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Ah, right. It's the Paizo boards.
"Never quote anyone"
I had forgotten.
An unfortunate side effect of sensitive topics.
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Prosthetics actually came up in my game as a plot point since the cleric got her arm blown up (critted with a disintegrate bolt and dropped to 0 hp; in my game, resurrection doesn't exist, so I tend to make death effect less "instant death" and more "will inconvenience you in a significant manner for a while"), and can't regrow a new one from scratch; so having the option for a prosthetic in the book is really cool
Many of my characters love crafting and customize themselves with small technological doodads and would actually prefer to have hearing aids they can make look flashy and unique as a way to show off their skills. One of summoners in the pf 1e days lost a lot of her hearing, one of her arms, and her wings in a magical mishap and she used her eidolon to rebuild prosthetics and aids because her ability to craft the gear herself was actually used as a means of advertising her skill. As a player, I much prefer getting my character a prosthetic or a hearing aid or whatever to account for injuries rather than magicing away the problem
I'm actually pretty upset that my post was deleted. That really makes me feel like my voice doesn't matter on this issue which effects me pretty directly. My comments were aimed at game systems, not groups or tables, so I'm really confused why it was taken down.
Quite possibly simply because you quoted something that was deleted.
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I find the wheelchairs and the support companions to be enticing for any character.
Earlier someone mentioned making accommodations for strength 7 wizard.
In other systems I might have a gaggle of skeletons to crowdsurf me over obstacles.
In pf2e Support Companions make perfect sense in this role.
I guess the question of appropriation comes up.
My character might not "need" a Rootball Companion, but they certainly want one.
The arms and other limbs also offer power not easily found elsewhere.
I need to look and see if one can have more limbs than your ancestry indicates.
I suspect not.
I,ve always wanted to add limbs, rather than replace existing limbs, but the power creep implication are obvious.
The implications of these "technologies" are vast, but they are not likely to be explored, and that's fine.
I honestly find some of the combination weapons more troubling in terms of breaking my immersion, but I simply choose to not use them.
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Players will always find a way to take whatever it is that their characters have, and turn it into a strength.
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And if that becomes a problem, then that is a "problem player" problem.
The appropriate response for a problem player is to talk to that player or eject them from the game. Not to encode things in the formal rules that penalize characters and cause inclusion problems for everyone else when they are just trying to make a flavor choice.
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About representation, specifically neural diversity, I think show, don't tell makes the best sense.
My family has not a single "neuro-typical" person in it, but long before our individual mental idiosyncrasies were diagnosed and labeled, we knew our own when we saw them.
For a lot of autistic people,the character Bones echos their own lived experiences.
Before that, Spock and Data were also relatable to many on the spectrum.
Right now my kid and I are invested deeply in the characters of the Owlhouse, who embody a huge swath of representation, while being swept up in a story that is both bigger than them and not...
I don't think any of them are assigned any labels but they are diverse, heroic and relatable.
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An important thing about appropriation is that, as far as my personal experience, the disabled community far and away want their tools to be appropriated and spread as far as possible. Many support tools are not limited in who they can benefit, while others get better the more widely adopted they are (key example - sign language).
There are plenty of other problem areas, but I suspect most of the time abled people benefiting from supports to help people function in society isn't one of those places. The thing to remember is that we are all future members of the disabled community--if we're lucky enough to live that long. Most people haven't gotten there, yet.
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Pedantic nitpick:
Sonic effects have nothing to do with whether the target can hear them or not. Sonic and Auditory effects are supposed to be different things, though I notice there are a small handful of effects which have both tags.
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Players will always find a way to take whatever it is that their characters have, and turn it into a strength.
I'd quit playing with people who played like that, rather than claim it's some kind of issue with disability inclusion as a concept. My Beam Saber campaign had one PC missing both legs, and another down an arm, both replaced with prosthetics; neither ever once tried to use it for some rules lawyer-y shenanigans.
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And if that becomes a problem, then that is a "problem player" problem.
Is that indicative of a problem player though? Both of those are things that I would expect to work and that I would see as being a clever move from a clever player. Why wouldn't a prosthetic arm be useful for reaching into a vat of acid?
Sonic damage immunity is more iffy. Sonic damage is going to work by sending shockwaves through your body just as much as assaulting your ear drums. I'd probably allow resistance, but not immunity.
