What are some good battlefield controller / utility casters options?


Advice


I am semi familiar with PF1e in that I have experience with DnD3.5 a bit but I don't know a lot about FP1 classes in any depth. I enjoy playing battlefield controller/utility casters. I like to have a lot of options and have a wide range of spell types to choose from I don't want to try and guess how many invisibilities/webs/walls/charms/suggestion/haste I might need for the day. Would an arcanist be good for this sort of play style? What other options might also be good? What are the trade offs?

This will be for an 1-17ish Adventure path


always remember the almighty Grease:

- It knocks down low-reflex enemies (in 10 ft area)
- it can help slowing down and bottle-necking approaching ones
- It can save a buddy in a grapple (targeting his armor\cloths. remind him to willingly fail his save)
- AND it help knocking off enemie's weapons (or other held items) off their hands.

In one very tough fight with a boss wielding a very nasty big bad reach weapon, not only did i get him to drop it. he kept failing his saves to pick it up. super hard fight went into silly mode !

too bad that it's not flammable as it was in the old days.


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JD Shock wrote:
I like to have a lot of options and have a wide range of spell types to choose from I don't want to try and guess how many invisibilities/webs/walls/charms/suggestion/haste I might need for the day. Would an arcanist be good for this sort of play style?

Arcanist does sound like the perfect class for your wishlist. It's basically a spontaneous caster where you chose the spells known each morning.

Another option might be the Ley Line Guardian Witch - the spell list is much smaller, and some staple arcane spells like Invisibility or Haste are only aviable via Patron (and you'd have to chose between them), but the archetype makes it a spontaneous caster, and hexes can be used all day long and includes options for save-or-suck (e.g.Slumber), battlefield controll (Swamp's Grasp), and buffs (e.g. Protective Luck, which combines very well with Soothsayer).


An arcanist is a good choice. A little light on the number of spell slots, but ease of use and a variety of special abilities are good and a battlefield controller doesn't need as many spell slots as some.

PF1 sorcerers get more spells known than their D&D 3.5 equivalents which makes them workable for control/utility. The bloodline spells, bloodline powers, and possible racial favored class bonuses give them many more options. They're still less flexible than arcanists but have more spell slots.

There are ways of getting partial spontaneous casting on a wizard if you're generally OK with prepared spellcasting but want a lifeline in case you get it wrong.


Tradeoff is delayed casting for spontaneous casting in general. Most spontaneous casters also are pretty limited in spell selection, with Arcanist being the exception.

If you were okay with Summon Monster spells being central to your repertoire (it’s certainly a valid approach for battlefield control in general, but not everyone’s cup of tea), i would recommend Occultist Arcanist; even though their casting in general has the spontaneous caster delay, for Summon Monster specifically they are effectively even with prepareds and have 10X the duration.


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hmmm... Arcanist is good and you have to build your system knowledge, so it's a good balance.

If it's not a killer Adv Path then Mystic Theurge might be an option if you don't mind trading *BANG* for lots of support & utility. It's less painful if your GM agrees to early entry via an SLA (which isn't allowed in updated RAW).

If you focus more on defense, then Diviner with a bonded object is a good choice. Don't focus in divination as your class title is just a ruse. It's not a crime to pick up 1-2 levels in monk or rogue (you want what you don't got) as it increases survival & flexibility at the cost of spell level and you delay your 'debut' to 7th level.

If you're in an evil Adv Path (yeah...) then Bloatmage can be hilarious with lots of RP potential. It'll take some careful planning. Buy a heavy war horse ASAP.


You may want to consider an Illusionist. The flexibility will come from deciding what the illusion covers and of course you get the full range of spells available to the wizard class.

The two major downsides are your imagination and what the GM will allow. Do you know how your GM handles being on the receiving end of illusion spells? For instance does he metagame around them and/or severely limit what can be achieved with them or does he play them straight?


Derklord wrote:
JD Shock wrote:
I like to have a lot of options and have a wide range of spell types to choose from I don't want to try and guess how many invisibilities/webs/walls/charms/suggestion/haste I might need for the day. Would an arcanist be good for this sort of play style?

Arcanist does sound like the perfect class for your wishlist. It's basically a spontaneous caster where you chose the spells known each morning.

Another option might be the Ley Line Guardian Witch - the spell list is much smaller, and some staple arcane spells like Invisibility or Haste are only aviable via Patron (and you'd have to chose between them), but the archetype makes it a spontaneous caster, and hexes can be used all day long and includes options for save-or-suck (e.g.Slumber), battlefield controll (Swamp's Grasp), and buffs (e.g. Protective Luck, which combines very well with Soothsayer).

I was going to say something similar, but I didn't know Archives of Nethys had a set of stealth ID tags in it. (Any way to figure out what these are without looking at the page source? I mostly figured out the pattern for d20pfsrd.com, but I thought Archives of Nethys was devoid of this particular utility until now.)

Another thought I had is to be a hybrid martial/caster battlefield controller. Although it does take more preparation than you might want, and unfortunately Eldritch Scion Magus (the spontaneous archetype that isn't also a Psychic archetype) isn't compatible with Hexcrafter (and for that matter, Mindblade Magus, the Psychic spontaneous archetype, isn't compatible with Hexcrafter either). (But since the linked build is actually 2 builds in 1, and has the option to refrain from using Hexcrafter, I could see making an Eldritch Scion or Mindblade version of it.)


Azothath wrote:
If it's not a killer Adv Path then Mystic Theurge might be an option if you don't mind trading *BANG* for lots of support & utility.

The last thing I would recommend for someone coming from 3.5 is prestige classes, because that's almost guaranteed to lead to misconceptions and failed expectations.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
I didn't know Archives of Nethys had a set of stealth ID tags in it. (Any way to figure out what these are without looking at the page source?

Kinda. Right-click on the text of whatever entry you want to link, click "inspect" (or press "Q"), double-click on the ID name, copy it, and click on the address bar, add a "#" and then paste. Of course, for multiple entries from the same list (warning: stuff like Rogue Talents have dfferent lists on the same page), I just look at the number and only insert that into the adress.


For a Battlefield Controlling Arcanist, I would go with a build like this below. It doesn't matter what race you pick, but I would recommend Human (for the bonus feat and extra skill points) or Elf (for the +2 Spell Pen & because Elves pwn).

For your Ability Scores, I would prioritize them like: Int > Cha >>>> Dex = Con >>>>>> Str = Wis

Arcanists use both Int and Cha, so make sure these are your two highest, followed by Dex and Con. Str and Wis are dump stats.

Traits:

Reactionary: You gain a +2 trait bonus on initiative checks.
Desperate Resolve: You gain a +1 trait bonus on concentration checks. This trait bonus increases to + 4 when you are grappled, pinned, in violent weather, or entangled.

