What do you want from a 2e Medium?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Previous aspirational class threads have gone well, so I figured I’d go for a close friend’s favorite - the Medium! I don’t know how well the class functioned in 1e, but the pitch - a twist on the awesome ideas of the 3.5 Binder class - has a pretty profound appeal. How would you want it realized in the current edition?

I think the options presented in 1e supplements of more specific spirits - I see a collection of Chelish ones on the archives, while the Ulfen spirits known to the Mahwek people are one of my favorite obscure tidbits - is the right track. This class will shine the more tightly bound it is to Golarion, IMO! Though the question of how to scale that up is a challenging one.

Silver Crusade

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I really liked the Medium in P1, it's biggest hurdle was that it was a "master of none" style so a lot of people defaulted into the Champion spirit to smack stuff and occasionally cast spells.

And P2 doesn't really allow or encourage that, so if it was attempted again it would be the most complicated and wordcount heavy class yet.

Alternatively you could pick a "main" spirit(s) and give them free range feats like letting them trade out Archetypes daily or something or other free swap feats like how Brawler was in P1? Would be a lot of work still.

I like them more for their aesthetics still so "using spirits/powered by spirits/possessed" and I'd be interested.

Maybe they could focus on the possession aspect and ditch the pick-your-style-per-spirit so if you pick a Demon to be possessed by the class would play one way but if you were possessed by ghosts it would play a different way? Hmmm.


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If I'm being honest, a large part of my interest in the Medium comes because of friend of mine and I once tried to build a tarot-themed class based on the Persona games. A class which channels spirits and had at least the concept of binding Harrow cards was a hilarious "official" version of that, even if the Harrow reader version of Medium never quite hit the table that I knew of.

From a thematic standpoint I still loved the idea (and laughed out loud at the archetype which, iirc, allowed you to invert the Medium/spirit relationship by narratively being the spirit, rather than the vessel, gaining more control the stronger the spirit's influence, rather than less) but it's also a class whose themes vs. mechanics I struggled to imagine, since at the time I found it difficult to imagine a prospective Medium happening upon convenient locations to draw up their preferred daily spirits in an ever-moving adventure.

I would still love to see something done with the basic concept, either from a narrative or a mechanical standpoint (perhaps a medium handling spirits could finally be that dedicated Occult caster that many have been vying for). Like Rysky said, there were definitely flaws with the Medium's attempt at a hyper flexible skill set and it didn't feel like you could really afford not to specialize in only a few of your class options. All the same, it's been a few years, maybe there are some cool suggestions out there.

Heck, maybe the Medium is our Wis-based Pick-a-List caster, based on the classification of spirits they allow to inhabit their body, like a Summoner but internally. On the other hand, please don't throw things at me, I'm not asking for that to happen and I don't think it would necessarily be the most interesting direction for the themes in play.

Liberty's Edge

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Ancestors Oracle sounds similar in some ways to what has been mentioned here.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Ancestors Oracle sounds similar in some ways to what has been mentioned here.

I was going to write the same.

I also second Sibelius about the possibility that the medium might be our "Wis-based pick-a-list caster"

Hope it won't result game breaking in terms of narrative like the investigator though.

Silver Crusade

Even though that was it's thing in P1 I hope Medium will not be Pick-a-List, since those have all been underwhelming in P2 and have to be spread thinner than one class that gets just one list.

Even less than all 4 would be kinda-okay, asymmetry isn't inherently a bad thing.

Maybe picking a combat or casting path and then letting them trade out skills daily would be the most succint option?

Liberty's Edge

What role do you see for a Medium and how is this role currently filled by existing classes ?

This should help us better understand what will make the Medium class unique.


