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I got mixed up... They didn't rewrite feats, but they really shut down just about every opportunity to use Vital Strike in conjunction with other feats, yet I could have sworn they had to clarify that the difference about an attack action and a standard action...
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Clarifications, absolutely. But not because they had changed anything, but rather because Vital Strike never worked with just about anything else to begin with.
The underlying concept (of active and conditional/triggered abilities) isn't really that complicated, and I'm very sure most of the people asking about potential VS interactions approach the rules from a wishful thinking perspective and not from a neutral perspective looking for the most likely interpretation. But that doesn't change that the stuff is utterly terribly written, and they really should have made a specific term for the attack action (like they did in PF2).
The standard 'attack action' is never called that in the "actions in combat" section. Indeed, the words "attack action" (outside of "full-attack action") don't appear in that section at all. The next mention of that term is seventeen (in letters: 17) pages later! Under "special attacks", four sections after "actions in combat".
The only time those words do appear is in the term "full-attack action", which is not the attack action. And because that's not confusing enough, the word attack is used in the magic section as any directly offensive action in combat.
So, we got actions that are attacks but not the attack action. Then we have an action that has 'attack and 'action' in it's name but is still not the attack action. And then we have the actual 'attack action', except it's not called that. No wonder people are confused!
They also could have simply made Vital Strike an active ability, and removed 90% of the questions. Add in a special text for Greater Weapon of the Chosen and all would be good.
@VoodistMonk: Looks like it was productive. I don't know what you're trying to archieve with your attempts to stifle constructive and civilized discussion.
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Vital strike probably could have been worded as applying to any attack made as part of a standard action. But it’s still not a “worst” feat. It has a niche use and doesn’t break the builds using that niche.
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The real problem with Vital Strike is that it's entirely dependent on swinging a big weapon. So it's really for Enlarged Impact Butchering Axes or shapechanging druids. Otherwise it's junk. So I house-ruled it to +BAB damage and eliminated the Improved and Greater versions.
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The real problem with Vital Strike is that it's entirely dependent on swinging a big weapon. So it's really for Enlarged Impact Butchering Axes or shapechanging druids. Otherwise it's junk. So I house-ruled it to +BAB damage and eliminated the Improved and Greater versions.Interesting. How do you deal with crits multiplying damage if it is a straight +damage bonus and not additional dice?
I double that too. It's not going to make a huge difference, after all: typically 10% extra. Or 30% for a keen scimitar, I guess. But I double precision damage like Sneak Attack too; martials are entitled to nice things as well.
How does devastating strike work in conjunction with your house rule?
Ban it; it's junk and has the same basic problem as VS (dependent on number of weapon dice, so a 2d4 falchion benefits more than a d12 greataxe).
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Since this is General Discussion, and not a rules subforum, here is the thing about Vital Strike that's always bugged me. WHY does it work like it does? I thought the whole point was to kind of make you suck less when you can't Full Attack. What in the name of the Divines is wrong with letting you use it on a Charge or Spring Attack anyways? Yeah, some one could optimize and break it.
But are most players really doing that? I was in a game where a sword and board Fighter was looking at Vital Strike, and it would have given him an extra whole d8 damage! Oh no, the horror!
Anyways, because I like to harp about it a lot, my choice for worst Feat: Divine Protection. When the Advanced Class Guide came out, this was exactly what I was looking for to shore up my battle Oracle's flagging saves.
Then, as it happened, the exact same level I qualified to get it, it was nerfed into the ground because "PFS Oracles have 30 Charisma".
Well I sure didn't have 30 Charisma! And instead of capping the Feat, or ensuring it could only be taken by (what I assume was) the target audience, ie, Clerics who only have a little Cha to be good at Channel Energy, they said, you know what? Let's make this Feat WORTHLESS for those characters, by making it a 1/day ability that uses up your immediate/swift action!
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Or if the character is super powerful, use kobolds with traps in tunnels.
/.../
(But really, Tucker's kobalds with levels of Rouge in tunnels, that works every time)
I'm a bit late to the party, but this seems like a very dated concept. You will definitely stop a low level party in their tracks if you create a meatgrinder inhabited by dozens of kobolds with rogue levels that get cheap shots on the party, but stronger characters aren't that impressed.
A simple Invisibility Sphere would ruin most of the kobold's tactics.
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Or if the character is super powerful, use kobolds with traps in tunnels.
/.../
(But really, Tucker's kobalds with levels of Rouge in tunnels, that works every time)
I'm a bit late to the party, but this seems like a very dated concept. You will definitely stop a low level party in their tracks if you create a meatgrinder inhabited by dozens of kobolds with rogue levels that get cheap shots on the party, but stronger characters aren't that impressed.
