So, I really want to like the Kineticist, but...

[VoodistMonk]

Reading the Kineticist class makes my brain bleed... like, Gravity's Rainbow (by Thomas Pynchon) makes my brain bleed... something about it makes me question what I know about this game. And I do not consider myself novice of how PF1 classes work. I don't know $#!+ about the game, overall... enough to know I don't know enough... but the Kineticist, itself, hurts my logic circuits.

Why doesn't it offer support for being almost completely being reliant on Dex? Ranged attacks, ranged touch attacks, light/1H kinetic blades, light armor... yet, no Weapon Finesse? No Precise Shot, or something? They give it a good Reflex save, despite knowing the Kineticist will likely have a high enough Dex not to worry about failing most Reflex saves? They did the same thing to a lot of classically Dex-based classes, but they could have just as easily given the Kineticist a good Will save like other "front-line" 3/4 BAB classes [Magus,Warpriest]... just seems unrefined.

Like, is it supposed to be a selfish Alchemist? If so, they really screwed the Kineticist on skills. Well, they screwed the Kineticist on skills regardless of which role it was ever meant to be. That is like the barest of minimum skillset I would plague on any PC class, even with elemental skiĺls you get. Lol. I think Fighters should have better skills than they gave the Kineticist. Just not awesome, at all, in that department.

I wanted to make a Jedi. Well, probably a Sith. Lol. The only elements that really interest me are Aether and Void. There is some fun to be had there... I think... I don't actually know. Everything I have read is a mixed bag... doesn't help... a few people seem to have used it without issue, and others seem just as confused as I am by most or all of it.

I also thought about trying to make the ninjas from Mortal Kombat using Kineticists... but it is just so janky without any sort of support for that style of combat... Kinetic Fist is cool, and all... but Style Infusion pretty much forces multiclassing or gestalt to be useful. I didn't see too much else that really helped my over the top video game ninja hand-to-hand fighter theme. Neither Brawler or UnChained Monk offer anything to fix the Will saves when multiclassing or gestalt'ing, but they do fix the BAB. cMonk offers good Will saves, but is also 3/4... meaning it is best taken as a 4 level dip to not lose BAB, and you would at least get a Ki Pool. But at that point, what's the point? It's not like there is a whole lot of synergy there anyways.

Or there is synergy there and Mortal Kombat ninjas are like the easiest thing ever to build with Kineticists... I very well could be missing something. Like I said, trying to read the class makes my brain bleed...

[avr]

Yup, kineticists are seemingly designed to avoid synergy with other classes or abilities. And they're also definitely designed to avoid being top tier; a lightly optimised sorcerer (a bloodline xor bloodline mutation with +1 damage/die, an attack spell each spell level but no metamagic by feat or by rod) about matches any ranged kineticist for damage while heavier optimisation makes the sorc better at damage. And their utility is poor other than the telekineticist, which drops damage further.

Once you've figured out how burn, elemental overflow, gather power and infusion spec works you've got the kineticist down pat. That barrier is significant though.

If you're going to dip for stylish infusion I suggest making it a 1 level dip. 4 levels out would make the kineticist hurt significantly. If you want a ki pool there's the psammokineticist archetype.

[Firebug]

I think the designers overestimated the class' focus on Con.

[Chell Raighn]

Kineticist can actually be Extremely powerful when someone actually has some proper system mastery understanding of how they work and how to optimize them… but their is a LOT of details that someone must fully grasp to get to that point…

My biggest gripe about the Kineticist is with their wild talents… they get far too few if I am being completely honest… utility wild talents are supposed to be how they broaden their focus and deal with different types of encounters, but they only get one at every even level… for a total of 10 utility talents over the course of their career… this is largely why they are seen as one-trick-ponies, at early levels they simply don’t have the tools to do more than one thing, at mid game they are starting to get a good starter kit for versatility, and at end game they have finally reached the point that most casters are at by level 5… now I’m not saying that they should have 2 per level… rather just 1 per level or 2 per even level…

Quite frankly the Kineticist is really just a poor recreation of the Invoker class from 3.5. Kinetic Blast is just Eldritch Blast with a choice of damage type… and Wild Talents are just Invocations split into two categories with added penalties and a crippled progression rate…

[zza ni]

Chell Raighn wrote:

Kineticist can actually be Extremely powerful when someone actually has some proper system mastery understanding of how they work and how to optimize them… but their is a LOT of details that someone must fully grasp to get to that point…

My biggest gripe about the Kineticist is with their wild talents… they get far too few if I am being completely honest… utility wild talents are supposed to be how they broaden their focus and deal with different types of encounters, but they only get one at every even level… for a total of 10 utility talents over the course of their career… this is largely why they are seen as one-trick-ponies, at early levels they simply don’t have the tools to do more than one thing, at mid game they are starting to get a good starter kit for versatility, and at end game they have finally reached the point that most casters are at by level 5… now I’m not saying that they should have 2 per level… rather just 1 per level or 2 per even level…

Quite frankly the Kineticist is really just a poor recreation of the Invoker class from 3.5. Kinetic Blast is just Eldritch Blast with a choice of damage type… and Wild Talents are just Invocations split into two categories with added penalties and a crippled progression rate…

what? you want them to be both versatile AND be able to daka daka all day long?

this is the whole wizard vs sorcerer all over again...
they get to spaw their damage all day long. a versatile ability every other level is good enough for them. think of the poor alchemists who need to count bombs...or the poor fighters who are stuck with their one tricks with very littlie versatility what so ever

you want to daka daka and buff and heal and use all marital weapons and armor (and disable magic traps with the right obedience) then you need to be a Calamity Caller like everyone else.

