Honestly, my best advise... don't.
But, if you insist... here's a Phalanx Soldier (Fighter) that has the entire Mobile Stronghold style chain by level 8:
Phalanx Soldier
1(level): Combat Reflexes
1(class): Shield Focus
2. Stand Firm +1
2(class): Mobile Bulwark Style
3. Phalanx Fighting
3(level): Bodyguard
4(class): Mobile Fortress
5. Ready Pike +1, 1/day
5(level): Iron Will
6. Stand Firm +2
6(class): Improved Initiative
7. Deft Shield -1
7(level): Lightning Reflexes
8(class): Mobile Stronghold
9. Ready Pike +2, 2/day
9. Shield Ally
9(level):
A Shaman's Apprentice Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoos and the Fate's Favored trait starts with Darkvision, the Endurance feat, and a +2 luck bonus to all saves. A bite attack if you want it for emergencies is just a trait away, too.
The Bardiche has Brace and Reach, does 1D10 19-20/×2, has a built-in +2 vs Sunder attempts against it... Whipwood can raise that another +2 to a +4 vs Sunder attempts against it... don't want people breaking your $#!+...
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So you're gonna get a lot of people telling you not to. You can probably ignore them as long as you understand that this isn't a computer game.
Before we go into anything else, what do you mean by "Tank"? Are you coming from an old-school DnD perspective or more of a WoW perspective. The WoW perspective one won't work.
I'm currently playing a very effective Tank. I'm playing a 12th level Bloodrager as the only front-line character in a party with a buff-focused Bard, a damage focused Gunslinger and a Teleportation sub-school Wizard.
My AC is woefully bad, but I have boatloads of HP, good saves, Fire Resistance and a 20% miss-chance . In order to stop enemies running past me I have Reach and Combat Reflexes.
I also - and this is important - hit like a Freight Train.
The Gunslinger hits way more often than I do, and overall does about 60% of our group's damage. But if an enemy wants to get past me to the Gunslinger or the squishy casters they risk 7d6+28 damage, or 13d6+56 damage on a crit ... with a 15-20 crit range. That's enough damage to one-shot mooks and make pretty quick work of tougher enemies. Even with a 50% hit-rate that's enough to make enemies think twice.
I also make liberal use of the Strength Surge rage power to move enemies around the battlefield to keep my allies safe.
The main thing to remember is that enemies need a reason to target you over your allies. Maybe you're holding a doorway and you're the only target, but you can't rely on tight corridors all the time, and you need to make yourself a priority target.
Besides that, Paladins are the best Tanks, Warpriests and Clerics can be good too. Barbarians make great tanks, but the Bloodrager is probably better .
There's 2-3 things you need to do to be a good tank. The old-school D&D one that Mr Cha refers to just does damage and can take a hit, Warcraft adds 'and can draw aggro'. That last is harder in PF than in Warcraft - is it required for you TCFD?
Getting substantial reach and making your attacks of opportunity hurt as described above is one way of drawing enemy aggression to you. Being the one who hands out ongoing buffs to your allies is another if your GM pays attention - anything with inspire courage or similar (bards, skalds, exemplar brawlers etc.) fits that method, as do aid-another focused characters. Then there's out-and-out mind control. This isn't as effective as in Warcraft but there are a couple of ways.
So what is it? A simple attack & defence build is pretty easy as a barbarian or paladin or similar, or are you after a build that protects others too?
There is more than one way to approach this, for sure.
I like to use those Phalanx Soldier Fighters as NPC's, often paired Disciple of the Pike Cavaliers, when I need to block a hallway or guard a gate... and pretty much any other "NONE SHALL PASS" opportunity.
Disciple of the Pike Cavaliers get Weapon Training, opening up things like Cut/Smash From the Air, and Advanced Weapon Training options.
The most noteworthy thing about the Phalanx Soldier is at level 3 they can wield a polearm/spear as a one-handed weapon... without it losing its Reach! So 4 levels of Phalanx Soldier is all you need. Grab Unhindering Shield, and you could even be a Swashbuckler with Reach.
A Swashbuckler isn't a terrible tank, actually... you can pick up Resolve via Deeds of Renown. The Swashbuckler I played went several decently high levels (9-11) without getting touched due to his ability to negate or dodge incoming attacks. He didn't even wear armor, and was highly mobile... an absolute menace on the battlefield.
Your typical Invulnerable Rager with Come and Get Me is always an option. Depending on the needs of the party/campaign, VMC Rogue gets your Trapfinding and Uncanny Dodge back... some Sneak Attack if you have a reliable flanking buddy.
Speaking of flanking buddies, what do you feel about companions for your tank? When it comes to soaking HP damage, nobody does it like someone far away summoning $#!+... I'm kidding. But a companion isn't a bad idea, and Druids can be a bear, a dinosaur, an octopus...
synth summoner: ton of hp (with the eilodon suit hp added), easy to get very very high ac, size, reach, resistances and nasty attacks.
at levels 9~ can DD around to get to where he need to be.
really summoner by itself is broken, and synth is a whole line of easy-pisy if done right.
What about a Soulthief Vitalist? The idea here is that your party pools all their HP together, and you replenish this pool by siphoning HP from your enemies.
