VMC Cleric gives you the Cleric's ablity to spontaneously cast certain spells.
It does not give you the Cleric's spellcasting, so I have no idea what Mystic Theurge would be advancing... you don't actually have any divine casting ability to advance.
I am amazed at how hard people try to weasel their way into Mystic Theurge... I have never found it that appealing, except for necromancers.
let's try and make sense of what is going on here:
but first if you use vmc (cleric) you give up your 7th level feat. so i don't see you taking the arcane discovery at level 7 as a feat anyway.
the cleric vmc allow a prepared caster (such as a wizard) to use the cleric spontaneous casting with his spells. that mean h give up a spell of x level and can spontaneously cast a cure spell of same level. since it doesn't say anything else it changes that spell is still cast as a wizard spell.- arcane spell. so you have only one caster class that you can level up.
the faith magic on the other hand is kinda nifty. it specifically call out that the spell you cast is a divine spell. with it having to be a spell 2 levels under your highest the earliest it can be taken is 7 for a 2nd level divine spell. what this does allow is say a witch 3/wizard 7 to count his faith spell casting as divine and thus he can cast 2nd level arcane spells (from witch) and 2nd level divine spells (from faith magic) to get both his wizard class and with class advance..but i think it would be a lot easier to just get a cleric and wizard 3 and start the prc at level 7 rather then 10...
end result of the first at level 20 would be witch caster level 13 wizard 17. while the cleric\wizard (if spread evenly) would clock at 15 each ( or 13\17) honestly never reaching 9th level casting kinda make this prc worse then straight up caster. unless you really must have that many lower level spells.
I am amazed at how hard people try to weasel their way into Mystic Theurge... I have never found it that appealing, except for necromancers.
Not being appealing is exactly why people try so hard to make it appealing with things like early access.
VM's answer is about the same as mine in the other thread I think.
What would work is wizard 7 / cleric 1 with faith magic; you'd lose one level off your wizard spellcasting but only one, unlike the wiz 3 / cleric 3 entry.
Originally the designers were cool with letting spell like abilities count for prerequisites. It's unclear why that decision was reversed. avr's answer doesn't seem problematic to me. It's certainly not overpowered, and it starts rather late. You'd be a slightly behind wizard who can cast spells like a really behind cleric. A pure wizard with the leadership feat and a cleric cohort would be a lot more effective.
Even if you gestalt 5 or 10 levels of Oracle and Sorcerer before entering Mystic Theurge, it still sucks. Lol.
But that is purely my opinion, which is as worthless as Mystic Theurge...
the way i see it, if you need more low level spells, it's just easier to scribe scrolls (and add the spells you need from divine list via other means). there are spring loaded scroll case for a reason (and you can have as many as you want at the same time, also can scribe more then one spell to a scroll)
What you get from multiclassing two caster classes (before mystic theurge):
More class skills
More weapon and armor proficiencies
Better saves
More daily spells
More spells known
More low-level abilities
What you get from mystic theurge itself:
More daily spells
More spells known
Eventually spell synthesis
Yes, it comes at a high price. As it should. Players often put a lot of emphasis on what they lose, and pay less attention to what they gain - or what they lose due to opportunity cost. A lot of alternatives have be called out (personally I like Secret of Magical Discipline or just playing a witch), but while they cost much less, they also provide less. IMO mystic theurge still has its niche.
All it offers is spells. If that is all you are looking for, then it might fit for you.
If you like your class to offer literally anything other than just spells, Mystic Theurge is not going to continue any of the fun, useful, unique features that make your character worth playing.
Spell Synthesis isn't worth the price you pay, no matter what spells you possibly find to combine... you paid too high a price, and everyone knows it when they see it. They're all going to laugh at you. You multiclassed full casters, gave up ten levels to combine lame 5th level spell slots, and can combine two spells ONE TIME A DAY. Lol.
Cool story, bro. Says literally any single class full caster, ever.
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Mystic Theurge gets a lot of stick that it doesn't deserve imho. I played one under D&D3.5e, which didn't even get any of the special abilities that the PF version gets, up to level 13. I enjoyed it immensely. I was also the only character to survive the campaign because I had a spell for every occasion.
Getting all those spells gives a ton of options in a single character. But of course it changes the character's approach to adventures compared to being a single classed full caster.
