Free Action (command, metamagic): If your next action is to Cast a Spell that requires a spell attack roll against Armor Class, choose Fortitude DC or Reflex DC. You make your spell attack roll against that defense instead of AC. If the spell has multiple targets, the choice of DC applies to all of them.
The discussion on reddit seems to think this item's action cost is intended, and is likely going to be a must-have item for any attack spell user.
Personally, I think this might have been intended to be One Action, rather than Free. It's essentially a good metamagic feat built into a ring. Metamagic feats tend to be one action costs. I would certainly still love to have it as an attack spell user, even with the action cost.
What do you think?
It probably was supposed to have an action cost.
But for me I would not even use the item anyway even with the free version because the spells that use spell attack that we currently have are not attractive to me.
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Well, in a fair and just world where no player ever used player knowledge, using the Shadow Signet would also require at least one successful recall knowledge to identify the creatures good and bad saves. Basically, it's only as good as your information is.
If you know the creatures AC but neither of it's saves, it is useless, since you would not be able to judge whether it's saves are higher.
If you know the creatures saves but not it's AC, it is moderately useful, since you could target the lower of the two and be sure of what your are trying to "hit".
Extrapolate on.
If you have great information, the ring is really good. If you have no information, you may as well not be wearing the ring. If you critically failed a recall knowledge, and the GM is sick of your shenanigans, then you will probably have a bad time.
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Free Action (command, metamagic): If your next action is to Cast a Spell that requires a spell attack roll against Armor Class, choose Fortitude DC or Reflex DC. You make your spell attack roll against that defense instead of AC. If the spell has multiple targets, the choice of DC applies to all of them.
The discussion on reddit seems to think this item's action cost is intended, and is likely going to be a must-have item for any attack spell user.
Personally, I think this might have been intended to be One Action, rather than Free. It's essentially a good metamagic feat built into a ring. Metamagic feats tend to be one action costs. I would certainly still love to have it as an attack spell user, even with the action cost.
What do you think?
Overpowered with an unique effect, and because of thia, Mandatory ( I hate stuff like That).
More than requiring an action rather than a free action, I'd give it something like 3 uses per day.
For example, quickened casting requires:
- a lvl 10 feat
And also
- can be used once per day ( and when you use it it's amazing and superstrong ).
Something like this is perfectly balanced, and I cry everytime I read the shadow signet description.
Giving an action rather than a free action isn't going to change anything, if not just slightly.
I don't know, the ring is a level 10, 1000 gp item, taking up an investment slot that only works for attack spells. With an action cost as well, it is only "mandatory" for attack spell focused casters who don't have a good third action and can reliably identify creature's saves.
It's good, but casters in general deserve good items too.
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The ring kind of has to be a free action to work as intended.
Most spells are two actions, and an additional action for Recall knowledge would each your turn without the ability to use the ring. Sure you can bypass the knowledge requirement on additional turns as now you know (Maybe! You might need a few rolls to get the actual answer you need), but you've already used a spell to get that far, so it works out.
Honestly, people are knee-jerking over it.
Its a very solid item and adds utility to the otherwise under served attack spells.
If Paizo are committed to never adding Spell Potency runes, then items like this work as the pressure valve.
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It's a good item whose benefit I think is a bit overrated. Sometimes it buffs the caster, other times it nerfs the caster, it only applies to spells that are mediocre for full casters even with the buff, and it shuts out other metamagic (mostly an issue for touch-range spell attacks like shocking grasp). I think mandatory is an exaggeration, unless your character concept is overwhelmingly focused on spell attack spells in the first place, and if it is I think the item enhances the game because it makes that playstyle feel less bad. The biggest benefit I see to having this item over simply using reflex or fortitude save spells is that you can prepare/learn fewer offensive spells while still getting to target an array of defenses. Which is nice, but saving throw spells are still going to do something more often than spell attack spells because the former usually have success effects while the latter rarely do. You're still at a disadvantage to someone who prepared to be offensive, just less of one.
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Honestly, people are knee-jerking over it.
Hard disagree OMR - You need to get your own knee reflexes checked if you don't think this is out of line with the rest of the system. This is effectively a +1 - +5 to hit with all Spell Attacks.
The item is CRAZY overpowered to the point that I'm shocked it's not Uncommon, Rare, or even Unique... but maybe this was an intentional design choice to get something out there that makes Spell Attacks as accurate as a Fighter with their specialized weapon after level 10...
