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As I have mentioned before, when I play a character it is often a Witch character. It is my go-to class for spellcasting character concepts. I like the high number of trained skills. I like the flexibility of the spellcasting. I like the powerful focus spells. The combat power is a bit lacking as a tradeoff, and I can respect that. But there are already other threads for discussing that.
I also recognize that there are some mechanical problems with the Witch class that I really think should be fixed with official errata.
In order from most important to least:
Familiar actions when not in combat
For the love of the entire pantheon, please clarify the action economy of minion characters during exploration and downtime modes of play. I don't even care what the ruling is. If I don't like it personally, I will houserule it to be what I want for games that I run.
The problem is that the uncertainty is causing people to be wary of creating characters that have a familiar as part of their character's identity and power. We don't know what to expect when the time comes to actually play the character with other players. Are the abilities that I have planned on using actually going to work? Or is it just going to cause contention with the other players at the table? Am I going to feel that my familiar feat choices are dead feats that need retraining at best and maybe just scrap the character entirely (especially for Witch characters that can't just retrain a feat to drop having a familiar entirely)? Is some other player at the table going to feel jealous that I am effectively playing two characters while not in combat?
No ruling is going to make everyone happy. But we do need an official ruling on this.
Basic Lesson
I am not aware of any other class feat of any class at any level that is so single-choice as Witch level 2 taking Basic Lesson, and that includes the Alchemist's Powerful Alchemy feat that was given errata to make it a class feature instead of a feat. No other Witch class feat at level 2 even comes close. Not even dedication feats for an archetype compete. Every Witch character that I have ever even sketched out on paper takes Basic Lesson at level 2. Even ones that take an archetype delay the archetype by two levels in order to take Basic Lesson at level 2.
So give the Witch the same treatment as the Alchemist. In order to 'free up more feats' that are an actual choice at level 2, make Basic Lesson a class feature. Unlike the Alchemist Powerful Alchemy, Basic Lesson also needs to be available to the Witch Archetype though. Personally I am fine either way for having the Basic Lesson archetype feat restore the missing familiar ability or not.
Witch Archetype familiar abilities
Speaking of the Witch Archetype and its familiar, please clarify the number of familiar abilities a Witch Archetype familiar has. It states that it 'has one less familiar ability than normal'. But is that one less than a normal Witch familiar (so 2 ability slots at level 1, 3 at level 6, 4 at level 12 and so on), or is it one less than a standard familiar (so 1 ability slot permanently)?
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These are the problems with the Witch class that I see that can and should be corrected with errata. I'm sure that this thread is going to fill up with people requesting a complete rewrite of the class. I don't think the class actually needs that. I'm sure that there are also going to be making suggestions of new things to add to the class. I may even participate in that.
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My thoughts and tradeoff analysis on minion actions during exploration mode:
Commands last 6 seconds
Requiring commands every 6 seconds like in encounter mode is crippling. It means that strict RAW that the only exploration activity that a character with a minion can use is 'command minion'. Doing anything else at the same time would be a custom activity that causes exhaustion.
Commands last 1 minute
Having commands last 1 minute during exploration mode seems to be the most balanced. It allows exploration activities like Avoid Notice or Climb that don't have a specified duration. It also allows minions to do exploration activities that last longer as long as the minion's master is watching over them.
Having to watch over and re-command the minion every minute may prevent the minion's master from doing any exploration activities on their own. Especially ones that require concentration.
Commands last 10 minutes / Commands last until the task is completed
This option allows minion characters to do any of the exploration activities that take 10 minutes, such as Treat Wounds. This effectively gives the player with a minion character an entire second character during exploration mode.
Different command lengths for different minions
Having unified rules is great. It may be too complicated for minion rules since the types of minion characters available is very diverse.
I think it is possible to have unified minion rules and have different lengths of commands though. Tie the length of the command duration to the training level of the minion. If a minion is trained in the skill being used for the exploration activity, then the command lasts 10 minutes. If they are not trained in the skill, then the command lasts 1 minute. This will prevent Animal Companion minions from becoming too powerful outside of combat, and non-invested familiars as well. But for players that want to have a more powerful familiar minion, it allows the Skilled familiar ability to unlock additional exploration activities that the familiar can use. Requiring the Toolbearer ability for exploration activities that require tools (repairing items, picking locks, and such) also feels balanced.
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As I have mentioned before, when I play a character it is often a Witch character. It is my go-to class for spellcasting character concepts. I like the high number of trained skills. I like the flexibility of the spellcasting. I like the powerful focus spells. The combat power is a bit lacking as a tradeoff, and I can respect that. But there are already other threads for discussing that.
I also recognize that there are some mechanical problems with the Witch class that I really think should be fixed with official errata.
In order from most important to least:
Familiar actions when not in combat
For the love of the entire pantheon, please clarify the action economy of minion characters during exploration and downtime modes of play. I don't even care what the ruling is. If I don't like it personally, I will houserule it to be what I want for games that I run.The problem is that the uncertainty is causing people to be wary of creating characters that have a familiar as part of their character's identity and power. We don't know what to expect when the time comes to actually play the character with other players. Are the abilities that I have planned on using actually going to work? Or is it just going to cause contention with the other players at the table? Am I going to feel that my familiar feat choices are dead feats that need retraining at best and maybe just scrap the character entirely (especially for Witch characters that can't just retrain a feat to drop having a familiar entirely)? Is some other player at the table going to feel jealous that I am effectively playing two characters while not in combat?
No ruling is going to make everyone happy. But we do need an official ruling on this.
