On the contrary, that is included purely because the eidolon's list of actions (ie, how it can act) does not include a dismiss itself. Therefore that text was included to say "you cant use any of your normal actions, except the action to dismiss the eidolon because an eidolon cant do that to itself by default."While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it.You, the summoner, can't act.
I believe the "you" in the first part of the clause is the player. You, the player, use the eidolon's statistics (i.e., not the summoners, which includes not the summoner's mental statistics). You, the summoner, can't act except to direct (tell) the eidolon to unmanifest.
You are not conveniently ignoring rules text that does not support your interpretation. Debate can no longer proceed.
I will say that if that was what they meant by "you can't act," then it would have been more succinct to say, "The eidolon can Dismiss itself."
You stating your opinions that disregard the rules text and every explanation based on the text is getting old.The summoner isn't piloting the Eidolon like piloting a mech suit. They're Eddie Brock along for the ride as Venom goes on a rampage, with the minor additional control of being able to tell Venom to bugger off.
You become the Eidolon is effectively you are replaced by the Eidolon.
Oh, the irony.
Your physical form can (1)combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities. You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, (2)you become it. While Manifested in this way, (3)you use its statistics, and you can't act (4)except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it.Since you can't act, you can't Cast Spells, activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon, perform actions that have the tandem trait, or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act. Your can't be (5)separately targeted while you are melded into it. When (6)you reach 0 HP, your eidolon unmanifests, leaving your body behind, unconscious and dying.
1a. The feat literally says you "combine". Not are replaced. Not that you cease to exist. Not that you unsummon yourself.
1b. The feat states it grants "you" benefits. Which makes sense. But under your baseless interpretation that you arent there, having been replaced, or that "you" refers to the player, not the character, this would make no sense, because "you" arent being granted the listed benefits, instead just "only being an eidolon".
1c. The feat states it limits your capabilities, it would not say this if you effectively didnt exist. You cant limit the capabilities of something that doesnt exist.
2. The feat states you become your eidolon. It does not state you are replaced by your eidolon. It does not state you ever stop being your character. Again, redhead becomes doctor does not equal redhead ceases to be redhead or is replaced by a doctor. (Very simple analogy)
3. The feat states you use its statistics. It doesnt state it uses its own statistics. It includes this because the character is the one using the eidolon's statistics.
4. The feat states that again, you still have the ability to act to do this one thing. Something you would not be able to do if you weren't still present.
It goes on to list the ways the summoner is restricted in what actions they can take. Again, which would be redundant if the Summoner wasnt still there. It does not say any effects cease, suspend of otherwise are cured.
5. Stressing here that you cant be targeted "seperately" because you and the eidolon are one being. That would be completely redundant if the summoner was effectively not there.
6. Again, you, not the eidolon, because you dont "functionally" or "effectively" not exist or are replaced.
Lastly "You cant act", in game terms simply means "you cant take your actions", thankfully the feat explicitly also allows you to use your eidolon statistics, which come with their own actions. The feat even lists one way in which you can still take actions: the action to dismiss your eidolon, included because eidolon's dont have this capability by default.
Nothing you are trying to argue appears as comprehensively covered by the feat text. Yours is based not on the quoted text, but on a misunderstanding/massive oversimplification of the word "become", ignoring the larger context of the whole feat's text, and you're attempting to use that to justify overhauling what the feat is written to do.
The feat is clearly designed and written to function similarly to 1e's synthesist. It does no more or less than what the feat text says.
I will say that if that was what they meant by "you can't act," then it would have been more succinct to say, "The eidolon can Dismiss itself."
It has no need to say that, because you are still present and you are the one acting as the eidolon. If the eidolon was the only thing present and you were no longer present, it would say "the eidolon can dismiss itself". But it doesnt, specifically because you are the eidolon and still you.
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Sorry, most of this seems like sophistry to me.
And you get to the truth from sophistry by providing arguments and evidence
Well that is succinct why didn't it say that.
I think the intent is clear. Only the Eidolon is effectively present. It can do what the Eidolon could do if the summoner was present and no more.
You know VERY well that Paizo isn't always as clear as one would like :-). See all the wild shape arguments we've both been involved in for absolute proof of that :-).
I want to change my statement.
The current words are quite unclear and I expect there to be significant table variation.