Lvl1:
Feat: Spell Focus (Enchantment, Illusion, Conjuration, or whatever School you'd like to focus on casting)
Exploit: School Understanding: Divination (Foresight)

Divination (Foresight) wrote:
Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

For Battlefield Control and general Survivability, this ability is Top Shelf. You can use this 3 + Your Cha Mod per day to essentially get a free "Roll Twice" for any d20 roll, and I would use these liberally whenever you think you're going to be making Caster Level checks, which is very important when Counterspelling an enemy spellcaster with Dispel Magic, or even CL checks trying to overcome Spell Resistance. And you can even use these rolls for your own Saves and Concentration Checks if you're in a pinch.

If you spend 1 point from your Arcane Reservoir, you can gain Forewarned for 1 round per Cha Mod. So if you think you're about to get into combat, throw this up to give yourself +1/2 your total level as a bonus towards the Init check. And if you think you're about to get ambushed, throw this up so you can ensure you act in the Surprise Round. <--- Very important for survivability

Forewarned wrote:

Forewarned (Su)

You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.

Lvl2:

Lvl3:
Feat: Heighten Spell
Exploit: Potent Magic

Lvl4:

Lvl5:
Feat: Preferred Spell (Your Favorite Control Spell Here)
Exploit: Dimensional Slide

Now you never need to prepare your favorite control spell and you can pump any MM feats you know into it on the fly and without increasing your cast time.

Lvl6:

Lvl7:
Feat: Persistent Spell
Exploit: Counterspell

Persistent Spell is a "must-have" for any Battlefield Controller, because it makes your enemies have to save a second time if they successfully save the spell.

Lvl8:

Lvl9:
Feat: Dazing Spell
Exploit: Metamagic Knowledge: Quicken Spell

Dazing Magic Missiles, Dazing Scorching Rays, and Dazing Fireballs pwn.

Lvl10:

Lvl11:
Feat: Spell Penetration
Greater Exploit: Greater Counterspell

Lvl12:

Lvl13:
Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Whatever School you chose earlier)
Greater Exploit: Greater Metamagic Knowledge: Reach Spell

Greater MM Knowledge is pretty handy because you can swap out your chosen MM Feat (Maximize Spell) for any other MM Feat every morning on a daily basis. You can choose W/e MM feat you think you'll need.

Lvl14:

Lvl15:
Feat: Spell Perfection (Your Favorite Spell)
Greater Exploit: Any

Lvl16:

Lvl17:
Feat: Greater Spell Penetration
Greater Exploit: Any


Here's another thought: Reach Arcanist (by way of the Blade Adept archetype with VMC Magus and a single level dip in Blood Conduit Bloodrager (Aberrant Bloodline for the Reach) but no levels in Eldritch Knight. I want to revisit this build at some point to see if I can improve it . . . .


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For a reach-based blade adept arcanist, you really should think about picking up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) and making a whip your Sword Bond/Sentient Blade (a whip is a "one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"). Possibly taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat instead of Combat Reflexes at bloodrager 1, since the 15 ft reach from a whip doesn't threaten unless taking Weapon Focus/Whip Mastery/Improved Whip Mastery and VMC magus is eating up your feats; VMC magus also delays being able to Spellstrike by five levels (instead of taking the Spell Strike arcanist exploit at bloodrager 1/arcanist 5; which works for your arcanist spells using your bonded weapon). You also really should look at taking Magus Arcana (Close Range) as an adept exploit to expand the spells you can Spellstrike with.

I'm not sure that VMC magus is worth it for the magus arcane pool and the Maneuver Mastery arcana (basically the only things that you can't already get from blade adept).


I thought about that, but the problem with NOT taking VMC Magus is that while Blade Adept Arcanist gives you an effective Magus level for determining the effect of Magus Arcana, it only lets you get a limited set, which doesn't include Maneuver Mastery. VMC Magus on the other hand, gives you access to the full set of Magus Arcana, but it doesn't give you an effective Magus level for determining their effect, so VMC Magus can legally choose Maneuver Mastery, but doesn't get any benefit from it without Blade Adept Arcanist. I also thought about Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), but then you also need at least part of the Whip Mastery feat chain (including the Weapon Focus feat tax). But maybe I could make it work with somebody who gets free Whip proficiency (Half-Elf with Ancestral Arms, or any of 3 options for Half-Orc), although losing the Human bonus feat hurts as much as that helps unless you get something else for it, like the Half-Elf ability to use Paragon Surge and ability to use the Elf Favored Class Bonus (add 1 point to Arcane Reservoir). Paragon Surge isn't as great if you can't pair it up with Tactical Adaptation, which can only be cast by an actual Magus (see build I linked above).


Here's another thought: If you want to do battlefield control, but you secretly also want to try out blowing stuff up, invest in Metamagic Feats that are made exactly for doing battlefield control while blowing stuff up. By a literal reading, most of these Metamagic Feats will also work on spells that conditionally do damage, like Wall of Ice when creatures try to break through, even if it didn't affect them when you initially cast the spell. Here's a non-exhaustive list:

    Apocalyptic Spell -- area of effect spell creates difficult terrain, even in air and water (+1 level cost).
    Authoritative Spell -- even being restricted to affecting only 1 creature per spell casting, this is just broken the way it is written right now, with (unlike other debilitating Metamagics including the more expensive Dazing Spell) no text that gives a Save against the Authoritative effect if the base spell doesn't allow a save (recommended house rule: fix this) (+2 level cost; single-target only, but still broken).
    Dazing Spell -- hit enemies with a Dazing Fireball (preferably also Persistent), then have your martials/summons/Undead run in and mop up (+3 level cost -- Spell Perfection is your friend here to help you afford to apply both Dazing Spell and Persistent Spell).
    Rime Spell -- Entangle those damaged by the spell. (+1 level cost) Powerful, but although it doesn't have a Save against the Entangle effect, I wouldn't call it broken, even though it can be area of effect or multiple target, because unlike Authoritative Spell, it doesn't completely shut down most types of actions, and it is easier to counter by means other than being immune to the spell (and immunity to Cold spells is easier to come by than immunity to everything that Authoritative Spell could possibly be applied to).
    Toppling Spell -- knock things over with Force spells (+1 level cost). Instead of making a Save, targets have to resist a Trip attempt, so beware that while it will be fun on Magic Missile at low levels, it will get hard to get this to stick on many opponents at high levels. Also, this one probably doesn't work conditionally on most Force spells when opponents run into them (unless the spells have some kind of active effect rather than just offering passive resistance, but I can't think of any off the top of my head -- for instance, Wind Wall sounds right for doing that, but it's Air, not Force).
    Umbral Spell (requires Tenebrous Spell), although you don't actually have to use both feats at the same time) -- your spells radiate darkness (+2 level cost). Also, Light spells have to be higher level than the original spell level to counter the darkness -- for example Umbral Black Tentacles would radiate darkness that stands even against a normal Daylight spell or even a normal Brightest Light spell.

I left out some pretty good debuffs that don't really count as battlefield control, but are nevertheless worth looking into, like Concussive Spell, Jinxed Spell (pesky prerequisites, and needs Area Jinx, which also has pesky prerequisites, for best effect), and Sickening Spell.