Basic Lesson
I am not aware of any other class feat of any class at any level that is so single-choice as Witch level 2 taking Basic Lesson, and that includes the Alchemist's Powerful Alchemy feat that was given errata to make it a class feature instead of a feat. No other Witch class...
I don't feel the same with basic Lesson mostly because i find reach spell more useful most of the times. Also one spell + focus spell is not that strong in my opnion.
If it does not say the usual familiar is a regular one that has two abilities. Witch, wizard special familiars are the exception the regular familiar is 2 abilities.
Familiar out of combat... I am almost sure only eidolons can take actions during exploration. But that one does need a better clarification if not an expansion.
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I started running non combat familiar actions as 10 minutes, but the longer I've ran it, the longer I noticed that it's definately too powerful for a 1st level feat. Going forward, I'll probably say at my table, commands last a minute, so in exploration, they can accomplish a minor thing, or they can do a full tactic if their master uses theirs to command or ortherwise concentrate on directing the familiar. Familiars with accompanist or partner in crime can still provide their bonus since those abilities explicitly make they automatically provide their aid
As far as witch dedication, the familiar 100% does not get the witch bonus abilities; the bonus abilities are very clearly a seperate class feature.
I don't feel the same with basic Lesson mostly because i find reach spell more useful most of the times. Also one spell + focus spell is not that strong in my opnion.
Hmm... That's interesting.
What do you use your focus point for?
I ask because the focus spells is what I consider the compensation for the 6-HP, no armor, 3 spell slot chassis. Other 6-HP, no armor classes get 4 spell slots. Other 3 slot casters get 8-HP and at least light armor. Witch gets their choice of a good selection of powerful focus spells.
The opportunity of picking up an off-tradition spell slot spell is another nice bonus.
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I don't feel the same with basic Lesson mostly because i find reach spell more useful most of the times. Also one spell + focus spell is not that strong in my opnion.Hmm... That's interesting.
What do you use your focus point for?
I ask because the focus spells is what I consider the compensation for the 6-HP, no armor, 3 spell slot chassis. Other 6-HP, no armor classes get 4 spell slots. Other 3 slot casters get 8-HP and at least light armor. Witch gets their choice of a good selection of powerful focus spells.
The opportunity of picking up an off-tradition spell slot spell is another nice bonus.
Most times i play with free arquetype so normally i do get one from those. But even when i do not most spells and focus spells of the witch aren't that great.
I mean elemental betrayal and Cackle(that does not even come from lessons for some reason) are the only ones i find good. The rest aren't exactly something i would get often mostly for flavor i mean.
I started running non combat familiar actions as 10 minutes, but the longer I've ran it, the longer I noticed that it's definately too powerful for a 1st level feat. Going forward, I'll probably say at my table, commands last a minute, so in exploration, they can accomplish a minor thing, or they can do a full tactic if their master uses theirs to command or ortherwise concentrate on directing the familiar. Familiars with accompanist or partner in crime can still provide their bonus since those abilities explicitly make they automatically provide their aid
Yeah, that has been my conclusion also after talking this out with a bunch of people here on these forums (including graystone ;-) I do still listen even if I disagree vehemently).
As far as witch dedication, the familiar 100% does not get the witch bonus abilities; the bonus abilities are very clearly a seperate class feature.
The extra familiar abilities are defined in the first paragraph of the Witch class feature named 'Familiar', so I don't see how this is 'very clearly' separate from the Witch's Familiar class feature.
If there was a separate archetype feat to give the full Witch Familiar ability progression, that would also clearly be a separate ability. But that archetype feat doesn't exist either.
I started running non combat familiar actions as 10 minutes, but the longer I've ran it, the longer I noticed that it's definately too powerful for a 1st level feat. Going forward, I'll probably say at my table, commands last a minute, so in exploration, they can accomplish a minor thing, or they can do a full tactic if their master uses theirs to command or ortherwise concentrate on directing the familiar. Familiars with accompanist or partner in crime can still provide their bonus since those abilities explicitly make they automatically provide their aidYeah, that has been my conclusion also after talking this out with a bunch of people here on these forums (including graystone ;-) I do still listen even if I disagree vehemently).
As far as witch dedication, the familiar 100% does not get the witch bonus abilities; the bonus abilities are very clearly a seperate class feature.The extra familiar abilities are defined in the first paragraph of the Witch class feature named 'Familiar', so I don't see how this is 'very clearly' separate from the Witch's Familiar class feature.
If there was a separate archetype feat to give the full Witch Familiar ability progression, that would also clearly be a separate ability. But that archetype feat doesn't exist either.
Because the witch familiar is a familar for a witch. The familiar follows the default abilities of familiar defined here:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Familiars.aspxBasically unless it explicitly says it's an exception it is not. I do think they should define (DEFAULT FAMILIAR) to make it easier but there's a lot more things that need an errata first haha.
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It doesn't actually reference the witch's familiar class feature, is says "you gain a familiar", which by default get two abilities, with extra abilities.
I can understand a bit of confusion, but why in the world would witch dedication provide a better familiar in the long run as well as a cantrip and a skill training than any other familiar feat. It definately falls under "too good to be true".
Most times i play with free arquetype so normally i do get one from those. But even when i do not most spells and focus spells of the witch aren't that great.
I mean elemental betrayal and Cackle(that does not even come from lessons for some reason) are the only ones i find good. The rest aren't exactly something i would get often mostly for flavor i mean.
