What is the best way to make "the best swordsman in the world" in Pathfinder 2nd Edition?
Be a fighter who specs for swords, I expect. Fighter is the best class for specializing in a single weapon type.
Edit: OK, you'll maybe want Aldori Sword Duelist or some other archetype, but that's basically flavor.
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I think first of all we need to ask ourselves "what ...is... Best ?"
As was established before in Mongol warrior v Conan, what is best is to:
1 crush your ennemies
2 see them driven before you
3 hear the lamentation of their women.
Now while the fighter DOES possess the ability to both crush their ennemies and see them driven before themselves, they do lack the ability to reliably make sure they hear the lamentation of their women.
Barbarian has the ability to demoralize as an ape, therefore I would say that the best swordsman is a barbarian.
Fighters have got higher perception than barbarians though, so they'd be more likely to hear the lamentations than barbarians would.
Though with that thinking a Rogue w/ the utmost Perception might be best with "You're Next!" to Intimidate the woman right after slaying their man.
Also can get the feat other ways too, but can't catch up to that pure savoriness of full Perception. And one can humiliate your opponent w/ Debilitating Strikes, and more.Then again, the Bard could write an excellent lamentation for the women beforehand.
"Why would I be needing this?"
"You'll see."
And the Bard could replay it through illusory spells to hear it anew.
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But yeah, it really depends on what one means by swordsman, like for duels, war, monster-slaying, performance/showing off, etc. Does it include using them defensively, w/ utility, or is DPR king here? And does the ability to switch to variant swords matter?
Since the general rule of thumb is that if picking one weapon group that Fighters can't be beat, a "best swordsman" build would begin there with perhaps archetypes added to pick up any snazzy flair.
Then again, a 20th level NPC swordsman wouldn't have to rely on gear as much as a 20th level PC one, yet would get the same end results. So they'd be the best. :-P
"Best swordsman" seems like a loaded term. Why swords in particular? Could someone be the best warrior/have the highest DPS, but be a bad swordsman? What metric are we using here?
I think I am still going to go for fighter though. Their feats seem like they have a lot of feats that could be considered sword techniques (as compared to just breathing fire and the like as a barbarian).
To me the term "best swordsman" has to be a specialist in that weapon.
I'd build it as a Fighter, with a bastard sword and fight one handed. Then take some swashbuckler feats for the style factor.
Snagging Strike
Dueling Parry
Swashbuckler's Riposte
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Goblin Thief Rogue with Magus and Cleric/Champion Dedication using an Aldori Dueling Sword.
Make a Fire Ray Spellstrike against a Flat-Footed enemy and you deal at level 20:
4d8 (Weapon dice) + 3d6 (Elemental Runes) + 7 (Dex) + 6 (Greater Weapon Specialization) + 20d6 (Fire Ray) + 8d6 (double Sneak Attack thanks to Magical Trickster) + 2d6 (Precise Debilitation) + 5 (Burn It!) = 151.5 average damage, 303 average damage and 10d4+1 persistent Fire on a critical hit.
Beat it!
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the moment you accept a sword fight, and your opponent blasts you with spells and sneak attacksGoblin Thief Rogue with Magus and Cleric/Champion Dedication using an Aldori Dueling Sword.
Make a Fire Ray Spellstrike against a Flat-Footed enemy and you deal at level 20:
4d8 (Weapon dice) + 3d6 (Elemental Runes) + 7 (Dex) + 6 (Greater Weapon Specialization) + 20d6 (Fire Ray) + 8d6 (double Sneak Attack thanks to Magical Trickster) + 2d6 (Precise Debilitation) + 5 (Burn It!) = 151.5 average damage, 303 average damage and 10d4+1 persistent Fire on a critical hit.Beat it!
Definitely!
But Ravingdork didn't say what "the best swordman" means, so I came with the highest damage single attack one!
What is the best way to make "the best swordsman in the world" in Pathfinder 2nd Edition?
Be a GM and create a custom NPC with that title and requisite abilities.
As a player, my guess would be to play a fighter, claim the title, and fight until no-one contests it anymore.
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What is the best way to make "the best swordsman in the world" in Pathfinder 2nd Edition?Be a GM and create a custom NPC with that title and requisite abilities.