I have a PFS legal Armor master 4 fighter, Warpriest(community domain) saving shield Paladin 1 totalling level 6 (7 now maybe? its been a while since corona kicked up) He is rocking an almost 40 ac with his tower shield, his gauntlet is his dieties weapon, he pushes around a 30 intimidate with Antagonize. His job is to not get hit, while simultaneously protecting the party. He uses antagonize, bodyguard and in harms way to keep people safe, the saving shield paladin smite to reduce damage further against party members during boss fights, and his community domain changes his aid another to a +4 so body guard becomes quite useful. He also has covering shield, allowing me to dramatically boost nearby squishy targets ac to near unhittable numbers. He does little to no damage, but is an ac monster that truly can't be ignored, thus "drawing aggro" from intelligent enemies. I could go look at the file and give more of a break down, but this is the key points, if you need more info let me know lol.
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Antagonize (feat).
Come and Get Me (Rage Power).
Broken Wing Gambit (teamwork feat).
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Compel hostility (spell)
Phasic challenge (spell)
Lock gaze (spell)
Confusion (any of several spells) + attacking the enemy
There's ways of stopping the enemy moving - tripping, grappling, scorpion style, etc. etc. - which leaves the enemy less choices of who to attack.
A Pack Rager Barbarian could take Antagonize as a feat, Come and Get Me as a Rage Power, as well as use Raging Tactician to give themself and all their allies Broken Wing Gambit. Lol.
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When it comes to "Tanking" in PF, I prefer to take an offensive approach: Focus on causing a crapton of damage to the point that you cannot be ignored, while also debuffing enemies to the point that they cannot cause damage. And for this, I recommend a TWF Quick Dirty Tricks Master with either UncRogue4/SlayerX (if you want to use weapons) or SiegebreakerFighter2/BrawlerX (if you want to fight Unarmed, and be pushy-shovy-trippy as well).
If either of these sound interesting to you, I can make some build ideas for you.
Life Spirit Shaman with a Protector Familiar...
Protector Familiar shares HP, Life Spirit gives the Familiar Fast Healing, Life Link turns the whole party into a pool of your HP...
Choose Lore for your Wandering Spirit, and grab Arcane Enlightenment as a Wandering Hex... now you have access to Infernal Healing. Make a wand of it for your own Fast Healing. Lol.
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Honestly surprised no one has suggested a monk build yet… when it comes to raw AC tanks, Monk holds the top spot despite being unarmored, it is quite easy to push a monks AC up over 60, and it doesn’t even require sticking with monk past the first level either… A Monk:1/Kineticis:X can be a rather destructive tank… just focus Wisdom, Constitution, and Dexterity and your golden… take Water as your first element for Kineticist to get you a touch attack (via cold blast), access to a powerful healing ability (via kinetic healer), and most importantly a huge shield bonus to your AC (shroud of water) that doesn’t negate Monks AC. Pick up kinetic blade and kinetic whip ASAP, then use kinetic whip as your primary source of damage from that point on. You’ll have an insanely high AC, a sizable chunk of HP, and will be dealing heavy damage every round against touch AC with a reach weapon. When you get to pick a second element go with Earth for some DR or Aether for some temp HP.
Added bonus benefit from an RP perspective… if the rest of your party is wearing any sort of armor or caring shields, you appear to be the “squishy” one… thus more likely to be targeted first… no need to pry you out of a tin can to hit you.
When it comes to "Tanking" in PF, I prefer to take an offensive approach: Focus on causing a crapton of damage to the point that you cannot be ignored, while also debuffing enemies to the point that they cannot cause damage. And for this, I recommend a TWF Quick Dirty Tricks Master with either UncRogue4/SlayerX (if you want to use weapons) or SiegebreakerFighter2/BrawlerX (if you want to fight Unarmed, and be pushy-shovy-trippy as well).
If either of these sound interesting to you, I can make some build ideas for you.
I'm not the OP, but these sound really interesting. I'm interested by those character concepts, could you post a rough build?
When it comes to "Tanking" in PF, I prefer to take an offensive approach: Focus on causing a crapton of damage to the point that you cannot be ignored, while also debuffing enemies to the point that they cannot cause damage.
I don't have a problem with that build (it sounds fun), but it's not a "Tank". Like, it's fine, but kind-of the opposite of what the OP is asking for.
I should elaborate a bit on my build above I guess, because I too deal a crapton of damage. The difference is the focus of the build. Almost all my feats, equipment, spells and other choices have been about buffing my defensive capabilities. At level 12 I have a +1 weapon and a +2 STR belt (~6,000gp), while defensively I have a +4 CON item, a Ring of Energy Resistance, +1 Fortification armour and a lesser Cloak of Displacement (~60,000gp). My playstyle is defensive as well, my main tactic is to stand in front of the party and ready attacks in case anyone comes near.
So your PC could be a "Tank" as well if played as one, but it sounds more like a primary-damage-dealer/debuffer. Again, nothing wrong with playing a damage-dealer or debuffer, but they're different things.