Life Boost is one of the best healing options in the game. Only Treat Wounds beats it hands down, and that only after getting Expert proficiency and picking up Continual Recovery (plus Battle Medicine in order to use it in combat at all). Life Boost slightly edges out Hymn of Healing because it doesn't have to be sustained, so using Life Boost during combat is actually useful. Goodberry usually does a bit more healing, but is too action intensive to be used in combat. Lay on Hands is better in combat because it is immediate, but it does less healing. And of course, spell slot healing costs spell slots - though it does do a ton more healing than any other of these options.
Needle of Vengeance is practically guaranteed damage. The Will save when the spell is first cast chooses between 0, 1, 2, or 4 points of damage per spell level. Then every hostile action that the target takes against the specified target - whether it is a successful action or not - whether it is even a damaging hostile action or not - deals that amount of damage with no save. Ouch.
And Elemental Betrayal rounds out my top three picks for Basic Lesson hexes. It looks kinda similar to applying a damage weakness, but it is actually a bit different. So it also stacks with any damage weakness that the target already has.
Blood Ward does get honorable mention, but it is behind the others by a noticeable amount on my ratings. Lacking any Humanoid trait options to protect against makes it not useful in a lot of campaigns.
It doesn't actually reference the witch's familiar class feature, is says "you gain a familiar", which by default get two abilities, with extra abilities.
I can understand a bit of confusion, but why in the world would witch dedication provide a better familiar in the long run as well as a cantrip and a skill training than any other familiar feat. It definately falls under "too good to be true".
Yeah, that is why it only hit 3rd in my hit list.
Although if you are taking Witch dedication for the familiar ur doin it rong.
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I'm not sure if it's really errata material but point 2 is the big one for me. I really hate that Witches basically don't get a focus spell at level 1 and have to buy it with their second level feat. Especially when those options are so core to their identity. It's one of their most character-defining options too.
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Oh! Another thread complains about witch.
Leaving questions about the family aside once they are greater than a witch exclusive problem.
I keep the same position I have from all other threads about the wiches. The entire class need a re-work not just only patches. And I don't expect anything like that so soon or even out for PF2 (I expect when we reach PF3 we receive a better one). Probably what we might expect is a new book with more witches feats and patrons.
One of these days a player asked me. "Can I do a druid and call myself as witch?" Off course I allowed. But this come back to my how the class is so subpar. Is preferable for many player take a wizard/druid/cleric and use the witch's flavor concept over it than do a real witch class.
Life Boost is one of the best healing options in the game. Only Treat Wounds beats it hands down, and that only after getting Expert proficiency and picking up Continual Recovery (plus Battle Medicine in order to use it in combat at all). Life Boost slightly edges out Hymn of Healing because it doesn't have to be sustained, so using Life Boost during combat is actually useful. Goodberry usually does a bit more healing, but is too action intensive to be used in combat. Lay on Hands is better in combat because it is immediate, but it does less healing. And of course, spell slot healing costs spell slots - though it does do a ton more healing than any other of these options.Most times i play with free arquetype so normally i do get one from those. But even when i do not most spells and focus spells of the witch aren't that great.
I mean elemental betrayal and Cackle(that does not even come from lessons for some reason) are the only ones i find good. The rest aren't exactly something i would get often mostly for flavor i mean.
Treat wounds is a skill feat... Life boost takes too long to heal any meaningful amount(healing 8*level in 4 turns is just not good.) and is prone to making your ally die, due to not removing the wounded condition(hit fall down) stand up with 2-20 hp fall down with a single hit with wounded and a crit, stand up with 2-20 and then die to a critical...
Its just the worst form o healing IMO. Out of combat is decent but most times you can rely on medicine and skill feats that are much much cheaper than a class feat.
Needle of Vengeance is practically guaranteed damage. The Will save when the spell is first cast chooses between 0, 1, 2, or 4 points of damage per spell level. Then every hostile action that the target takes against the specified target - whether it is a successful action or not - whether it is even a damaging hostile action or not - deals that amount of damage with no save. Ouch.And Elemental Betrayal rounds out my top three picks for Basic Lesson hexes. It looks kinda similar to applying a damage weakness, but it is actually a bit different. So it also stacks with any damage weakness that the target already has.
Blood Ward does get honorable mention, but it is behind the others by a noticeable amount on my ratings. Lacking any Humanoid trait options to protect against makes it not useful in a lot of campaigns.
Well... You could instead sustain a better spell IMO (flaming sphere or spiritual weapon). Using an action per turn to sustain for a chance to deal damage when the bad guy attacks the target... When he can well simply exchange the target he is hitting.
Elemental betrayal is insanely good so i won't argue with that. It needs allies to be useful but damn good when allies work together.
Blood ward is also sustained... You can instead use well shield or protection...
Oh! Another thread complains about witch.
Leaving questions about the family aside once they are greater than a witch exclusive problem.
I keep the same position I have from all other threads about the wiches. The entire class need a re-work not just only patches. And I don't expect anything like that so soon or even out for PF2 (I expect when we reach PF3 we receive a better one). Probably what we might expect is a new book with more witches feats and patrons.
One of these days a player asked me. "Can I do a druid and call myself as witch?" Off course I allowed. But this come back to my how the class is so subpar. Is preferable for many player take a wizard/druid/cleric and use the witch's flavor concept over it than do a real witch class.
I always found the wizard the worst of the bunch. My biggest issue with the witch is that the class do not get the feat that gives damage when you cast a spell and then hit with a melee strike, and dangerous sorcery...
Treat wounds is a skill feat... Life boost takes too long to heal any meaningful amount(healing 8*level in 4 turns is just not good.) and is prone to making your ally die, due to not removing the wounded condition(hit fall down) stand up with 2-20 hp fall down with a single hit with wounded and a crit, stand up with 2-20 and then die to a critical...