As a player, my guess would be to play a fighter, claim the title, and fight until no-one contests it anymore.
"And what is your name, noble challenger?"
"Cayden, a pleasure to meet you.""Oh, your parents named you after the god?"
"Not exactly..."
"Crap."
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What is the best way to make "the best swordsman in the world" in Pathfinder 2nd Edition?Be a GM and create a custom NPC with that title and requisite abilities.
As a player, my guess would be to play a fighter, claim the title, and fight until no-one contests it anymore.
"And what is your name, noble challenger?"
"Cayden, a pleasure to meet you."
"Oh, your parents named you after the god?"
"Not exactly..."
"Crap."
Not sure Cayden Cailean qualifies as "in the world" though ;-)
Here's your smurfing qualifications:
- Must be an expert in the cut, slash, and stab.
- Must have no mortal equal in the above.
But different classes have different ways of going about it.
Fighters just hit, even if they don't (see Certain Strike). So they are best at constantly dealing damage.
Barbarians just hit hardest, if they hit. So they are best at doing most damage in a single strike.
Rogues are best at messing up their opponents, so they are best at dragging their foes down.
Swashbucklers are best at at messing with their opponents, mercilessly punishing their errors (ripostes).
Heck, even Monks can do impressive things if built for sword fighting.
So yeah, define 'Best Swordsman'. Because PVP arena fights helps little to determine who is best in actual PVE.
The best swordsman is the one that wins you the smurfing game.
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Someone a few levels higher than you who's just got higher numbers just because of those levels.
Well that's the problem with "the best" concepts in a level based game engine.
Another option: bard with lots of Deception and rumor-seeding abilities. Just convince everyone you're the best swordsman.
More seriously: probably fighter, but don't obsess about having the highest to-hit. Instead, go for lots of "weapon trick" feats that work with swords, allowing you to take on a far wider array of problems with swords than most other characters can.
Make a character that challenge other swordsman and take the swords, then pick Duelist for quick draw (and Duelist challenge for the flavor if you wish) as you want to use the stolen swords, use doubling rings with a gauntlet and give each sword a different talisman/spellheart so each one have an unique property outside of the traits.
I'm feeling like in terms of overall best, it's going to be hard to beat the Fighter, the Champion, and the Monk since they just have numerical advantages other classes can't meet. Since "hits more than they do" and "gets hit less than they do" are the two most important things in a swordfight.
I'm feeling like in terms of overall best, it's going to be hard to beat the Fighter, the Champion, and the Monk since they just have numerical advantages other classes can't meet. Since "hits more than they do" and "gets hit less than they do" are the two most important things in a swordfight.
Oh my smurf, the the solution is SO simple. We just need to do both!
Make a character that challenge other swordsman and take the swords, then pick Duelist for quick draw (and Duelist challenge for the flavor if you wish) as you want to use the stolen swords, use doubling rings with a gauntlet and give each sword a different talisman/spellheart so each one have an unique property outside of the traits.
That actually brings up a problem with the question- disarm builds. In a realistic scenario, you could logically try to find out the strongest swordsman by having a duels and tournaments.
But then almost everyone involved would be relatively vulnerable to disarm builds. It makes sense- no one can be a stronger swordsman than you if they can't keep ahold of their swords.
Now, disarm builds are nice, but many campaigns might not give them much room to shine if the focus is on spell casters and beasts with tooth and claw.
One thing that gives the Monk the edge, in addition to the incredible mobility and action economy the Monk gets (while being 1AC down to the heavy armor champion) the Monk can get reach with a regular degular temple sword at level 18 and can start playing reach games.
Also disarm is terrible.
Indeed, disarming twist is fairly good if you're gonna disarm people.
You can even disarm Xulgaths! But there's really no rule for dismemberment in game...
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Pretty handy ( since, afaik, you can't pick up stuff in the enemy square).
There's nothing preventing it. Picking up an item is an Interact action and as such you can do it in every square in your reach. The only thing is that you provoke an AoO, but that's all.