YMMV.
ETA: regarding the OP's question, avr seems to have the solution. Wiz 7 / Clr 1 + Faith Magic.
Mystic Theurge gets a lot of stick that it doesn't deserve imho. I played one under D&D3.5e, which didn't even get any of the special abilities that the PF version gets, up to level 13. I enjoyed it immensely. I was also the only character to survive the campaign because I had a spell for every occasion.
Getting all those spells gives a ton of options in a single character. But of course it changes the character's approach to adventures compared to being a single classed full caster.
YMMV.
ETA: regarding the OP's question, avr seems to have the solution. Wiz 7 / Clr 1 + Faith Magic.
I played one in 3.5 as well, and it was fine. 3.5 also had Archivist that pretty much did anything the mystic theurge could do but better.
In pathfinder, compared to 3.5, the only extra thing they get is combined spell, while all other spellcasting classes get neat abilities that scale with class level:
- Wizards get their Wizard School abilities and dicoveries.
- Clerics get their channel energy and their domain abilities get stronger.
- Witches get their hexes and major hexes.
- Druid stays pretty much the same, which means they don't get access to better shapeshifting.
When you get on mystic theurge i feel like you trade a tad too much for what you get and some of the things you get is not even good.
- Better armor proficiency? That's neat, you're a half wizard.
- Better weapon proficiency? So you're telling me that you plan on fighting with weapon with a class that has bad BBA progression?
- Better skill? Not really, you gain more class skill, but that's it.
- Better save? God tier Will save, but the rest is actually pretty bad, your reflex is gonna be abyssmal and your fortitude plain worse than a cleric.
I feel like Theurge just lack class abilities. Their spellcasting is... fine, i guess. You lose on big powerful spell, your spell DC are probably lower to gain a very large supply of lower level spell.
In the end, the only thing that carries Mystic theurge out of the gutter is the fact that they are still casters in an edition where casters dominate. Doesn't mean it's a good choice.
IMO, the best way to solve Mystic theurge would probably to make an interesting class out of it, like the archivist from 3.5, or some kind of 6th level caster that focus on fusing spell effect. Give them 3/4 BBA and we finally get red mages!
Make an interesting class out of Mystic Theurge? They did, it's actually a Sorcerer archetype called False Priest. Lol.
False priest looks alright, but on the other hand, it's a sorcerer... :(
I want mah red mage!
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A Mystic Theurge is a generalist that can always do something, but is noticeably weaker than a specialist that is a part of a well-rounded group of specialists.
In the typical AP a specialist is way better. You don't need someone that can help every time, you need someone that can resolve the problems he was made to resolve.
A Mystic Theurge needs a very open-ended and unstructured campaign where people can choose what they want to do and the pace at which they do it to shine. The only advantage he has is versatility, but if you have to constantly push to overcome ever-higher obstacles versatility doesn't matter.
Mystic Theurge can be made as quite the specialist... just most people seem not to specialize in the one thing Mystic Theurge happens to be good at... necromancy.
Buckets upon buckets of necromancy is kind of the Mystic Theurge's "thing"...
It's unclear why that decision was reversed.
Like most questionable decisions, it was because PFS didn't like gming for it.
It's unclear why that decision was reversed.
Maybe they didn't want people go into Evangelist at second level? Or Eldritch Knight at third level? The FAQ may have not been mainly about Mystic Theurge!
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Originally the designers were cool with letting spell like abilities count for prerequisites. It's unclear why that decision was reversed.
FAQ updated: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qowEdit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.
SKR talks about how the Design Team was trying to make SLAs function exactly like spells wherever possible. Which includes things like qualifying for prestige classes.
This thread has a few designer responses about the reversal. It's not explicit but the subtext is "yep, it was too powerful" and "whoops, that backfired." Because using SLAs for prestige class early entry is not something you can do with spells, it ended up having the exact opposite effect from the goal and made SLAs even more different from spells.
Even if that was the case, the earliest you could enter evangelist would still be level 4 with the old decision.
Why?
using SLAs for prestige class early entry is not something you can do with spells, it ended up having the exact opposite effect from the goal and made SLAs even more different from spells.
