I am playing a Cleric in a Curse of the Crimson Throne. I love the characters personality but the class seems to be lacking.
I cannot seem to hit anything, my spells never succeed, and my buffs don't do enough.
Please tell me why/how do people play Clerics that actually contribute
You might want to give us more information on the character. From what you have said it is difficult to answer your question.
It is Gestalt (Exemplar: Brawler)
Domains: Travel & Protection
Earth Channeling
Selective Channel
Versatile Channeler
Improved Initiative
Extra Performance
Master Performer
Combat Reflexes
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You've got a lot of pretty powerful optional rules there.
For your first two complaints, what you're probably running into is that you are too MAD (multiple attribute dependent). You need to try to do less. Right now you need Wis for casting, Cha for channeling and performing, and Str for attack/damage (at a minimum). You also want to have a decent Dex and Con.
If you were starting from scratch in a point-buy game, my advice would be to focus more. If you want to brawl, keep your wisdom to the minimum you will need to cast spells. If you want to land attack spells, maximize your wisdom and don't worry about doing melee damage. In either case, drop your Charisma a bit and get rid of Elemental Channel and Versatile Channeler. (The only way to be moderately decent at channeling is to be 100% focused on it.) Swap Extra Performance for Lingering Performance: it's more efficient, especially once you can start performances faster.
If you rolled stats then there's nothing you can do about it, of course.
As for "my buffs don't do enough" I really don't know what to tell you. Handing out inspire courage and a flexible teamwork feat at the start of combat is amazing. I played an Evangelist Cleric all the way to 15th level and buffing was what I did, and I did it well. From what I understand, people often use gestalt rules when they have few players. So that may be part of the issue: inspire courage in particular gets better as the number of PCs increases. Other than that, what you should be doing is memorizing long duration buffs (greater magic weapon, magic vestment, heroes' feast etc.) every day so that your party members can redirect the money they'd otherwise spend on defensive items. In combat aid another may often be your best option. You are a force multiplier before and in the first round of combat. After that you have to let others take the starring role. You are making a huge contribution to other people's dice rolls, even though it may not show in your own.
Being a focused buffer is often a thankless role unless you are at a table of math geeks who immediately see what a difference you make. It's not for everyone.
Other than that, what you should be doing is memorizing long duration buffs (greater magic weapon, magic vestment, heroes' feast etc.)
All of the long buffs that I read do not stack because of their enchantment bonuses
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Blessing of fervor is the cleric's haste spell. Contagious zeal is a source of bonuses which work for most PCs. Their best other buffs tend to be defensive; prot from evil/magic circle against evil, resist energy/prot from energy & communal versions. Ashen path helps the party make use of fog spells, and there are many spells which deal with conditions one way or another.
There are of course non-defensive spells - shatter and silence (best used in ways which avoid saves), admonishing ray, blindness/deafness, greater forbid action, chains of light.
You should have some feats from the brawler levels which may help. I'm not sure what level you are but brawlers get improved unarmed strike, something like TWF at 2nd (ITWF at 8th), and bonus combat feats at levels 2, 5, 8 etc.
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You made the classic mistake of trying do everything. When you do that, you end up with a character that does everything poorly. Gestalt can actually make that worse instead of better and has in this case. The best way to build a good gestalt character is to look for synergy between the classes. This is actually the most important thing when it comes to gestalt. I don’t see any synergy between the classes in fact I see a great deal of conflict.
With that combination you are being pulled too many ways as far as stats. You probably have mediocre stats in all stats except maybe INT. None your class abilities boost or interact with anything from the other class. Looking at your feats you are doing the same thing there.
Channeling is rarely a good option except in a undead heavy campaign and even then, you need to optimize it heavily to be any good. Versatile Channeler is a trap and throwing selective channel is just making it worse. You basically wasted two feats that could have been used to boost your spells or combat abilities. You are also spending two feats to get a minimal boost on your performances. Simply put your character is spread too thin.
The reason your spells are not working is it looks like you did not invest anything into them. Being able to cast spells does not mean they are going to be effective, especially offensive spells. Did you prioritize your WIS to boost the DC of your spells? Do you have spell focus and greater spell focus to further boost them, so they affect your targets more often?
Talk to your GM and see if he will allow you to rebuild the character. If so figure out what you really want out of the character. If you give us an idea what you want out of the character, it would be easier to give you better advice. I have no idea what you are trying to get out of the character so cannot really do more than just point out mistakes.
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Other than that, what you should be doing is memorizing long duration buffs (greater magic weapon, magic vestment, heroes' feast etc.)All of the long buffs that I read do not stack because of their enchantment bonuses
Which is why the end of that sentence is important:
Other than that, what you should be doing is memorizing long duration buffs (greater magic weapon, magic vestment, heroes' feast etc.) every day so that your party members can redirect the money they'd otherwise spend on defensive items.
Instead of buying +3 armor, they can buy +1 deathless, spell storing armor. (Or whatever.) It's something you have to work out with your party but it really pays off in the long run.