For any player I have ever GMed for, and when I am being a player myself, to come up with a clever and unexpected way to utilize something that they have or can do is expected, praised, and makes them feel proud of themselves. And I think it's wrong to try and shut that down just because it makes a specific puzzle, task, or enemy easier to fight.
Don't forget that such things also inherently come with costs associated with them. The acid is going to damage that prosthetic. The person who is taking out their hearing aids to reduce the sonic damage is going to be functionally deaf until they put them back in.
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If it is a problem, then it is a player problem - not a rules problem.
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I would strongly suggest that everyone watch this LegalKimchi video on representation and whether or not it matters.
I love his videos. My favorite line from him so far is, "Studded leather, Korea, have you betrayed me as well." or "Why aren't there more motorcycle gangs wearing gambeson."
I like that he can address social issues and historical accuracy at the same time.
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Pedantic nitpick:
Sonic effects have nothing to do with whether the target can hear them or not. Sonic and Auditory effects are supposed to be different things, though I notice there are a small handful of effects which have both tags.
I knew that. I initially wrote Sonic, looked up the traits, swapped in Auditory, but then forgot to remove Sonic.
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Don't be silly. You very well know they are.
Thank you RD and well said.
Enforcing a flaw in a character is apparently now the equivalent of disallowing both at a table. I have not had the first at my table though only one person in a wheelchair, I asked if they wanted their character to also use one in game and they okayed someone who could move without one. I even asked twice to be sure.
Their response was that they have to be on a wheelchair 24/7 all year around. They had zero interest in being in one in my game session. What was I going to say no to their request. I asked twice tried to accommodate the player and they chose otherwise.
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Your actions hint otherwise.
Demanding someone take penalties to “equalize” an “unfair advantage” you concocted is ridiculous. You act like someone with a prosthetic gains super strength from it and can fire LAZER beams. All those poor LAZER-less able bodied characters.
“ I asked if they wanted their character to also use one in game and they okayed someone who could move without one. I even asked twice to be sure.”
… why are you badgering a PLAYER in a wheelchair into playing a character that uses one? This isn’t making you look good, do you also ask players who aren’t white if they want to play a matching ethnicity?
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Considering real people with hearing aids will switch them off to avoid hearing unpleasant sounds (or just when someone's being annoying) I don't see why a player character with hearing aids shouldn't switch them off to avoid an auditory effect. That just seems like a sensible in character decision - from the other way around, why would someone with the ability to just turn off most sounds for themselves opt to listen to someone trying to hypnotize them?
Would you kindly point out the rule that lets PCs turn off their hearing aid as a Reaction to avoid an Auditory effect?
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Considering real people with hearing aids will switch them off to avoid hearing unpleasant sounds (or just when someone's being annoying) I don't see why a player character with hearing aids shouldn't switch them off to avoid an auditory effect. That just seems like a sensible in character decision - from the other way around, why would someone with the ability to just turn off most sounds for themselves opt to listen to someone trying to hypnotize them?Would you kindly point out the rule that lets PCs turn off their hearing aid as a Reaction to avoid an Auditory effect?
probably the same action as an abled person to apply earplugs to themselves.
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Interestingly enough, a person who uses hearing aids is likely not totally deaf. It seems like turning off one's hearing aid is approximately equivalent to applying earplugs in more ways than just one! Only difference is whether you are removing or applying a device to your ear.
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Never thought about using an Infernal contract to pay for an hearing aid though that seems more like the road to hell is paved with good intentions or something similar. The devil either giving away the device or offering money to pay for it, is going to ask for an evil act to be performed.
The device is given and as long as the poor soil does what they are told it works. If not suddenly when using it they hear the screams of the damned 24/7 or the devil talking in their ear 24/7.
I’m getting the feeling that if I ran say a superhero campaign and someone wants to play Green Arrow or Batman and other players wanted to play Superman, Wonder Woman or the Flash. That because the first two characters are going to be overshadowed by the other three and I refuse to give them some special advantage that I’m being unfair or don’t want people having fun.
So both players running the first two should have Superman Strength, Wonder Woman flight and Flash Super speed on top of their existing posts as well. With that somehow not being unfair to the rest of the group. Let’s be honest both characters in comics are given huge amounts of plot armor to survive in their respective comic universe. If I enforce that they cannot do exactly the same thing as the Flash lm somehow penalizing them.
I guess there is no winning and a DM has apparently no say in how their own game world works.