^Late addition to above: If you are a spontaneous caster, you also need Spontaneous Metafocus or to be an Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer (the 3rd level Bloodline Power is what you need here). Technically, you could also get the same effect if you and an ally both have the same Metemagic Feats and Mystical Reverberation, but it is going to be pretty hard to get that situation (slightly easier by casting Shared Training to give them the Teamwork Feat, but the rest of the situation is normally a pretty tall order. Versatile Spontaneity will also do it for any one spell per day as long as the combined spell + Metamagic cost is less than the highest level of spell you can cast, but you have to prepare it in advance. If you DON'T have an ability like these, you won't be able to get off your Dazing Fireball (or whatever) in a Surprise Round as a spontaneous caster (you could start it, but it won't fire until part way into the next round, and then you can't even start another spell in the next round unless it is Swift Action or Immediate Action).

Edit: Versatile Spontaneity is worthwhile only if you AREN'T an Arcane Sorcerer, who can use their 3rd level Bloodline Power on any spell, and with no additional level cost, starting once per day, but growing to more (and at 20th level becoming unlimited).


Spontaneous metafocus is for characters who specialise in one spell. Pure blasters or an eldritch scion magus, not battlefield control/utility casters. Mystical rev. is impractical, the arcane bloodline or versatile spont. brings up the question of why you're not just a wizard or arcanist.

You should be able to find one spell you're willing to cast in the surprise round (mirror image if nothing else!); or get the lookout feat and get your allies to do the same which is more practical than mystical rev.

Toppling spell becomes more valid at high levels if, say, 5 magic missiles on one enemy gives 5 trip attempts. Otherwise it's a low level trick.

Umbral spell works great on humans but you'll be amazed how many monsters have darkvision. If you're adding shadow grasp as well that's +3 levels which leaves the save DC looking poor even if you can afford the spell slot.

Sickening spell isn't worth the cost, concussive spell requires sonic spells (which suck), jinxed spell takes so many feats to be useful it's absurd. Not all metamagics are worth getting.

Edit: one other trick is that quickened or otherwise swift action casting time spells aren't lengthened by metamagic for a spontaneous caster. So if you cast vacuous vessel (an otherwise pointless cantrip with a swift action casting time) with umbral spell and shadow grasp, it still only takes a swift action to cast.


But the point about Spontaneous Metafocus (or better yet, Arcane Sorcerer, or in a pinch, Versatile Spontaneity) is that with some subset of the battlefield control Metamagic Feats, you can be a decent battlefield controller with a couple of spells. Dazing Fireball, and then choose one with some other type of energy (or get some way of altering Fireball's energy type) in case of Fire-immune enemies. Once you have gotten past the Surprise round, then you can go back to Full-Round Actions to cast Metamagic-enhanced spells when needed, and save your action economy boosts in case you have another Surprise round later in the day. As to why you're not a Wizard or Arcanist, Wizards have to go to some trouble if they want to be able to recast something that they already used (they can prepare more than once, but that eats into their versatility), and Arcanists are great except that they run out of gas more quickly than Sorcerers (or even a Wizard who has a fairly one-track mind).

You may be right about the quality of Sonic spells . . . except that Sonic is a rarely-resisted energy type.

For Toppling Spell, I thought some Errata said that it only worked once per casting on any target, but I may be getting that mixed upon with some similar Errata.

How did I miss Shadow Grasp? It does have the problem of adding +1 on top of +2 for an Umbral Spell, but if you tack on Persistent Spell, that gets the effective DC back up to reasonable levels. Alternatively, you could just use it separately on a Darkness spell. And Darkness is good against more than just Humans -- surprisingly, most Giants don't have Darkvision (Ogrees, Stone Giants, and Trolls are the 3 exceptions that come to mind, although I probably missed a couple of others; Giants also often have lousy Reflex Saves with which to get out of Shadow Grasp, or for that matter, many of the spells that many of the other debuff Metamagics would apply to, including Dazing Spell).

For Swift Action spells, I had to go back and re-read the text about the effects of Metamagic on them. I had thought only Quickened spells were unaffected by the casting time increase of Metamagic when cast spontaneously, but by literal (re-)reading, it looks like anything that takes less than a Standard Action is unaffected regardless of the reason for its faster casting.

Jinxed Spell wouldn't be worth all the prerequisites by itself, but if you can make good use of the prerequisites, why not go the extra last bit? Build (work in progress -- apologies in advance for the inconsistent linking, since I haven't gotten done with that yet; also maybe I should replace Arcane Jinxer with Dazing Spell, although I might be able to get a Rod of it before that):

Witch, Halfling, Debuffing:
Witch (Gravewalker -- to lose this archetype when redeemed, Elements Patron to blow things up better after being redeemed), Halfling with Creepy Doll alternate racial trait (no penalty to Intimidate for being Small) replacing Keen Senses and Sure-Footed, Halfling Jinx replacing Halfling Luck, and Dimdweller replacing Weapon Familiarity.

Brief character concept: This character is intended for Giantslayer, and is a runaway slave from Cheliax who was mutilated into looking like a doll, and wants revenge on larger creatures, but who just might find redemption.

15 Point Buy version: Str (7 - 2 =) 5 / Dex (12 + 2) = 14 / Con 12 / Int 17 / Wis 10 / Cha (12 + 2 =) 14; all ability score increases go to Intelligence.

20 Point Buy version: Str (8 - 2 =) 6 / Dex (14 + 2) = 16 / Con 12 / Int 17 / Wis 10 / Cha (12 + 2 =) 14; all ability score increases go to Intelligence.

Traits: Outlander (Exile -- get +2 Initiative) (Universal Campaign Trait, because none of the Giantslayer Campaign Traits fit), Unshackled (get Escape Artist in class).

Favored Class Bonus: All Favored Class Bonus goes to Skills (always really hard up for skill points, and unfortunately, the Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Witch isn't very good).

Skill ranks per level: Total 7: 2 for Witch, 1 for Cunning feat (levels 1 through 3 only), 1 for Favored Class Bonus, 3 for Intelligence 16 (eventually get more, starting at level 4).

Skills to Max: Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), Spellcraft, Perception, Use Magic Device.

Skills to Max - 3: Knowledge (Arcana).

Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb, Fly (eventually needs to be more than 1), Knowledge (all not listed above, and some eventually need to be more than 1), Sense Motive, Stealth, Swim.

