeous does not lie on principle similar to the character Lucifer in the TV show of the same name but with far less daddy issues. ;)
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For me, well, I still use the illustration by Trampier in the '77 'Monster Manual' for Asmodeus and as an NPC or deity in my games he's how I view him from decade to decade, regardless of any publishing company's version. And he can and will roll that Bluff check better than any.
Was that the black and white handsome devil with the goatee dressed in robes with a scepter?
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Although Asmodeus is clearly a Satan analogue, he doesn't actually bear the "Father of Lies" epithet. But if I was going to play him as a DM, his would be the "I have people to do that for me" style of swindler, who sticks to the letter of the law, and perhaps the spirit of the law when convenient. But the iron fist he rules the Hells with doesn't actually care about honesty or deceit, but about power - who has it, and who doesn't.
My favourite depictions of the Devil or Devil-like figures in pop culture are where he doesn't have to lie to get what he wants. His tradecraft is dramatic irony, giving exactly what they thought they wanted, playing into their vanities and lusts and desires, only for them to find they no longer want it, or have the capacity to enjoy it. Even by being someone who tries to dabble with diabolic forces, you have already swung the pendulum in his favour, and he may get your soul anyway. His henchmen, lesser devils and so forth, might wheel and deal, scheme and lie, but at the end of the day the Devil is the most honest creature outside of Heaven, who has never pretended to be other than what he is. If you get suckered, knowing the terms laid out, then frankly it's on you. He might lose a soul or two to a technicality, but he is happy to abide by the terms and play the long game because he knows that he'll win sooner or later, because while good is fragile and predictable, evil is eternal and lurks within the hearts of all men.
"What though the field be lost?
All is not lost; the unconquerable Will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to submit or yield:
And what is else not to be overcome?
That Glory never shall his wrath or might
Extort from me."
- John Milton, "Paradise Lost" Book 1
Very well said. Even better when I noticed the video links.
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"Pathfinder Tales Prince of Wolves" which was the first novel of the product line and debuted at GenCon 2010.
Oops!
I thought it was earlier. I know it was the first novel; I really thought the novels started coming out during CotCT or SD or thereabouts. I'm getting old..
For me I think my Asmodeous does not lie on principle similar to the character Lucifer in the TV show of the same name but with far less daddy issues. ;)
This is a really excellent way to do it. I'd happily play in that DM's group. .... I think it's a little harder in gaming where all the PCs know of the existence of deities etc. Whereas in the tv everyone from Linda to Ella believes it's all an act.
I guess a little CR 2 Imp could introduce himself to the 1st Level PCs as Asmodeus, The Asmodeus -- and the PCs are likely to believe it's just a lying little CR 2 Imp instead of, you know, CR 30 (or whatever) Asmodeus.
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But because he is so much about contracts he's more about "misleading people" than he is about "saying something is A when it's actually B."
Absolutely.
So you should under no conditions trust Asmodeus, unless he puts pen to paper and then you should only trust him insofar as he can interpret the contractual language to his maximal benefit.
If you're going to sign a contract with Asmodeus, better make sure you or your attorney have 20 skill ranks in Profession: Barrister before you sign anything because all that legalese is definitely there to mislead you into thinking said contract is not in Asmodeus' favor when it most certainly IS.
Just got a copy of Divine Mysteries. Again not a single mention of Asmodeous being the prince of lies. It states that Asmodeous will work with anyone as long as he feels they will uphold their side of the contract. His boon is to Diplomacy and his curse makes you follow the letter of the contract but not necessarily the spirit. Although Deception is still the divine skill the the most deceptive practice I saw is that all contracts are to favor the paying party. Just like any lawyer. It does state that particularly talented priests will add clauses that require both parties to tithe to the church or even forfeit their soul upon death. This really feels like corporate law to me.
Creative Director
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Asmodeus can, and often does, lie. Whether or not he sees it as a lie is up to him to justify. He's smarter than most of us, after all. But no, he's not really called the "Prince of Lies" in Pathifnder. That bit that popped up in Prince of Wolves is an editorial oversight, I guess—should have been "Prince of Darkness" in those cases, which is and has long been his nickname in Pathfinder.
The question was never if his followers lie, of course they do especially the incompetent type that has to manipulate their way to the top.
The question is, does Asmodeus, The Prince of Darkness, the Dark Prince, the First, the Lord of Darkness and Law, Ruler of the 9, Ruler of Hell...... lie?
Asmodeus can, and often does, lie. Whether or not he sees it as a lie is up to him to justify. He's smarter than most of us, after all. But no, he's not really called the "Prince of Lies" in Pathifnder. That bit that popped up in Prince of Wolves is an editorial oversight, I guess—should have been "Prince of Darkness" in those cases, which is and has long been his nickname in Pathfinder.