I agree on that asymmetry isn't inherently a bad thing, but looking closer at our current situation:

INT spellcasters

- Wizard ( Arcana ) ( Prepared spellcaster )
- Witch ( Pick-A-List ) ( Prepared spellcaster )

WIS spellcasters

- Druid ( Primal ) ( Prepared spellcaster )
- Cleric ( Divine ) ( Prepared spellcaster )

CHA spellcasters

- Sorcerer ( Pick-A-List ) ( Spontaneous Spellcaster )
- Bard ( Occult ) ( Spontaneous Spellcaster )
- Oracle ( Divine ) ( Spontaneous Spellcaster )

What I see is that:

- CHA based spellcasters are meant to only be spontaneous ones
- WIS is the only group who doesn't have a Pick-a-List variant ( and the two available are the most healing oriented traditions )

Now, as for the spontaneous spellcasting, we can deal with it with the flexible spellcaster archetype ( We have to trade off 33% of our slots, unless we pick a wizard ).

What we can't really deal with is a WIS based pick-a-list ( not sure whether it's intended or not though ), and I admit I would be pleased to have one.

Rather than a Combat/Casting ( as for the cloistered/warpriest ) I'd like something like the oracle ( significative bonuses which cannot be replicated by any other means, but also a drastic drawback if the character pushes it too far).

I'd also like to have, someday, a class able to get its refocusing at earlier levels ( 1-6-12-18[1 extra focus pool point ], rather than 1-12-18 ), but I am not sure this could properly fit a medium class.

Liberty's Edge

Rysky wrote:

Even though that was it's thing in P1 I hope Medium will not be Pick-a-List, since those have all been underwhelming in P2 and have to be spread thinner than one class that gets just one list.

Even less than all 4 would be kinda-okay, asymmetry isn't inherently a bad thing.

Maybe picking a combat or casting path and then letting them trade out skills daily would be the most succint option?

I feel Medium with daily Pick a list might be properly balanced with wave casting.

WIS as KAS is harder to balance with Pick a List IMO, especially if it's a daily Pick.

Liberty's Edge

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Some ideas springing :

Change your background granted skill feat and lore when making daily preparations. Or get an additional background of your choice, without the stat boost.

Get a free MC Dedication, and subsequent feats based on level, that does not interact with other archetypes and that you can change daily. Maybe with a restriction that you cannot access Class feats this way.

A Martial chassis, but when you choose a caster dedication, you are Enfeebled or Clumsy according to your highest STR or DEX stat.


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Ah excellent, another place to shamelessly beg for a way to play a fiend-keeper medium.

I think that the medium more than most classes would benefit from class paths. I would envision it as picking what kind of spirits you would want to channel/be possessed by. You could pick from whatever spirits would happen to be in the area (similar to the regular medium), you could have a collection of specific spirits that you can cycle through, or you could have a single powerful spirit (this would be the fiend keeper option).

Another interesting possibility that I believe Animated Paper used in their homebrew medium is having mechanics for how you're using/obtained the spirit(s). You could have convinced them with Deception/Diplomacy/Intimidation, you could have some sort of contract or agreement with them, or you could be holding them in check through willpower alone. I like this idea because it allows for a wide variety of tropes to be filled.

I personally would prefer wisdom based, and pick-a-list would be nice, but occult only seems reasonable.

Liberty's Edge

Deception, Diplomacy and Intimidation are CHA skills though.

In fact, I feel the Medium would make more sense as CHA-based rather than WIS-based.


Yeah, I was just listing various mechanics that I thought were cool, not necessarily saying to include them all. The previous medium was cha based, so I wouldn't be surprised if the 2e one would be as well. Just stating my preference.


I would definitely see medium as cha-based. In my mind, they're all about making deals, convincing the spirits to help out, and serving as diplomats between the living and the dead.

I actually had a post that considered this a while back. Let me see if I can dig it up.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
So, working on the idea that PF2 will give you your beloved classes and maybe twist them a bit... what about Medium as an occult wave caster? Rather than being a fighter/caster gish, it's an envoy/caster gish - one that eats a bunch of the old 3.x Binder concept (as the Medium does, but possibly even moreso). Basically, they serve as diplomats between the living and the dead, and the spirits that they channel give them little tricks that they can use along the way, but those tricks are something like half of the build budget.