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"Tanking" in Pathfinder is a loose concept, because you can't force monsters to attack you like you can with Agro-coefficient multipliers on attacks or actual Taunting in WoW or other MMORPG's. Antagonize is your best option for "forcing" an enemy to attack you, but it's only once per mook every 24 hours and lasts 1 round. The idea of Tanking revolves around protecting your squishy allies by soaking up the damage from enemies either through massive HP or insane AC/Saves, and Debuffing enemies to the point that they can't cause damage is a similar playstyle if you flip "Tanking" over and look at its underbelly. This is more of a "Combat Control" style of tanking, where you simply remove their ability to hit you and your allies.
Half-Orc Brawler11/SiegebreakerFighter2
Go Brawler to level 11, then get Siegebreaker 1 & 2 at levels 12 and 13, then go back into Brawler at level 14+, or w/e you want.
I'm only using a 15-pt buy here.
Str 21 (16 base, +2 racial, +3 Level4/8/12)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
Racial Traits:
Swap Sacred Tattoo (+1 Luck bonus to all saves) for Orc Ferocity.
Traits:
Fate's Favored (+1 to any Luck Bonus)
Heirloom Weapon (+2 CMB to Dirty Tricks)
Cestus or Spiked Gauntlet (or any weapon you can do a Dirty Trick with, but I would suggest a Cestus or Spiked Gauntlet-- but this is totally up to you) +4 Dueling (Dirty Trick)
lvl1 Dirty Fighting
lvl2 Bonus Combat Feat: Power Attack
lvl3 Improved Dirty Trick, Maneuver Training: DirtyTrick +1
lvl4
lvl5 Combat Reflexes, Bonus Combat Feat: Pummeling Style
lvl6
lvl7 Quick Dirty Trick, Maneuver Training: DT +2, BullRush +1
lvl8 Bonus Combat Feat: Pummeling Charge
lvl9 Greater Dirty Trick
lvl10
lvl11 Cornugon Smash, Bonus Combat Feat: Dirty Trick Master, Maneuver Training: DT +3, BullRush +2, Trip +1
lvl12 <--- Take your first level of SiegebreakerFighter now
lvl13 SbF2 Any Feat
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
So anything that would boost your attack roll with the weapon you're using to perform the Dirty Trick will also increase your CMB.
.
Items/Spells to get:
Any Weapon (I recommend Cestus or Gauntlet) you can do Dirty Tricks with, give it a +4 enchant, Fortuitous enchant and Dueling enchant, and now that's a +8 Luck bonus to Dirty Tricks that allows Fate's Favored provide +1 more. So +9 CMB to Dirty Tricks. Your +4 from the Enhancement also stacks with this, for a total of +13 CMB to Dirty Tricks.
Boots of Speed: HASTE! +1 to Attack, and extra attack at full BAB, and 60ft move speed w/ 120ft charges.
Beast Shape III: Get this if you have a friendly neighborhood Alchemist to become Huge Size (+2 size bonus to CMB) and gain a +6 Size bonus to Strength (+3 Str bonus)
Potion of Bull's Strength; +4 Strength
Potion of Cat's Grace: +4 Dexterity
Potion of Greater Heroism: +4 Morale to Attack Rolls
Belt of Superior Maneuvers +4: +4 to Dirty Trick CMB for 1 round, 3/day
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: +2 Dirty Tricks (I would use Giant Fist Gauntlets 90% of the time, and put these on when you need the extra umph on your DT's)
Dusty Rose Prism/Wayfinder: +1 Insight Bonus to CMB checks
Inspire Courage: +3 Competence to Attack rolls
^---- You don't *Need* all of this stuff. If you can simulate Haste from your group Wizard, and Bull's Str/Cat's Grace/Greater Heroism from your Bard, then great. This is mainly just a list of buffs you're looking for.
Breaker Rush (Ex)At 1st level, a siegebreaker can attempt bull rush or overrun combat maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity. When he performs either combat maneuver, he deals an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to his Strength bonus (minimum 1). If he has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun, the damage dealt by the appropriate maneuver increases by 2 and he adds any enhancement bonus from his armor or shield (though such enhancement bonuses do not stack, if both armor and shield are magic).
This ability replaces the feat gained at 1st level.
Armored Vigor (Ex)
At 2nd level as a swift action, a siegebreaker can gain 2 temporary hit points that last for 1 minute. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Constitution modifier (minimum 1 per day), but only while wearing armor. At 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the number of temporary hit points the siegebreaker gains increases by 2, to a maximum of 10 at 18th level.
This ability replaces bravery.
Breaker Momentum (Ex)
At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action.
This ability replaces the feat gained at 2nd level.
Because you can get Giant Fist Gauntlets and shove enemies around every time you punch them in the face, and the lvl 2 Breaker Momentum allows you to Overrun them for free when you shove them. And now, nobody can stop you from getting in the BBEG's face the exact second that combat starts, even if they're standing in a line trying to prevent a direct path to the BBEG. You don't need direct lines to enemies to charge them, you just shove through them like the gawsh dang Juggernaut from X-men. And once you start the Punchy McShovyPushy stuff, you can shove that poor soul into any environmental hazard your GM planned for you.
Extra Items:
Giant's Fist Gauntlets - for pushy shovy
Cruel AoMF - The Cruel enchant is there for Shaken/Sicken combo when you Power Attack with Cornugon Smash. Shaken/Sicken is -4 att/saves/skills/abilchecks and -2 dmg.