[avr]

BTW, if any of your Mortal Kombat ninjas might fight with something like a kinetic blade or whip (I don't know them, never took an interest in the video game and so wasn't interested in the movie) then just use those; maybe blade rush or blade whirlwind for further tricks. The interface with fighting unarmed exists via elemental ascetic/kinetic fist/kundalini infusion/stylish infusion but it's just not that great without gestalt or something.

Fighting in melee with a kinetic blade or whip and haste, maybe combat reflexes with the whip is where the kineticist can start to actually rack up more damage than a sorc. Which is weird when 90% of the damage options are about range and a few more are the aforementioned unarmed options.

[Temperans]

Kineticist is honestly a fun class once you calmly read the abilities and understand what they do. A lot of people get too caught up in the "trying to be efficient" thing. But Kineticist is honestly one of the most forgiving classes you can play. Do mind the burn, it's useful but not the end all be all.

So let's unpack things a bit.

* Why doesn't offer more support for relying on Dex? Well, most classes don't get a free at will damage ability and free at will utility abilities, all while having full access to your feats. So you can just get Weapon Finesse and Point-Blank Shot like all other classes. Your feats are honestly pretty free to do whatever unlike most classes.

* Why get good reflex? Why do Rogue and Monk get good reflex when they have/can focus on Dex and have evasion? Fact is that more focus on Dex means more odds of getting good reflex as a class.

* The will save thing however is different. Good will saves are usually given to casters and classes closely related to mental fortitude (why chained monks gets it). Kineticists are mostly just about strength of body, thus they instead get good fort.

* Finally skills, honestly this is just a matter of how the system was set up. A lot of tables use background skills or the 4+Int alt rules to make it closer to what they think is appropriate.

[Temperans]

Btw to help with the Jedi/Sith and Mortal Kombat Kineticist here are some tricks.

1) Kinetic Knight is incredibly useful. First it makes Kinetic Blade (which can look like brass knuckles or gauntlets) free. Then it can allow you to use Con to get Dex based feats, by using Artful Dodge. Also because of wording, you get lots of free infusions (unless GM disallows that reading). In any case, this can make a great Jedi, where your kinetic blast is the lightsaber. Or any of the weapon based ninjas.

2) Elemental Ascetic gets a bad rap due to losing Elemental Overflow and not scaling like a Monk. But if you consider that you can add infusions to your fist and that you are saving 3 burn every time you flurry it becomes very understandable. Also, you can stack it with a Monk that trades away flurry.

3) There are actually 2 ways to get a Ki Pool as a Kineticists. The previously mentioned psammokineticist (Your blasts are based on hot air and sand). Or, the Elemental Ki feat (which you have plenty of room for feats) which you should be able to qualify for with Elemental Ascetic (I don't see why a GM would say no).

4) The best way I have found to build a Kineticist is to first think about what abilities you want to replicate. Then look for the infusions/talents that replicate what you want as closely as possible. Ex: To get Scorpio you probably want Kinetic Knight with the pulling infusion and fire element.

Most importantly of all: There is only so much official content. If you can't find it, just add in your own 3rd party supplement.

[VoodistMonk]

Some time around MK4 the characters were given weapons... which mattered way less at the time as the unblockable throw each character was also given in that game. And, I believe MK Trilogy had weapons appear after a certain combo number of hits was reached... like 5 hits into a 9 hit combo, Scorpion would suddenly have a handaxe in his hand... or something like that. The weapons were not kept very consistent from 3 to 4, though, if I remember correctly. Ultimately irrelevant, me-thinks.

Anyways, I was hoping the Kineticist would be like a mixture of your typical blaster Sorcerer and your typical Hex Witch. I thought the Burn mechanic was something that you could pretty much use all day, just not exceeding the limit per round... so, like Hexes, that provides all day staying power. There is some utility to be found in that sort of endurance, alone.

Burn seems easy enough by itself, already tracking HP anyways so it's not like it is bringing too much extra paperwork to the process. Burn does not appear to bother action economy, it just happens and needs to be tracked.

Elemental Overflow, again, just happens [with Burn/when Burn happens]... just a scaling bonus as far as I can tell. It's just a number on the character sheet that goes up every few levels.

Infusion Specialization is also just something that happens without any dedicated action economy. Did you use one or more Infusions? If yes, reduce Burn by this number... and the number scales as levels increase. You can probably just about blast for free once you get this if you always use at least one Infusion.

Gather Power is cool thematically. And, mechanically, isn't TOO terrible, I suppose. Either a move action to reduce Burn by 1, a full-round action to reduce by 2, or a full-round + your next turn's move to reduce Burn by 3. Kineticists don't move around very much, do they? Or at least not ones used to Gathering Power to reduce Burn. And concentration checks can really ruin this whole show...

You probably have a few go-to blasts, or blades/whips, that essentially cost no Burn 99% of the time due to Infusion Specialization, alone. And only need to Gather Power when you are really piling on the Infusions... which would cost a lot of Burn. I would imagine that there are feats and items to either reduce Burn costs, or raise your per-round limit... but by default, 6 points of Burn as a cap each round at level 18 seems pretty low.

Sure, Infusion Specialization is at a -5 around that same level... -6 at level 20... and you probably haven't used a blast without at least on Infusion since level 5. I'm guessing it is probably borderline useless to use blasts without Infusions around the time you get Infusion Specialization, anyways. So you can actually KIND OF accept, like, 11-12 Burn per round at levels 18-20... whether or not that is a lot, I don't have much reference. The nonlethal damage, itself, isn't TOO terrible... although, needing to sleep in order to remove Burn could make that add up fast.