01: Level 1 character feat = Cunning (needed for extra skill points until Intelligence increases -- retrain at level 4); level 1 Hex Substitute = Gravewalker Aura of Desecration (if redeemed, lose this and gain Aura of Purity Hex); Level 4 Hex Substitute (gained at 1st level) = Gravewalker Bonethrall (if redeemed, lose this and gain Peacebond Hex); level 1 Familiar Substitute = Gravewalker Spell Poppet.
02: Level 2 Hex = Slumber.
03: Level 3 character feat = Jinxed Spell.
04: Level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence (gain 1 extra skill point per level, which compensates for retraining Cunning); Retrain Cunning to Accursed Hex.
05: Level 5 character feat = Persistent Spell.
06: Level 6 Hex = Misfortune.
07: Level 7 character feat = Widen Spell (required for Area Jinx, and needed for Jinxed Spell to be fully effective).
08: Level 8 Hex Substitute = Gravewalker Possess Undead (if redeemed, lose this and gain Fortune Hex); level 8 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
09: Level 9 character feat = Area Jinx.
10: Level 10 Hex = Retribution.
11: Level 11 character feat = Split Hex (double your Hexing action economy).
12: Level 12 Hex = Agony (if redeemed, lose this and gain Major Ameliorating); level 12 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
13: Level 13 character feat = Quicken Spell (use mainly with Ill Omen to produce the equivalent of a No-Save Misfortune effect).
14: Level 14 Hex = Waxen Image.
15: Level 15 character feat = Sluggish Jinx
16: Level 16 Hex = Regenerative Sinew; level 16 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
17: Level 17 character feat = Arcane Jinxer (Witch is a bit short on spell slots to sacrifice for this, but still profitable to have in reserve against something really tough, and in a pinch could be used as an alternative to Bolster Jinx if really short on feats, which tends to be the case for this build).
18: Level 18 Hex = Life Giver (if redeemed, take this first) or Summon Spirit (otherwise).
19: Level 19 character feat = Split Major Hex (double your Major Hexing action economy).
20: Level 20 Hex = Summon Spirit or Life Giver (whichever one was not taken at level 18); level 20 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.


Umbral spell + shadow grasp + persistent spell is +5 spell levels. It's not that persistent shadow grasp umbral vacuous vessel isn't worth casting, it's just that the game is at least half over by the time you get it, possibly a lot more.

I think you proved my point with that build re: jinxed spell. The jinx is useful there from character level 15 and could still use more feats on it. Also it's still not valid because jinxed spell has a prereq of 2 metamagic feats.

my attempt to make jinxed spell useful:
Halfling blood arcanist (fey)
1: iron will
3: bolster jinx
arcanist 5: potent magic
5: rime spell
7: jinxed spell
arcanist 7: metamagic knowledge (piercing spell)
9: widen spell
11: area jinx
arcanist 11: greater metamagic knowledge (usually quicken spell?)
13: versatile jinx
arcanist 13: spell thief - making use of these penalties to will you're handing out
15: spell perfection (whatever)
17: arcane jinxer
arcanist 17: quick study
19: lightning reflexes
arcanist 19: obfuscated spellcasting

I still don't like it. If people fail their saves vs. your spells they should be messed up anyway, jinxed spell is dependent on their failing saves before it takes effect. Until late game you need to keep Cha high as well as Int. By making sure every feat is at least dual use the jinx is kind of effective, but that means I put little to their defence or to broaden their abilities. All the metamagic means they're going to run out of spell slots all the time.

On sonic spells, you're underestimating just how bad they are.

There is no errata on toppling spell.

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In terms of sonic spells, I find Sound Burst fairly decent; alhtough it is not on the wizard list.

I'm not aware of any errata on Toppling Spell, although I have met some GMs who rule it as "make a trip against each creature affected by the spell". Either way, Toppling Magic Missile is highly effective and worth the feat; I'm not aware of any other good force spells. In my experience it still connects reliably at mid levels, if not at level 20.


Dazing is (obviously?) a very strong approach for battlefield control. I think wizard is just better there though; the extra level delay for sorcerers is particularly painful when your build is targeting specific higher level spell/metamagic combinations (e.g., fireball/dazing; fireball/persistent/dazing).

I like wizard for dazing (because spell progression/admixture/bonus feats give persistentquickendazing/metamagic is still standard action), which is a strong build for ‘battlefield control’,

I also like Sorcerer for blasting (not topical),

Arcanist (Occultist) for summoning (topical),

Arcanist (brown fur transmuter) for buffs (somewhat topical),

Etc. I do also like Sorcerer as a generalist, throwing out walls/confusions/illusions/damage as situationally appropriate and targeting weak saves.

Unless you are a divination wizard or have an extremely generous GM, i wouldn’t worry too much about taking advantage of surprise rounds which should be pretty rare for you.


avr wrote:
Umbral spell + shadow grasp + persistent spell is +5 spell levels. It's not that persistent shadow grasp umbral vacuous vessel isn't worth casting, it's just that the game is at least half over by the time you get it, possibly a lot more.

Spell Perfection and Rods of Metamagic are your friend here. Spell Perfection (Greater Darkness) and an Intermediate Rod of Persistent Spell lets you cast Greater Darkness (3rd level) + Umbral Spell (normally +2 but reduced to +0 by Spell Perfection) + Shadow Grasp (+1) + Persistent Spell (normally +2 but covered by the Rod) from a 4th level spell slot. (You could exchange which +2 feat is on the Rod and which one is covered by Spell Perfection and get the same result.) And regular Darkvision isn't good enough to see through Deeper Darkness if it hasn't been impaired by normal or brighter prevailing light conditions. Same idea on Dazing Persistent Fireball.

avr wrote:

I think you proved my point with that build re: jinxed spell. The jinx is useful there from character level 15 and could still use more feats on it. Also it's still not valid because jinxed spell has a prereq of 2 metamagic feats.

{. . .}

Oops, I got mixed up which one of Area Jinx and Jinxed Spell has a prerequisite of 2 Metamagic Feats. But your build has the same problem. Fortunately, it's easy to fix in yours -- just swap the levels at which you get Widen Spell and Jinxed Spell (Widen Spell at least has some uses on 1st level spells, like Grease). Mine needs more work to fix: Need to rearrange a bit more to get Jinxed Spell to be after Persistent Spell and Widen Spell, and then move something else that's late but could be earlier without being initially useless (Persistent Spell and Widen Spell would be initially useless if moved earlier, because they would initially only be usable on Cantrips, so I don't want to just do a cyclic permutation). Will have to do this some night when I don't have to get up early the next morning.

With respect to keeping Charisma high, I like the concept of actually finding a good use for it (note that I specced max ranks in Intimidate and the Creepy Doll alternate racial trait, although I didn't invest any feats in it) rather than just dumping it, although sometimes dumping is unavoidable (goodbye, Strength -- hence speccing max ranks + a Trait for Escape Artist). Technically I could do even better using Charisma with the Seducer Witch archetype, but now that would be REALLY creepy . . . .

Lelomenia wrote:

{. . .}

I also like Sorcerer for blasting (not topical),
{. . .}

It's topical if you put battlefield control on top of your blasting. The Metamagic penalty to spontaneous casting time hurts, but as I posted above, if you have some way of mitigating it when you most need to, it isn't a complete show-stopper.

Edited to add some missing stuff and fix some mangled stuff.


Okay, I don't have to get up early this morning, so here's the fixed (at least rules-legal) version:

Witch, Halfling, Debuffing:
Witch (Gravewalker -- loses this archetype when redeemed, Elements Patron), Halfling with Creepy Doll alternate racial trait (no penalty to Intimidate for being Small) replacing Keen Senses and Sure-Footed, Halfling Jinx replacing Halfling Luck, and Dimdweller replacing Weapon Familiarity.

Brief character concept: This character is intended for Giantslayer, and is a runaway slave from Cheliax who was mutilated into looking like a doll, and wants revenge on larger creatures, but who just might find redemption.