You snuck up on me! Thank you James. Not what I would have thought but I love the answer.
It appears so. I think I let the show Lucifer influence my thinking here. I kind of liked the idea that it was beneath him and if he had to lie to win he didn't really win did he? I concede that Asmodeous would not let anything get in the way of subjugation.
To add a bit to my previous reply, I think Asmodeus cares above all about power. If lying would make him appear like he's in a position of weakness, he'll be honest. If honesty would betray a weakness, he'll lie. But the outcome must (from his perspective) always benefit him in some way.
I think Asmodeus should be the greatest practitioner of the Xanatos Gambit in the Outer Planes - every outcome should benefit him in some way. If you sell him your soul, he wins. Even if you cheat him of the contract, by signing it in the first place you are tainted by the Hells, likely to be sent there by Pharasma's judgement, and he wins. If you escape him entirely by getting to Heaven, he'll wear down the universe itself in time and destroy you in the celestial war, which he expects to win. Even if he's defeated, he still has the key to Rovagug's cage that he can unlock whenever he wants, so even in death he still wins.
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It appears so. I think I let the show Lucifer influence my thinking here. I kind of liked the idea that it was beneath him and if he had to lie to win he didn't really win did he? I concede that Asmodeous would not let anything get in the way of subjugation.
There are older sources that portray Lucifer as truthful, yet utterly deceptive nonetheless because he's misleading you into thinking he's said things he hasn't. That's established enough that there's another layer saying that of course he encourages that kind of PR, but has no qualms about lying. And then there's the question of when would he need to lie? Seldom, so one might assume he's just as happy (or more likely prideful) not lying to show he doesn't need to.
One might argue that as an exemplar of law (once Law!), he wouldn't lie, except there's a problem there: he makes* the only laws he recognizes.I think I'd play him as too vain to lie to mortals except as a lark. Not that I'd expect mortals that interact with him to come out whole & sane even if alive. He has a multitude of level 20+ servants to handle anything involving such petty creatures anyway, and divine threats in his own realms (and beyond) more worthy of his time.
*or agrees too w/ other major deities, perhaps w/ a lie embedded, etc.
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It appears so. I think I let the show Lucifer influence my thinking here. I kind of liked the idea that it was beneath him and if he had to lie to win he didn't really win did he? I concede that Asmodeous would not let anything get in the way of subjugation.There are older sources that portray Lucifer as truthful, yet utterly deceptive nonetheless because he's misleading you into thinking he's said things he hasn't. That's established enough that there's another layer saying that of course he encourages that kind of PR, but has no qualms about lying. And then there's the question of when would he need to lie? Seldom, so one might assume he's just as happy (or more likely prideful) not lying to show he doesn't need to.
One might argue that as an exemplar of law (once Law!), he wouldn't lie, except there's a problem there: he makes* the only laws he recognizes.I think I'd play him as too vain to lie to mortals except as a lark. Not that I'd expect mortals that interact with him to come out whole & sane even if alive. He has a multitude of level 20+ servants to handle anything involving such petty creatures anyway, and divine threats in his own realms (and beyond) more worthy of his time.
*or agrees too w/ other major deities, perhaps w/ a lie embedded, etc.
I think Asmodeus, as indeed an exemplar of Law and the greatest tyrant in all of reality, spends a very long time designing the laws so that he never needs to break them.
He very likely never set a law that would stop him from a given course of actions. So, yes he will lie as needed.
He is also extremely likely to let people believe he never lies and follows this as much as he can so that it gives him an advantage.
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Almost certainly, the hard part is knowing which parts are lies and which parts are truth. And also which parts are complicated legal style jargon designed to intentionally confuse you and get Asmodeus the result he wants.
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Almost certainly, the hard part is knowing which parts are lies and which parts are truth. And also which parts are complicated legal style jargon designed to intentionally confuse you and get Asmodeus the result he wants.
Or paradoxes & nonsense so entangled in his beautiful rhetoric it's near impossible to unwind how and why his words carry no meaning. His words sow doubt in the listeners who assume he speaks in good faith, that they must have failed to comprehend what Asmodeus meant, when all Asmodeus meant to do was gaslight with gobblygook then follow it up with accusation, shame, faux bewilderment, or whatever else pulls the listeners' strings, pushes their buttons.
Quite hard to roleplay I'd say. It's one thing to add retroactive causality to bestow godlike intellect on an NPC, but there's too much lingual mastery here to adlib (or maybe email). I suppose one can summarize it rather than attempt such divine prose and oratory bent into a maze of meanings.
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Absolutely.
Whenever I've had to roleplay incredibly smart characters, or characters well gifted at lying or manipulation I have to remind my players, I am not such a person. I am not gifted at coming up with those sorts of things.