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A few questions:
- What level are you and what is your stat array? Your build seems to want 5 decent or better stats...
- What is the composition of the rest of your party?
- You say you are disappointed with your Cleric: Does this mean you are happy with the Brawler half? Is this character a Cleric who can punch if pushed into a corner, a Brawler who can cast some spells, or some other mixture?
A few general observations:
- Gestalt is a general power increase, so it is typically used when the party is too small to cover all the necessary 'bases' for the adventure - or - the GM is making your foes tougher. As such, a poorly optimized gestalt character can be in for a bad time (remember that you don't gain extra actions, so having twice as many options isn't as helpful as you might think at first).
- The cleric offensive spell list is very good against outsider and undead foes, but fairly weak against anything else (I loved the oracle I played a while back, but she was fighting in the worldwound which made her offensive spells a lot better): Its strength really lies in heals, buffs, and condition removal.
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It is Gestalt (Exemplar: Brawler)
Domains: Travel & Protection
Earth Channeling
Selective Channel
Versatile Channeler
Improved Initiative
Extra Performance
Master Performer
Combat Reflexes
Just to be clear, you spend all your feats (and your second class's archetype) on being a support character, and then you're surprised that you can't also do martial combat and offensive spellcasting well?
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I found a list of the spells my evangelist cleric would prepare at 9th level. Here it is. Note that there are no attack spells listed, I was pure buffing.
1
Liberating Command
Remove Fear
Shield of Faith
Endure Elements
2
Cure Moderate Wounds
Grace
Status
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy
3
Cure Serious Wounds
Magic Vestment
Invisibility Purge
Daylight
Sacred Bond
4
Blessing of Fervor
Greater Magic Weapon
Cure Critical Wounds
5
Breath of Life
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I found a list of the spells my evangelist cleric would prepare at 9th level. Here it is. Note that there are no attack spells listed, I was pure buffing.
1
Liberating Command
Remove Fear
Shield of Faith
Endure Elements2
Cure Moderate Wounds
Grace
Status
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy3
Cure Serious Wounds
Magic Vestment
Invisibility Purge
Daylight
Sacred Bond4
Blessing of Fervor
Greater Magic Weapon
Cure Critical Wounds5
Breath of Life
I find your lack of Protection From Evil / Magic Circle Against Evil disturbing...
I don’t see any synergy between the classes in fact I see a great deal of conflict.
Seriously? I chose it because I thought it did. Full BAB, Strong Reflex Save, Competence Bonus (Inspire Courage) + It eventually uses actions faster than a standard
Other than that, what you should be doing is memorizing long duration buffs (greater magic weapon, magic vestment, heroes' feast etc.)All of the long buffs that I read do not stack because of their enchantment bonusesWhich is why the end of that sentence is important:
Other than that, what you should be doing is memorizing long duration buffs (greater magic weapon, magic vestment, heroes' feast etc.) every day so that your party members can redirect the money they'd otherwise spend on defensive items.Instead of buying +3 armor, they can buy +1 deathless, spell storing armor. (Or whatever.) It's something you have to work out with your party but it really pays off in the long run.
I am about to share the full current build, and the rest of the build I had planned. Unfortunately you will see spells like Magic Vestment do not work because we are using the optional Automatic Bonus Progression Rules
Just to be clear, you spend all your feats (and your second class's archetype) on being a support character, and then you're surprised that you can't also do martial combat and offensive spellcasting well?
I am not going to respond to this statement but you do realize how rude this comes across, and could easily create a flame war for no particular reason. I did say my buffs weren't working too, so what do you do as a player when what you want to do doesn't work (and is in effect), you throw stuff against the fall in hopes of trying to contribute.
MOVING ON
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OUTLINE
Race: Human
Class: Cleric + Brawler
Archetype: Devout Pilgrim + Exemplar
Stats – 25 Points
Str: 14
Dex: 13
Cons: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 17
Cha: 14
OPTIONAL RULES
Gestalt
Elephant in the Room
Automatic Bonus Progression
Background Skills
TRAITS
Dropout (Campaign: Curse of the Crimson Throne)
Exalted of the Society (Faith)
Reactionary (Combat)
FAITH
Deity: Abadar
Domain: Travel
Domain: Defense
Variant Channeling:
Harm—All squares in the area are treated as difficult terrain for 1 minute.
FEATS
1 – Class – Level – Selective Channel
1 – Class – Human – Versatile Channeler
2 - Class - Bonus - Improved Initiative
3 – Class – Level – Extra Performance
5 – Class – Bonus – Combat Reflexes
5 – Class – Level – Master Performer *This is where we are at Level 6
7 - Class - Level - Quick Channel
8 - Class - Bonus - Deft Maneuvers
9 - Class - Level - Greater Trip
11 - Class - Level - Flagbearer
11 - Class - Bonus - Quicken Spell
PLAN
The plan for the build was to create an Earth version of the Hangover Cleric (Another thread I wrote).