Monk's Robes - Unarmed Strike damage treated as 5 levels higher
Juggernaut's Pauldrons <---- Not important for the build, they're just fun and synergize well.
CMB for Dirty Tricks:
+13 BAB
+10 Str (5 base, +2 Bull's Strength, +3 Size bonus form Beast Shape III)
+2 Size bonus (Huge -- Beast Shape III)
+2 Improved Dirty Trick
+2 Greater Dirty Trick
+3 Maneuver Training (DT+3)
+4 Cestus/Gauntlet Enhancement
+9 Dirty Trick Dueling Cestus/Gauntlet (it can be any weapon that you want as long as it qualifies though)
+1 Dusty Rose (Insight bonus to CMB)
+2 Heirloom Weapon (Trait bonus)
+4 Greater Heroism (Morale bonus)
+3 Inspire Courage (Competence bonus)
+1 Haste
+53 CMB to Dirty Trick, +55 while Charging
+57 While Flanking
+57 Use Belt (3/day)
+61 Use Belt while Flanking (3/day)
CR20+ Monsters have CMDs around ~55-60ish, so you're already hitting everything your GM can throw at you right now.
Your Primary Goal should be to Charge 120ft w/haste, deliver a Full Attack with Pummeling Charge, and use QDT for your First Attack to Blind or Sicken-->Nauseate as fast as possible, because "Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn" and with Dirty Tricks Master feat, it takes a Standard Action to clear your DT conditions. So Nauseate = you're out of the fight, and you can continue to pummel him into orange goo, or go 120ft charge another enemy next round.
So the idea here is to have the +4 Dueling Weapon on your left hand, and this is what you perform Dirty Tricks with, and then whenever you're doing your "Pummeling Style" hits, this is what you're using your Right hand, Feet, Knees, Headbutts, and Elbows, so that way all your attacks are added up before DR is considered, and each one of these hits Bull Rush + Overruns your target (So don't Flurry with your weapon hand, but you would do all of your Attacks of Opportunity with your Weapon hand, so you can get Two AoO's with Fortuitous). You are able to move with the target of your Bull Rush, so long as you have the available movement to do so. So as long as you have haste, you should be able to push that guy wherever you want to.
Tripping at the high levels is really hard to pull off because everything has extra legs or flies, but if you can trip, you can generate extra attacks. So if you know you can Trip in a given encounter, use Martial Flexibility to plug in 3 feats: Imp Trip, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp as a Move Action.
So if you know you can't Trip your targets, and want to focus on Dirty Tricks (which will probably be about 90% of the time), you're going want to use Martial Flexibility to give yourself Kitsune Style, Kitsune Tricks, and Kitsune Vengeance as a Move Action. Kitsune Tricks allows you to put two conditions on the target with one DT maneuver. So, Blind/Sicken him, and then if he doesn't clear it, next round Nauseate him. If he does try to move away from you and provokes an AoO, Kitsune Vengence will let you do another Dirty Trick in lieu of the attack. So with the Kitsune line, you can Pile on the DT debuffs quickly.
The cool part about Kitsune Vengeance + Fortuitous Enchant is that you can make two Attacks of Opportunity and apply 2 DT conditions with each of those AoO's, for a total of 4 conditons, so instantly Blind+Sicken --- Nauseate+Entangle, and just like that, they're out of the fight. So if anyone moves past you, tries to move away from you, gets tripped near you, tries to cast a spell near you. Whack Whack, out of the fight.
1 round Attack Breakdown:
120ft Charge -> Flurry
1st Flurry Attack: Quick Dirty Trick to Blind (or Sicken, then Next Round: Nauseate) If you MF the Kitsune feats, Blind/Sicken at the same time and pile on those debuffs.
2nd Flurry Attack: Trip (if you can, if not, make a regular attack)
If Trip, you get 3 AoO's:
AoO Vicious Stomp
AoO Greater Trip (and AoO from Allies)
AoO Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists
3rd Flurry Attack (+Bull Rush +Overrun)
4th Flurry Attack (+BR +OR)
5th Flurry Attack (+BR +OR)
6th Flurry Attack (+BR +OR)
One big deal about this build is that every round your enemy is forced to take a Standard Action to remove your DT condition of Blind/Sicken, so they can't hit you even once, because if they do, the next round they're nauseated. And now they can't clear the debuffs.
A good dirty tricks build is certainly very effective, but it is also one of those things that will make your GMs tend to dislike you. It's a very "unfun" way to resolve battles.
Nice build Ryze Kuja
The biggest issue with bullrush and overrun is having movement enough. If you full attack then you lack movement and if you charge you need Rolling Flurry the get more than one hit between each movement.
Yeah, that's why you need haste. You can't do it effectively without 60ft+ move speed. You're automatically allowed to move with your target when you bull rush them though, even without Rolling Flurry.
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Yeah, that's why you need haste. You can't do it effectively without 60ft+ move speed. You're automatically allowed to move with your target when you bull rush them though, even without Rolling Flurry.Nice build Ryze Kuja
The biggest issue with bullrush and overrun is having movement enough. If you full attack then you lack movement and if you charge you need Rolling Flurry the get more than one hit between each movement.