Its just the worst form o healing IMO. Out of combat is decent but most times you can rely on medicine and skill feats that are much much cheaper than a class feat.
I think life boost should not be considered on its own, compared to a spike healing effect.
Let's consider the first round of combat:
- The witch casts Life boost on a character within 30 feet which has from 60 to 73 hp.
- Since it costs 1 action, the witch casts also electric arc or ray of frost ( or a similar offensive cantrip ).The target of life boost would suffer damage during the rounds, eventually reaching 0 hp. The role of life boost is to delay the dying condition, and also to bring the target up once again ( not sure if this could lead to a double turn, but even so I wouldn't admit it ).
It's like using a shield block to prevent some damage.
Round after round, these 6 damage you prevented may grant you to survive one extra hit.
That's a fair point. But in my experience most boss enemies tend to take you down in one or two turns. 4 turns is just too much for that amount of healing when something like lay on hands heal in a burst. Even in that situation i would rather have the shield cantrip and a reaction spell to save my ally and keep something like blood ward or even needle of vengeance(That i do consider bad) for a focus spell.
I guess i just hate the way this focus spell works and how much it heals for the amount of time it takes. You need to cast it and then only on your ally turn they get the healing it's just too delayed.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, Life Boost is not great during combat. Not gonna try and say it is. It does edge out Hymn of Healing because of not needing sustained. Still not a great in-combat healing option.
Out of combat - especially at level 2 - it is huge. At level 2 Treat Wounds is as likely to fail as it is to succeed, can only be done once per hour, and typically only heals the same amount as Life Boost does. A Witch can heal someone up to full after combat a lot faster than anyone using Treat Wounds can (except for a Rogue spending all their extra skill powers in Medicine).
Oh! Another thread complains about witch.
Leaving questions about the family aside once they are greater than a witch exclusive problem.
I keep the same position I have from all other threads about the wiches. The entire class need a re-work not just only patches. And I don't expect anything like that so soon or even out for PF2 (I expect when we reach PF3 we receive a better one). Probably what we might expect is a new book with more witches feats and patrons.
I am actually not that interested in rehashing all of the comparisons to other classes arguments. This is about fixing things causing problems with just the Witch class.
I'm actually running a bit of a risk of devolving into that by discussing comparisons between Life Boost and Treat Wounds.
No, I don't expect a complete rework of the class any time soon. Or ever. So fixing confusion and problems in the current design is a much more productive use of time to me.
Blood ward is also sustained... You can instead use well shield or protection...
Both of those alternatives are also good options.
Blood Ward stacks with Shield. Status bonus vs Circumstance bonus. So why not both?
Protection costs a spell slot. And you have to learn or guess the correct alignment (hopefully they aren't true Neutral). Though to be fair you do have to learn or guess the correct creature trait for Blood Ward. Also, Protection is only available to Divine or Occult Witches.
And yeah, Lesson of Protection is typically taken by Divine or Primal Witches in order to get access to Mage Armor off-tradition. Blood Ward isn't powerful enough on its own to choose it.
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I no longer believe that the witch can be fixed or adequately improved with these kinds of tweaks; in lieu of a major redesign, it just needs better options for some combination of cantrips, focus spells, feats, and exclusive familiar/master abilities. Consequently, I definitely agree that the clarifications should be added, but I'm not so certain about free basic lessons. I believe that the witch would be much better off with stronger hexes at a cost than poorer hexes for free. Deciding whether they should get a free basic lesson or not should be done as part of a larger process of re-evaluating the class rather than as an isolated step.
Blood ward is also sustained... You can instead use well shield or protection...Both of those alternatives are also good options.
Blood Ward stacks with Shield. Status bonus vs Circumstance bonus. So why not both?
Protection costs a spell slot. And you have to learn or guess the correct alignment (hopefully they aren't true Neutral). Though to be fair you do have to learn or guess the correct creature trait for Blood Ward. Also, Protection is only available to Divine or Occult Witches.
And yeah, Lesson of Protection is typically taken by Divine or Primal Witches in order to get access to Mage Armor off-tradition. Blood Ward isn't powerful enough on its own to choose it.
The more we talk the more i am convinced they aren't bad... But aren't great haha.
I always saw them as worse than they are but they are quite situational, all of them have uses. But i still don't seem them as important enough to be mandatory yet.
I am actually not that interested in rehashing all of the comparisons to other classes arguments. This is about fixing things causing problems with just the Witch class.
I'm actually running a bit of a risk of devolving into that by discussing comparisons between Life Boost and Treat Wounds.
No, I don't expect a complete rework of the class any time soon. Or ever. So fixing confusion and problems in the current design is a much more productive use of time to me.
I understand your point. But still even fixing the confusions and minor problems aren't enough to make the witch a competitive choice compared to other spell casters.
Unless the Paizo do a Shadow Signet like solution to improve a lot the some class mechanics. I don't think just fix familiar actions and add Basic Lesson as a class feature instead of a feat (that I admit will help a lot the class) aren't enough to make the class sufficient interesting and competitive to be considered a good class option for most players that are thinking in make a spellcaster but don't search specifically to be a witch or that cannot change another class flavor to be like a witch.