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Pretty handy ( since, afaik, you can't pick up stuff in the enemy square).There's nothing preventing it. Picking up an item is an Interact action and as such you can do it in every square in your reach. The only thing is that you provoke an AoO, but that's all.I swear I thought there was a rule to prevent a character from stealing the dropped weapon.
IIt's definitely the "how to easily tpk any group" 2.0, given the huge athletics bonus the enemies have ( combined with the low dex the majority of melee combatants has).
First, you need a critical success, so even with a high Athletics against a low Reflex your chances of failure are high. Second, on a critical failure you end up Flat-Footed, so there's a real risk. And third: if you face a low Reflex character with a high Athletics opponent, using Disarm is just not funny at all. Just use Trip. The effect is less punishing, but it's ten times easier to succeed and it's still a pain to the character.
The first one is not an issue, since all melee enemies have athletics, and 99% of melee combatants have low ref ( and a full plate ).
I highly disagree. First, you need a critical success, so disarming a Paladin is as hard as tripping a Rogue.
Then, you have tons of average Reflex characters with heavy armor. Mighty Bullwark gives you +4, Fighters go to Master Reflex. I have a Ranger in Full Plate, she has 10 Dex but will still end up Legendary. I have a Champion in Splint Mail, but she's Dex based, despite having 18 Str, too. In the same party, there's a Splint Mail Fighter with 16 Dex.There aren't that many characters with ridiculous Reflex saves, and even knowing what a Full Plate is (which is limited to humanoids and monsters with Society) you won't be sure that your opponent has low Reflex saves.
I remember in PF1 when some players would invest over half their wealth into one weapon. I'd ask them what they'd do if they lost that weapon and they'd either not register that as a possibility or stare at me in horror. Except it was a possibility that, yes, would instantly take the PC out of the battle. And it wasn't just disarm since many acidic or sticky creatures could do similar things.
I had one PFS battle where players scoured their sheets for spare weapons when they realized the acid covering their enemies ignored hardness and PCs couldn't risk their main one so early in an adventure. It was a martial-heavy party and only a few could participate in battle. Doh. Not that I'm a fan of destroying weapons (and those unique monsters were a bit overkill IMO), but I think it's fair game for an enemy to use their best tactics which should include the option of stealing weapons, maybe even with minions Delaying to pick them up. Though as HumbleGamer noted, there are at least two camps of tables with some wanting grit and some wanting glamor. PFS2 embraces glamor, yet the PF2 APs seem to lean toward grit.
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That said I think a "best swordsman in the world" shouldn't be determined by who carries the best sword.
"Let's see if you're any good without the god-sword, eh?"
And yeah, if you're a 10 Dex Champion, maybe you shouldn't have a chance of winning the title if at-level enemies can consistently score a Disarm crit vs. your Reflex save, and perhaps pick up that beautiful sword of yours.
The fun solution to the disarm problem is to take off a gauntlet, attach it to a weapon with soverign glue, and draw the gauntlet(and therefore the attached weapon) when combat starts. Try all they like, a dc50 check to break the glue is something that won't be successful for quite a while.
The boring way is to just take soulforger or play with ABP.
Of course, that's only an issue if your gm uses disarm. Many recognize that the game math goes to hell if you deprive the martial of their weapon and ignore the option entirely.
I'm not sure you're addressing what I wrote, HumbleGamer, since you're talking about PF1, which wasn't part of my words you quote. And you're talking about balance, which is a different paradigm by which to gauge games, but not "the opposite" of anything I wrote.
Unless you're saying I'm reading your earlier "likes a challenge" incorrectly, which seemed to me more connected to difficulty levels than internal game balance. I've run tables that have embraced the imbalance of PF1, yet appreciated me ramping up the published enemies to match, or at least withstand somewhat and/or threaten.
I'd say they wanted grit, while many liked the PF1 imbalance for the glory (which might be a better term than glamor). I don't see how PF2's excellent balance effects which whether a table targets "grit", "glory", or even "grim" for Ravenloft/Dark Sun fans. Each is more easily measured because of the balance, but I don't think PF2 itself has a preferred setting. That said, the APs IMO seem like grit while PF2 seems like glory, so Paizo has its preferences of what to do with their system.
Which all ties back to how in a challenging campaign, Disarm should be exploited when its in the enemies' best interests, though like every tactic, it's best to have a spectrum of threats rather than a few.