Yeah IF you have enough movement left. It also works if you bullrush the target up against a solid object and the target is knocked prone instead. Then you can bullrush the target again and again.
The problem with most pounce abilities is that you need to make all the attacks at the end of the charge.From the charge rules:
“You must move before your attack, not after.”
From Pummeling charge:
“You can charge and make a full attack or flurry of blows at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.”
Ex
If you charge 10 ft and attack + free bullrush (5ft) then you follow up with 5 feet movement, but without Rolling Flurry your attack routine stops there.
Overrun uses even more movement. If you overrun an medium sized opponent you need at least 10 feat each time and if you overrun the same target multible times you need to change direction which rules out the charge action.
The build I have worked on tried to combine all this with heavy armor and Bulette Charge Style feat chain… not an easy build - and i’m not satisfied because of the movement issues.
Bull Rush
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
You get to move with the target because of the bull rush rules.
Gauntlets, Giant Fist
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Slot hands; Price 20,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
As a swift action, the wearer of these rough leather gauntlets can expand her hands to twice normal size and harden to the consistency of hardwood. This transformation lasts for up to 20 rounds per day, though they need not be consecutive rounds. If the wearer hits with an unarmed strike or natural attack using her enlarged hands, she may attempt to bull rush her opponent as a free action.
You get a free bull rush every unarmed attack.
Breaker Momentum (Ex)
At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action.
You stay on top of the target with the Free Overrun. <--- that's crucial
The nonsense ends when you run out of movement.
I'm pretty positive that your movement doesn't end at the end of the charge, you should be able to Charge + Bull Rush a target as far as you want, provided you don't go past your movement allows. Lets forget about Pummeling Charge w/ Giant's Fist Gaunts for a minute, and just consider a standard Charge w/ Haste into a Bull Rush hypothetical example, if you have 30ft of movement + 30ft of Haste, you have 60ft total movement, and you have 120ft to charge. So if you charge someone 20ft away, you'd have 40ft leftover to push him back, provided that your bull rush CMB exceeds his CMD by 35, but lets say you roll a 41CMB to his 20CMD, so that's 5 + 21exceededCMB = 25ft you could Bull Rush, for a total of 20ft charge + 25ft Bull rush = 45ft total moved. This is all kosher so far, right?
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I'm pretty positive that your movement doesn't end at the end of the charge, you should be able to Charge + Bull Rush a target as far as you want, provided you don't go past your movement allows. Lets forget about Pummeling Charge w/ Giant's Fist Gaunts for a minute, and just consider a standard Haste w/ Charge into a Bull Rush hypothetical example, if you have 30ft of movement + 30ft of Haste, you have 60ft total movement, and you have 120ft to charge. So if you charge someone 20ft away, you'd have 40ft leftover to push him back, provided that your bull rush CMB exceeds his CMD by 35, but lets say you roll a 41CMB to his 20CMD, so that's 5 + 21exceededCMB = 25ft you could Bull Rush, for a total of 20ft charge + 25ft Bull rush = 45ft total moved. This is all kosher so far, right?
That was not what I ment.
You end your move part of the charge when you make the first attack in your full attack pounce sequence.If you choose to move again as part of a Bull rush or a overrun maneuver then you violate the charge- and pounce rules and cannot make more attacks as part of the charge/pounce sequence.
If you use Rolling Flurry, then drop the charge and problem solved.
I'm pretty positive that your movement doesn't end at the end of the charge, you should be able to Charge + Bull Rush a target as far as you want, provided you don't go past your movement allows. Lets forget about Pummeling Charge w/ Giant's Fist Gaunts for a minute, and just consider a standard Haste w/ Charge into a Bull Rush hypothetical example, if you have 30ft of movement + 30ft of Haste, you have 60ft total movement, and you have 120ft to charge. So if you charge someone 20ft away, you'd have 40ft leftover to push him back, provided that your bull rush CMB exceeds his CMD by 35, but lets say you roll a 41CMB to his 20CMD, so that's 5 + 21exceededCMB = 25ft you could Bull Rush, for a total of 20ft charge + 25ft Bull rush = 45ft total moved. This is all kosher so far, right?That was not what I ment.
You end your move part of the charge when you make the first attack in your full attack pounce sequence.
If you choose to move again as part of a Bull rush or a overrun maneuver then you violate the charge- and pounce rules and cannot make more attacks as part of the charge/pounce sequence.If you use Rolling Flurry, then drop the charge and problem solved.
Ok I see what you're saying. If you make an attack, your movement ends right there. I agree.
But if you bring Pummeling Charge and Giant's Fist Gauntlets back into the mix, you get to make a Flurry at the end of a charge, and whenever you make an Unarmed Attack, you bull rush as a Free Action, and with the Siegebreaker2 ability, you get to Overrun as a Free Action when you Bull Rush.
So I think as long as you don't exceed your movement, this is all kosher.
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How do you get the second bullrush?
If I’m correct (the rules could be interpred differently) then you do not Flurry, if you move after the first unarmed attack.
The free action bullrush and overrun still requires movement to do.
Edit:
Your sequence will be charge (10ft.) - unarmed attack - bullrush (5ft.) -overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size). Finished (total of 25 ft.)