Not to play Devil's Advocate, but that's something I would have done, exactly because acid wouldn't hurt me. Yes, I would lose the prosthetic and it may take a long time to get it back, but that's still a viable plan.
Not immune to sonic-based attacks, but anything requiring the target to actually hear can be bypassed.
I mean, that's how Odysseus saved his crew from sirens when he asked them to plug their ears.
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As for RD suggestion about having an indestructible item such as plot device in a pool of acid and those asking why. It makes perfect sense.
We are not playing Costco the fantasy rpg where all it takes is for the heroes to be directed to the magic artifact aisle.
If the item is protected say by a Green Dragon that is exactly what an intelligent NPC or creature would do especially an evil one. In my game the Prosthetic arm is destroyed it severely damaged. With it needing to be replaced or severely damaged.
It’s the risk an adventurer takes and it’s something I advise any player who wants to use such an item in game. Same thing with a wheelchair. If the party uses major roads no problem. If they enter an area or mini map with terrain that would hinder movement for someone without a wheelchair it’s also going to hinder someone in one.
Same thing with enemies and strongholds. Most bipedal creatures may have a few ramps to carry heavy items or winch and pulley. Something like a Beholder makes its own tunnels. It may make an occasional ramp or handholds for its allies. Most won’t care. As they can do the equivalent of the Horta from Star Trek. Same thing with a creature like a Naga or similar. They don’t need ramps or stairs so why give adventurers an extra advantage.
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And if you close your eyes, you are immune to visual effects. It's not a big deal to let people play characters that reflect reality.
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As for RD suggestion about having an indestructible item such as plot device in a pool of acid and those asking why. It makes perfect sense.
We are not playing Costco the fantasy rpg where all it takes is for the heroes to be directed to the magic artifact aisle.
If the item is protected say by a Green Dragon that is exactly what an intelligent NPC or creature would do especially an evil one. In my game the Prosthetic arm is destroyed it severely damaged. With it needing to be replaced or severely damaged.
It’s the risk an adventurer takes and it’s something I advise any player who wants to use such an item in game. Same thing with a wheelchair. If the party uses major roads no problem. If they enter an area or mini map with terrain that would hinder movement for someone without a wheelchair it’s also going to hinder someone in one.
Same thing with enemies and strongholds. Most bipedal creatures may have a few ramps to carry heavy items or winch and pulley. Something like a Beholder makes its own tunnels. It may make an occasional ramp or handholds for its allies. Most won’t care. As they can do the equivalent of the Horta from Star Trek. Same thing with a creature like a Naga or similar. They don’t need ramps or stairs so why give adventurers an extra advantage.
Why are you all tunnel visioning on “the person with the prosthetic had to stick their hand into the pool of acid to advance the plot” as some air tight gotcha?
Why is that the only way to retrieve the item? Are your players bad? Or have you as the GM cut off every other avenue for this ridiculously hypothetical to justify itself?
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I would allow the chair though. Increase the price to 30- 50 gp. An item that allows almost no penalty of movement on any type of terrain. Is too cheap of an item at 5 gp. Unless I read the entry incorrectly. It’s also subject to being destroyed by any attacks such as intense heat from a Red Dragon Breath for example.
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I would allow the chair though. Increase the price to 30- 50 gp. An item that allows almost no penalty of movement on any type of terrain. Is too cheap of an item at 5 gp. Unless I read the entry incorrectly. It’s also subject to being destroyed by any attacks such as intense heat from a Red Dragon Breath for example.
and again, why?
Why do you need to penalize people in a wheelchair? Why?
What advantage are you offsetting that you are forcing this to be a thing? Why is going up stairs breaking your campaign and combats?
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We don't have a lot of conversations like this one in Starfinder. The settings, lore, and tech allow for almost everything to just fit in. The gap conveniently erases connections to human history and, old D&D tropes and their baggage. If you want to modify your self Starfinder has six categories of how to do that: Biotech | Cybernetics | Magitech | Necrografts | Personal Upgrades | Species Grafts. If you can't buy something off the self, every party likely has multiple members with the skills to build all most any accessibility device at level 1. If you're not sure why someone would choose not choose to address a perceived issue, any shirren is happy to explain the importance and joy of choice. They might even get sidetracked and tell you all the choices on how to talk about choices. Starfinder has naturally accruing species that are deaf, blind, or limbless. One of the few representations of accessibility missing in Starfinder is the three-action economy some PF2e players demand.