The familiar clarification will be useful for many classes not only the witch. I also think is interesting to be revised but it's affect them all so isn't a way to do the witch more interesting (remember for example that witch familiar is just like the wizard's familiar thesis but that also works like a spellbook, but now that we have specific grimoires for wizards that are better and isn't usable for witches having a familiar that works like a killable grimorie is more like a disvantage than ever :P)
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I don't think I really agree. The witch has some issues, but a lot of them can be addressed with baby steps. It's not fundamentally flawed in some of the ways the alchemist is/was... it's just weirdly behind the curve compared to other casters.
The more we talk the more i am convinced they aren't bad... But aren't great haha.
Half way there then, lol.
I always saw them as worse than they are but they are quite situational, all of them have uses. But i still don't seem them as important enough to be mandatory yet.
In comparison to other Witch options:
Cackle is actually really good - once I have something worth sustaining. So not a 2nd level feat. Either Human Natural Ambition or level 4 at the earliest.
Cauldron is questionable. It lets you craft potions at level 1 instead of needing to get expert crafting and Magical Crafting (level 3 at least). But you still have to pay the costs for those items. The upgrades are really nice, but those don't come online until much later. So again either Natural Ambition or higher level when needed to qualify for the upgrade feats.
Counterspell: Amusing to counterspell Heal. Niche use at best though.
Reach Spell can be good in some party compositions. Personally I wouldn't give up having a useful focus spell for it though.
Widen Spell even less so.
Wortwitch is forgettable. Flavor option for Human Witch only.
Cantrip Expansion is usually not needed. For archetype Witch characters this is good. For full Witch characters, 5 (or 6 with a familiar feat) cantrips are usually sufficient.
Conceal Spell can be really useful in certain types of campaigns (societal intrigue). Really weak otherwise.
Enhanced Familiar depends on how powerful the familiar is allowed to be. Even so, additional ability slots become less important the more slots you already have. Once you have the abilities you need, the remaining slots are not so useful.
Familiar's Language can be mildly useful for certain campaigns and GMs. Useless otherwise.
Dedications feats are not usually powerful enough on their own. So paying the 4th level class feat slot is also needed. So waiting until 6th level before being able to use my focus pool for anything seems really punishing. At least when actually playing through all of those levels. Starting the campaign at higher level than that wouldn't feel the sting as bad.
Though if the dedication is also giving you a focus spell, that might not be so bad. The only one I can think of that does that at level 2 is Blessed One - which seems a bit redundant with Life Boost. Some give a focus spell at 4th level though.
And then there is Basic Lesson. A useful focus spell, another focus point, and maybe access to an off-list spell as well.
So is it mandatory? No. Not really. It is overpoweringly strong compared to other level 2 feat options though.
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For anyone interested in additional Familiar rules (including how to handle them out of combat and "autonomy" rules for GMs that aren't sure how/when to run things), feel free to check out my Fabled Familiars ruleset. So far it's testing well with the playtesters (more feedback always appreciated!).
Might help some of you that are looking for much-needed support (that's why I wrote them in the first place, every game I've run so far has had at least 1 familiar).
/endshamelessplug
Obviously, I agree with OP in that they feel in need of structure. The shadow familiar opened up a few new ideas in the familiar space, so that was at least somewhat appreciated.
The more we talk the more i am convinced they aren't bad... But aren't great haha.Half way there then, lol.
I always saw them as worse than they are but they are quite situational, all of them have uses. But i still don't seem them as important enough to be mandatory yet.In comparison to other Witch options:
Cackle is actually really good - once I have something worth sustaining. So not a 2nd level feat. Either Human Natural Ambition or level 4 at the earliest.
Cauldron is questionable. It lets you craft potions at level 1 instead of needing to get expert crafting and Magical Crafting (level 3 at least). But you still have to pay the costs for those items. The upgrades are really nice, but those don't come online until much later. So again either Natural Ambition or higher level when needed to qualify for the upgrade feats.
Counterspell: Amusing to counterspell Heal. Niche use at best though.
Reach Spell can be good in some party compositions. Personally I wouldn't give up having a useful focus spell for it though.
Widen Spell even less so.
Wortwitch is forgettable. Flavor option for Human Witch only.
Cantrip Expansion is usually not needed. For archetype Witch characters this is good. For full Witch characters, 5 (or 6 with a familiar feat) cantrips are usually sufficient.
Conceal Spell can be really useful in certain types of campaigns (societal intrigue). Really weak otherwise.
Enhanced Familiar depends on how powerful the familiar is allowed to be. Even so, additional ability slots become less important the more slots you already have. Once you have the abilities you need, the remaining slots are not so useful.
Familiar's Language can be mildly useful for certain campaigns and GMs. Useless otherwise.
Dedications feats are not usually powerful enough on their own. So paying the 4th level class feat slot is also needed. So waiting until 6th level before being able to use my focus pool for anything seems really...
Cackle,Cauldron,Reach spell, enhanced familiar are just a lot more powerful than basic Lesson to me. Cauldron is situational but less so than most of the spells from basic lessons. I can agree they are better than i thought but being better than what i thought don't make them that powerful.
Cackle,Cauldron,Reach spell, enhanced familiar are just a lot more powerful than basic Lesson to me. Cauldron is situational but less so than most of the spells from basic lessons. I can agree they are better than i thought but being better than what i thought don't make them that powerful.
Sounds good. I can respect that.
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I don't think I really agree. The witch has some issues, but a lot of them can be addressed with baby steps. It's not fundamentally flawed in some of the ways the alchemist is/was... it's just weirdly behind the curve compared to other casters.
That's mostly because it has no unique mechanics; its only unique in flavor. Baby steps won't help until we know which direction to take them in (though I agree that a complete rewrite is just not on the table and thus not worthy of serious consideration). For example, if the witch's familiar gets unique options and becomes more valuable then maybe phase familiar actually becomes (or can be tweaked to be) a focus spell of comparable value to a basic lesson.