15 Point Buy version: Str (7 - 2 =) 5 / Dex (12 + 2) = 14 / Con 12 / Int 17 / Wis 10 / Cha (12 + 2 =) 14; all ability score increases go to Intelligence.

20 Point Buy version: Str (8 - 2 =) 6 / Dex (14 + 2) = 16 / Con 12 / Int 17 / Wis 10 / Cha (12 + 2 =) 14; all ability score increases go to Intelligence.

Traits: Outlander (Exile -- get +2 Initiative) (Universal Campaign Trait, because none of the Giantslayer Campaign Traits fit), Unshackled (get Escape Artist in class).

Favored Class Bonus: All Favored Class Bonus goes to Skills (always really hard up for skill points, and unfortunately, the Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Witch isn't very good).

Skill ranks per level: Total 7: 2 for Witch, 1 for Cunning feat (levels 1 through 3 only), 1 for Favored Class Bonus, 3 for Intelligence 16 (eventually get more, starting at level 4).

Skills to Max: Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), Spellcraft, Perception, Use Magic Device.

Skills to Max - 3: Knowledge (Arcana).

Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb, Fly (eventually needs to be more than 1), Knowledge (all not listed above, and some eventually need to be more than 1), Sense Motive, Stealth, Swim.

01: Level 1 character feat = Cunning (needed for extra skill points until Intelligence increases -- retrain at level 4); level 1 Hex Substitute = Gravewalker Aura of Desecration (if redeemed, lose this and gain Aura of Purity Hex); Level 4 Hex Substitute (gained at 1st level) = Gravewalker Bonethrall (if redeemed, lose this and gain Peacebond Hex); level 1 Familiar Substitute = Gravewalker Spell Poppet.
02: Level 2 Hex = Slumber.
03: Level 3 character feat = Accursed Hex.
04: Level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence (gain 1 extra skill point per level, which compensates for retraining Cunning); Retrain Cunning to Sluggish Jinx.
05: Level 5 character feat = Persistent Spell.
06: Level 6 Hex = Misfortune.
07: Level 7 character feat = Widen Spell (required for Area Jinx).
08: Level 8 Hex Substitute = Gravewalker Possess Undead (if redeemed, lose this and gain Fortune Hex); level 8 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
09: Level 9 character feat = Jinxed Spell.
10: Level 10 Hex = Retribution.
11: Level 11 character feat = Area Jinx (needed for Jinxed Spell to be fully effective).
12: Level 12 Hex = Agony (if redeemed, lose this and gain Major Ameliorating); level 12 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
13: Level 13 character feat = Split Hex (double your Hexing action economy).
14: Level 14 Hex = Waxen Image.
15: Level 15 character feat = Quicken Spell (use mainly with Ill Omen to produce the equivalent of a No-Save Misfortune effect).
16: Level 16 Hex = Regenerative Sinew; level 16 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
17: Level 17 character feat = Arcane Jinxer (Witch is a bit short on spell slots to sacrifice for this, but still profitable to have in reserve against something really tough, and in a pinch could be used as an alternative to Bolster Jinx if really short on feats, which tends to be the case for this build); alternatively get Dazing Spell to turn blasts into battlefield control.
18: Level 18 Hex = Life Giver (if redeemed, take this first) or Summon Spirit (otherwise).
19: Level 19 character feat = Split Major Hex (double your Major Hexing action economy).
20: Level 20 Hex = Summon Spirit or Life Giver (whichever one was not taken at level 18); level 20 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.

Still really tight on feats, and for that matter also tight on Standard Actions. I think the problem is trying to cram too much debuffing onto 1 chassis, so if I was going to do another version, I would split this into a Sorcerer build with a better-invested Jinx for debuffing (taking advantage of Charisma-based casting for better DC and Sorcerer bonus feats to help with the feat tightness) and a Witch build without the Jinx (which is competing for Standard actions and feats anyway and is yet another debuff, of which Witch already has plenty).


Wow, taking out the Jinxing stuff (except for Jinx itself to use as a standby until Hexes come online) really frees up the rest of the build to do both battlefield control (either get Dazing Spell much earlier, or get Craft Rod to make an Intermediate Metamagic Rod of it) and other debuffing stuff.

Witch, Halfling, Debuffing, like the above build, but use Halfling Jinx just as a standby until Hexes come online:

Witch (Gravewalker -- loses this archetype if redeemed, Elements Patron), Halfling with Creepy Doll alternate racial trait (no penalty to Intimidate for being Small) replacing Keen Senses and Sure-Footed, Halfling Jinx replacing Halfling Luck (if redeemed, lose the Halfling Jinx alternate racial trait in favor of the original Halfling Luck), and Dimdweller replacing Weapon Familiarity.

Brief character concept: This character is intended for Giantslayer, and is a runaway slave from Cheliax who was mutilated into looking like a doll, and wants revenge on larger creatures, but who just might find redemption.

15 Point Buy version: Str (7 - 2 =) 5 / Dex (12 + 2) = 14 / Con 12 / Int 17 / Wis 10 / Cha (12 + 2 =) 14; all ability score increases go to Intelligence.

20 Point Buy version: Str (8 - 2 =) 6 / Dex (14 + 2) = 16 / Con 12 / Int 17 / Wis 10 / Cha (12 + 2 =) 14; all ability score increases go to Intelligence.

Traits: Outlander (Exile -- get +2 Initiative) (Universal Campaign Trait, because none of the Giantslayer Campaign Traits fit), Unshackled (get Escape Artist in class).

Favored Class Bonus: All Favored Class Bonus goes to Skills (always really hard up for skill points, and unfortunately, the Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Witch isn't very good).

Skill ranks per level: Total 7: 2 for Witch, 1 for Cunning feat (levels 1 through 3 only), 1 for Favored Class Bonus, 3 for Intelligence 16 (eventually get more, starting at level 4).

Skills to Max: Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), Spellcraft, Perception, Use Magic Device.

Skills to Max - 3: Knowledge (Arcana).

Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb, Fly (eventually needs to be more than 1), Knowledge (all not listed above, and some eventually need to be more than 1), Sense Motive, Stealth, Swim.