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It's an accuracy enhancer, but a form of accuracy enhancement spellcasters already had access to by just casting other spells that were better anyways. Fixating on the size of the bonus is missing the context of the game the item exists within.
It's really nice though, assuming you're going to cast Attack spells.
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I'm calling it, in 2 months time, no one will be complaining about this item.
Let's compare 2 4th level single target spells in the arcane list, Chromatic Ray and Phantasmal Killer.
The first will be able to do 36-ish damage on average on a success and a chance of Enfeebled.
The later will do 28 damage on average on a failed save and frightened 2 and 14 and frigtened 1 on a success. Basically you add a Fear spell for free after the damage.
let's say you are level 7 and have a Spellcasting modifier of 13. You somehow got one of these rings and you are facing a Phantom Beast (a creature that has a low con save, thing that is affected by the usage of this ring). For the sake of simplicity, we will ignore the resistances of this thing. You managed to recall knowledge and know it's low and high saves.
Chromatic Ray on CON: 0'5*36+0'05*72 = 21'6 points of damage on average. 13'75% of forcing a CON save for Enfeebled 1-2 min. Roughly a 7 percent chace of doing something (also remember that if this happens we will be dealing way less damage than usual, an assured poison ray would be dealing 13-ish damage on average)
Phantasmal Killer: 0`5*14+0'25*28+0'05*42 = 16'1 points of damage on average, 50% of frightened 1, 25% of frigtened 2, 5% of frightened 4 and fleeing (realistically the kill effect is never happening).
This after factoring the use of a magical item, and fighting a creature which it's lowest save is not Will, and succeeding at recall knowledge.
No, it is not broken.
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I'm one of the people who don't think it's overpowered. It's not that useful for a Magus, since it doesn't interact with Spellstrike in any way, and a vast majority of spells in the game require saving throws rather than spell attacks. It is, in fact, entirely possible to build an offensive spell caster who never rolls a spell attack, and this item is useless to them.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this item brings cantrips like Produce Flame and Ray of Frost up to par with the clear frontrunner Electric Arc, rather than making them stronger.
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My first thought was this would be great for an Eldritch Trickster Rogue since they need attack roll spells to sneak attack, but then I remembered that the flat-footed condition penalizes AC only, so Save DCs would have to be significantly worse then baseline AC for this to be a decent option.
I'm guessing in the next couple of days someone will post a statistical analysis of all published creatures to determine how useful this item really is...
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I like the fact this ring let's me yeat a log at my enemies psyche (target will dc with telekinetic projectile).
It, in fact, does not let you do that. You can only target Fortitude or Reflex with the ring.
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A Shield Archon has AC 31 (33 with shield raised), Fort DC of 33, and Reflex DC of 25. That's either a +6 or +8 to hit by targeting Reflex instead of AC. That's a bit more than a pressure valve, that's double the max item bonus a martial can reasonably expect to have at level 20. As of level 10.
Honestly, people are knee-jerking over it....
If Paizo are committed to never adding Spell Potency runes, then items like this work as the pressure valve.
Or, the spell caster could cast Fireball or Impaling Spike or another spell that targets Reflex saving throws instead. All the ring does is make their weaker spells more likely to work, since Spell Attacks generally have no effects on a miss unlike saving throw spells.
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Agreed Ventnor.
The ring does nothing but bring your lacklustre spells up to the same accuracy as what you could already do with less lacklustre spells.
If you say that this ring provides a “+x” bonus to attack spells, what you are actually saying is that those spells are otherwise “-x” behind.
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I like the fact this ring let's me yeat a log at my enemies psyche (target will dc with telekinetic projectile).
It can only target fort or reflex sadly.
Anyway, why complain about a bonus to spell attack rolls? There's no way to get an item bonus on spell attacks, so this is something to even the playing field for casters. For example, a level 20 Magus would have +36 to hit, and they're only Masters with their weapons. A Legendary caster would only have +33 to hit. This only helps full casters when trying to make spell attacks. Like Ventor said, there's other spells that target Fort and Reflex and no one complains about them.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Shield Archon seems like an outlier too. 33 is an Extreme AC for a 10th level creature, and 15 for a save is Low-to-Terrible.