It's just like they stuffed 10 pounds of $#!+ in a 5 pound bag. Lol. I understand the words, I know what the class has... I just cannot, for the life of me, see how to effectively use such a character in an actual game. Spontaneous casters, of which your quintessential blasting Sorcerer is, take longer to cast spells made more powerful by metamagics... Kineticists take more time to use blasts made more powerful with excessive Infusions or Metakinesis. Same difference, right?

Why do I like Sorcerers, but can't wrap my head around Kineticists? What is it that makes me think Kineticists are immobile sitting ducks, but Sorcerers are not?

Something about that 3/4 BAB and that little bit of armor proficiency tempts me into thinking of the Kineticist as a warrior, not a caster... so I require mobility to be paramount. Even archers seem capable of running circles around your average Kineticist. And I haven't read every Talent, nor do I claim to even have a basic understanding of what this class is actually capable of... maybe there is some really cool Dimensional Savant stuffs possible with Self Telekinesis, who knows?

[McDaygo]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Reading the Kineticist class makes my brain bleed... like, Gravity's Rainbow (by Thomas Pynchon) makes my brain bleed... something about it makes me question what I know about this game. And I do not consider myself novice of how PF1 classes work. I don't know $#!+ about the game, overall... enough to know I don't know enough... but the Kineticist, itself, hurts my logic circuits.

Why doesn't it offer support for being almost completely being reliant on Dex? Ranged attacks, ranged touch attacks, light/1H kinetic blades, light armor... yet, no Weapon Finesse? No Precise Shot, or something? They give it a good Reflex save, despite knowing the Kineticist will likely have a high enough Dex not to worry about failing most Reflex saves? They did the same thing to a lot of classically Dex-based classes, but they could have just as easily given the Kineticist a good Will save like other "front-line" 3/4 BAB classes [Magus,Warpriest]... just seems unrefined.

Like, is it supposed to be a selfish Alchemist? If so, they really screwed the Kineticist on skills. Well, they screwed the Kineticist on skills regardless of which role it was ever meant to be. That is like the barest of minimum skillset I would plague on any PC class, even with elemental skiĺls you get. Lol. I think Fighters should have better skills than they gave the Kineticist. Just not awesome, at all, in that department.

I wanted to make a Jedi. Well, probably a Sith. Lol. The only elements that really interest me are Aether and Void. There is some fun to be had there... I think... I don't actually know. Everything I have read is a mixed bag... doesn't help... a few people seem to have used it without issue, and others seem just as confused as I am by most or all of it.

I also thought about trying to make the ninjas from Mortal Kombat using Kineticists... but it is just so janky without any sort of support for that style of combat... Kinetic Fist is cool, and all... but Style Infusion pretty much forces multiclassing or gestalt to be useful....

I actually built a noob smoke hybrid using Kineticist that turned out wonderful. It a complex class that unless using a fine tuned digital character sheet that automatically populates changes I wouldn’t play but definitely a favorite class of mine.

I’m actually going to make Scorpion later today for fun but that will be a ninja class I think.

Other NPCs I’ve built with this class:
Escanor (7DS) (I home brewed a sunshine ability as this was a NPC) but even without it he was wrecking things as a full fire kinetic knight.
I made a full kobold dragon feat chain blood Kineticist (CR 9)that almost TPKd a party of 7 level 7s. He wrecked house till burn knocked him out by being fancy. He killed 3 party members and fast.
I’ve seen a water kinetic healer be ultimate support for keeping us scrubs alive lol

[Temperans]

Regarding the Mortal Kombat weapon thing, I am just basing it on art I have seen of the game. Like the fact Scorpio throws a chain to pull enemies closer.

**********************

Anyways, I am starting to see were the conflict is. Your understand of how each of the mechanics work independently seems generally good. But not really what they mean when used together.

The base for kineticist is understanding when to use your burn. There are generally 3 situations to use it:
1) At the start of the day to set up your daily buff abilities and Overflow. (There are many talents that are day long effects).
2) To nova blast the target when needed.
3) To trigger talents as needed.

You passed over Elemental Overflow as if it was nothing. But that ability gives a huge boost to your stats. For example, by placing it on Con you are able to gain more HP, Damage, and Burn points.

You are right about using Infusion to make it so you can have a "default" blast to always use for 0 cost. This frees up your move action, but there is not always a need to move. Thus you have Gather Power, to use rounds where you couldn't/wouldn't move anyways to set up. However you can get the feat "Mobile Gathering" to at least move at half base speed (half speed in a full round).

By the time you get to level 20 the general game plan is to apply two really strong infusions for free, with the occasional gather power. Your nova comes from using metakinesis on a composite blast. If you only take 1 point of unmitigated burn per blast and no set up, you can nova 18 times. If you go all out on nova, you can only do it 3 times a day.

As to your specific question of "what makes you think they are immobile?" The reason is that you are paying too much attention to gather power, and you might not have seen that there are a number of mobility talents available. For example, ride the blast allows you to move next to the target of a blast or to the center of an AoE blast; While Blade Rush lets you move 30 feet in any direction (even straight up) to effective "charge" at the enemy.

*****************************

So to summarize, a kineticist is very mobile while using the basic blast and infusion reduction, while dealing a decent amount of damage (more damage than Vital Strike). But if needed they can stop moving to channel their power and spend a lot of resources to bring down the hurt.

Because your don't necessarily need feats to deal a lot of damage (when its called for), and that most of the regular feats used by weapons don't work with blasts you can use those emptied feat slots to build out the character to be more flexible.

Related: When a Sorcerer spends their highest level slots they gone. But a Kineticist that has used up all their burn for whatever reason can continue to use the blast, including the use of infusion reduction.