01: Level 1 character feat = Cunning (needed for extra skill points until Intelligence increases -- retrain at level 4); level 1 Hex Substitute = Gravewalker Aura of Desecration (if redeemed, lose this and gain Aura of Purity Hex); Level 4 Hex Substitute (gained at 1st level) = Gravewalker Bonethrall (if redeemed, lose this and gain Peacebond Hex); level 1 Familiar Substitute = Gravewalker Spell Poppet.
02: Level 2 Hex = Slumber.
03: Level 3 character feat = Misfortune.
04: Level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence (gain 1 extra skill point per level, which compensates for retraining Cunning); Retrain Cunning to Accursed Hex.
05: Level 5 character feat = Persistent Spell.
06: Level 6 Hex = Flight.
07: Level 7 character feat = Extra Hex (Evil Eye).
08: Level 8 Hex Substitute = Gravewalker Possess Undead (if redeemed, lose this and gain Fortune Hex); level 8 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
09: Level 9 character feat = Dazing Spell (turn damaging spells into battlefield control); if downtime is reliably available, instead get Craft Rod, and use first to make Intermediate Metamagic Rod of Dazing Spell, and later to make Intermediate Metamagic Rods of Persistent Spell, Widen Spell, and assorted non-Metamagic Rods.
10: Level 10 Hex = Retribution.
11: Level 11 character feat = Split Hex (double your Hexing action economy).
12: Level 12 Hex = Agony (if redeemed, lose this and gain Major Ameliorating); level 12 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
13: Level 13 character feat = Quicken Spell (use mainly with Ill Omen to produce the equivalent of a No-Save Misfortune effect).
14: Level 14 Hex = Waxen Image.
15: Level 15 character feat = Widen Spell (if Dazing Spell was not selected at 9th level, get this instead).
16: Level 16 Hex = Regenerative Sinew; level 16 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
17: Level 17 character feat = Spell Perfection (Cone of Cold if not redeemed or Freezing Sphere if redeemed) (enables casting the selected spell with Dazing Spell and Intermediate Metamagic Rod of Persistent Spell).
18: Level 18 Hex = Life Giver (if redeemed, take this first) or Summon Spirit (otherwise).
19: Level 19 character feat = Split Major Hex (double your Major Hexing action economy).
20: Level 20 Hex = Summon Spirit or Life Giver (whichever one was not taken at level 18); level 20 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.

I guess it really doesn't pay to double down too much on one thing (debuffing, etc.).

Next I want to do the Jinxing Sorcerer version . . . .


'Spell Perfection and Rods of Metamagic are your friend here.' - Spell perfection doesn't help because it's so late, level 15 minimum. This is not an answer to problems with the game being half over by the time your trick comes online. Metamagic rods - persistent is the only one of those feats which actually exists in rod form. Lesser persistent's 9K which is over half your WBL until 7th level (shadow grasp would be the same if it existed), and still enough to be painful for some levels after. I don't think I'd get it before 9th but maybe that's just my own poor saving habits. For me neither of those would fix the problem of lateness; YMMV.

'But your build has the same problem.' - Nah, you missed the metamagic knowledge (piercing spell). Not that it matters as you pointed out next.

On the non-jinx witch build, cone of cold and freezing sphere are both terrible spells to perfect. Flame strike would be far better with dazing spell since it does damage nothing's immune to, and you can cast it on enemies who aren't in position to charge you (unlike cone of cold) and it can be quickened (unlike freezing sphere).

A sorcerer gets a couple of bonus feats which puts it between a witch and a wizard for practicality with jinxing. If you're doing the undead bloodline for creepiness (or wildblooded sanguine) then you could get iron will for bolster jinx that way if not much else. Psychic might be as creepy and has better bonus feats.


avr wrote:
'Spell Perfection and Rods of Metamagic are your friend here.' - Spell perfection doesn't help because it's so late, level 15 minimum. This is not an answer to problems with the game being half over by the time your trick comes online. Metamagic rods - persistent is the only one of those feats which actually exists in rod form. Lesser persistent's 9K which is over half your WBL until 7th level (shadow grasp would be the same if it existed), and still enough to be painful for some levels after. I don't think I'd get it before 9th but maybe that's just my own poor saving habits. For me neither of those would fix the problem of lateness; YMMV.

I didn't find Shadow Grasp, Tenebrous, or Umbral in the Archives of Nethys list of Metamagic Rods, but the ones that I was actually planning use in the build above are all in there. They are too horribly expensive to buy, but if you can craft them yourself, it becomes potentially doable.

avr wrote:
'But your build has the same problem.' - Nah, you missed the metamagic knowledge (piercing spell). Not that it matters as you pointed out next.

I see, it looked weird because you had Metamagic Knowledge (Piercing Spell) listed after Jinxed Spell, but looking back I see that they are both at 7th level. Although if I wanted improved penetration of Spell Resistance, I would be inclined to get Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration instead of Piercing Spell if I cuold afford the feats, since this does not increase the level of spell slot you have to use, and if I couldn't afford the feats, then try to get it on a Metamagic Rod (although as noted above, that's expensive).

avr wrote:
On the non-jinx witch build, cone of cold and freezing sphere are both terrible spells to perfect. Flame strike would be far better with dazing spell since it does damage nothing's immune to, and you can cast it on enemies who aren't in position to charge you (unlike cone of cold) and it can be quickened (unlike freezing sphere).

I thought about Flame Strike, but the area is just too small (even with Widen Spell) if you are going to be fighting a bunch of Giants, especially outside where they will tend to spread out and you won't even be able to get 2 to 4 of them by positioning the area to cover 1 square in part of each one's space. Even Fireball (if the Gravewalker archetype didn't replace it) has this problem to some extent, although at least it has enough area that Widen Spell would make it decent, although at the cost of it having the DC and number of Dazing Spell rounds of a 3rd level spell instead of a 6th level spell (as well as a lower damage cap, although that doesn't matter as much). Of course, if you're up against Frost Giants, you'd have to use something that isn't a Cold spell (or somehow get Elemental Spell into the mix). A Witch (or even a properly built spontaneous caster) isn't a one-trick pony with this, and this isn't for everything -- other spells(*) and all the debuff Hexes should work fine on Frost Giants.

(*)For instance, Black Tentacles (a classic battlefield control spell) with Widen Spell. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to use your Intelligence bonus for calculating the CMB, but nevertheless, at the lowest level at which you can cast this combination without a Metamagic Rod (13th), the spell will have a CMB of 13 + 4 + 1 (assuming that Widen Spell doesn't increase their Size Bonus) = 18 and Escape CMD of 28, while the Frost Giants have a CMD of 29 and CMB of 20 if you haven't done anything else to debuff them yet. So Black Tentacles will grab them on a roll of 11 or better, and if grabbed, they will escape the grapple on a roll of 8 or better, but grabbed or not, the whole area is Difficult Terrain, and they will have several more chances to get grabbed before they can get out of it, and several more chances for you or your martials or other minions to mess them up, especially when they get to the edge in small numbers at a time (and debuffing them with the right Hexes will hamper their ability to escape). More likely at this level, Frost Giants will be minions of something else (possibly a considerably leveled up Frost Giant), so you deal with that first (it will probably get out of the Black Tentacles area first, but will be missing most of its help). This should also be effective against things of similar CMB/CMD that have Spell Resistance, which would have a decent chance to shrug off Flame Strike but doesn't help them against Black Tentacles. This would also work at 9th level substituting the Widen Spell Metamagic Rod (if you managed to make it) for Widen Spell, although your Black Tentacles CMB and Escape CMD would be lower by 4 (although at this level, these are more likely to be the main enemies, and likely be a few rather than a horde).

avr wrote:
A sorcerer gets a couple of bonus feats which puts it between a witch and a wizard for practicality with jinxing. If you're doing the undead bloodline for creepiness (or wildblooded sanguine) then you could get iron will for bolster jinx that way if not much else. Psychic might be as creepy and has better bonus feats.