The plan was to create difficult terrain for the enemies whilst allowing full mobility for my party thanks to being able to share 'Agile Feet' (Travel Domain) from being a Devout Pilgrim. Which is a a sort of buff, allowing full attacks for allies, and 1 attack from enemies with clever movement, as well as create lots of AoO. This is on top of giving moral and competence bonuses to everyone.
I am not going to respond to this statement but you do realize how rude this comes across, and could easily create a flame war for no particular reason.
It was an honest question, and not flame bait. But if you chose to act wounded when faced with criticism to your unrealistic expectations, I genuinly don't know how I could help you.
Considering that you didn't give enough information to let people actually help, and chose to blame the class ("the class seems to be lacking") instead of looking inwards to find the fault, your post sounded more like whining than a genuine desire for constructive criticism.
I don’t see any synergy between the classes in fact I see a great deal of conflict.Seriously? I chose it because I thought it did. Full BAB, Strong Reflex Save, Competence Bonus (Inspire Courage) + It eventually uses actions faster than a standard
"eventually" being the operative word. Inspiring Prowess is a standard action until 9th level, Channel Energy is a standard action until you get Quick Channel, Field Instruction and spellcasting stay standard actions, and Martial Flexibility also competes for actions. It won't be until 15th level that you can cast, channel, and Inspire Courage, and even then you can't use your other Brawler abilities.
There is nothing from the Brawler side that makes your Cleric stuff (spells, channeling, domain abilities) better. Full BAB + Inspire Courage would normally help out the martial side, but your build takes pretty long to set up right now, and will later use move actions on non-movement too much, to really profit from that. That lack of aviable move actions will also hurt the reach weapon (and Combat Expertise)'s usefulness.
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Synergy is not shoring up your weaknesses; it is the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It is when the ability of one class boosts the ability of another.
An example would be unchained monk/inquisitor. Flurry of Bane can deliver a ridiculous amount of damage. The monk brings full BAB and extra attacks, while the inquisitor is increasing the accuracy and damage of all the attacks. The combination is significantly better than either one by itself. Due to having both evasion and stalwart this character can ignore an affect that that make their save against. Then add in the fact that this combination gets all good saves and probably has decent scores in the stats that boost saves make that even better. Then throw in the fact that the character is probably going to have a high touch AC and CMD makes affecting it with spells that do not get a save even tougher. It also has good mobility to avoid obstacles and can probably move and full attack due to flying kick. Both classes have the same stat requirement which means I can focus on those stats and dump what I don’t need.
So, this character can hit like a truck, has incredible defenses against magic, can move and get a full attack, Boosting WIS improves nearly all its abilities. At this point we have not even considered all the other abilities it can bring to bear. Judgements can boost its already impressive combat ability even further or shore up a weakness as needed. It also has spells that can further boost its abilities through the roof. The inquisitor has teamwork feats that can give it even more attacks. If this character gets a chance to fully buff its damage is incredible. The character can do things that would be difficult for a duo of an inquisitor and a monk to accomplish.
That is synergy.
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Just to clarify, the stats you gave appear to be a 25pt buy + Human Racial adjustment to Wisdom: Does your character actually have a 20 Wisdom at level 6 (+1 bump at level 4 and 'Mental prowess +2' from ABP)?
Follow up question: What's the catch with this campaign? APs are balanced around 4 PCs using 15pt builds, but you are using a 25pt gestalt character! Is the GM boosting your foes, or are you doing it with a party of two characters, or are you just steamrolling everything? This becomes important because
- if your GM is boosting your foes to make them a challenge but your cleric isn't any stronger than a normal cleric, you are going to 'under-perform'
- If your party is small, a lot of buffs become underwhelming (spending an action to give a +2 to the entire party is much more impressive with a 6 PC party than with a 2 PC party).
Gestalt Campaigns are high-powered campaigns, and throughout your entire campaign, your GM will have an extremely difficult, nigh-impossible time challenging your Gestalt Party with APL = CR encounters (barring Tucker's Kobolds-esque encounters). So every encounter you face will either be APL+2=CR to APL+8=CR, or custom-created Gestalt BBEG's and custom-created monsters built specifically to give the party a run for their money. During the early levels 1-7, you'll probably be facing APL+2=CR to APL+3=CR encounters, but in the late game levels 14-20, you'll probably be facing APL+5=CR to APL+8=CR monsters from the bestiary, in addition to custom-created Gestalt BBEG's and monsters.
I looked through your attributes, feat choices, and archetype choices, and I think problem that you're facing is that you're trying to be a well-rounded cleric/brawler who does a bit of everything, and unfortunately, that doesn't fit very well in Gestalt. You need to specialize and specialize hard.
I think your class choices of Brawler + Cleric is solid though. D10 hp, all 3 saves are strong saves, 9th lvl caster, 4/4 BAB ---> this is all solid stuff that will set you up well for success in the early, mid, and late game.
Tbh, I would have a conversation with your GM and tell him that you're not happy with what you've created. Either ask for a 1-time retcon to re-do your Attributes, Feats, & Archetypes, or maybe consider rerolling your character.