[Belafon]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Infusion Specialization is also just something that happens without any dedicated action economy. Did you use one or more Infusions? If yes, reduce Burn by this number... and the number scales as levels increase. You can probably just about blast for free once you get this if you always use at least one Infusion.

Gonna speak to the rest of your questions in a bit, but I wanted to highlight this by itself:

Infusion specialization only reduces the burn cost of infusions used. It does not reduce burn from other sources of burn on a blast such as using a composite blast or metakinesis.

This is probably the most frequently missed clause of the kineticist class.

[VoodistMonk]

And it is a clause I had, indeed, missed. Thank you for pointing that out.

See, I would probably kill myself pretty quick... here lies Hbob, his hubris burnt him to death...

[Belafon]

As to your other questions/complaints:

You are absolutely right. The kineticist makes most people's brains bleed when they are reading for the first (or second, or third) time. The designer was exceedingly clever in the way he set things up. Perhaps too clever for easy comprehension. Everything is written with the minimum amount of words required to make the abilities unambiguous. Writing twice as much could have made it much easier to understand.

Spoiler:

Blasts, defenses, infusions (form and substance), and utility all fall under the overall heading of "Wild Talents." Which lets you slice what you are talking about very finely without changing the language very much.

When you get expanded element at 7th level you get one or more composite blasts for free. And you might get a simple blast, but you need to look up your element to be sure.

Once you comprehend the whole of the class, it is simple to use. You can build a character pretty easily. But getting to that level of comprehension takes a long time.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Why doesn't it offer support for being almost completely being reliant on Dex? Ranged attacks, ranged touch attacks, light/1H kinetic blades, light armor... yet, no Weapon Finesse? No Precise Shot, or something? They give it a good Reflex save, despite knowing the Kineticist will likely have a high enough Dex not to worry about failing most Reflex saves? They did the same thing to a lot of classically Dex-based classes, but they could have just as easily given the Kineticist a good Will save like other "front-line" 3/4 BAB classes [Magus,Warpriest]... just seems unrefined.

This is completely in line with every other class. It sounds like you want "free stuff." Alchemists don't get Precise Shot for free. Investigators don't get Weapon Finesse for free. As for the saves, that's completely standard. Every class (except the Core monk) has 1 or 2 good saves and the other(s) are bad. And the good saves are whatever the class is themed around. Barbarians get good Fort saves. Casters get will saves. Agile classes pretty much universally get Dex as a good save. As a Con- and Dex- based class, kineticist was going to get Fort and Reflex as their good saves. (Hey, at least they get both and not just one.)

Making a Sith is very easy once you wrap your head around the class. But the dark side exacts a heavy toll (burn). . . Mortal Combat kineticists, yeah, trickier. Kinetic fist is cool, but kinetic blade is better. You can still be Sub-Zero but you won't do absolutely everything you want to in the single-digit character levels.

[Skrayper]

This whole thread sounds like a case study in arrogance.

[VoodistMonk]

Is it arrogance blinding me from understanding the Kineticist? It very well could be.

Or was that more directed at the "here lies Hbob, his hubris burnt him to death" thing?

Either way, there is a lot to unpack with this class... and from what I have seen around the interwebs, I am not the first to find themselves confused by it.

I will poke around a little deeper into the Talents, and feat support... Mobile Gathering, for instance... take another look at the archetypes. Take another go at seeing what, if anything, really stands out for synergies to found with gestalt...

I do already have a pre-nerf/Con-casting Half-Orc Scarred Witch Docter Witch set up to be gestalt with whatever Kineticist gets Omnicide. Lol. Absolutely no clue where I would ever use her, but I intend for her to be able to use said Omnicide whenever I do..

[Sysryke]

It may or may not help you to know that this class is based almost entirely around benders from Avatar: the Last Airbender. Mobility really isn't an issue.

Beyond that, the class is designed to provide something besides barbarians that can be predominantly built around Con, as much as (if not more so than) Dex. It's not wrong for you to think of a kineticist as more of a warrior, they sort of are. The other (really main) schtick of the class is the blast that never quits. Somebody wanted a flashy energy user, who isn't technically a caster, to have the same staying power as the martial classes.

I love benders, and this theme in general, but from a balance/design perspective, it would not be unfair for the proponents of the martials vs. magic debate to say that the kineticist class is magic types stepping on martials even more. The mitigating factor is that kineticists don't have spells. But since they still play with supernatural energies, they're complicated.

If you can get past the design issues, then the fun of the class comes from your choice of elements. This class is great for realizing specific thematic types of characters. After that it's about using you individual or combination of elements in as many creative ways as possible for maximum utility.

As far as gestalting, I love the system, but wouldn't consider myself an optimization specialist. I don't see why this class is any more or less synergistic than most others, but that's probably because I gestalt more for versatility than synergy. Any caster better suited to utility or defense magic seems a good pairing for versatility. That gets you the will save. A good skill monkey class could open doors to creative ways to use your kinesis in combo with various checks.

Synergy wise, maybe barbarian, or a spontaneous caster with complimentary elemental builds?

[avr]

As far as kineticist-specific feats go, kinetic invocation lets you choose from a few extra wild talents (which mostly cost too much burn to be options), mobile gathering lets you walk around slowly while using gather power (not great), extra wild power lets you get prereqs fast when you expand into a different element (possible) and delay power lets you set up mines on the battlefield if you get to prepare it immediately in advance (no, you probably don’t want it). There’s one which is a feat tax if you want to make magic items IIRC.

The basic kineticist feats are point blank shot and precise shot for ranged, weapon finesse and later combat reflexes for melee if they do that, weapon focus (kinetic blast) and toughness. Maybe iron will. That’s it. They don’t want power attack or anything similar. There’s a reason they don’t get bonus feats.