Looking into those for the Sorcerer build, thanks -- although I suspect Arcane will still be the best, since it has the ability to ignore the Metamagic spontaneous casting time increase a few times per day, and it also has Iron Will, while the Bloodline Arcana makes Metamagic (other than Heighten Spell) better, but especially Persistent Spell. Psychic Bloodline (which should really be an archetype, not a regular Bloodline) is also pretty good, though.

Undead/Sanguine Bloodline isn't entirely without benefit, either. Both Bloodline Arcanas are servicable, although the regular Undead Bloodline Arcana is probably the more useful overall. At low levels, Grave Touch against an opponent you have successfully Intimidated earlier is a free No-Save Get Away From ME command; at later levels, Quickened Cause Feat + Grave Touch is a free No-Save Get Away From Me command in just 1 round (because even if they save against Cause Fear, they are still Shaken, and Grave Touch bumps that back up to Frightened) -- of course, save this for when something gets through your front line (although it will be hard to use against something that has Reach if you didn't already have Long Arm running -- mental note: be sure to get that spell). This will work even on enemy Undead, if they were once Humanoid. The Sanguine replacement for this, of course, saves work for your party healer, but it isn't very good at doing so (and will probably gross out the rest of the party even more than making Undead), so this is swapout bait (actually, just get the regular Undead Bloodline, since the regular Bloodline Arcana is better anyway unless you are really pushing the limit on making monster amounts of Undead). The Death's Gift is decent defense. Grasp of the Dead is a thematically appropriate blast, but doesn't have any way to put a rider effect on it other than the single round movement prevention it puts on itself, so this is swapout bait with both versions of this Bloodline (replacement is Blood Piercing, which is like free Piercing Spell for a slowly scaling handful of times per day, but potentially even better than Piercing Spell if you cranked your Charisma high enough). Incorporeal Form is decent for getting away when things get bad, although the limit of once per day really hurts, so you probably won't be inclined to use it for scouting. One of Us is an okay capstone.

While we're on the subject of battlefield control spells, I just remembered another blast that has some battlefield control built in: Battering Blast (Arcanist/Sorcerer/Wizard only unless you have some ability to snag off-list spells) -- it has a Bull Rush and a sort-of Trip built into it (worse than real Trip against things with good Reflex Saves, but better than real Trip against things with poor Reflex Saves, like most Giants, and the Reflex Save only mitigates the Trip, not the Bull Rush or the damage). And the total damage scaling is insane -- at 20th level, if you apply Intensified Spell, Empower Spell, and Maximize Spell to it (total spell slot level 9th level), this is 360 points of damage if all 4 force spheres hit, and even if you had to forgo the Empower Spell in favor of 2 ranks of Reach Spell to get up to Long Range, it is still 240 points of damage, which is a Yamato Cannon.


At CL 20, with Intensify, your Battering Blast gives 7d6; Intensify increases the level cap by 5, not the dice total. And maximize/empower don’t fully stack, so the damage of CL 20 Intensified Maximized Empowered Battering Blast ends up at 217, vs, for example, 315 for Intensified/Empowered Hellfire Ray.

Battering Blast can be very strong, but you really want CL 25+ and Blood Intensity before it stands out. And most campaigns don’t spend a lot of time with PCs at or above CL 25.


I would highly recommend a Druid as a good option for battlefield control. They have a very solid mix of spells overall with a lot of spells that just work all the time (Save=No, SR=No) and can effect multiple targets. They can also have excellent combat ability assuming decent physical stats and an animal companion to add to the fun. Being able to fight is always a good backup and adds to your character's endurance over a long adventure.


Lelomenia wrote:

At CL 20, with Intensify, your Battering Blast gives 7d6; Intensify increases the level cap by 5, not the dice total. And maximize/empower don’t fully stack, so the damage of CL 20 Intensified Maximized Empowered Battering Blast ends up at 217, vs, for example, 315 for Intensified/Empowered Hellfire Ray.

Battering Blast can be very strong, but you really want CL 25+ and Blood Intensity before it stands out. And most campaigns don’t spend a lot of time with PCs at or above CL 25.

Okay, I read the spell description wrong (I thought it said 1d6 per caster level, max 5d6 per force ball, which I thought was weird, so I even read it several times). So Battering Blast is only highly broken, not absurdly broken.

Yes, Hellfire Ray is another Yamato Cannon, although since it's 6th level instead of 3rd level, it's harder to stack all the metamagic on it, and in the event that it does come up short of killing something, it doesn't have the free Hyper-Persistent Bull Rush and free Quasi-Toppling-Spell built into it (which Battering Blast has while only being 3rd level -- at the very least, this should be substantially level-bumped). To get Dazing Spell onto Hellfire Ray, you would have to forgo the damage amplifiers or use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Dazing Spell (Spell Perfection doesn't work if the metamagic feats put the total spell slot level over 9 before considering the Spell Perfection reduction).


In case somebody comes through here later looking for stuff to pick up, here's a correction for the record, before I put together my Sorcerer build:

Earlier, I wrote:

{. . .}

Undead/Sanguine Bloodline isn't entirely without benefit, either. Both Bloodline Arcanas are servicable, although the regular Undead Bloodline Arcana is probably the more useful overall. At low levels, Grave Touch against an opponent you have successfully Intimidated earlier is a free No-Save Get Away From ME command; at later levels, Quickened Cause Feat + Grave Touch is a free No-Save Get Away From Me command in just 1 round (because even if they save against Cause Fear, they are still Shaken, and Grave Touch bumps that back up to Frightened) {. . .}

I missed the 5 Hit Dice cap on Cause Fear to work at all, so this would only work in the specific situation that you somehow managed to get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell (35000 gp to buy, and you can't craft it yourself before level 9, and this exceeds your Wealth By Level until level 9). Unfortunately, to do the same trick with a spell that can make targets Shaken even on a successful Save and that doesn't have a Hit Dice cap, you need to go all the way up to . . . Fear itself, which is 4th level, so you need an Intermediate Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell (75500 gp to buy, but by this point you're just a little bit short of the point at which you could craft it yourself, which gets it down to 37500 gp), and then you have to worry about accidentally hitting your allies (unless you already got Selective Spell for some other reason, which is not a bad idea, but you have to wait until at least level 10 for this, which in practice usually means level 11).


Okay, here's the Sorcerer build (and no, I didn't go for the Arcane Bloodline for the easier Metamagic -- instead, I went Harrowed as explained in the Spoiler).

Build variant 2 of 2: Keep the Jinxing, but actually be a Harrowed Sorcerer instead of a Witch:
Sorcerer (Harrow Bloodline), Halfling with Creepy Doll alternate racial trait (no penalty to Intimidate for being Small) replacing Keen Senses and Sure-Footed, Halfling Jinx replacing Halfling Luck, and Dimdweller replacing Weapon Familiarity.

Brief character concept: As posted before, this character is intended for Giantslayer, and is a runaway slave from Cheliax who was mutilated into looking like a doll, and wants revenge on larger creatures, but who just might find redemption. In this variant, the cruel slavemaster sculpted this character into the form of a fortune-telling doll (think Zoltar from Big), only to charge witchcraft upon discovering that the fortune-telling had an element of reality.