At a normal table, check with your GM and come to some kind of agreement.
At PFS, I'd expect so much table variation that I'd avoid this feat altogether (or only use it in the clearest cases) in order to avoid the drama. I'd most certainly NOT build a rogue with a summoner archetype in PFS expecting the Eidolon to be able to sneak attack or a monk expecting to be able to flurry.
Its quite possible that I'm wrong and that a consensus will form. But I'd wait to see that consensus before relying on it :-). And I personally have no idea what that consensus would be
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I'd most certainly NOT build a rogue with a summoner archetype in PFS expecting the Eidolon to be able to sneak attack or a monk expecting to be able to flurry.
Monk being able to flurry while melded is out of the question. Flurry is an action that as an eidolon you cant use. The same as every other action you have prior to melding that are restricted. (Except dismiss eidolon)
The discussion is around passive effects and conditions that persist through melding. Just popped in to clarify that so people dont get confused.
Sorry, most of this seems like sophistry to me.
And you get to the truth from sophistry by providing arguments and evidence
Well that is succinct why didn't it say that.
I think the intent is clear. Only the Eidolon is effectively present. It can do what the Eidolon could do if the summoner was present and no more.
You know VERY well that Paizo isn't always as clear as one would like :-). See all the wild shape arguments we've both been involved in for absolute proof of that :-).
I want to change my statement.
The current words are quite unclear and I expect there to be significant table variation.
At a normal table, check with your GM and come to some kind of agreement.
At PFS, I'd expect so much table variation that I'd avoid this feat altogether (or only use it in the clearest cases) in order to avoid the drama. I'd most certainly NOT build a rogue with a summoner archetype in PFS expecting the Eidolon to be able to sneak attack or a monk expecting to be able to flurry.
Its quite possible that I'm wrong and that a consensus will form. But I'd wait to see that consensus before relying on it :-). And I personally have no idea what that consensus would be
Thankyou. That really is the only decision I can come to as well after reading these rules. It is really the point I am trying to make. Multiple interpretations are possible. I can justify what Starocious and I have been saying but its an argument about a gap, the other point of view is based on a shared understanding which is not explicit in the rules.
I really would have hoped this would not be the case. But in my opinion these things are unclear in the rules:
a) what happens to conditions and effects on the Summoner /Eidolon when it Melds and unMelds
b) does the Melded Eidolon keep any passive non action abilities the Summoner had?
GMs will make a ruling and GMs will do it differently.
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I really would have hoped this would not be the case. But in my opinion these things are unclear in the rules:
a) what happens to conditions and effects on the Summoner /Eidolon when it Melds and unMelds
b) does the Melded Eidolon keep any passive non action abilities the Summoner had?
I think the other unclear thing (related but definitely different) is what happens to conditions on the Eidolon when the Eidolon isn't manifested. Do they end, continue, temporarily go away but come back when the Eidolon remanifests.
The clearest example of the problem is ongoing damage.
These questions are getting into the fundamental nature of what an Eidolon actually is. As such, I unfortunately don't really expect an answer from Paizo as it seems to me to be likely to fall into the category of "The GM gets to decide how such things work in their campaign"
The summoner isn't piloting the Eidolon like piloting a mech suit. They're Eddie Brock along for the ride as Venom goes on a rampage, with the minor additional control of being able to tell Venom to bugger off.
You become the Eidolon is effectively you are replaced by the Eidolon.
This is the best mental model for how things should work while Melded, I’d say.
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Are you saying can the Summoner unmanifest a normal Eidolon to negate ongoing damage, then remanifest it the next round.
Do they lose all their conditions, spell effects and statuses, or not?
Applies to a typical Eidolon, not specifically to one manifested in any particular way.
AFAICT the rules are silent.
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Are you saying can the Summoner unmanifest a normal Eidolon to negate ongoing damage, then remanifest them the next round.
Do they lose all their conditions, spell effects and statuses, or not?
Applies to a typical Eidolon, not specifically to one manifested in any particular way.
AFAICT the rules are silent.
Yes.
I think the question is thematically related. It basically gets to the core of what happens to an Eidolon when it isn't manifested. Which arguably may be pretty much the same thing that happens to the summoner when he is merged with the Eidolon.
Or may not be at all related :-(
Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
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Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
Eidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.
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Eidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
Erh, what isn't clear about it?