One of the most garish issues that I see right off the bat is your attributes. If you're going to specialize Cleric, then that Wisdom needs to be 20, but if you're going to specialize Brawler, that Str or Dex needs to be 20. You really do need to pick one. Either be a Brawler who can also heal and buff, or be a Cleric who can also punch and is tough to kill. Cha is normally a dumpstat for Brawlers, so I don't think a Channelling-focus is a good idea.
If you decide to go 20 Wis Cleric, you should consider changing your deity to Lythertida because her favored weapon is Unarmed Strike, so then you can take Guided Hand to keep your accuracy maxed and ensure it scales well all game. You might not punch hard, but you can make up for this with consistency and accuracy. As a brawler, you'll qualify for Pummeling Style, so you'll be able to add up all your attacks before deducting DR to keep your damage respectable. You might even consider pumping your Cleric-side of things with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for higher DC's, while spending your bonus combat feats on getting Imp/Gr/Quick Dirty Tricks for added survivability (blind is one of the best debuffs in the game).
Conversely, if you decide to go with 20 Str or Dex Brawler, you should consider pumping every single feat and bonus combat feat into getting Pummeling Charge by level 8, and consider getting Dirty Tricks Master by level 11; if Dirty Tricks isn't interesting to you, consider GrTrip + Combat Reflexes + Vicious Stomp + Fortuitous AoMF. With either of these styles of combat, you will be putting out significant hurty-hurt and be able to battlefield control like a champ, but your Cleric side of things will suffer greatly due to this, so I would consider Buffing/Support/Healing spells only, no offensive spells. And plan on using your Channel Energy for cheap out-of-combat heals so you don't use up as many charges from your group's CLW wand. I would go with a 14 Wis to start with this style of build, you could even get away with 13 Wis; your Mental prowess increases by +2 at lvl 6, and then at +4 at level 11, and +6/+2 at level 15, so you'll always be able to qualify to cast all your spells at appropriate levels, but your offensive DC's will be in the dumpster. And tbh, I think going with a Dex build for a Gestalt character would be ideal, because Gestalt can get very rocket-tag-y real quick, so being harder to hit via higher AC & Reflexes is really important, plus your Initiative will be higher as well; those who go first, win.
As far as your archetypes, I would plan on taking archetypes that specialize whichever choice you make here ----^ even more. And if you can't decide on an archetype that enhances your chosen playstyle, then don't take one. Vanilla Brawler and Vanilla Cleric are pretty darn good on their own already, and you don't want to screw up your character's ability to focus HARD on what you're building towards.
Remember that your enemies are just as custom-created as you, or simply 2 to 8 levels more than you at any given time. Building "well-rounded" characters that can do a bit of everything isn't necessary, and is actually to your detriment. I think you'll find that once you've specialized hard into doing a very specific thing, the other stuff you can do still makes you a pretty "well-rounded" character without even building towards it.
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Spell list snipped for lengthI find your lack of Protection From Evil / Magic Circle Against Evil disturbing...
There's a very good evil reason for that: I was playing a cleric of Asmodeus.
Frankly, there aren't a lot of classes that synergize very well with the cleric. Though if you did want to go with a channeling build, then I would have gestalted with a swashbuckler. All good combat stats and some minor improvements to defense.
I'd also be tempted to make an ecclesitheurge cleric with an unchained monk.
You made the classic mistake of trying do everything.
That's the main problem. Though I guess gestalt tends to make people think of trying to do everything.
Channeling is rarely a good option except in a undead heavy campaign and even then, you need to optimize it heavily to be any good.
Focusing on channeling is fine if you just want to be a combat healer and buffer, but really, if you want to do that, then you should have gone with an oracle. Cleric does have the blossoming light archetype which isn't a bad channeler, but I'd still prefer an oracle.
Speaking of focusing, a cleric can't give up on wisdom, so you have to have a decent wisdom to cast your spells, even if you're just a buffer/summoner. And to be a good channeler, you'll also need a decent charisma. A good constitution is necessary for damage sharing with shield other, which is required to make channeling feasible past very low level. So, there aren't a lot of stats left to focus on strength and dexterity. Without a crazy high stat generation system, you just can't be a cleric channeler and be good at fighting. Even most life oracles aren't that good at fighting and they can mostly afford to dump wisdom.
If you're going to focus on Channeling, then I think Brawler is a bad pairing. You'd be better off going with an Oracle of Battle or a Swashbuckler, or maybe even a Paladin. Brawlers usually dump Cha, and honestly the only reason to have a 10 or a 12 on a Brawler is if you're going to include Intimidate via Cornugon Smash into your build.
Like everyone else has said, it's best to take compatible classes in gestalt. For example, when I gestalted my Herald Caller Cleric I went with Druid. They use the same casting stat and the druid gave an animal companion to help fight and wild shape for emergencies.
For my Eldritch Scion Magus, I went Paladin. Again, the same casting stat and the Paladin gave better BAB and saves with some healing.
Brawler can work as a gestalt if you want to be a punchy Cleric, but like the others have said, you can't be a punchy Cleric and a Channeling Cleric AND a blasty Cleric all at the same time. Pick one to focus on and build to that.