SO... basically that. Cha-based occult wave casting, with the other half of the chassis being effectively Envoy tricks that that they can swap in and out each day depending on which spirits they connect to. For even more of a twist, they don't get access to the full list of spirits. Instead, you have something like a spirit book of spirits who are willing to deal with you, and you choose your N-per-day spirits from *those*. (Probably have a max number you can know, too.) It lets you effectively give yourself a few different loadouts that you can choose between while not making your daily options exactly the same as every other medium's daily options.


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Rysky wrote:
Even though that was it's thing in P1 I hope Medium will not be Pick-a-List, since those have all been underwhelming in P2 and have to be spread thinner than one class that gets just one list.

I'm not convinced that the problems with our current pick-a-list classes always comes from the pick-a-list though.

Sorcerer does. Once you pick a tradition, about a third of your class feats become unavailable.

But while Witch certainly has problems that need addressed, being spread too thin because of the choice of tradition isn't really one of them.

Summoner is an even better class to show that pick-a-list can work quite well. If that class feels spread too thin, it is definitely because of the Eidolon, not the choice of spellcasting tradition. And there are not a lot of bad things being said about the Summoner class. (Summoner Archetype, yes - but not the main class)


I played alongside a 1E Medium and it was... Underwhelming, but that was mostly on the player essentially "maining" one spirit and only changing it twice throughout the WHOLE CAMPAIGN! So my expectations are low if it comes back, but I'm hopeful of the concept, and I wanted to play an Artifact Medium at some point, but never got the chance.
I like the Persona User idea to set them apart from the Stand User that is the Summoner, but I don't know how PF2 would work with that.

A Wis based any-list sounds like a fun class, but a Medium doesn't feel like the class to take that role, but it could work/be cool. I also like the caster/skill monkey idea of a wave caster Envoy type that doesn't focus on DPR but utility and status effects, and the Medium seems poised to fill THAT role perfectly.


Some thoughts:
One of the primary issues with the 1e medium was that it's inherent strength -- flexibility -- really only translated across multiple days and longer campaigns. It traded specialization for the ability to be passable any role but only one role within the context of a given day. If you picked the wrong spirit for a given day, it doesn't really help, and in a fairly static party you probably got pigeonholed into one or two roles (with exceptions to campaigns like Kingmaker where parties might split up and do a lot of variable things with downtime). In practice, it was hard to do more than that anyway because your feats (other than 1 to 2) wouldn't change as you swapped roles anyway. I believe the play test medium was always meant to let you cobble a few spirits together to better tailor your resulting role, but the released version didn't really work like that and you usually just ended up as a lesser version of some other class.

As pointed out earlier, the Ancestor oracle in 2e has a bit of a medium vibe, but I'd argue it's swung the other way in flexibility from being long-term to almost too short term... round to round the player needs to flex into roles. Part of that is the curse, but I think it highlights the tricky nature of a flexible role like this. The inventor also has some unique features in being able to quickly retrain several class features by reconfiguring.

I could see a 2e medium being a bit like a flexible rogue, possibly gaining skill proficiency bumps and skill feats dynamically each day after prep (with fewer overall). I think it's important that these daily choices also have some mechanism to be changed throughout the day. There are already a lot of ancestry feats that give flexible access to skills so this is an established paradigm. It's probably important that there's some core proficiency set though so players can select feats that work mostly regardless of their specific daily picks of whatever's flexible.

I also don't see the medium as being anything other than occult -- maybe a bounded occult caster. Ability to pull off other lists based on the spirit could / probably should look a bit like the sorcerer's ability to poach off list, maybe via a feat that lets them get a bonus spell of their highest slot to cast a single spell from an opposing list. There's probably an argument here that you could go primal and make this into a Shaman too. Not sure if that's a great idea, personally.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A Medium class should be not too small and not too big...
It really depends on what your definition of a Medium is. If you're going by someone who can facilitate conversations with the dead.
Not sure if there is enough there in just that to build a class around for PCs could be a useful NPC class or work for PCs as an archetype. Could be fun if the Medium actually undergoes possession by the dead, which could create lots of interesting Roleplaying chanalges for the player.