The rules clearly state they have home planes where they go, when not manifested.
Home Plane This is the eidolon's home plane, where it goes when unmanifested. This can help you determine the effects of abilities dependent on a creature's home plane, such as banishment.
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Can't wait for a Summoner to use Meld and then they get hit with Banishment.
LOL. I imagine it would simply end the Meld, sending the eidolon to its home plane and leaving the summoner alone.
Still, I could see a GM stranding a summoner on another plane being used as an interesting plot hook. ;)
Eidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
Erh, what isn't clear about it?
The rules clearly state they have home planes where they go, when not manifested.
Home Plane This is the eidolon's home plane, where it goes when unmanifested. This can help you determine the effects of abilities dependent on a creature's home plane, such as banishment.
You are correct. Thanks.
So does that means the effects on them would just continue when they disappear and still be there when they come back? But what about persistant damage?
So does that means the effects on them would just continue when they disappear and still be there when they come back? But what about persistent damage?
Without assistance or lucky dice rolls, I guess the eidolon and summoner die.
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But per above, they're now one.Can't wait for a Summoner to use Meld and then they get hit with Banishment.LOL. I imagine it would simply end the Meld, sending the eidolon to its home plane and leaving the summoner alone.
Summoner: What the? What just happened?
Ediolon: *sigh* Guess I'll get the air mattress out.
XD
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Eidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
Erh, what isn't clear about it?
The rules clearly state they have home planes where they go, when not manifested.
Home Plane This is the eidolon's home plane, where it goes when unmanifested. This can help you determine the effects of abilities dependent on a creature's home plane, such as banishment.You are correct. Thanks.
So does that means the effects on them would just continue when they disappear and still be there when they come back? But what about persistant damage?
"If forced beyond this distance, or if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, your eidolon's physical form dissolves: your eidolon unmanifests, and you need to use Manifest Eidolon to manifest it again."
Because of this text, I would say all effects affecting an eidolon just cease because its physical form dissolves.
Same if it is banished while Melded, leaving the Summoner behind. If the eidolon can even be targeted by Banishment while Melded, that is, what with the "Your can't be separately targeted while you are melded into it" clause.
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Party: Worry not young sister! We've traveled far through trial and tribulation to come and resc...
*Takes in the sight of a cozy dining area with the eidolon serving the summoner tea and crumpets around a small table table surrounded by various stuffed animals and dolls dressed up to look like the party members*
...cue...you...?
Summoner: *deadpans* Oh good. You've finally come.
Eidolon: *awkwardly feigned cheerfulness* Can I interest you all in some tea before returning to work?
XD
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Eidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
And my plant Eidolon is native to the Material Plane so no extra planar shenanigans there at all
And my plant Eidolon is native to the Material Plane so no extra planar shenanigans there at allEidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
Interesting. I guess it's effectively immune to banishment spells and attempts to Manifest Eidolon to dismiss it then.
:P
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And my plant Eidolon is native to the Material Plane so no extra planar shenanigans there at allEidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
Interesting. I guess it's effectively immune to banishment spells and attempts to Manifest Eidolon to dismiss it then.
:P
WHy would it affect Manifest? It's a Teleportation not a Summons.
WHy would it affect Manifest? It's a Teleportation not a Summons.And my plant Eidolon is native to the Material Plane so no extra planar shenanigans there at allEidolons seem to be created with Essense to resemble things on other planes. It is not at all clear if they exist on another plane.Doesn't an unmanifested eidolon simply return to its home plane?
If so, I'd think that any ongoing conditions would persist.
Interesting. I guess it's effectively immune to banishment spells and attempts to Manifest Eidolon to dismiss it then.
:P
So they get teleported to "some other location" on the Material Plane? Like a secluded grove or something?
I guess that could work.
So does that means the effects on them would just continue when they disappear and still be there when they come back? But what about persistant damage?
"If forced beyond this distance, or if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, your eidolon's physical form dissolves: your eidolon unmanifests, and you need to use Manifest Eidolon to manifest it again."
Because of this text, I would say all effects affecting an eidolon just cease because its physical form dissolves.
Same if it is banished while Melded, leaving the Summoner behind. If the eidolon can even be targeted by Banishment while Melded, that is, what with the "Your can't be separately targeted while you are melded into it" clause.