A simple Invisibility Sphere would ruin most of the kobold's tactics.
It's just a recurring argument against any issues with balance - granted, less frequent here because forums tend to be populated by more invested (and knowledgeable) people, but ask on the Facebook PF group how to challenge an optimized high level party and somebody will seriously suggest Tucker's kabolds with traps in tunnels.
A lot of people extrapolate their experiences from early D&D eds on Pathfinder, or simply are completely unaware just how powerful at med-to-high level PF1 party is and assume that low-level solutions keep being relevant at higher levels.
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I'm a bit late to the party, but this seems like a very dated concept. You will definitely stop a low level party in their tracks if you create a meatgrinder inhabited by dozens of kobolds with rogue levels that get cheap shots on the party, but stronger characters aren't that impressed.
A simple Invisibility Sphere would ruin most of the kobold's tactics.
If the Kobold Kommandos no longer suffice, unleash the Succubus Speznaz!
Give some hero levels in Mysterious strangers and Mosin Nagants, and snipe away at the party from extreme range while having CHA to damage on ranged attacks!
The heroes have a base? Do an aerial orbital overflight (Succubi can literaly fly to the moon, no oxygen required) and discover the fun one can have with dropping trees, at 200gold a tree bomb for the feather token, from several kilometers!
Have I mentioned the fun one can have with ethereal jaunt, pretty good stealth and hand grenades? And this is before exploiting naive/horny player characters! Call 0-900 NOCTICULA now and really enlighten your DMing, your players may hate you but you will love it!
This is a paid advertisement and will totally not cost your soul.
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I double that too. It's not going to make a huge difference, after all: typically 10% extra. Or 30% for a keen scimitar, I guess. But I double precision damage like Sneak Attack too; martials are entitled to nice things as well.
This is one of my house rules as well, Vital Strike is multiplied on crits and works with Sneak Attack. Additionally, Un-Rogues get Vital Strike at level 6 for free without needing to meet the pre-reqs, and the upgrades at the appropriate level as well.
Sneak Attack doesn't multiply on crit because that would be a bit much, especially with the number of Rogues that show up in adventure paths, but Rogues being able to acrobatics into position for a flank and still get off their big stab feels really good.
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This is one of my house rules as well, Vital Strike is multiplied on crits and works with Sneak Attack.What do you mean by "Vital Strike [...] works with Sneak Attack"? Is there some reason I have missed to think it wouldn't?
_
glass.
I believe he means his house rule is for vital strike to also double sneak attack damage.
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Yes, as a house rule Vital Strike multiplies sneak by a similar amount to the rest of the rolled damage. You still lose out on total damage dealt compared to a full attack, because the static damage from Enhancement/Ability Modifier isn't multiplied, but it ends up being a worthwhile action and eases up on the "Get Pounce or Fall X Tiers" problem martials have.
To be clear though, UnRogues in my campaigns are also d10 full BAB characters with "good" growth on Will saves. So they're better off than normal already. PC Classes without spellcasting should have full BAB growth, its absurd that some don't.
I had some plans to rework Swashbuckler entirely and make them especially adept at Vital Striking, but they're stalled behind Cavalier and Ninja who are next on my rework list after I recently finished Gunslinger.
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Vital strike probably could have been worded as applying to any attack made as part of a standard action. But it’s still not a “worst” feat. It has a niche use and doesn’t break the builds using that niche.
I wouldn't call Vital Strike a "good" feat either when you cannot apply that feat to all possible attack rolls.
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Where does it say "you cannot use that feat during standard actions" ? You can use the attack action as a standard action after a move action. You can technically make a Vital Strike after moving 30 feet, but not when charging or spring attacking, because reasons...
THAT's the main problem.
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Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah- You lose 3 HP so you can explode when you die (and thereby prevent folks from raising you in the traditional way.) You can also just choose to die as an immediate action, if you want.Holy crap, though... the Mask of the Forgotten Pharoah that goes along with that little cult...
AoN wrote:
If worn by an evil character, the mask enhances the wearer’s control over undead, doubling the number of undead the wearer may control with animate dead, control undead, the Command Undead feat, and similar effects. Additionally, the wearer can cast animate dead once per day as a spell-like ability.Ryze Kuja, have seen this freaking mask?!?! Give it to your Mystic Theurge necromancer build. Lol.