cavernshark wrote:

Some thoughts:

One of the primary issues with the 1e medium was that it's inherent strength -- flexibility -- really only translated across multiple days and longer campaigns. It traded specialization for the ability to be passable any role but only one role within the context of a given day. If you picked the wrong spirit for a given day, it doesn't really help, and in a fairly static party you probably got pigeonholed into one or two roles (with exceptions to campaigns like Kingmaker where parties might split up and do a lot of variable things with downtime). In practice, it was hard to do more than that anyway because your feats (other than 1 to 2) wouldn't change as you swapped roles anyway. I believe the play test medium was always meant to let you cobble a few spirits together to better tailor your resulting role, but the released version didn't really work like that and you usually just ended up as a lesser version of some other class.

So... I wasn't proposing a change in role, but the point about having to predict at the beginning of the day still stands. So... what if it wasn't per day? Something like...

- There's a group of possible defined spirits. Of those, you have a set that gets along with you - starting with something like 2, and ending with somewhere int eh 5-8 range. "what bonded spirits do I have" is one of the major topics for frobbing with class feats - unlocking particularly unique spirits, improving specific spirits, just having more spirits available and so forth.
- You can draw any of your spirits into yourself with a single action and a focus point. This gives you access to the abilities that spirit grants, and possibly gives you some sort of spirit-specific anathema and/or drawback as well. Spirits are released on refocus.
- progress on focus points and focus recovery are built into the class chassis, and do not require further feats spent.

Part of the build budget would be based around the idea that a "spirit junction" focus power would actually be somewhat stronger overall than a standard focus power, plus a bit more on top of that for whatever anathemas or drawbacks came with it. For example, a really simple one might be something like...

- Get access to X cantrip
- Get some minor buff (+2 status bonus to some particular skill use?)
- Release spirit to do this other thing that's roughly equivalent to a standard focus spell
- appropriate minor thematic drawback

...and you'd guard against multiclass abuse by making the archetype version of "Spirit Junction" be 1/day.


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I think making the default medium work like the Spirit Dancer medium did in PF1, where instead of channeling a spirit at breakfast and walking around with a dozen great generals in your head all day, you contact the spirits in the moment that are relevant to what you're trying to do. The spirit dancer in PF1 had a problem where your rounds of possession were extremely limited, but Rage doesn't have a limit anymore just a downside, so I think you can structure the medium around something like Rage where you enter a state for a set period of time, whenever you want, and there are downsides upon the duration expiring.

But unlike the barbarian you're not a straight up martial class, and you don't just have one version of Medium-Rage, you have several.


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You know, I've been thinking the Medium might actually have more room for cool abilities as a Bounded caster. Instead of being defined so much by spell list, they could have spells as a bonus to their main sctick with spirit channeling... Provided there was something you can do with spirit channeling that you can just keep up with every day. Being really good at dealing with hauntings and getting in touch with the spiritual history of a significant location doesn't seem quite as evergreen of a skill set as hitting bad guys really hard with a sword or unloading fireballs, and most of the obvious alternatives seem like they'll be rolled into the upcoming Thaumaturge.

(On that note, I don't even necessarily feel like the Medium needs spellcasting if its core spirit channeling mechanic gives it enough toys to work with outside of spells. Maybe enter a spirit trance for combat and gain powers based on the kind of spirit, probably include a focus spell or two--though again, the Thaumaturge is going before where these ideas would follow, and already took some backlash for having the audacity to wield supernatural abilities without being a spellcaster, even though their default training in all four traditions means they probably know as much basic magical theory as any actual caster.)

Seeing how the Psychic comes out with its lower spell slots traded off for increased power in peripheral magic abilities I think will be instructive. Maybe even your class path determines whether you channel spirits that enhance your combat ability, or spirits that put you in touch with occult powers, and your actual balance of spellcasting will vary from a more mystical medium to a warrior medium.


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I loved the incredible and complicated harrowed medium from the playtest. That is unrealistic, for the same reasons it was before.