Rolling Flurry sequence:
Move (5ft.-trigger AOO from target) Flurry (1) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
Flurry (2) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
Flurry (3) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
Flurry (4) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
First attack needs 20 ft total and the following 15 ft each.
4 attacks needs at least 65ft movement.
Well let's uncomplicate it by not including charge for a minute.
If you have a Brawler with GFG's and Haste making a Flurry with no movement prior to the attack, he would be:
Flurry:
1st Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
15ft total moved
2nd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
30ft total moved
3rd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
45ft total moved
4th Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
60ft total moved
5th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
6th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
So put Pummeling Charge back in there
Pummeling Charge 10ft--> Flurry
1st Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
25ft total moved
2nd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
40ft total moved
3rd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
55ft total moved
4th Attack + BR 5ft with the target (can't OR because out of movement)
60ft total moved
5th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
6th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
Rolling Flurry sequence:
Move (5ft.-trigger AOO from target) Flurry (1) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
Flurry (2) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
Flurry (3) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
Flurry (4) - Bullrush (5ft.) - overrun (10fr. - depending on targets size)
First attack needs 20 ft total and the following 15 ft each.
4 attacks needs at least 65ft movement.
You seem to have made a mistake in there…
Rolling Flurry (Ex): When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.
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Well let's uncomplicate it by not including charge for a minute.
If you have a Brawler with GFG's and Haste making a Flurry with no movement prior to the attack, he would be:
Flurry:
1st Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
15ft total moved
2nd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
30ft total moved
3rd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
45ft total moved
4th Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
60ft total moved
5th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
6th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
Without charge you only have a 5 ft step movement when making a full attack - so this will not work unless you have a mount.
So put Pummeling Charge back in therePummeling Charge 10ft--> Flurry
1st Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
25ft total moved
2nd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
40ft total moved
3rd Attack + BR 5ft with the target + OR 10ft move into Opponent square and exit into adjacent square
55ft total moved
4th Attack + BR 5ft with the target (can't OR because out of movement)
60ft total moved
5th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
6th Attack + No BR (out of movement)
Perhaps it is even more restrictive than I first thought.
If you charge (fullround action including movement so no 5ft step) then the rest of your movement is lost the second you make the first unarmed attack against your target due to the charging rules.If you make a bullrush maneuver without a unarmed attack at the end of the charge, then you could move along with the target if you have movement enough. But you could not make a follow-up bullrush as you are not using Pummeling charge.
On a personal note: I would properbly allow it at my table as it is fun and terrain/obstacles will limit its uses.
I'm not taking a 5ft step though. A 5ft step is its own thing. It's considered a Miscellaneous Action that can only be made when you don't take a move action (or a charge).
When you Bull Rush, that movement is its own thing that is taken from your available movement in the round. Any one of those aforementioned Bull Rushes could be 10ft, or 15ft, CMB roll willing.
So these are two very different things.
Earlier upthread you said that Rolling Flurry would allow you to move after the Pummeling Charge; Why would the specific rule of Rolling Flurry allow movement after a charge, but the specific rules of GFG and Pummeling Charge wouldn't, though?
I'm not taking a 5ft step though. A 5ft step is its own thing. It's considered a Miscellaneous Action that can only be made when you don't take a move action (or a charge).Not exactly. It's any movement.
I've had GMs rule that Dimension Door is impossible after a 5' step since DD fluff is stepping through a doorway.Take 5-Foot Step Rules: You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
I'm not taking the Miscellaneous Action of a 5ft step when I bull rush you 5ft, 10ft, or 15ft.
For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
If you're going to consider Bull Rushing someone 5ft as a 5ft step, then this above example isn't possible.
A 5ft step is entirely different than Bull Rushing someone 5ft. And at no point in my above examples am I taking a 5ft step before, during, or after moving any distance via Bull Rush.
The 5ft step rules are not applicable to any of this.
I remember this discussion.
@ *Khan*
Ryze Kuja is convinced that you have an extra pool of "available movement" equal to your base speed that you draw from when making a bull rush. So even if you aren't using any kind of action to move, you still have a pool of movement specifically for bull rushes.
"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
This is of course complete nonsense. The original thread just devolved into Ryze Kuja contradicting themselves over and over as the counter proof started piling up. I could bring up the Drag combat maneuver, the Shield Slam feat, or Hurricane Punch, but instead I'm just going to play ball.
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@ Ryze Kuja
"My" interpretation is that the pool of available movement specific to bull rush starts out at 0. If you'd like to disprove me, then please quote any rule that states how much available movement you start out with. Otherwise we simply don't know if it starts out at 0, 30, or 7.
The biggest issue I see with that bulrush build set up is the following…
So as stated in the rules for bulrush, you may move with your target if you have enough movement left, and charging lets you move up to twice your base movement speed before the attack. So, let’s say you had a base speed of 30, you charged at someone who is 35ft away and performed a bulrush at the end of that charge… what is the maximum amount of movement you would be capable of taking to follow? 0 because your base speed is 30 and you already moved 35? 25 because charging lets you move at double speed and you only moved 35 of your 60 for that charge? 30 because bulrush uses its own movement pool? What is it?
Personally I’m inclined to believe it is 0 because you already used up your base 30 movement.