Your rationale doesn't really makes sense if all that is happening to the Eidolon is that it is teleported to another plane or location.
Yes this is one of two reasonable responses to this question. The effects continue or they don't. I just don't see any rules reason to favour it.
We know what happens to hitpoints - you use the Summoners HitPoints when the Eidolon returns. We know what happens to Slow and Haste effects - they remain on the Summoner. We don't what happens to a confusion spell, a poison effect that weakens or stupifies, a longstrider spell that might last for 8 hours. Quite a lot of different effects.
Does it make a difference if the Eidolon returns a round later, 10 minutes later or a day later?
There are pluses and minus to ruling either way.
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More information, duplicating another post back into this thread.
No RAW answer.
However I've been thinking. If we look at the wider lore ... let me give you this quote from Secrets of Magic page21 on Conjuration modern scholars agree that summoning creates facsimiles
If we apply this to manifesting - and manifesting is conjuration - I think we can work out an answer.
The eidolon that manifests is a copy of the eidolon from its home plane/location.
So the eidolon we see is a copy that is created on manifesting, and a copy that is destroyed on unmanifesting. The real eidolon is on its home plane and is safe.
So spells, conditions and effects on it go down when it unmanifests. When it remanifests it is a fresh clean copy, that has whatever hitpoints the Summoner has.
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The eidolon that manifests is a copy of the eidolon from its home plane/location.
/QUOTE]I sort of like this. Makes sense, allows one to extrapolate into other cases, etc.
It does imply some things though. The manifested Eidolon would presumably (?) not have any memory of whatever happened in other manifestations.
It is also, of course, not even a tiny bit the only possible answer. It would be really nice for Paizo to weigh in on this topic.
So the eidolon we see is a copy that is created on manifesting, and a copy that is destroyed on unmanifesting. The real eidolon is on its home plane and is safe.
Except the passage RavingDork quoted states the home plane is where it goes when unmanifested. Not where it always exists while people summon copies. Where it goes.
let me give you this quote from Secrets of Magic page21 on Conjuration modern scholars agree that summoning creates facsimiles
People agree on stuff that's wrong all the time.
Just look at the people trying to claim that a melded summoner ceases to exist if you need examples.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, it becomes an issue if all the player needs to do to cure an ongoing affliction on their eidolon is to unmanifest and remanifest their eidolon.
That would be quite the panacea! And would completely change how eidolons are played. If nothing else, they'd become great trap disarmed. What's a poisoned dart without the poison?
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I mean, it becomes an issue if all the player needs to do to cure an ongoing affliction on their eidolon is to unmanifest and remanifest their eidolon.
That would be quite the panacea! And would completely change how eidolons are played. If nothing else, they'd become great trap disarmed. What's a poisoned dart without the poison?
Right.
I think Summoner's Precaution's wording opens up a can of worms (or keeps it open). "Why would it need to state the Eidelon's taking effects if it's unmanifesting?" => An unmanifested Eidelon takes the effects.But what's that mean for when the Eidelon returns???
Does that mean I can buff my Eidelon w/ Energy Aegis, send it away, then bring it back melded and buffed? Important since the Summoner can't otherwise buff a melded Eidelon. And with a 24 hour duration, one could cast it before sleeping.
What about durations? If I assume they're running (seems legit, even important). May I just wait out the temporary effects, even most poisons? What if they're potentially lethal (and not just through hit points which become nebulous at that point, or do they?) And if I unmanifest and then manifest within a duration, what stage of poison or of a spell w/ different effects over time? Does a Cockatrice's Calcification carry over so that bringing back the Eidelon slows the Summoner? (Oh my, what does happen to the Summoner if an Eidelon gets petrified this way???)
That question is easy.
Your physical form can combine with that of your eidolon, granting benefits but limiting your capabilities. You Manifest your Eidolon, but instead of summoning it into an adjacent open space, you become it. While Manifested in this way, you use its statistics, and you can't act except to direct it to use Manifest an Eidolon to unmanifest it. Since you can't act, you can't Cast Spells, activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon, perform actions that have the tandem trait, or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act. Your can't be separately targeted while you are melded into it. When you reach 0 HP, your eidolon unmanifests, leaving your body behind, unconscious and dying.
The second sentence describes what happens when you choose to do the optional thing in the first sentence. They go together, they are not parsed separately.