Cackle is actually really good - once I have something worth sustaining. So not a 2nd level feat. Either Human Natural Ambition or level 4 at the earliest.
...
And then there is Basic Lesson. A useful focus spell, another focus point, and maybe access to an off-list spell as well.
I agree specially with the combination of both feats but more because allow a LvL 2 witch to have 3 focus points. And Cackle really shines with 3 actions spells, só specially after SoM the Cackle is the best thing that witches currently have but still limited because the lack of more high level spell slots.
Cackle,Cauldron,Reach spell, enhanced familiar are just a lot more powerful than basic Lesson to me. Cauldron is situational but less so than most of the spells from basic lessons. I can agree they are better than i thought but being better than what i thought don't make them that powerful.
I agree but the main benefit of basic Lesson IMO isn't really the lesson by itself is more because allow the witch to cackle more.
I don't think I really agree. The witch has some issues, but a lot of them can be addressed with baby steps. It's not fundamentally flawed in some of the ways the alchemist is/was... it's just weirdly behind the curve compared to other casters.That's mostly because it has no unique mechanics; its only unique in flavor. Baby steps won't help until we know which direction to take them in (though I agree that a complete rewrite is just not on the table and thus not worthy of serious consideration). For example, if the witch's familiar gets unique options and becomes more valuable then maybe phase familiar actually becomes (or can be tweaked to be) a focus spell of comparable value to a basic lesson.
Yes, and here we have the main diference between witch and alchemist. In practice the alchemist can be progressive improved by any new book just only adding new alchemical itens. APG was a good example for this, the addition of many bombs, elixirs and mutagenic improved the alchemist strategies and versatility a lot and even we have many APs adding more alchemical itens that will improving the alchemist options to use.
The witch is far more complicated to do little improvements overtime, probably the mostly can be focused in improve it's hexes options but this also means that the Paizo have to add new feats for it and patrons, and once that a APG class is not a core class this is not likely to happen without a expansion focused in witches or the APG (like a APG 2) once this would be an expansion book focused in expand other expansion book.
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It doesn't actually reference the witch's familiar class feature, is says "you gain a familiar", which by default get two abilities, with extra abilities.
While I agree that this is the most RAW readying of the rules, it does come with some problems.
- A regular familiar can't be replaced without a week of downtime. So a stray fireball can lock you out of a big chunk of your archetype for a rather long time depending on when you next get the chance to spend a week.- A regular familiar can NOT use the Learn a Spell activity to the best of my knowledge. That's a unique ability of the witch's familiar. The spellcasting feats say your familiar learns some spells when it gets slots of a new level, but by RAW that's all you ever get if you have just a regular familiar.
I personally think you should get a familiar with 2 (-1) abilities without increasing that number at later levels. It probably still should resurrect within a day and explicitely be able to learn spells.
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Anyway, I agree that the archetype needs to be cleared up.
I haven't run into any issues with minions outside of combat yet but that might just be because I didn't see a player trying to exploit them yet.
I slighty disagree on Basic Lesson's value and would (and have) take an archetype dedication instead on level 2 if the build demands it. I did pick it up at level 4, though.
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At its core, the Witch is a Familiar Thesis Wizard with 25% less spells. What does she get in exchange for that 25%?
1. Her familiar resurrects faster. Considering it doubles as her spellbook this is not really a feature but more a case of "the class breaks if that doesn't exist".
2. A choice of tradition. I don't really see this as a feature since no which will ever have more than one tradition. So instead of 4 classes, we have one class in four different flavors. This is barely equivalent to a choice of a subclass in my opinion. And - unlike the Sorcerer - the Witch doesn't even have any feats that are tradition-locked.
3. A nearly useless focus spell. Phase Familiar is mind-bogglingly (not sure that's a word) terrible and manages to be worse than the already bad focus spells of the Wizard. It's rarely used at all and even if it is, it might outright fail to save your familiar with its puny 5 HP per level. Serious question: Has anyone here used this spell? Ever? And did it help at all?
4. A focus cantrip. Those can be very powerful as proven by the bard. But as we all know those of the witch fall flat. Mechanically speaking, 99% of all witches would exchange their Hex cantrip for Inspire Courage without hesitation given the opportunity.
The focus spell seems an easy fix. Just give the Witch Cackle instead of (or even in addition to) Phase Familiar. Or give her Basic Lessen at level 1 for free. Or even give her both. Starting with multiple Focus spells should really not be a problem. The oracle can do it, as can a Runelord Wizard. Also Maestro Bards and Wild Druids, come to think of it. If you want the Witch to be a class reliant on focus spells, you might also want to give her improved refocusing for free.
The cantrips are a bit more complicated because they come with a variety of different effects, so each one needs an individual "fix". I like the idea of Evil Eye making the target frightened 1 on a successful save - without the option to sustain the spell. I can't realy come up with fixes for most other Hex cantrips, though.
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4. A focus cantrip. Those can be very powerful as proven by the bard. But as we all know those of the witch fall flat. Mechanically speaking, 99% of all witches would exchange their Hex cantrip for Inspire Courage without hesitation given the opportunity.
I actually feel that this is a problem with Inspire Courage rather than the Hex Cantrips. Go through the Composition Cantrip list again and compare the Hex Cantrips to any of the rest of them. They don't compare nearly so badly.
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why doesn't the witch get a wide variety of hex cantrips? being locked into just one sucks, especially since it's tied to patron choice.