My Kobold Sorcerer ended up getting that Mask, Neutral Evil. :3 was quite fun to help the party with by making zombie Camels to cross the desert. No need for water or food for the undead camels. It was pretty fun. Shame the game master gave up running the AP I think either book 3 or 4 when I ended up slaying the Lamia snake lady.
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Combat reflexes is a great feat. Being able to make attacks of opportunity while flat footed is worth a feat by itself. Getting some extra attacks of opportunity is just gravy.
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Your foes not getting within your reach (Or not gambling that you have the Reflexes and moving around your reach) is still not zero value. Having a larger zone of control is quite strong and can protect your allies.
Sure, a GM can get around that too, but a GM being a dick can make any feat suck. Thats part of why having a good GM is worth irl gold.
Anyway, I'd like to nominate Shadow Gambit as another feat that just blows massive chunks. You can end your Illusion spells early to deal damage and provide a save/attack roll as normal. However, the damage is only 1d6 per SPELL LEVEL, so you can at most spend 2 rounds to set up a 9th level illusion and then end it early with a bonus saving throw for 9d6 points of damage.
It also pretty much prevents any really creative "Well, Major Images can create thermal illusions so I have my dragon breath fire for damage" as you now have rules for doing something like that, but it costs a feat and sucks both in the action economy and damage department.
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I've played a reach using Abyssal Bloodrager at a high enough level to auto-cast an additional bloodrager spell.
Its glorious. Anything that isn't flying is screwed.
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Where does it say "you cannot use that feat during standard actions" ?
Where does it say in the Whirlwind Attack description that "you cannot use that feat during standard actions"?
"When you do X, stuff happens" means stuff only happens when you do X, not when you do Y or Z. That's not a rule issue, that's a basic English language issue. Also, the phrase "the attack action" cannot mean "any of a number of different actions that include an attack", as that would be gramatically wrong.
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Where does it say "you cannot use that feat during standard actions" ?Where does it say in the Whirlwind Attack description that "you cannot use that feat during standard actions"?
"When you do X, stuff happens" means stuff only happens when you do X, not when you do Y or Z. That's not a rule issue, that's a basic English language issue. Also, the phrase "the attack action" cannot mean "any of a number of different actions that include an attack", as that would be gramatically wrong.
Because you can take the attack action during a standard action, that's what's confusing.
If you're entitled to an attack roll during a standard action, THAT should count as an attack action, because you attack.
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@Nicos
Wow. That is offensively bad. And the feat has zero relevancy to the book itself (Dungeoneer's Handbook has what to do with dressing up for social situations, exactly?) so it's a waste of words in every sense.
This trait is multiple times better than the feat. That's a low bar.
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Your foes not getting within your reach (Or not gambling that you have the Reflexes and moving around your reach) is still not zero value. Having a larger zone of control is quite strong and can protect your allies.
Sure, a GM can get around that too, but a GM being a dick can make any feat suck. Thats part of why having a good GM is worth irl gold.
Anyway, I'd like to nominate Shadow Gambit as another feat that just blows massive chunks. You can end your Illusion spells early to deal damage and provide a save/attack roll as normal. However, the damage is only 1d6 per SPELL LEVEL, so you can at most spend 2 rounds to set up a 9th level illusion and then end it early with a bonus saving throw for 9d6 points of damage.
It also pretty much prevents any really creative "Well, Major Images can create thermal illusions so I have my dragon breath fire for damage" as you now have rules for doing something like that, but it costs a feat and sucks both in the action economy and damage department.
i would like to respectfully disagree.
i find that shadow gambit is an amazing feat, when used right. (so you can stock up on ammo)
specifically when used with spells that have permanent duration.
the fact you can tailor the attack mode and saves to the enemies you strike down AND that doing so is not part of any spell casting that can be related back to you helped me make a very nasty contract killer (code name: 'Hitchcock') that uses flocks of magical flying ravens that fly about (in the spell's long range and such. remember you can move the image) to bombard his target without anyone able to point him as the assassin.
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Ostentatious Display
An actual bad feat. Way too many people in this thread are just posting niche feats or complaining about the mechanics of Pathfinder in general.
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Uh, the spell ends when you use Shadow Gambit. So even if the Illusion were permanent, you only get one "shot" per illusion and each shot is a standard action.
The main spell that your plan would even work with is Permanent Image, which is a 6th level spell. Each image requires a separate move action to command into position and the target needs to be adjacent to an Image to activate. Additionally, you need line of sight.
This is basically an NPC only tactic that is vaguely useful for defending a location/setting an ambush. Its...fine, but I really dislike that it provides rules for something that could have been left to GM discretion.