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I'm not taking a 5ft step though. A 5ft step is its own thing. It's considered a Miscellaneous Action that can only be made when you don't take a move action (or a charge).
When you Bull Rush, that movement is its own thing that is taken from your available movement in the round. Any one of those aforementioned Bull Rushes could be 10ft, or 15ft, CMB roll willing.
So these are two very different things.
Earlier upthread you said that Rolling Flurry would allow you to move after the Pummeling Charge; Why would the specific rule of Rolling Flurry allow movement after a charge, but the specific rules of GFG and Pummeling Charge wouldn't, though?
I think it is an exception from the general rules. You can even combine it with 5 ft. step:
Rolling Flurry (Ex)
When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks.
While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.
This alters brawler’s flurry.
It is a full round action which allows you to move up to your base speed while full attacking and it’s not compatible with charge.
This makes base speed boost from items or class abilities important.
25 because charging lets you move at double speed and you only moved 35 of your 60 for that charge?
I think it's this one. It's still a charge.
@Wonderstell It's pretty simple. If you're a human with 30ft movement speed, then you have 30ft of available movement in the round. It's not a "separate pool" of available movement, so stop putting words in my mouth.
You perform a Move Action.
If you move 5ft, you have 25ft of available movement left.
If you move 10ft, you have 20ft of available movement left.
If you move 15ft, you have 15ft of available movement left.
If you move 20ft, you have 10ft of available movement left.
If you move 25ft, you have 5ft of available movement left.
If you move 30ft, you have 0ft of available movement left. And now your Move Action ends. You could've ended it at any point before this if you wanted to as well.
So let's consider Bull Rush.
Bull RushYou can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
You start adjacent to the Goblin and want to bull rush him as far as you can, and if you roll a CMB check 25 higher than his CMD, you could push him up to 30ft away and move with him if you wanted.
You perform a Standard Action to Bull Rush.If you BR the goblin 5 ft, you have 25ft of available movement left to continue Bull Rushing.
If you BR the goblin 10 ft, you have 20ft of available movement left to continue Bull Rushing.
If you BR the goblin 15 ft, you have 25ft of available movement left to continue Bull Rushing.
If you BR the goblin 20 ft, you have 10ft of available movement left to continue Bull Rushing.
If you BR the goblin 25 ft, you have 5ft of available movement left to continue Bull Rushing.
If you BR the goblin 30 ft, you have 0ft of available movement left to continue Bull Rushing. And now your Bull Rush ends. You could've ended it at any point before this if you wanted to as well.
It's not a separate pool of movement. It IS your movement. It really is that simple.
That sounds right to me Ryze.
I'm gonna be honest, some of the previous posts were a bit long and were talking about abilities I haven't read. I don't know that everything in those worked as described ... but that interpretation of Bull Rush seems right to me.
I'm not taking a 5ft step though. A 5ft step is its own thing. It's considered a Miscellaneous Action that can only be made when you don't take a move action (or a charge).
When you Bull Rush, that movement is its own thing that is taken from your available movement in the round. Any one of those aforementioned Bull Rushes could be 10ft, or 15ft, CMB roll willing.
So these are two very different things.
Earlier upthread you said that Rolling Flurry would allow you to move after the Pummeling Charge; Why would the specific rule of Rolling Flurry allow movement after a charge, but the specific rules of GFG and Pummeling Charge wouldn't, though?
I think it is an exception from the general rules. You can even combine it with 5 ft. step:
Rolling Flurry (Ex)
When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks.
While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.
This alters brawler’s flurry.It is a full round action which allows you to move up to your base speed while full attacking and it’s not compatible with charge.
This makes base speed boost from items or class abilities important.
During a Rolling Flurry, you aren't making a 5ft step though. That's it's own Miscellaneous Action that you're allowed to make whenever you don't actually move at all in the round.
You are moving 5ft before the attack and in between all these attacks, but none of them are considered the Miscellaneous Action of taking a 5ft step. All of this movement you're making is taken away from your total available movement in the round.
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On a side note, there is no rule that says your movement must end at the end of a charge and there are no if's, and's, or but's about it. There are specific rules that you to move at the end of a charge, such as: to Bull Rush at the end of a charge, Ride-by-Attack allows you to charge, attack, and then move again.
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Hi Ryze
I agree with your examples above, and I generally like your interpretation of the rules, but they open up some problems when you combine them with full round actions.
Here are some potentially exploites:
A Shieldslam warrior can full attack AND move up to his basespeed every round. If he can possibly use this tactic to reach other targets and change direction when he hit them instead. Large size and Reach will make this easier.
If you have the Demonic Slaughter feat, you can greater cleave after each bullrush in a round.
Demonic Slaughter (Combat)
Source Planar Adventures pg. 27
You punch into your foes’ ranks and cut them down.
Prerequisites: Cleave, Demonic Momentum, Demonic Style, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: While using Demonic Style, when you successfully bull rush an opponent as part of a charge, you can immediately use Great Cleave as though you had used a standard action to do so. This occurs after the effect of your bull rush is fully resolved. The target of your bull rush must be the target of the first attack you make as part of Great Cleave.
Durring a Rolling Flurry, you aren't making a 5ft step though. That's it's own Miscellaneous Action that you're allowed to make whenever you don't actually move at all in the round.