Yes. That is pretty high on my list of improvements and additions to the Witch class that I would like to see.
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4. A focus cantrip. Those can be very powerful as proven by the bard. But as we all know those of the witch fall flat. Mechanically speaking, 99% of all witches would exchange their Hex cantrip for Inspire Courage without hesitation given the opportunity.I actually feel that this is a problem with Inspire Courage rather than the Hex Cantrips. Go through the Composition Cantrip list again and compare the Hex Cantrips to any of the rest of them. They don't compare nearly so badly.
I don't know. Inspire Defense and Dirge of Doom are both pretty good and much better than anything the witch can do. Even some of the weaker compositions like triple time still seem more useful then at least half of the hex cantrips.
Sure, all compositions besides Courage cost feats but the witch can't even spend feats to get anywhere near the quality of compositions. The free familiar isn't nearly enough to close the gap, especially since the bard also has vastly better proficiencies, more HP and so on.
Bard is an extreme example of course. The witch compares more favorable against the wizard or sorcerer. I'd still say both of those classes are superior mechanically. And by quite a bit at that.
Yeah. They don't compare as badly. The Hex Cantrips are a bit less powerful than the Composition Cantrips in general. But cherry picking Inspire Courage just results in sounding like hyperbole.
And not getting access to additional ones does sting quite a bit.
Bard is an extreme example of course. The witch compares more favorable against the wizard or sorcerer. I'd still say both of those classes are superior mechanically. And by quite a bit at that.
Not going to disagree with the Bard being an extreme example.
And I only mildly disagree with the wizard or sorcerer being quite a bit superior. Part of the design space of the Witch is that they can't outperform the other classes that they overlap with. Since Witch can cast any tradition, that means having to be less powerful mechanically than any of the other spellcasting classes.
And the disagreement about being significantly less powerful comes back to those Hex focus spells (the non-cantrip ones, and not including Phase Familiar). Having a powerful focus spell to cast all day goes a long way to compensating for being short one spell slot per level. Wizard and Sorcerer both get one focus spell at 1st level, but they are generally less powerful than the Hex focus spells from Basic Lesson and can't be chosen as freely. Some Sorcerer focus spells are also really good, but the choice of focus spell is tied to the casting tradition, bloodline spells in Repertoire automatically, and skill boost that you get too. Most of the time the choice of casting tradition and bloodline spells takes precedence over picking a preferred focus spell.
But this leads back to why it is almost mandatory for a Witch to spend their 2nd level class feat on Basic Lesson. That is what brings them back up to a competitive power level with those two classes.
If we made Elemental Betrayal a regular spell slot spell at spell level 1, would a Wizard prepare and cast it?
Because doing so means that you are dropping that spell level down to having only 3 spell slots left.
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Since Witch can cast any tradition, that means having to be less powerful mechanically than any of the other spellcasting classes.
Witches can only cast spells from one Tradition, they don't have cross-Tradition spell access.
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Since Witch can cast any tradition, that means having to be less powerful mechanically than any of the other spellcasting classes.Witches can only cast spells from one Tradition, they don't have cross-Tradition spell access.
To clarify: yes, any one Witch character only gets one tradition.
The class as a whole is competing against all of the other casting classes. If the Witch class was comparatively better than the Wizard class, then the Rune Witch would obsolete the Wizard. Similarly, if the Witch class was comparatively better than the Cleric, then Fervor Witch would obsolete the Cleric.
So therefore, the Witch class as a whole needs to compare as slightly less powerful than any of the other casting classes. At least as far as HP, Armor, casting slots, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, and the like are concerned. The room to shine is in the unique features such as class feats, familiar abilities, and focus spells.
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Similarly, if the Witch class was comparatively better than the Cleric, then Fervor Witch would obsolete the Cleric.
And how would this be possible, you might ask.
Accidentally make a Greater Lesson of Life with a Hex spell that takes two actions to cast, does approximately as much healing as 2-action Heal, and also does it instantly (instead of the regular Life Boost's heal over time).
Witch can always get access to Mage Armor, so the AC will be comparable to Cleric. Toughness can help close the gap in HP. Similar weapon proficiency, and that isn't as important for a full caster anyway. And while Divine Font is awesome, it is also finite. At level 12 the Witch could cast this 2-action heal Hex twice per fight indefinitely.
And the really scary thing - this wouldn't have to be on a Divine tradition witch.
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It doesn't actually reference the witch's familiar class feature, is says "you gain a familiar", which by default get two abilities, with extra abilities.
I can understand a bit of confusion, but why in the world would witch dedication provide a better familiar in the long run as well as a cantrip and a skill training than any other familiar feat. It definately falls under "too good to be true".
The actual sentence is "you gain a familiar with two common cantrips". As normal familiars don't have common cantrips, it's obviously a Witch Familiar.
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Yeah. They don't compare as badly. The Hex Cantrips are a bit less powerful than the Composition Cantrips in general. But cherry picking Inspire Courage just results in sounding like hyperbole.
A bit? How is Dirge of Doom only "a bit" more powerful than Evil eye? The two are worlds apart.
And I only mildly disagree with the wizard or sorcerer being quite a bit superior. Part of the design space of the Witch is that they can't outperform the other classes that they overlap with. Since Witch can cast any tradition, that means having to be less powerful mechanically than any of the other spellcasting classes.
That doesn't make any sense. If choose-your-tradition means the class overall needs to be weaker (which by itself is a ridiculous notion to me), then why isn't the Sorcerer weaker than a wizard, druid or cleric?