I'm seeing something like free multiclassing archetypes that can be switched between. Maybe even with a just-under-max ability score that moves around with it? But, that is also a very homebrew-oriented design, one that offloads as much as possible to existing material.

Liberty's Edge

Not quite sure beyond the following: I want it to EITHER be:

A) Something almost entirely different than a Summoner in terms of mechanics, features, and spellcasting.
or
B) A Summoner Class Archetype trading Eidolon for Phantom while leaving nearly all current Feats that impact Eidolons work with the Phantom.


Themetricsystem wrote:

Not quite sure beyond the following: I want it to EITHER be:

A) Something almost entirely different than a Summoner in terms of mechanics, features, and spellcasting.
or
B) A Summoner Class Archetype trading Eidolon for Phantom while leaving nearly all current Feats that impact Eidolons work with the Phantom.

I don’t know that I see much connection between Medium and Summoner - Medium spirits weren’t really manifested the way a companion/eidolon is.

Are you sure you aren’t thinking of Spiritualists? They were already rolled into the 2e Summoner with the Phantom eidolons.

Liberty's Edge

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Oh dip, yeah, got the two mixed up for sure.

I'll just go wash the dumb off my face now...


That being said, looking at Summoner might be a reasonable place to start examining interactions if the Medium goes with the one spirit method. They'll have similar feat allocation space if nothing else.

Personally I'd like to see the Thaumaturge in play, since I like the idea of limiting the number of spirits, and they could work similar to the Thaum's implements. That was how Medium worked out in practice in 1E anyway, because you can only stretch your stats so far.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

One thing I've thought about is what if pf2e takes inspiration from the original medium that used the harrow deck. Maybe feat names, or character options can be connected to the different cards?

Silver Crusade

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breithauptclan wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Even though that was it's thing in P1 I hope Medium will not be Pick-a-List, since those have all been underwhelming in P2 and have to be spread thinner than one class that gets just one list.

I'm not convinced that the problems with our current pick-a-list classes always comes from the pick-a-list though.

Sorcerer does. Once you pick a tradition, about a third of your class feats become unavailable.

But while Witch certainly has problems that need addressed, being spread too thin because of the choice of tradition isn't really one of them.

Summoner is an even better class to show that pick-a-list can work quite well. If that class feels spread too thin, it is definitely because of the Eidolon, not the choice of spellcasting tradition. And there are not a lot of bad things being said about the Summoner class. (Summoner Archetype, yes - but not the main class)

to show my opinion of PaLs... I honestly forgot Summoner was PaL XD

Silver Crusade

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I do prefer they be Wisdom based, since to me a lot of the Medium aesthetic is based on Willpower and awareness, and that comes from Wisdom, over force of personality.

Having a choice could be interesting.

Silver Crusade

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SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Ah excellent, another place to shamelessly beg for a way to play a fiend-keeper medium.

I think that the medium more than most classes would benefit from class paths. I would envision it as picking what kind of spirits you would want to channel/be possessed by. You could pick from whatever spirits would happen to be in the area (similar to the regular medium), you could have a collection of specific spirits that you can cycle through, or you could have a single powerful spirit (this would be the fiend keeper option).

Another interesting possibility that I believe Animated Paper used in their homebrew medium is having mechanics for how you're using/obtained the spirit(s). You could have convinced them with Deception/Diplomacy/Intimidation, you could have some sort of contract or agreement with them, or you could be holding them in check through willpower alone. I like this idea because it allows for a wide variety of tropes to be filled.

I personally would prefer wisdom based, and pick-a-list would be nice, but occult only seems reasonable.

Ooo I forgot about the Fiend-Keeper, that pushes me even more into the "pick how you're possessed" style paths rather than picking a STR/CON/DEX/WIS/INT/CHA and then flavoring it after the fact.

I remember liking the Legendary spirits from P1 but they were impractical in that you couldn't get them unless the GM planned the whole campaign around them.


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I know I already suggested Wis when I was mentioning pick-a-list, but I want to throw my full support behind having another Wis-based class out there. I don't care what people say about it being so difficult to balance around having a useful primary stat (tbh this talk kind of bewilders me) but I really want another class that can synergize off Wis.