I’ll be interested to see how Shadow Signet plays in actual game conditions. Two of my Edgewatch players bought them, and so far, it hasn’t felt unbalanced or overpowered (and both players said that they enjoyed being able to play the ‘what save to target’ game)
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To elaborate more about the post above, the reason Electric Arc has a higher average damage is because on a Successful save it does half damage, and only does no damage on a crit success. Meanwhile, a Spell Attack does nothing on a fail AND a crit fail, meaning that additional 40-50% chance at half damage is completely gone. Forcing a Basic Save is almost always going to be better than making an Attack roll, this item just tries to level the playing field a bit.
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It's a bit overtuned at first blush but only because it's trying to push a playstyle that was weak on launch. With this ring spell attack rolls have a versatility advantage over basic saves where before they didn't have any advantage. If we were living in a world where spell attack rolls were already good and equal then this should never see print but we're not.
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Another thing to note is the ring's ability is Metamagic, so the caster has to bypass other good options like Reach for the shorter range spells (which is many of the spell attack spells) and Overwhelming Energy for those common energy types.
As noted by another I think the only regular beneficiary of this ring is a Cantrip-focused build, which is seldom if ever a full caster. It might perhaps be a Rogue who can add Sneak Attack to make it more viable, but they still want the target flat-footed which supports attacking AC w/o investing/buying the ring.
And I don't know anybody giving out stat info w/ Recall Knowledge. Battle Assessment gives that option (to a lesser degree), but only if the GM chooses.
Another thing to note is the ring's ability is Metamagic, so the caster has to bypass other good options like Reach for the shorter range spells (which is many of the spell attack spells) and Overwhelming Energy for those common energy types.
As noted by another I think the only regular beneficiary of this ring is a Cantrip-focused build, which is seldom if ever a full caster. It might perhaps be a Rogue who can add Sneak Attack to make it more viable, but they still want the target flat-footed which supports attacking AC w/o investing/buying the ring.
And I don't know anybody giving out stat info w/ Recall Knowledge. Battle Assessment gives that option (to a lesser degree), but only if the GM chooses.
I'll never give numbers, but generally when I have a player try a recall knowledge to find stuff out about a monster, I'll ask them for the specific topic they want their character to be thinking about. Often times that is what the monsters weaknesses are, since that is mostly what the character would Want to be thinking about.
So if they pass, I'll usually throw them a bone, something like, "You seem to remember reading somewhere that "insert monster name here" are known to be light on their feet, but with a slightly frail constitution."
Something that gives them the information they are looking for without just saying, "Yo, they have a +18 Ref, but only a +16 Fort. Go for Fort dude!"
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And I don't know anybody giving out stat info w/ Recall Knowledge. Battle Assessment gives that option (to a lesser degree), but only if the GM chooses.You can often make an educated guess, though. Big burly things tend to have good Fortitude saves and less good Reflex saves, for example.To be correct, you can "always" guess.
What may change is the outcome of your judgement, which might lead to the same AC or a slightly better AC for the enemy, but this would be the exception to the rule.
Anyway, I have the feel that people deliberately ignore the basic approach to guessing the enemy saves ( or weaknesses and strengths) given his physical description.
And a lot of those burly guys have decent Ref saves, i.e. Trolls, or simply have better Ref saves than AC when you'd least expect it, like with a Zombie Dragon. A lot of critters have ACs like a raging Barbarian backed by similar hit points.
Probably the best targets are Fey & Rogue-like folk re: Fort saves, though Fey often have beefy h.p. too due to Weakness to Cold Iron. Or targets built like Champions re: Reflex.ETA: Personally, I like the ring because I have attempted several builds based on Cantrips, and they're sub-par. This might bring them up to par. I've heard similar complaints with those focused on spells w/ spell attack rolls; they needed the help too.
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This really helps the bard make use of their inspire courage to sling TK projectiles in off resource fights. They also get very few reflex targeting spells in general, so this is a very welcome boon.
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Flame Oracle in my group picked one up for this session. She enjoyed it!
I tracked rolls just to see what would happen. Obviously this isn’t a representative sample, but in our 4ish hour session, only 4 Produce Flames hit that otherwise would have missed.
So, it’s nice but if I wasn’t tracking it, I probably wouldn’t have even noticed it was there.
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Y'all know this doesn't force a basic save, right? There's no half damage on success rider on this. You're just comparing your spell attack roll, against a choice of two other numbers. Nothing else changes.