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6th level human brawler // cleric, Str 14, +1 longspear.
For your own hitting people purposes you're looking at attacks for +9/+4, 1d8+4, or +7/+2, 1d8+10 w/PA. In a gestalt game where there's significant number inflation that's going to be a bit light on the attack bonus especially.
If you get a round to buff it might be spent flexing up a feat or two as a move or swift action (dedicated adversary will give you +2 attack & damage, untyped) and a standard action casting contagious zeal (+2 attack & damage: morale bonus, 1d6 temp hp). That puts you at +11/+6, 1d8+14 which seems like it'd be more fun. Inspire courage is a +1 competence bonus at this point and stays a standard action until 9th level, but you may not be able to cast a 3rd level spell every combat.
If instead you're doing battlefield control with the likes of negative earth variant channeling then - you're doing BFC. That uses different spells and feats and you shouldn't expect to be doing major damage with the same actions spent.
I don't know what's got into Derklord BTW, he's significantly more aggressive than when I was last here and not just to you.
As others have said, you're attempting to do too many things and perhaps have unrealistic expectations about what you're character will be capable of.
If you want to play something effective, lets ignore channeling pretty much altogether including dropping those feats you spent.
Your stats except wisdom are pretty mediocre.
My recommendation to you is to gestalt with empyreal (wild blooded) sorcerer. Now you are an arcane and divine spell caster with 9th level spell in both, being driven off wisdom.
Max your wisdom and be pick your favorite spells.
Unfortunately, it sounds like this character is already in play. Maybe you can talk to your GM about letting you do a slight rebuild to focus more on casting or brawling. Focusing on either could be fine.
It wouldn't work due to alignment restrictions. Negative earth channeling with cure spells requires me to be neutral, a Paladin requires me to be good.
Just to clarify, the stats you gave appear to be a 25pt buy + Human Racial adjustment to Wisdom: Does your character actually have a 20 Wisdom at level 6 (+1 bump at level 4 and 'Mental prowess +2' from ABP)?
My character at level 6 does have 20 Wisdom
Just to clarify, the stats you gave appear to be a 25pt buy + Human Racial adjustment to Wisdom: Does your character actually have a 20 Wisdom at level 6 (+1 bump at level 4 and 'Mental prowess +2' from ABP)?
Follow up question: What's the catch with this campaign? APs are balanced around 4 PCs using 15pt builds, but you are using a 25pt gestalt character! Is the GM boosting your foes, or are you doing it with a party of two characters, or are you just steamrolling everything? This becomes important because
- if your GM is boosting your foes to make them a challenge but your cleric isn't any stronger than a normal cleric, you are going to 'under-perform'
- If your party is small, a lot of buffs become underwhelming (spending an action to give a +2 to the entire party is much more impressive with a 6 PC party than with a 2 PC party).
We are a party of 4, and our GM is boosting the enemies. We have had two near TPKs in two sessions (We are playing wounds).
Tbh, I would have a conversation with your GM and tell him that you're not happy with what you've created. Either ask for a 1-time retcon to re-do your Attributes, Feats, & Archetypes, or maybe consider rerolling your character.
He is allowing me to make changes (Within reason). No deity switch as I am connected to the Bank/Church of Abadar, and no outrageous swaps of classes e.g Brawler to Psychic.
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The rest of the party is
A Ranger+Cavalier - Sable Company
A Vigilante+Sorcerer -
A Fighter + Alchemsit -
I also played the main damage dealer in our last campaign (Not Gestalt), so want to stay away from filling tat roll, hence the reason why I was attempting to play a buffer
At least most of the party is also less minmax gestalted. Ranger Cavalier just feels redundant to me. Sorcerer vigilante might be good for a sneaky thief type but there are better picks for that. Fighter alchemist can be strong if you pick the right options.
Back to the drawing board
Non-negotiable
- Cleric
- Abadar
- Travel Domain
- Human
Negotiable
- Feats
- Traits
- 2nd Class
- Archetypes
- Really anything else
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My initial thoughts are
Herald Caller + Celestial Sorcerer (Not Emperyeal. Dual Talented Human can cover me).
Evangelist + something
So, do you want to be a caster first or a brawler first?
I think cleric brawler would be fine if you wanted to be more of a brawler who pre-buffs himself. You won’t be an amazing caster or channeler, but that’s fine if it’s what you want.
If you want to be more of a caster then you’ll need to focus on wisdom. Go ecclesitheurge and unchained monk. Great defenses. Built in amulet of mighty fists.
If you want to focus on channeling, then you’ll want to have decent charisma. Swashbuckler or paladin make good options. Paladin is mechanically stronger but comes with hassles of being a paladin. Mercies and an extra set of channeling is super nice though.
If you want to be more of a caster then you’ll need to focus on wisdom. Go ecclesitheurge and unchained monk. Great defenses. Built in amulet of mighty fists.