Multiclassing they don’t synergise enough to be worthwhile but in gestalt…something defensive and/or with a use for swift actions might work. An investigator could cover them out of combat, with quick study studied combat could be useful and has a good will save. Their ability to use kinetic blast forever is their selling point so you don’t want something competing for standard or move actions like a major spellcaster. Maybe a bloodrager with the bloodrider archetype? Mad magic might allow kinetic blast during a rage and a horse to carry you around while you gather power could be useful.

[amethal]

Belafon wrote:

As to your other questions/complaints:

You are absolutely right. The kineticist makes most people's brains bleed when they are reading for the first (or second, or third) time. The designer was exceedingly clever in the way he set things up. Perhaps too clever for easy comprehension. Everything is written with the minimum amount of words required to make the abilities unambiguous. Writing twice as much could have made it much easier to understand.

That's a good point.

When I played a kineticist I ended up having to write out all my abilities, what the burn cost was, what I could do to reduce the burn cost for each type of ability etc. - basically an idiot's guide. I've been playing 3.x pretty much since it came out, and I've never had to do that before.

However, the character (a criminally-inclined but kind-hearted aether kineticist) was great fun to play. Even with a bomb-throwing alchemist in the party who generally out-damaged him and had spells on top.

[Temperans]

Synergy with Kineticist, hmm. Barbarian/Bloodrager can give you more Con and Dex/Str which means more damage; Also let's you mitigate Burn damage during fights.

Monk Water Dancer is super synergistic, it allows you to get a lot more AC. All while letting you get most of the Monk benefits.

The Witch archetype that gives you Kinetic Blast also has a similar effect. But instead of AC, it's more ways to mitigate burn cost (spending prepared utility spells).

The rest of the classes is more about finding what you want your secondary ability to be.

*****************
Btw, you don't have to worry about picking a martial class and Kineticist as the secondary. There is the Conducting weapon property to deal Blast damage 1/round to a target hit.

[Egil Firehair]

Kineticists get 1d6 damage (base) at first level. They get another d6 at 3, 5, 7, etc. So you don't really want to dilute the Kineticist level progression with other classes. And there isn't really any reason to do so; there are so many options that you can take your blast-all-day fellow all over the place.

I played a Fire-based Kineticist all the way through the Emerald Spire, then went off to Osirion to help fight that dreadfull undead Pharaoh (Mummy's Mask). Ended up at 17th level. and enjoyed every minute of it.

Yes it's hard to wrap your head around the mechanics, but it's worth the effort.

[VoodistMonk]

I think I like the Wayang, running with Void (obviously) and Wood... really playing off the Wayang's "Light and Dark" racial feature. The Tiefling alternative racial feature that allows it to be healed by both negative and positive energy would work thematically, as well... I dount if they have as nice of a FCB as the Wayangs', though. Not sure if trying to combine negative and positive energy is a good idea, or not, but I like the flavor of it.

For traits, I know I am taking Umbral Unmasking as a Drawback to get a third... I love traits, and the Umbral Unmasking "drawback" fits well (it is hardly an actual drawback in most any situation, anyways). Going to "fix" my light armor proficiency here with the Armor Master regional trait... open up Mirthal Breastplate for me, whence I can afford it. Not really sure on the others, yet, but probably something for me Will saves. Still have to pick a deity, and I like to grab one of their traits to lock that decision down.

Kind of unintentionally ended up with a switch-hitter, which I am ok with. Started with Void's Negative Energy ranged touch attack, and went with Weapon Finesse... since it's level 1, and it's a touch attack, I don't think I really need to focus on picking up Point Blank Shot right meow. I can use a weapon (probably a cold iron sawback kunai), and actually expect to hit with it. I chose Energize Weapon as my level 1 Infusion... giving access to a magical melee weapon, or ranged attack.

Level 3 I picked up Point Blank Shot, and the Darkness Infusion, as Wayangs have Darkvision. It really fits the theme (or possibly IS the theme). Still grabbed Eyes of the Void as a Utility Wild Talent at level 4, because I plan on picking up the Greater Darkness Infusion (eventually), and will want the Greater version of Eyes of the Void, first... as it gives me See in Darkness, and I will be able to see through my Deeper Darkness... later, of course.

Level 5, I'm thinking Toughness, or possibly Quickdraw. Toughness just seems necessary (can always retrain it later), and Quickdraw really helps with the switch-hitter thing... possibly allows me to even Gather Power and use a weapon? But I haven't picked a deity, yet... and if the deity offers decent boons, then I may need to squeeze Deific Obedience (and possibly even Diverse Obedience, as well) in by level 9, at the latest. So real estate available for feats may start getting spoken for early, depending on my choice of deity.

Expanded Element at 7 goes to Wood, and now I have some limited control over both negative and positive energy. I don't even care if it is the most optimal of combinations, but I do like the flavor. Kind of reminds of a white and black Magic deck I had once upon a time. Well, I guess it would be more accurate to say I will EVENTUALLY have some limited control over both negatibe and positive energy... when I grab Extra Wild Talent at either level 7 or 9, because I will probably choose Wood's physical blast initially. I generally reserve level 9's feat slot for Diverse Obedience so I can get my first boon at 10, but I haven't chosen a deity, yet. Once I have my 2nd Element [Wood], I can grab Entangling Infusion, which will probably happen before I pick up my Greater Darkness Infusion... and I kind of like that alternating progression.