So yeah, Sentinel looks pretty good even for full-plate warriors since that +4 to all Reflex patches up a notable hole.
That said I think a "best swordsman in the world" shouldn't be determined by who carries the best sword.
Then PF2 might not be the game for you. High level martials are designed to be almost helpless without their weapons against anything threatening. It's a cornerstone of the system.
Then PF2 might not be the game for you. High level martials are designed to be almost helpless without their weapons against anything threatening. It's a cornerstone of the system.
That said I think a "best swordsman in the world" shouldn't be determined by who carries the best sword.
Bit of a woosh here it seems.
If coming from a mechanical PC-building POV, I agree, like if trying to build "the best swordsman PC possible", but that's not what the OP asked for. Same might be true in an RPing sense if fighting to the death determined who's greatest (like in many anime); nobody's going to shun the opportunity to use their best resources (which would include lots of other magic gear too). But if wanting to know who has the best form, precision, style, and whatnot, as in which person (or creature) actually had the most personal skill with swords, then having access to a superior sword shouldn't count as some innate quality of the swordsman.
This is why much earlier I pointed out that an NPC would most likely win the title because they contend at-level w/ a worse weapon (typically) than a PC of the same level. Yet their attack, damage, etc. is comparable. So if given equal swords as the same level PC (or vice versa), the NPC's obviously the better swordsman. (If an NPC swordsman even exists at high enough levels that is!)
APB naturally turns this all on its head.
Strongly considering adding a method to voluntarily gain ABP in-world. Forsaking magical enhancements to rely purely on your own skill, without forcing everyone else to do the same.
hmm, things get a little weird because there's actually different combat styles that you can do with a sword (different kind of swords especially) and different archetypes for each of those styles that really makes them shine, and often in different ways that make it hard to sum up and measure.
Fighter certainly has merit, due to the attack bonus and the various 'duelist' style feats, you could leverage its proficiency situation to get Aldori Duelist with that sweet draw on initiative and riposte reaction option, with plenty of options for you to deploy on your turn and most importantly, do 'interesting' sword maneuvers, what with Dual Handed Assault, Quick Reversal, Snagging Strike and so forth, it even has native grappling support that would get you in the right place for all sorts of European sword styles. The AD reaction puts you in this sport where you can very consistently get foes to trigger your reaction. This would be a clean powerful build with a lot of options.
Swashbuckler is an interesting choice, I'd actually argue you want to try and optimize around Opportune Riposte, and look for ways to create classic defender catch 22's-- where they want to swing at you because you're going to hurt them if they don't, so that you can use riposte... one psychological trick is that the GM is much likelier to 'hail mary' a -10 attack from a monster since they don't have as much kit and the GM is piloting monsters with the expectation they'll die, which can make your riposte surprisingly easy to proc.
But OTOH, you could get a lot of mileage out of a Flurry Ranger with two light blades, essentially framing a good swordsman as a 'drizzt do'urden' type who functions as a blender-- Assassin Archetype with Mark for Death could really make that scream, though obviously due to the need to Mark and Hunt Prey, it has to be played correctly.
If you wanna get really odd with it, there's something to be said for Monk builds-- you have Peafowl stance, and the ability to get some really 'prestige' swordsman weapons through ancestral weaponry. I built a version of it that was based on the Elven Curve Blade, and further deployed One Inch Punch through the weapon for a series of techniques I affectionately called my 'Crescent Moon Technique' with a half moon and full moon slash based off the number of actions used. By taking things like water running and wall running you can def get that mystical swordmaster feel, and have high ac to boot- that 'untouchable defense' vibe.
Rogues have some great tricks they can do (twin feint anyone?) to create some of that sweet sword master energy as well, particularly with debilitation as a way of emulating a skilled swordsman's ability to inflict targeted injury, and Thief Rogue's Dexterity to damage could be a great means of emulating the concept of a graceful sword fighter who doesn't need brute force at all.
Finally, you could emulate the concept of 'pressure' and 'intent to kill' usually associated with these types through builds that impose frighten, either the cold rage of a barbarian with raging intimidation, the braggart swashbuckler, or the fear fighter feats.