Focusing on casting/buffing is my preference. I played a Bloodrager for 18 months, bit tired of rolling to attack non stop
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Like everyone else has said, it's best to take compatible classes in gestalt. For example, when I gestalted my Herald Caller Cleric I went with Druid. They use the same casting stat and the druid gave an animal companion to help fight and wild shape for emergencies.
For my Eldritch Scion Magus, I went Paladin. Again, the same casting stat and the Paladin gave better BAB and saves with some healing.
Brawler can work as a gestalt if you want to be a punchy Cleric, but like the others have said, you can't be a punchy Cleric and a Channeling Cleric AND a blasty Cleric all at the same time. Pick one to focus on and build to that.
I admit the few times I got to play gestalt I went wizard/Ranger. I blame an online "What would you be as a 3rd ed character" I took that gave me a 5th level ranger 2, sorc 3 result (fairly low stats and well that's another topic). So I tend to stick to that I love magic and the versatility of wizard/arcanist (haven't had a chance to do a gestalt since before arcanists were released sadly) and ranger does appeal on a number of levels. Not enough for me to take ranger levels normally but gestalt I do.
Its not actually as bad I thought it would be when first taking it for a ray caster full BAB, ranger combat styles give you precise shot for free (and I think there's a gunslinger archetype too) ranger gives high fort/ref while arcanist gives high will. Anyway that's the kind of thing you want to look for classes that together either fill in weaknesses on a class that's your primary role or synergizes together with it e.g. wizard/sorc with the sorc spell choices being your commonly used ones and the wizard choices providing versatility. Either way though you pick a primary role you want and aim to benefit that one way or the other. Trying to do two roles because you have two classes e.g. wizard/fighter and it gets a lot harder and you'll probably wind up losing out on both. More options but lower top ceiling.
I have my own personal dislikes of the divine casters but I'm fairly sure chanelling is a trap for clerics. It seems like a normal class feature but it actually works diffferntly enough to their other abiilties you need to either largely ignore it or build around it. If you want to be a buffer/caster I think you want to be more like a wizard and raise your wisdom while having lower other stats. Not dumping to the degree a wizard does but definately higher wisdom score. Not that you can probably do much about that however it affects your saves for offensive spells.
For buffs you'll want spells that generally work without a heavy investment from you like heroism it lasts 10 minutes a level and gives the party member +2 morale bonus on all checks, attack rolls, saves, and weapon damage rolls. I think morale's a less common buff boost so this is often the equivalent of +4 to a stat and lasts a decent amount of time. Another good option is protection from evil the +2 deflection to Ac and +2 resistance to saves lose value as you level up (common bonus types so they tend to overlap and have less value). However the second and third benefits remain useful for quite awhile. That is granting a second save (if they get one) against mental domination and possesion and just flat out negating natural attacks from evil creatures till you attack them (they can make a spell resistance check against this).
I decent is Summoning in Gestalt considering the summons aren't gestalted?
Edit: I also don't think any summons are Lawful Neutral so Sacred Summons is useless
OUTLINE
Race: Human (Dual Talented)
Class: Cleric + Fighter
Archetype: Evangelist + Lore Warden
Stats – 25 Points
Str: 15+2: 17
Dex: 14
Cons: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16+2: 18
Cha: 8
OPTIONAL RULES
Gestalt
Elephant in the Room
Automatic Bonus Progression
Background Skills
TRAITS
Dropout (Campaign: Curse of the Crimson Throne)
Reactionary (Combat)
Magical Lineage (Magic)
Scarred (Drawback)
FAITH
Deity: Abadar
Domain: Leadership (Nobility)
FEATS
1 – Class – Level – Extra Performance
1 – Class – Bonus – Flagbearer
2 - Class - Bonus - Combat Reflexes
3 – Class – Level – Master Performer
4 – Class – Bonus – Improved Initiative
5 – Class – Bonus – Spell Focus (Necromancy?)
6 – Class – Bonus – Deft Maneuvers
7 - Class - Level - Persistent Spell
8 - Class - Bonus - Greater Trip
9 - Class - Level - Grand Master Performer
10 - Class - Bonus - (Advanced Weapon Training)
11 - Class - Level - Divine Interference
12 - Class - Bonus - TBD
13 - Class - Bonus - Quicken Spell
14 - Class - Bonus - TBD
15 - Class - Bonus - Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
PLAN
New plan, still contributes in melee via AoO, buff everyone with an action other than standard, and then cast lockdown spells with my standard (I am looking at Bestow Curse hence the Necromancy Spell Focus) but really I am look for the school of magic it will be most useful). I quickly ran out of needed combat feats, I think they would all go into Advanced Weapon Training to shore up some of my weaknesses.
Back to the drawing board
Non-negotiable
- Cleric
- Abadar
- Travel Domain
- HumanNegotiable
- Feats
- Traits
- 2nd Class
- Archetypes
- Really anything else_____________________________________________________________
My initial thoughts are
Herald Caller + Celestial Sorcerer (Not Emperyeal. Dual Talented Human can cover me).