I have a remote reservation about making them a pure occult caster if only because that will make them the third Occult full caster while Primal yet remains with Druid alone (obviously not counting our PaLs), but if the Medium had magic I would 100% prefer Wis Occult over anything else, ideally distinguishing them from others with bounded casting or something else.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I know I already suggested Wis when I was mentioning pick-a-list, but I want to throw my full support behind having another Wis-based class out there. I don't care what people say about it being so difficult to balance around having a useful primary stat (tbh this talk kind of bewilders me) but I really want another class that can synergize off Wis.

I have a remote reservation about making them a pure occult caster if only because that will make them the third Occult full caster while Primal yet remains with Druid alone (obviously not counting our PaLs), but if the Medium had magic I would 100% prefer Wis Occult over anything else, ideally distinguishing them from others with bounded casting or something else.

The obvious pull for another Primal caster is a 2e Shaman, which is something we've heard at least some interest for from the designers.


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(Complete aside: while I happen to be on the topic of occult casters and bounded casting, I would love to see a Bard class archetype that cuts them back to bounded casting and puts the warrior back in warrior poet with some cool skald war songs/war drummer powers to make it really interesting--warrior muse doesn't quite scratch that itch, remaining a full caster who can wield the sword but doesn't break from the full caster enough to make swinging it as effective as I'd like)


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
(Complete aside: while I happen to be on the topic of occult casters and bounded casting, I would love to see a Bard class archetype that cuts them back to bounded casting and puts the warrior back in warrior poet with some cool skald war songs/war drummer powers to make it really interesting--warrior muse doesn't quite scratch that itch, remaining a full caster who can wield the sword but doesn't break from the full caster enough to make swinging it as effective as I'd like)

Skald class archetype that trades down to wave casting in exchange for better combat fun would actually get me to play Bards. I can't wait for the class archetype design space to really get played with like that.


I know the shaman class from legendary games has a medium class path they can pursue.

Liberty's Edge

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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I know I already suggested Wis when I was mentioning pick-a-list, but I want to throw my full support behind having another Wis-based class out there. I don't care what people say about it being so difficult to balance around having a useful primary stat (tbh this talk kind of bewilders me) but I really want another class that can synergize off Wis.

It is a matter of SAD.

WIS is one of the 3 saves stats.
And it is the only casting stat that is also a save stat.
And it is the stat for your Perception (and Sense Motive) and (usually) Initiative.
And it is the stat for Medicine.

Most builds are already really pushed to boost WIS, even at the expense of other stats that are important to their role.

A WIS-caster will naturally have it at its max possible level. With all the benefits above.

Cleric are somewhat balanced by the Divine list being weaker / more specialized than others.

Druids are considered a strong class.

Another WIS-caster will need real fine-tuning on the balance issues.


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I just don't want a medium to be too strong or too weak, too versatile or too narrowly focused, too interesting or too boring.

;)


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I don't think the summoner and the medium have really anything to do with each other.

The summoner contacts/coalesces a specific concept for a thing that is not real and provides a conduit through which it can become real.

The medium contacts real, actual things that linger from the past and allows them to indirectly affect the world through access to the medium's body.

The summoner interacts with "my imaginary friend from when I was 4", the Medium interacts with "Legendary General Tactillius the indefatigable". The former is a big pink dragon that gives hugs and breathes bubbles, the later is a brilliant tactical mind who drives you to show no mercy to your enemies.

Saying they're the same is kind of like saying the bard and the sorcerer are the same.


I've said it elsewhere, but I can see a convergence between Shaman and Medium. More flexible theming is what I would want. Animism and/or Spiritualism.


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Albatoonoe wrote:
I've said it elsewhere, but I can see a convergence between Shaman and Medium. More flexible theming is what I would want. Animism and/or Spiritualism.

I believe Michael Sayre has said he wants to see the Shaman heavily reworked to be more reflective of real-world animist beliefs, which might drag it further from the Medium’s role.

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