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In any case, many of the in-game assistive devices ARE equivalent to superpowers. Take the aquatic wheelchairs for example.
The higher level ones are... But none of us advocating for assistive devices are saying that those should be given out at character creation.
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So both players running the first two should have Superman Strength, Wonder Woman flight and Flash Super speed on top of their existing posts as well. With that somehow not being unfair to the rest of the group. Let’s be honest both characters in comics are given huge amounts of plot armor to survive in their respective comic universe. If I enforce that they cannot do exactly the same thing as the Flash lm somehow penalizing them.
I guess there is no winning and a DM has apparently no say in how their own game world works.
False equivalency fallacy. You’re actually comparing level 5 characters with level 20 in Pathfinder terms, and no, it’s obvious those characters should not be adventuring together to any GM who bothered to read the game manual.
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Let's see if I can break this out into a set of lists - hopefully I can finish it before this thread gets locked.
Things that are definitely not a problem
The existence of Hearing Aids
The existence of Sign Language
The existence of Prosthetics
The existence of wheelchairs
The existence of players who want their characters to need any of the above
Things that are probably not a problem unless there is something else combined with it
A player wanting to play a deaf character who uses Sign Language to communicate.
A player wanting to play a character who is missing a hand and wants the penalty of only having one hand to wield weapons and hold items with.
A player wanting to play a character who is missing a hand and uses a prosthetic in order to avoid the penalty of only having one hand to wield weapons and hold items with.
Things that probably are problems - but not with the rules
A player wanting to play a deaf character and insisting that the other characters spend a feat on Sign Language so that they can communicate with them.
A player wanting to play a character who is missing a hand and insists on getting a high level prosthetic item for free at character creation.
A player wanting to play a character who is missing a hand and the GM insists that they are not allowed to use a prosthetic to avoid the penalties of only having one hand to wield weapons or hold items with.
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In any case, many of the in-game assistive devices ARE equivalent to superpowers. Take the aquatic wheelchairs for example.
Okay, let’s run with that.
Assistive devices are to help you do something you can’t normally I think we all agree. A regular human does pretty weak, nonlethal unarmed attacks, but many races naturally have lethal unarmed attacks so something enabling a human to make lethal attacks would be… assisting them. Imagine if it even let them use extra traits, or do different types of damage!
So, now that we all agree weapons are assistive devices, how should we limit humans and similar races since they get these superpowers basically for free?
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Players will always find a way to take whatever it is that their characters have, and turn it into a strength.
RAW; this doesn't work, but if you're okay with letting niche little things like this work (as I am) it cuts both ways:
The oozes acid can damage the arm, too. Disarm might be able to take it off, a rust monster might destory it
Meanwhile, a hearing aid might be stolen, overloads on a crit failed save vs an auditory effect; etc. Also hearing aids only help those with some hearing left, so turning it off would maybe only provide a +2 or so.
Since pf doesn't give you anything for having a disability, these downsides should come up about as often as the player is able to do some cool stuff; like fishing out a gem from an acid pool with their prosthetic arm or turning off their hearing aid vs the sirens (although in both of these circumstances, you can do both without the assistive items; you can mage hand or even just use a pole to get the gem, and you can stuff wax or cotton in your ears to help block out the sound; so maybe don't assume people who want to play with disabilities are looking to fish for niche benefits)
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A thread where you and others are trying to dehumanize others was never civil to begin with. You don’t brownie good boy points for your faux-politeness, you’re one of the worst people on these forums.
You're projecting. Nobody here is doing that.
And if you close your eyes, you are immune to visual effects. It's not a big deal to let people play characters that reflect reality.
So then what's wrong with having a handicap reflect reality? Seems like something of a double standard to me.
As a person with a disability myself, I am under no illusion that it has held me back or kept me from plenty of opportunities. Now, for the sake of ease of play and allowing players more options, I'm totally cool with assistive devices in the game allowing people to perform as though they had no handicap at all, but if someone doesn't want to play their game that way, I see absolutely no reason why they should be crucified for it.
Those of you who see a need to attack others for a mere difference in pay style need to get off your high horses.
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@Alechical Genius
I would probably handle it the same way in your examples. All any and all items to overcome a character flaws though at the same time they are not indestructible or protected by plot armour. Obviously different GMs may handle such items differently.