I haven't really decided what to dedicate the rest of my Utility Wild Talents towards... between Kinetic Healing and Void Healing, I could continue the whole negative and positive energy theme. Probably throw a trait at it if I plan on doing any healing... I know how to put together a pretty decent "mundane" healer. I just wasn't planning on going down that path with this build, because it usually ends with Flickering Step/Dimensional Savant. What else do you use all those ranks in Know:Planes for? Lol.

I avoided going full Dark Elementalist "Evil" necromancer-ish route with this go. And also avoided gestalt just to try get a feel for the class. I will post the build later, for your criticisms...

[Temperans]

Well all of that seems good, but I will warn you that taking Negative Blast and Positive Blast might be really inconvenient due to the infusions available. So do think about how you plan to go about it.

But the character sounds very interesting.

[VoodistMonk]

Temperans wrote:

Well all of that seems good, but I will warn you that taking Negative Blast and Positive Blast might be really inconvenient due to the infusions available. So do think about how you plan to go about it.

But the character sounds very interesting.

Right meow, me-thinks Negative Blast and Energize Weapon will kind of be the go-to... as Negative Energy should be relatively effective on most enemies, especially at lower levels before getting Wood Blast at 7. I also decided to go with the Wooden Stake as my weapon of choice... not the most optimal, certainly fits the theme better, though.

But the Wayang FCB should keep those Void-related shenanigans decently potent, throughout, so I am not really worried about anything. By the time I get my 3rd Expanded Element at, to pretty much fill out the rest Void has to offer, my FCB will be adding +4 to the DC's of my Void game.

I could probably go with Kinetic Blade/Whip, instead of Energize Weapon... opens up Combat Reflexes and all that goes into dealing damage out of turn. Silly $#!+ like stacking Lunging Spell Touch and actual Lunge... with a whip. I think there are even some maneuver Infusions that I might be able to apply my FCB to, perhaps?

Although, I was going to save all that Kinetic Whip $#!+ for a Lashvine Leshy, because reasons...

Lashvine Leshy would do well with Void/Wood, too. I am just going to try my creepy Wayang in Mithral Breastplate wielding Wooden Stakes for this first one.

[avr]

Pushing infusion & similar don't use saves so the FCB won't help them. It's for things like suffocate, undead grip, or spindle infusion with a negative blast. It's actually surprising how few void wild talents or infusions with saves there are.

I don't think you can use extra wild talent to get another simple blast. Simple blasts don't have level 1, they have level -.

[Temperans]

Kinetic Blasts are not "talents". So no you wont get another with Extra Talent. You have to get them via Expanded Element.

Also yeah it's quite surprising. I had not payed attention to it before since I myself never stated out a void character.

[Belafon]

Kinetic Blasts are wild talents. (See my comment above about how the designer was perhaps too clever in the way he made kineticist abilities able to be split into multiple categories with minimal wording changes.)

However, Extra Wild Talent specifically forbids you from taking a blast or defense wild talent with the feat.

[Melkiador]

The weirdest thing about the class to me is how much better it is at melee than ranged attacking. Take kinetic blade and weapon finesse at first level and you have a character that hits decent in melee and range.

Using gather power to not take burn with kinetic blade is pretty easy and natural to me. And once you hit level 5, infusion specialization takes care of the regular burn

Before level 5, you can play with range to be relevant to your enemies:
Greater than 60 feet away? Run closer
60 to 35 feet away? Move 30 feet closer, then blast
30 to 15 feet away? Blast, then move into melee
10 feet away? 5 foot step, then Gather Power, then Kinetic Blade.

[Temperans]

Belafon wrote:

Kinetic Blasts are wild talents. (See my comment above about how the designer was perhaps too clever in the way he made kineticist abilities able to be split into multiple categories with minimal wording changes.)

However, Extra Wild Talent specifically forbids you from taking a blast or defense wild talent with the feat.

Ahh I missed it since its on a single line. Well played devs, well played.

Also, @Melkiador the Dash and Whip Blasts also help with this. I love the dash because its a pseudo teleport, if the GM allows it you can use it to escape.

[VoodistMonk]

Bladed Rush definitely makes Kinetic Blade more appealing than Energize Weapon. Plus, I don't know about how one would Gather Power if they were using a manufactured weapon... possibly Quickdraw? If Quickdraw is not enough to allow one to mitigate the Burn cost of Energize Weapon via Gather Power, then Kinetic Blade is pretty much the required path to take.

Would it be wise to use the level 7 Expanded Element to expand Void... pick up Void's physical blast there, giving me an energy blast and physical blast nice and early. Wait for level 16 to pick up Wood as my 2nd element, and the Positive Blast?

[Temperans]

Quickdraw with a melee weapon would fix the problem on the first turn; but not subsequent turns. However if you use Quickdraw and Blink-back belt with thrown weapons, you can do it every turn.

As someone stated before when you get infusion reduction you don't have to worry about gather power.

As for what element to get at level 7, that honestly depends on your goals. If you want a wood element talent sooner rather than later I suggest taking it at 7. If not taking it at 16 is fine.

[ShadowcatX]

As an aside, don't discount the elements just because you're playing a character without an elemental theme, I think Aether / Air would make a better Sith than Aether / Void. Air's defense can be fluffed as deflecting blaster shots, the air kinetic blast is Sith lightning, and Darth Thanaton was able to use the force to fly.

[Doompatrol]

ShadowcatX wrote:

As an aside, don't discount the elements just because you're playing a character without an elemental theme, I think Aether / Air would make a better Sith than Aether / Void. Air's defense can be fluffed as deflecting blaster shots, the air kinetic blast is Sith lightning, and Darth Thanaton was able to use the force to fly.

That's something to heavily consider. You can refluff air to whatever you want, you're not a cleric or Druid whose required to worship the elements if they take air.