I will summarize what you generally took away from the statements, but will not try to generate them myself.
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I think one trick for running Asmodeus as a GM is that sometimes he is entirely fair and honest, because he is dealing from a position of strength. He's not always trying to get one over on everyone he deals with, because he already thinks he's better than them. If you anger him, obviously that's a bad idea but angering nicer gods is also a bad idea.
Plus, the fact that sometimes he's a straight shooter means he's much better at bamboozling people when he wants to. The fact that not who deals with Asmodeus eventually realizes "well, that was a mistake" makes it easier for him to deal with the people he really wants to ensnare.
But players will truly believe they can trust the word of Asmodeus, even when they very much can.
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I think one trick for running Asmodeus as a GM is that sometimes he is entirely fair and honest, because he is dealing from a position of strength. He's not always trying to get one over on everyone he deals with
I think that I'd slightly alter that. Sometimes he is only trying to get a little bit over on you and what he gets is often not important but he ALWAYS wants to get a little bit over you, he ALWAYS wants the contract to slightly favour himself, etc. At least partly for his own amusement, at least partly to keep his reputation.
So, for example, you make a deal and everything is exactly what it appears to be on the surface EXCEPT that you are going to get a fairly bad flu 2 weeks next Thursday.
The trick is being happy with that :-)
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I'd likely change that to "everything he wants, he gets" which with his long-term, chess-master thinking might include most any angle the GM wishes to take, what with Asmodeus wanting to maintain his reputation for future negotiations w/ others if not you. And by chess master, I don't mean master of the game in front of him, but also master all the games to come with all the witnesses to that game.
"He's a ... guy," one might think because getting you to think that is exactly what he intended with is previous choices, all to put you in a position he wants you for who know what next end.
I imagine he's the kind of villain the GM must have fail forward, where no matter the outcome for PCs, Asmodeus profits. "Didn't want that Pit Fiend (who had been working on his behalf) around anymore anyway with its rebellious schemes. Thank you, bugs (PCs)."
"You set me up!" cry his allies while they fall. And so on
But players will never truly believe they can trust the word of Asmodeus, even when they very much can.
Missing a very important never in the earlier post, in bold above.
A good way to get players to question whether fire is hot or gravity makes things fall down is to give them accurate information from an antagonist who is perceived to be untrustworthy, duplicitous, and scheming.
Does Asmodeus lie?
Is the space pope reptilian?
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But players will never truly believe they can trust the word of Asmodeus, even when they very much can.Missing a very important never in the earlier post, in bold above.
A good way to get players to question whether fire is hot or gravity makes things fall down is to give them accurate information from an antagonist who is perceived to be untrustworthy, duplicitous, and scheming.
Bad examples since fire isn't hot (it depends upon heat) and gravity doesn't make things fall down (mass-energy curves spacetime and things accelerate in a straight line with respect to their own reference frames).
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Bad examples since fire isn't hot (it depends upon heat) and gravity doesn't make things fall down (mass-energy curves spacetime and things accelerate in a straight line with respect to their own reference frames).But players will never truly believe they can trust the word of Asmodeus, even when they very much can.Missing a very important never in the earlier post, in bold above.
A good way to get players to question whether fire is hot or gravity makes things fall down is to give them accurate information from an antagonist who is perceived to be untrustworthy, duplicitous, and scheming.
Those are exactly the kinds of arguments Asmodeus would make that fall into "technically correct but incredibly misleading and confusing".
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Thank you for the reminder, Hermes Conrad, Bureaucrat Grade 34.
In my campaign, Asmodeus never lies. Ever. He is physically incapable of doing so.
But people would rather believe pleasant lies than an ugly truth.
His staff, however, who look more and more like him as they gain power and prestige, have no problem doing so.
Misunderstandings and assumptions can and do happen.
Do you know what profession has a LOT of Asmodeous worshipers?
Evil Lawyers.
Do Lawyers ever lie? The smart ones never get caught lying, but that doesn't mean they don't lie.
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I would say a good (and I'm not talking holy or unholy) lawyer doesn't ever lie, but knowing when to not tell the full truth, what details to withhold, which details to focus on to hammer home a point while ignoring ones that don't support you, etc are all things that are lying adjacent without being lies.
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Do you know what profession has a LOT of Asmodeous worshipers?
Evil Lawyers.
Do Lawyers ever lie? The smart ones never get caught lying, but that doesn't mean they don't lie.
I once had an AI chat bot tell me a story for fun. I asked it to tell me a story about two priests having a drink in a bar after work in Absolom. Both men were Barristers, one of Asmodious, the other Abadar. The Priest of Asmodious was a high price defense lawyer while the Abadar priest was a Public Defender. Add to this Investigators, Inquisitors, and Hell Knights you get a fun and interesting legal system.