And the disagreement about being significantly less powerful comes back to those Hex focus spells (the non-cantrip ones, and not including Phase Familiar). Having a powerful focus spell to cast all day goes a long way to compensating for being short one spell slot per level. Wizard and Sorcerer both get one focus spell at 1st level, but they are generally less powerful than the Hex focus spells from Basic Lesson and can't be chosen as freely. Some Sorcerer focus spells are also really good, but the choice of focus spell is tied to the casting tradition, bloodline spells in Repertoire automatically, and skill boost that you get too. Most of the time the choice of casting tradition and bloodline spells takes precedence over picking a preferred focus spell.
But this leads back to why it is almost mandatory for a Witch to spend their 2nd level class feat on Basic Lesson. That is what brings them back up to a competitive power level with those two classes.
Yeah, I already agreed with you on this point and even suggested to give the Witch Basic Lesson for free at level 1...
If we made Elemental Betrayal a regular spell slot spell at spell level 1, would a Wizard prepare and cast it?
Probably not? At least not past level 5 or so. To keep Elemntal Betrayal significant, you need to heighten it. But I can't imagine spending a 9th level spell slot on it if I could just as well blast an enemy with 5 magic missiles or a Power Word Kill for the same spell slot. Will probably deal roughly the same amount of damage and do so much faster.
The class as a whole is competing against all of the other casting classes. If the Witch class was comparatively better than the Wizard class, then the Rune Witch would obsolete the Wizard. Similarly, if the Witch class was comparatively better than the Cleric, then Fervor Witch would obsolete the Cleric.
I still absolutely do not get the sentiment that the witch needs to be weaker than other casters. That doesn't make any sense.
And I doubt anyone wants the witch to be stronger than the other classes. But at least comparable. Divine Sorcerers and oracles can co-exist without many players thinking one of them is strictly superior. Why not Wizards and rune Witches?
Similarly, if the Witch class was comparatively better than the Cleric, then Fervor Witch would obsolete the Cleric.And how would this be possible, you might ask.
Accidentally make a Greater Lesson of Life with a Hex spell that takes two actions to cast, does approximately as much healing as 2-action Heal, and also does it instantly (instead of the regular Life Boost's heal over time).
Witch can always get access to Mage Armor, so the AC will be comparable to Cleric. Toughness can help close the gap in HP. Similar weapon proficiency, and that isn't as important for a full caster anyway. And while Divine Font is awesome, it is also finite. At level 12 the Witch could cast this 2-action heal Hex twice per fight indefinitely.
And the really scary thing - this wouldn't have to be on a Divine tradition witch.
But no such hex exisists, does it? I could also argue
"The cleric would be better than a witch if there was a domain with a party-friendly area version of death hex as a domain spell that doesn't need to be sustained." There, I did it. Witch is obsolete now.
And Toughness only closes the HP gap until the Cleric takes it as well. You're giving your example witch a bunch of theoretical advantages that are not really there. I'm sorry, but your arguments hold no water.
Familiars in Exploration
Something we've done at our table isto treat a character's familiar as aiding the exploraction activity of the character with narrative descriptions of what the familiar is doing and how it is using its abilities to affect the DC for aid checks.
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Clarifying familiars is important for everyone. I think they're too dependent on GM fiat, and that can be a pretty wild swing in power table to table.
I think a basic lesson should be available at level 1. I'm surprised it wasn't a thing from the beginning. I don't think future lessons need to be automatic, necessarily, but phase familiar is not a satisfying focus spell to start your character with, because all it does is potentially (maybe) keep your spellbook from getting immediately devoured. If your familiar isn't being attacked, which I think most people would try to avoid, it's basically a dead ability, and doesn't compare very well as a feature with Arcane Bond/school focus spells, the Bard Muse feat, Cleric Divine Font, the Druid Order feats, or Sorcerer Bloodline focus spells.
An "Order Explorer" feat to select other Hex Cantrips would also be a good option. They aren't so powerful that having more than one is going to catapult the Witch above other casters, but it also softens the blow of the more situational Hex Cantrips. Combined with more tradition-specific feats in general, I think you'd start to get some really interesting builds.
I also think Witches should have the opportunity to pull spells from other traditions, similar to how Fae Summoners have limited selection from illusion/enchantment arcane spells. I think that ship has sailed though, and is probably more than errata or new book options would do.
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I feel, thematically, that since the premise of "you are taught magic by a mysterious patron" having "Basic Lesson" something you need to spend a feat on is weird.
Like if your patron didn't teach you the basic lesson, what precisely are they doing in their part of the relationship?
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Familiars in Exploration
Something we've done at our table isto treat a character's familiar as aiding the exploraction activity of the character with narrative descriptions of what the familiar is doing and how it is using its abilities to affect the DC for aid checks.
Just as a reminder, minions normally can't aid as they do not have a reaction.
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I feel, thematically, that since the premise of "you are taught magic by a mysterious patron" having "Basic Lesson" something you need to spend a feat on is weird.
Like if your patron didn't teach you the basic lesson, what precisely are they doing in their part of the relationship?
Totally agree. it's a fundamental part of not only a Witch's battle power, but also of their flavour and lore..
Like if your patron didn't teach you the basic lesson, what precisely are they doing in their part of the relationship?
Well, if we look at the archetype it seems their job is to teach you 2 [or 1 depending on how you read it] cantrips... :P
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Witch can cast any tradition, that means having to be less powerful mechanically than any of the other spellcasting classes.
I'm sorry but this just doesn't make any sense. A rune witch and an arcane wizard have identical spell access innately. Saying the latter must be better than the former because you could have played a completely different character instead is absurd.