I also think the original FAQ wasn't intended (or forseen) to do that at all - looking at the old FAQ on the Wayback Machine, the question it answers is "Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?" Emphasis mine. It was only the interaction with the (released at around the same time) FAQ designating all SLAs as arcane or divine that created the loophole.
As VM said (other thread), why are you even arguing about the MT when it really isn't worth even considering?
The real question is: If you think MT "isn't worth even considering", why do you participate in these threads? Your entire post is extremely hypocritical, because you can simply hide the threads (or just leave them unread) if you don't care about the topic.
You don't have a right to govern what we disuss and what not, nor do you get to decide what we deem worthy of consideration. This thread is for discussion about MT early access, if you don't want to, or unable to, participate in that discussion, just stay away from the thread.
if MT is worth it then defend it!
It really depends on the type of character you are going for… in most instances, mystic theurge just gives up far too much and receives far too little… atleast at first glance…
combined spells allows for some increased versatility by allowing you to use spell slots from either casting class to prepare and cast spells for the other class… this might not seem like a great feature, and if your on a campaign where downtime and crafting is plentiful it’s largely useless… but if your in a campaign where either crafting isn’t permitted or you simply don’t get the downtime needed to create a stockpile of scrolls it’s a great way to increase your spell availability for whichever class you decide to focus more on.
The 10th level ability spell synthesis is the real winner for mystic theurge though… the ability to simultaneously cast two spells… even if it is only once per day… if you choose your two spells well you very well could end just about any encounter in an instant… you could also use this to combine spells with synergistic effects to essentially create a much more potent spell all without changing the normal casting time…
Of course the drawback to MT is that that is all it get, and it’s big worth it ability doesn’t come into play until the last level of the prestige class which for most campaigns would be at the tail end of the campaign… MT is good only for those who want a simple pure caster experience with no extra bells and whistles from feature rich class designs… in other words… 3e wizards…
Wizard actually doesn't seem like a very good fit for Mystic Theurge... the opposition schools seem in direct, well, opposition to the spirit of versatility offered by Mystic Theurge. And Mystic Theurge neither continues your Wizard class features allowing you free Arcane Discoveries to pick up Opposition Research, nor does it offer any sort of bonus feats for you to pick up Extra Discovery or whatever it's called.
The lack of bonus feats really, really sucks for the Mystic Theurge, because it offers you literally no help. You are either completely satified with the class features of the classes that got you into Mystic Theurge, or you will spend your precious few character's HD feats on picking up what you lost.
If they had offered bonus feats that just can't be combat feats, but could possibly be, say, Extra Revelation or Improved Familiar or Spell Focus... anything, really. Literally offer any support other than swapping low level spell slots or a 1/day show-stopper?
Mystic Theurge flat out does not offer enough to replace giving up your Bloodline Powers and Bloodline Feats, or Revelations or full Curse progression... in my opinion. Sure, you could wesr that robe or amulet or whatever for a few more virtual levels on your Bloodline... spend the rest of your feats on Extra Revelation to get back what you would have gotten for free. Hope you didn't have anything planned feat-wise otherwise.
Wizard actually doesn't seem like a very good fit for Mystic Theurge... the opposition schools seem in direct, well, opposition to the spirit of versatility offered by Mystic Theurge.
Well, there are elemental schools, and archetypes trading away the school feature (which is less of a loss if you don't reach the higher level power anyway). And while universalist wizard is often considered a bad choice, the lost spell slots matter less if you get a bunch of additional daily slots from mystic theurge. Finally, both being an universalist wizard and knowing additional spells from the other class make crafting easier.
I hadn't really considered crafting with a Mystic Theurge. Well, other than "crafting" undead minions using Ryze Kuja's guide to necromancy perfection. Lol.
Had pretty good luck crafting with a False Priest Sorcerer, actually. The Impossible Bloodline has some fun crafting stuffs for ignoring crafting requirements, False Priest has some fun options for accessing divine spells... I think Hepha went into Pathfinder Savant, and even picked up a level of Cyphermage somewhere, too.
But Pathfinder Savant and Cyphermage, both, offer fun/unique things that make going into them worth it. Mystic Theurge just offers you what you were doing previously, just with fewer features and more spell slots.
For a Mystic Theurge feel, just play a Spell Sage Wizard and make a bunch of scrolls of your Spell Study'd spells.