Correct. That makes Spell Attacks with the signet more versatile (since you can target two saves) but less reliable than actual save spells that tend to do half damage on a failure.
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Y'all know this doesn't force a basic save, right? There's no half damage on success rider on this. You're just comparing your spell attack roll, against a choice of two other numbers. Nothing else changes.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that basic saves are still better. No one thinks that this makes the enemy roll a basic save; it's very clear you are just targeting a different DC than normal with the same effects.
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Y'all know this doesn't force a basic save, right? There's no half damage on success rider on this. You're just comparing your spell attack roll, against a choice of two other numbers. Nothing else changes.
People are discussing basic save spells to point out that they are better than spell attack spells, even if you use the shadow signet, not because they think the signet turns spells into a basic save.
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Not knowing the number of fights and total times she cast produce flame, it could have been either 0 or 100.Flame Oracle in my group picked one up for this session. She enjoyed it!
I tracked rolls just to see what would happen. Obviously, this isn’t a representative sample, but in our 4ish hour session, only 4 Produce Flames hit that otherwise would have missed.
So, it’s nice but if I wasn’t tracking it, I probably wouldn’t have even noticed it was there.
My post was just qualitative info, not statistical data.
Point was that our Flame Oracle didn't suddenly feel like an OP badass.
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Hmm. What attack spells have I seen in play?
Mostly cantrips which don't do as much damage as martial strikes.
Searing Light. Situationally good.
Disintegrate. This is the spell that could really be exploited by this ring. A disintegrate targeting a weak save with a true strike spell could be really good, maybe too good. A mega disintegrate using this ring could be real, real nasty.
Maybe a fiery body primal caster using produce flame could do some nasty damage.
What spells could make this ring too insanely good? That is what needs to be looked at.
This is a real boon to master level casters that makes their cantrips more usable. It's a great item for a legendary caster.
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Not knowing the number of fights and total times she cast produce flame, it could have been either 0 or 100.Flame Oracle in my group picked one up for this session. She enjoyed it!
I tracked rolls just to see what would happen. Obviously, this isn’t a representative sample, but in our 4ish hour session, only 4 Produce Flames hit that otherwise would have missed.
So, it’s nice but if I wasn’t tracking it, I probably wouldn’t have even noticed it was there.
My post was just qualitative info, not statistical data.
Point was that our Flame Oracle didn't suddenly feel like an OP badass.
Well, being a "badass" had never been the issue, to begin with.
Knowing that even by using cantrips with a flame oracle the ring did its work is what matters.
Which simply means "it's a must" ( and was clear with your post).
But what's missing, and would have given a nice extra data, is how much cantrips were fired, in order to know some percentages.
I can just guess:
Knowing you mentioned 4ish hours session, this may mean 1 combat per hour ( 4 combats total).
Assuming 5 rounds per encounter, 4 success would be 20% extra power. If they were 4 rounds per combat, 25%. If the oracle didn't shot every combat round, from 25% on ( impressive, regardless the outcome, if compared with the same character without the ring).
Ps: our 5 players party group is pretty slow, and we do 1,3 combat per 3 hours. Just to better explain my assumption "1 combat encounter per hour".
You SO badly want this ring to be an issue that you are now actively inventing your own scenarios to be mad at.
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Imo, this ring is an elegant solution to the issue of spell attacks. In lieu of otem bonuses, it lets you weakness target with spell attacks, which is pretty in line with how casters are supposed to work anyways.
It finally makes spell attacks a competitive and viable choice, and comes into play when the accuracy disparity becomes really appearent. There's really nothing wrong with it as is
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I don't know, I haven't had a chance to play in a game with a Shadow Signet yet, my group's current campaign just hit 2nd level, but my non-scientific and gut based analysis tells me that the Shadow Signet is probably fine.
Spell Attack spells were already largely pushed to the wayside by save based spells. Anything that brings them a bit higher in efficiency is a good thing in my eyes.
Also, try to avoid brow beating people on the forums. Old_Man already stated that his provided data is qualitative and not statistical. So stop asking them for Statistical data.
I mean, if anyone HAS played enough to provide significant statistical data on a niche (caster only, and spell list dependent to a degree) piece of equipment that JUST released in an expansion book, they need to go outside for a bit.