Given how kinetic blade works for aether, you can use any object as a lightsaber, I would ask the GM to ignore the damage to object used when using it this way just for theme, so it doesn't get smashed up every fight, you're not gaining any mechanical advantage, whether the object is broken or not you do the same damage.

One other trick is to take only the first familiar utility. Have that familiar take the sage archetype and now you've got a knowledgeable familiar in your head, all the familiar bonuses without the risk of them being killed.

[VoodistMonk]

I got distracted from my Wayang Kineticist putting together a Kinetic Knight gestalt with an Iron Tyrant Antipaladin.

Kinetic Knights can attune to a shield to use it with all their Kinetic Blade/Whip/Gather Power stuffs... and Iron Tyrant Antipaladins get bonus feats specifically for shields, as well as a bunch of Fiendish Bonded heavy armor related goodness. Ends up full BAB, all good saves, Resolve, with lots of flavor and opportunity... I haven't decided on a race or any of the nitty-gritty details, yet, but I am pretty happy with what it has going on, thusfar.

Even a relatively basic understanding of the class really opens one's eyes to its potential. I don't even know what it is, exactly, that was hitching me up so badly before. The class really isn't THAT complicated.

For the Wayang vanilla Kineticist, I think I will expand Void at 7 to get its physical blast... which will still benefit from the FCB, me-thinks. Wood/Positive Energy is going to have to wait until 15. Probably pick up Quickdraw at level 5, and actually try the whole switch-hitter thing. Nothing crazy, but I think it works. I doubt the Entangle Infusion will be worth using at level(s) 15+, so I will probably be dedicated mostly to darkness and gravity shenanigans, with a secondary focus in all the interesting healing options available through having both Negative and Postive energies from Void/Wood, respectively.

I look forward to finalizing the Elemental Annihilator/Scarred Witch Doctor gestalt... probably a minimum of 28 Con, because 9th level Con-casting deserves a +9 Con modofier... of course.

[Temperans]

Yep that's how it goes with Kineticist once it clicks it just opens up tremendously.

That Kinetic Knight seems really interesting. I also wouldn't know what is effective at 15+, but good luck.

*****************
Doompatrol there are a couple of ways to get around the Aether Kinetic Blade damage problem.
1) Buy a bunch of really cheap disposable items, but random debris from the road works as well.

2) Buy some something with hardness >10, preferably adamantine. The damaging object rule says energy damage gets halved before hardness. Force damage is energy damage. Thus a 10d6+1/2 con blast (~65 damage) would actually deal ~32.5. Trying to bypass hardness 10-20+ that is just ~12.5-20.5 damage, at max level with a maximized blast.

3) Actually use the Impervious enchantment that doubles weapon enhancement hardness and HP. The 20 hardness adamantine becomes 32 hardness with just a +3 Impervious.

4) Use Liquid Glass (repairs itself 2 hp/day even when destroyed).

5) Invest in craft to repair objects.

Etc.

[Melkiador]

Quote:

Ineffective Weapons

Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.

Talk that over with your GM, but in theory you should be able to use a rope for your kinetic blade. A chain also sounds suitable to me. Another option is to grab a small bag of sand. You can just grab some sand to use as your object. No matter how much damage you do to the sand, it will still be sand.

Honestly, I don't know why the object even needs to take damage. It's wrapped in telekinetic fibers so tight that the special materials of the item don't count. I feel like it should be a common houserule to be able to ignore the self-damaging part. It's not fun and isn't needed for balancing purposes.

[Temperans]

Melkiador wrote:

Talk that over with your GM, but in theory you should be able to use a rope for your kinetic blade. A chain also sounds suitable to me. Another option is to grab a small bag of sand. You can just grab some sand to use as your object. No matter how much damage you do to the sand, it will still be sand.

Honestly, I don't know why the object even needs to take damage. It's wrapped in telekinetic fibers so tight that the special materials of the item don't count. I feel like it should be a common houserule to be able to ignore the self-damaging part. It's not fun and isn't needed for balancing purposes.

The balance problem is that force is not resisted by many things. Making it a much better energy type than all others if it didn't have some limitation. In this case, you pack the item with so much Aether that all but the toughest items start to to break down from the strain.

It's also why the Aether composite blast works as an amplifier instead of dealing regular damage.

[Melkiador]

Temperans wrote:

The balance problem is that force is not resisted by many things. Making it a much better energy type than all others if it didn't have some limitation. In this case, you pack the item with so much Aether that all but the toughest items start to to break down from the strain.

Telekinetic Blast doesn't do force damage. It deals bludgeoning, piercing or slashing. Balance-wise it's the same as earth blast, except earth blast doesn't require you to have an object.

Quote:

It's also why the Aether composite blast works as an amplifier instead of dealing regular damage.

The composite blast is force (or +1), but also doesn't require an object, like telekinetic blast does.

Seriously, there is no balance reason to require the objects to receive damage. It seems to be all fluff. But it isn't fun. It's just punishing for no good reason.

[avr]

The easiest way to get around the aether kinetic blade damaging stuff problem is to have a purse of coppers, or a quiver of arrows to use - sure they get damaged but who cares? This also ensures that extremely tidy lairs don't leave you weaponless.

[VoodistMonk]

avr wrote:

The easiest way to get around the aether kinetic blade damaging stuff problem is to have a purse of coppers, or a quiver of arrows to use - sure they get damaged but who cares? This also ensures that extremely tidy lairs don't leave you weaponless.

I had already determined the Efficient Quiver was necessary for such things... it's in my notes. Lol.