Evangelist + something
Keep in my that the sorcerer spell list is offensively oriented. Having a low charisma (less than 17) means you're offensive spells will probably be ineffective. That was why I suggested Empyreal bloodline.
If you play a celestial bloodline sorcerer, you should make charisma your primary stat, and keep only enough wisdom to be able to cast cleric spells you have access to at your level. Your cleric spells should mostly be buffing, utility, or healing. Use your sorcerer spells for offense.
One thing worth noting, with a 4 person party your psuedo-bard buffing is maybe not as effective as one might hope. Because you have to activate it as a standard action, your exchanging doing something more useful on your turn for a slight buff. In such a small party this isn't very effective at low levels (because the magnitude of the buff is pretty small).
Throwing out a crowd control spell (at least to start combat) from the sorcerer spell list would be much more effective action economy a lot of times.
Something to keep in mind.
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Herald Caller is a good choice for a cleric that does not have maxed out WIS. Since you can spontaneously cast both summons and cure/inflict spells that gives you a lot more options. A high WIS is not important when you are summoning. This is one of the few spell casting cleric builds that does not require maxing out your WIS. Memorize buff spells and convert them into summon or cures as needed. The buffs may have been disappointing as a main role, but as a secondary role it works fine. This gives you a lot more freedom to choose your secondary class.
Celestial Sorcerer is actually not a bad choice if you are going to max out Cha. This is a lot better synergy than the last combination. The bloodline arcana boosts your summons from the cleric without having to waste your spells known learning summon monster. The focus on CHA means your channel energy will be more efficient and you will get more of them. Use the human favored class bonus to learn more spells. Since the cleric can handle the defensive and support spells all your sorcerer spells can be devoted to offense.
This is a much better combination, and with a little optimizing can be made into a decent character.
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Herald Caller is a good choice for a cleric that does not have maxed out WIS.
True. And the bonus feats mean you don't need to invest much in summoning, though you could. So, it's pretty good as a channeler.
Alternatively, there's nothing keeping you from going full caster and maxing wisdom with the herald caller.
If you want to go heavy on summoning, then combine herald caller cleric with monster tactician inquisitor. You won't be much for fighting personally, but you'll have a wide variety of spells based on your focused wisdom and enough summons to keep even gestalt busy.
The thing about summoned monsters is that they really don't have to do amazing damage to be relevant. It can be enough that they take enemy attacks in place of your party and they provide you with extra combat options like flanking. Of course, doing damage and bringing good utility spells is also a benefit of summoning, but don't feel bad if they don't last long. Actions used to kill summons are actions you don't have to spend future rounds and resourcing healing.
I also don't think any summons are Lawful Neutral so Sacred Summons is useless
"Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment." All animals on the list(s) are marked thus.
The rest of the party is
A Ranger+Cavalier - Sable Company
A Vigilante+Sorcerer -
A Fighter + Alchemsit -
Classes aren't builds, so this is not as useful as you presumably though. It would be helpful to know what the chars mainly do in combat (especially whether the 'Sorcilante' mainly attacks or casts spell, and what the 'Fightchemist' mainly attacks with).
I don't know what's got into Derklord BTW, he's significantly more aggressive than when I was last here and not just to you.
My posts become suddenly a lot less aggressive if you take them at face value rather than trying to read some passive-aggressiveness into them. I was genuinly surprised and curious about the OP's expectations.
Many people may think that throwing builds at a player until they get lucky and find one they like was the pinnacle of character design, but I consider starting with expectations and desires, and molding the character based on that, to be the proper way to do it. You yourself listed a whole lot of stuff that does not match Minigiant's "Focusing on casting/buffing is my preference", because instead of inquiring, you made assumptions.
Frankly, there aren't a lot of classes that synergize very well with the cleric.
Well, there's always Summoner... for the Eidolon, not the summons.
Herald Caller is a good choice for a cleric that does not have maxed out WIS.
If you want to go heavy on summoning, then combine herald caller cleric with monster tactician inquisitor.
Yeah I have decided to stay away from summoning. Managing it all is too much of a headache.
I also don't think any summons are Lawful Neutral so Sacred Summons is useless"Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment." All animals on the list(s) are marked thus.
Sacred Summons requires the creatures alignment subtype to match. My own alignment has no bearing on it working
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Now that we've got more information, I'm going to hazard there are two reasons why you don't enjoy what's going on:
1. The game is too high-powered. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with houseruling for more power. The homebrew RPGs I played as a teenager were all about us getting big numbers. But an overall increased power level (on both the player and GM side) can effectively narrow the number of useful options as only the most powerful can contribute.
2. Your classes aren't synergizing well. This is a gestalt problem, and contributes to your issues with problem 1. Gestalt characters have more options, but action economy doesn't change. So usually you either want one of your classes to be mostly passive abilities that don't require actions to activate (such as a fighter) or you want two classes that play well together already (such as oracle/sorcerer, which is essentially an even better Mystic Theurge).