You are moving 5ft before the attack and in between all these attacks, but none of them are considered the Miscellaneous Action of taking a 5ft step. All of this movement you're making is taken away from your total available movement in the round.
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On a side note, there is no rule that says your movement must end at the end of a charge and there are no if's, and's, or but's about it. There are specific rules that you to move at the end of a charge, such as: to Bull Rush at the end of a charge, Ride-by-Attack allows you to charge, attack, and then move
Yep my point was that this ability is an exception from the general rule that you can't 5ft. step if you make other movements that round.
My view on the charge rule is still as written: you move first and attack at the end of the charge. Your point, as I understand it, is that the movement from bull rush do not conflict with that, but I disagree.
My view on it is that you perform a Charge as a full round action and then at the end of the charge your movement stops (all of this movement is taken away from your available movement in the round). You have a specific rule from Pummeling Charge that allows you to perform a Flurry at the end of that charge. Once you successfully hit with any of those unarmed attacks, the GFG's provide a specific rule that causes a free Bull Rush, and there is a general rule from Bull Rush that allows you to move with the enemy (provided you have the available movement to do so). Siegebreaker2 then provides a specific rule that allows you to get a free Overrun whenever you successfully Bull Rush (also provided you have the available movement to do so).
I don't think any rules are broken, and that the specific/general rules allow this.
As far as Shield Slam-focused martial, that full attack + movement is absolutely intended. The whole point of a build like that is to be a pushy-shovy combat controller. Otherwise, this example in Bull Rush isn't possible:
For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
If you have the Demonic Slaughter feat, you can greater cleave after each bullrush in a round.Demonic Slaughter (Combat)
Source Planar Adventures pg. 27
You punch into your foes’ ranks and cut them down.
Prerequisites: Cleave, Demonic Momentum, Demonic Style, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: While using Demonic Style, when you successfully bull rush an opponent as part of a charge, you can immediately use Great Cleave as though you had used a standard action to do so. This occurs after the effect of your bull rush is fully resolved. The target of your bull rush must be the target of the first attack you make as part of Great Cleave.
Demonic slaughter only lets you apply greater cleave after a bulrush on a charge… if you get to bulrush on any other attacks, it doesn’t trigger.
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Demonic slaughter only lets you apply greater cleave after a bulrush on a charge… if you get to bulrush on any other attacks, it doesn’t trigger.
If you have the Demonic Slaughter feat, you can greater cleave after each bullrush in a round.Demonic Slaughter (Combat)
Source Planar Adventures pg. 27
You punch into your foes’ ranks and cut them down.
Prerequisites: Cleave, Demonic Momentum, Demonic Style, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: While using Demonic Style, when you successfully bull rush an opponent as part of a charge, you can immediately use Great Cleave as though you had used a standard action to do so. This occurs after the effect of your bull rush is fully resolved. The target of your bull rush must be the target of the first attack you make as part of Great Cleave.
Yep that is the exploit. If you charge and pounce with multible bullrushes then you get multiple greater cleaves.
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My view on it is that you perform a Charge as a full round action and then at the end of the charge your movement stops (all of this movement is taken away from your available movement in the round). You have a specific rule from Pummeling Charge that allows you to perform a Flurry at the end of that charge. Once you successfully hit with any of those unarmed attacks, the GFG's provide a specific rule that causes a free Bull Rush, and there is a general rule from Bull Rush that allows you to move with the enemy (provided you have the available movement to do so). Siegebreaker2 then provides a specific rule that allows you to get a free Overrun whenever you successfully Bull Rush (also provided you have the available movement to do so).
I don't think any rules are broken, and that the specific/general rules allow this.
As far as Shield Slam-focused martial, that full attack + movement is absolutely intended. The whole point of a build like that is to be a pushy-shovy combat controller. Otherwise, this example in Bull Rush isn't possible:
For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
I think your last example is actually one bullrush pushing two creatures, and the first bullrush result is the limit of the bullrush.
I think your last example is actually one bullrush pushing two creatures, and the first bullrush result is the limit of the bullrush.My view on it is that you perform a Charge as a full round action and then at the end of the charge your movement stops (all of this movement is taken away from your available movement in the round). You have a specific rule from Pummeling Charge that allows you to perform a Flurry at the end of that charge. Once you successfully hit with any of those unarmed attacks, the GFG's provide a specific rule that causes a free Bull Rush, and there is a general rule from Bull Rush that allows you to move with the enemy (provided you have the available movement to do so). Siegebreaker2 then provides a specific rule that allows you to get a free Overrun whenever you successfully Bull Rush (also provided you have the available movement to do so).
I don't think any rules are broken, and that the specific/general rules allow this.
As far as Shield Slam-focused martial, that full attack + movement is absolutely intended. The whole point of a build like that is to be a pushy-shovy combat controller. Otherwise, this example in Bull Rush isn't possible:
For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
Right, but my point was that he's bull rushing a total of 15 feet and this is taken from his available movement in the round.
I wish that Paizo had included an example where the fighter defeated their CMB by 35 so he could Bull Rush them a total of 40ft, except he would only be able to BR them a total of 30ft because his available movement for that round would be expended.