But I was/am pretty set on using rope... even if it gets damaged, who gives a $#!+? It's 3' of a stupid 50' rope... should last you a little while... at least until you can buy a Robe of Infinite Twine. The Equipment Trick for rope is near worth the investment in its use, alone.

[Doompatrol]

There's no need for any special tricks with the aether blade, you can just use a broken item.

Unless I've missed something, Kinetic Knight is a trap option. You lose the options for range which a big loss, a kineticist can use a buckler so the shield is not a great advantage. Gather power may require 2 hands to use but it's not an attack, you still only attack with one hand so retain the use of a buckler. The real kicker is that it's worse at what it is suppose to excel at because it cannot empower, a normal kineticist can spend burn to add 50% damage to its melee full attack, not just range.

[Melkiador]

That’s a good point. A “destroyed” object is still an object. It’s not like it evaporates. And it’s not like there’s a minimum size for objects. Technically dust floating in the air is an object.

[avr]

That misses a chunk yeah Doompatrol. Free kinetic blade without burn at level 1, assorted free feat-ish things and free infusions, the samurai's resolve class feature. If you're into the water element in particular your elemental defence stacks with armor and shield which it normally wouldn't.

Empower blast and other metakinesis is the trap; burn which isn't reduced by infusion spec (or anything else until level 19) and which you generally can't gather power for if you're in melee.

[Melkiador]

I don’t know if I’d go as far as to call it a trap option because it does get some nice stuff, but I do prefer the more versatile play style of the regular melee kineticist.

It’s more like playing a completely different class. It has heavy armor and no range so can dump dexterity. It has samurai’s resolve making it harder to kill or control. It doesn’t have as many burn-dumps, so can adopt a low burn play style. It gets a lot of extra substance infusions, potentially giving a lot of versatility. Really one of the only problems with the archetype is that we never got enough good substance infusions to support it.

[Temperans]

Yep Kinetic Knight has a lot of good things going for it. Yeah you don't get range. But you are able to use TWF using full Str, which is something only Rangers and Vigilante get normally. There is also the fact you can go for tower shields and have the feats to actually invest into it, all because of the really good blast damage. Also lv 13 lets you do a charge with a full attack (even if it does cost 2 burn to do it). Aka teleport pounce.

Aonprd says "light or heavy shield", which means no tower shield. But that still means being able to use all the fun shield based feats/abilities.

So yeah Kinetic Knight > Kineticist if you want a cool armored tank with a cool energy blade.

[Doompatrol]

avr wrote:

That misses a chunk yeah Doompatrol. Free kinetic blade without burn at level 1, assorted free feat-ish things and free infusions, the samurai's resolve class feature. If you're into the water element in particular your elemental defence stacks with armor and shield which it normally wouldn't.

Empower blast and other metakinesis is the trap; burn which isn't reduced by infusion spec (or anything else until level 19) and which you generally can't gather power for if you're in melee.

I'm more referring to things that would distinguish it from a normal Kineticist that just builds for melee. The free blade is so you can actually do something early game otherwise you would take burn every time you move. That's more a trade of range for melee, normal kineticist has a 0 burn ranged attack, knight has it's 0 burn blade which doesn't reduce the burn on things like whip, which neither build can reliably use until 8. The free infusions are somewhat redundant when you don't really have that many options without range, the normal kineticist gets to pick all the melee options and can still take things like foe throw, impale and fragmentation and no access to one of the best utilities of the class, ride the blast.

Alright, you get an enhancement bonus to your defence in those specific instance of a water kinetic knight.

Metakinesis is reduced by gather power and yes you will rarely use it with melee, you still have a buffer and the option to spend burn. 50% is a huge flippin bonus when you really need to nova. That alone makes me question why would you ever play a Kinetic Knight unless you're dead set on heavy armor.

If it gave you some interesting unique infusions but a normal kineticist can make effectively the same thing but more options and more damage. I've played an aether kineticist with blade who want into air, I'd never play one without blade as it's the best damaging option they've got and I don't see how in any instance, a kinetic knight would have played any differently except giving me less. The only thing I used my buffer for was free empower on my hasted full attack.

[Melkiador]

The kinetic knight can use substance infusions with his blade at level 1. Its not like they have iterative attacks at that level, so that’s pretty decent as a “full attack”. And with infusion specialization you can use substance infusions earlier without paying burn.

Like I said, the real problem is that most elements don’t have enough decent substance infusions.

[Doompatrol]

Melkiador wrote:

The kinetic knight can use substance infusions with his blade at level 1. Its not like they have iterative attacks at that level, so that’s pretty decent as a “full attack”. And with infusion specialization you can use substance infusions earlier without paying burn.

Like I said, the real problem is that most elements don’t have enough decent substance infusions.

As I said, they trade the 0 burn range for 0 burn melee. All that means is they can apply it earlier to the blade that a nornal kineticist could already apply to a blast, I didn't want to make the point but at earlier levels I would argue ranged is almost always better and when it comes to infusions like entangling, locking them down at range is so you don't have to face them in melee, that's is an option the Knight doesn't get outside of mid-late game reach.

[VoodistMonk]

"... when it comes to infusions like entangling, locking them down at range is so you don't have to face them in melee..."

I don't even know what those words mean, as I do not understand the language of cowards. Lol. To engage the enemy in melee is the only reason I get out of bed.

[Melkiador]

For the kinetic knight, locking them down in melee means you are keeping them off your ranged party members. Archetype designed for tanking can actually tank.

Maybe that's the disconnect here. Kinetic Knight does have some attack alternate abilities, but those are mostly just allowing for the knight esthetic. On the other hand, Kinetic Knight has a lot of defensive abilities added. If you're looking for a melee striker, that's not exactly what it is. It's more of a tank than anything else.