So my suggestion is to make your second class be monk (sensei/qinggong). Here's where your bardic performances come from, plus you also get wisdom to AC, wisdom to attack rolls, and the best saves in the game. And great party buffs as you level. Ecclesitheurge synergizes well with this since you won't be wearing armor anyway.
OUTLINE
Race: Human (Dual Talented)
Class: Cleric + Fighter
Archetype: Evangelist + Lore Warden
Stats – 25 Points
Str: 14+2: 16
Dex: 12
Cons: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16+2: 18
Cha: 14
ATTRIBUTE INCREASES
4th - CHA
8,12,16,20 - WIS
TRAITS
Dropout (Campaign: Curse of the Crimson Throne)
Reactionary (Combat)
Magical Lineage (Magic)
Scarred (Drawback)
FAITH
Deity: Abadar
Domain: Trade (Travel)
FEATS
1 – Class – Level – Extra Performance
1 – Class – Bonus – Improved Initiative
2 - Class - Bonus - Combat Reflexes
3 – Class – Level – Master Performer
4 – Class – Bonus – Flagbearer
5 – Class – Bonus – Spell Focus (Necromancy?)
6 – Class – Bonus – Deft Maneuvers
7 - Class - Level - Reach Spell
8 - Class - Bonus - Greater Trip
9 - Class - Level - Grand Master Performer
10 - Class - Bonus - (Advanced Weapon Training)
11 - Class - Level - Divine Interference
12 - Class - Bonus - TBD
13 - Class - Bonus - Quicken Spell
14 - Class - Bonus - TBD
15 - Class - Bonus - Persistent Spell
16 - Class - Bonus - TBD
17 - Class - Bonus - Spell Perfection
16 - Class - Bonus - TBD
17 - Class - Bonus - Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
PLAN
Reach Cleric; contributes in melee via AoO, buff everyone with Bardic Performance, and then cast Reach Ssve or Suck spells with my standard (I am looking at Bestow Curse/Harm hence the Necromancy Spell Focus) but really I am looking for the school of magic it will be most useful). I quickly ran out of needed combat feats, I think they would all go into Advanced Weapon Training to shore up some of my weaknesses (Looking for suggestions for other Combat Feats)
Back to the drawing board
Non-negotiable
- Cleric
- Abadar
- Travel Domain
- HumanNegotiable
- Feats
- Traits
- 2nd Class
- Archetypes
- Really anything else_____________________________________________________________
My initial thoughts are
Herald Caller + Celestial Sorcerer (Not Emperyeal. Dual Talented Human can cover me).
Evangelist + something
A possibly interesting option might be cleric (evangelist)//gunslinger (bolt ace), mixing ranged attacks with buffing and spells; a light crossbow and Rapid Reload is probably sufficient. After 5th level (gaining Dex to damage and 19-20/x3 criticals with light crossbows), you can either stay in gunslinger for the full BAB or switch to inquisitor (probably either preacher or tactical leader archetype).
Ability scores should be Wis > Dex > Cha > anything else.
OUTLINERace: Human (Dual Talented)
Class: Cleric + Fighter
Archetype: Evangelist + Lore WardenStats – 25 Points
Str: 14+2: 16
Dex: 12
Cons: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16+2: 18
Cha: 14ATTRIBUTE INCREASES
4th - CHA
8,12,16,20 - WISTRAITS
Dropout (Campaign: Curse of the Crimson Throne)
Reactionary (Combat)
Magical Lineage (Magic)
Scarred (Drawback)FAITH
Deity: Abadar
Domain: Trade (Travel)
My main thought looking at this is that you're not helping yourself because you're still trying to make a well rounded character, but what you're really doing is creating competition within your character for what action you should take.
Early on you're going to have to choose between spending standard actions to attack, cast a spell, or buff people with your performance.
In my eyes, that alone makes it a bad decision.
Eventually you can buff as a move action at level 7, which will still basically lock you in place for that turn. At level 13 you can finally start it as a swift action, but it's a long time to wait to be able to walk into melee range if you need to.
Personally, I think you need to avoid any sort of martial combat activity. Your action economy simply doesn't support it.
I think you're best combining evangelist cleric with another (not divine) spell casting class. While you're two spell list sort of compete, it is really just that it gives you greater flexibility in what spells you have access to. Allowing you to choose the right spell for the situation.
PF1 (in my experience) is about maximize your capability to do 1 (maybe 2) things and being incompetent at everything else. But it's okay, that's why you play as a team/group. Ideally, everyone has their niche and minimal overlap. Trying to make a character cover all the bases means you end up doing a little bit of everything poorly compared to those who specialize.
Judging by the number of feats he said he had, I'm guessing he's at least level 7 currently.
My main thought looking at this is that you're not helping yourself because you're still trying to make a well rounded character, but what you're really doing is creating competition within your character for what action you should take.Early on you're going to have to choose between spending standard actions to attack, cast a spell, or buff people with your performance.
I am not planning on attacking, I will only be tripping as part of an AoO. Then use my standard to cast spells. Hopefully party wide spell before combat, then turn one start performing, and then turn 1or2 cast spells. I based it off of the Reach Cleric guide