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Most teamwork feats are pretty weak, the ones that say “if you are using a bow and your ally who also has this feat is in melee then you get a small bonus to ranged combat” are particularly harsh for the melee character.
Some of these can be redeemed by an Inquisitor who doesn’t need the ally to have the feat, but as written a lot feel like they were cut down to only be usable in very limited circumstances (Barrage of Styles anyone?) in case people actually used them to, shock horror, make an effective team.
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Pack Flanking is, in my opinion, a class feature of the Hunter. Between Pack Flanking and Outflank, the Hunter is effectively a 19 BAB class.
But yeah, most of the Teamwork feats are terrible.
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A lot of feats in Ultimate Intrigue are bad and they have ridiculous requirements to boot.
I agree, most teamwork feats are terrible, especially for players, though for NPCs they can be effective.
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Teamwork feats still have their niche though. Like they are great for inquisitors or cavaliers.
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Teamwork feats work best when you have 3+ people using them, and for PC groups, that's usually only 2 people. If you want to make a group based on Teamwork feats, I'd suggest each PC in your party take Animal Ally, and then give each of the Animal Allies Outflank and Seize the Moment, and any Martial PC's also take Outflank/StM, and get Crit-fishiest weapons as possible. So now you have 2 PC's and 3, 4, or 5 Animal Allies all with Outflank/StM - your frontline will turn into a blender.
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Combat Expertise. There's already an option to fight defensively, why do we need a different action to trade accuracy for AC? Not to mention that it's a prerequisite for like, half the combat feats in the game for some reason.
I know I'm late to the party, but I've wctually decided I like Combat Expertise. The thing that I was missing is that you can fight defenwively and use Combat Expertise at the same time.
I'm playing a 13th level Bloodrager, and I can take a -7 to hit for +6 AC by using both options at once . Now a -7 to hit sounds bad, but +6AC is the same bonus I'd get for going full defence. So this allows me to go full defence while still attacking and still allowing AoOs.
Granted this is easier for me than most characters because: A) I hit like a truck, so even if I need a 16+ to hit enemies will still reconsider proviking AoOs, and B) I have a Bard in the party who's usually giving me +7 to hit, effectively negating the penalty.
However I still think Combat Expertise is a better feat than people give it credit for. If you're playing a front-liner then sometimes your job isn't to deal damage, sometimes you just have to negate enemy options while your allies do the killing. If I can negate 30% of my enemies' attacks while only costing 25% of my teams actions then that's a win. Except that's what I'd be doing with Full Defence, if I use Combat Expertise I'm still getting my attacks off, so I'm really only costing my team ~10% of our actions.
Anyway I know most people still won't use it, and I know it's a niche feat, but I really don't think it's anywhere near the worst feat in the game.
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Combat expertise is not an issue on its own. The real problem is that it is a prerequisite for a LOT of feats that have nothing to with trading accuracy for defence.
That doesn’t make combat expertise bad though. That’s just a fault in those other feats
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Combat expertise is not an issue on its own. The real problem is that it is a prerequisite for a LOT of feats that have nothing to with trading accuracy for defence.
That I fully agree with.
EDIT:
That doesn’t make combat expertise bad though. That’s just a fault in those other feats
That too.
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so, i'v noticed this the first time i read the feat, but forgot about it until now.
waiting 15 levels to gain the Elemental Jaunt feat might seem worthwhile except...the feat allow one to plainshift to their race's so called 'home plain' but it never give any ability to get back to the prime material plain (or any other plain ether).
that mean that if you can't get a method to return this is a one-way trip AND unless you have a different method to leave that plain, after you use it the feat has no more benefit to you as you can't plain shift into the plain your at.. so this can very well turn into a one use feat...
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By 15th level you should have, if you want them, ways of travelling the planes.
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By 15th level you should have, if you want them, ways of travelling the planes.
then you should hardy waste a valuable asset such as a feat for it, don't you?
point is, if you can't travel to others plains without the feat, it's a one use feat, if you can then it's a waste to take it.
only sense i see is if you have more then one in the party that take said feat and each plain shift to a different plain. AND the party doesn't really intend on going back to the prime plain any time soon nor does the party have any other reliable mean to plainshift. (such a a high enough caster)
all in all as you said, by level 15 there should be other, better, means to plain shift. (and if not, you better off staying 'home')
and the only other Genie-kin who might have a long mileage out of something like this, a Suli, is not even in the races allowed to take it.
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Well you do get a better one actually, since you have permanent Planar Adaption on you while on the Plane. Definitely not a “one use” Feat.
(Also Plane Shift is learnt the earliest at 13th so it’s not too much later for a feat to give it to you, especially for a non-caster).