15 Point Buy version: Str (7 - 2 =) 5 / Dex (13 + 2) = 15 / Con 12 / Int 15 / Wis 10 / Cha (15 + 2 =) 18; level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence; level 8 ability score increase goes to Dexterity; all ability score increases thereafter go to Charisma.

20 Point Buy version: Str (9 - 2 =) 7 / Dex (14 + 2) = 16 / Con 12 / Int 15 / Wis 10 / Cha (15 + 2 =) 18; level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence; all ability score increases thereafter go to Charisma.

Traits: Outlander (Exile -- get +2 Initiative) (Universal Campaign Trait, because none of the Giantslayer Campaign Traits fit), Chip on the Shoulder (get Intimidate in class, with bonus applying to opponents that tried to Intimidate).

Favored Class Bonus: All Favored Class Bonus goes to Skills (always really hard up for skill points, and unfortunately, the Halfling Favored Class Bonus for Witch isn't very good).

Skill ranks per level: Total 6 (at level 4 goes to 7): 2 for Sorcerer, 1 for Cunning feat, 1 for Favored Class Bonus, 3 for Intelligence 15 (at level 4 goes to 4 ranks).

Skills to Max: Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Local), Spellcraft, Perception, Use Magic Device.

Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb, Fly (eventually needs to be more than 1), Knowledge (all not listed above, and some eventually need to be more than 1), Sense Motive, Stealth, Swim.

01: Level 1 character feat = Cunning (needed for extra skill points, and can't even afford to retrain it).
02: -
03: Level 3 character feat = Sluggish Jinx.
04: Level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence (absolutely must have the extra skill points, so also keep the Cunning feat).
05: Level 5 character feat = Lightning Reflexes (better for offense against Giants via Bolster Jinx to worsen their already bad Reflex Saves -- Iron Will would be better for self-defense).
06: -
07: Level 7 character feat = Bolster Jinx; level 7 Harrow Bloodline bonus feat = Extend Spell.
08: Level 8 ability score increase goes to Dexterity if on 15 point buy or Charisma if on 20 point buy.
09: Level 9 character feat = Widen Spell (required for Area Jinx).
10: -
11: Level 11 character feat = Jinxed Spell.
12: Level 12 ability score increase goes to Charisma.
13: Level 13 character feat = Area Jinx (needed for Jinxed Spell to be fully effective); level 13 Harrow Bloodline bonus feat = Craft Wondrous Item.
14: -
15: Level 15 character feat = Craft Rod, and use first to make Intermediate Metamagic Rods of Dazing Spell, Persistent Spell, and Quicken Spell, and later make assorted non-Metamagic Rods.
16: Level 16 ability score increase goes to Charisma.
17: Level 17 character feat = Spell Perfection (Cone of Cold) (enables casting the selected spell with Jinxed Spell + Widen Spell + Intermediate Metamagic Rod of Dazing Spell).
18: -
19: Level 19 character feat = Iron Will (good for defense and for adding to Bolster Jinx); level 19 Harrow Bloodline bonus feat = Harrowed.
20: -

Note: Although Cone of Cold by itself has fairly low range (60' cone), with Widen Spell it actually starts to get to decent range (120' cone). Spell Perfection cuts out the level cost of Widen Spell, and being a 5th level spell, Cone of Cold has headroom of 1 level to accommodate Jinxed Spell and still be valid for use with an Intermediate Metamagic Rod. The problem is that Area Jinx/Jinxed Spell only gets a fairly small fraction of the area (would need a LOT of ranks of Area Jinx to get most of the area). With all the investment needed to get Jinxed Spell to work, looks like it really is better to just skip that (again use Jinx only as an early-level standby) and just invest in regular battlefield control Metamagic, even on a Sorcerer.


Okay, look, that's far too many skills on a sorcerer, they do skills poorly. You want skills you do something Int based (if sorcerer: wildblooded sage), or you outsource some (a sage familiar can handle a few and sage + figment implies it's a part of your damaged mind; the tattooed sorcerer archetype gets a familiar) or you go for something with actual skill points in class.

Like a mesmerist. 6 base skill points solves a lot of your problems and their hypnotic gaze would help land a jinx. Metamagic isn't their greatest thing as a 6-level caster but jinxed spell is just +1 level, it's doable. Spell perfection is weirdly effective on a 6-level caster who can give out save penalties, should you get so far.


That's a problem of Pathfinder inheriting from D&D the idea of anybody other than a Bard, Ranger, or Rogue only getting a ridiculously small number of skills (Pathfinder did add some more exceptions later), clashing with my idea of somebody who managed to get themselves out of slavery (need Escape Artist or you'll never get away, and need Perception or you'll just get caught again) while retaining some creepy flavor (need Intimidate) while being able to do their job where they end up (need Spellcraft and Use Magic Device for self-explanatory reasons, and need Knowledge (Local) if you're going up against Giants). Although I should look into the idea of outsourcing some skills. And a Creepy Doll Mesmerist is actually a pretty cool idea . . . I guess now I'm going to actually study the class in some detail . . . .


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In terms of utility-casting, there are three stand-out options that come to mind, beyond just picking a class with a broad spell list like Wizard or Arcanist.

1. The Loremaster prestige class and then taking the feat Secret of Magical Discipline to be able to raid any spell list for that one spell you need once per day for every time you've taken the feat. Loremaster isn't exactly a bad PrC to enter for those who can easily qualify, either.

2. Shaman that has wandering spirit to grab the Lore Spirit and then grab its Arcane Enlightenment Hex temporarily can pilfer the entire Wizard List, a few spells at a time on an as-needed basis, while the Human favored class bonus allows one to add a selection of spells from the Cleric spell list to your already pretty good spell list. Unsworn Shaman can do it a bit earlier, but isn't required.

3. The Spell Sage Wizard gives up a fair bit, but it is able to pilfer from the Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell lists in addition to being a Wizard. So they can, eventually, provide just about any utility spells you might desire. Allfood is about the only utility spell I can think of that they can't do, and they have other ways to break and destroy objects than to make them food and have someone or something eat it.


Coidzor wrote:

In terms of utility-casting, there are three stand-out options that come to mind, beyond just picking a class with a broad spell list like Wizard or Arcanist.

1. The Loremaster prestige class and then taking the feat Secret of Magical Discipline to be able to raid any spell list for that one spell you need once per day for every time you've taken the feat. Loremaster isn't exactly a bad PrC to enter for those who can easily qualify, either.

Good find, but wow, they are really stingy on what these feats to go beyond your class will normally let you do. It's consistent with the stinginess of the feats I linked way above: Spontaneous Metafocus (cast a spell spontaneously with Metamagic without increasing the casting time) and Versatile Spontaneity (prepare a spell as a normally spontaneous caster). What I'd like to see: Make things like Secret of Magical Discipline work more like the Magus Arcana Spell Blending, which is still limited in scope, but doesn't have that once per day poison pill. Also backport Arcane Evolution from 2nd Edition to 1st Edition (they didn't think it was broken in 2nd Edition -- why the timidity in 1st Edition?).

Coidzor wrote:
2. Shaman that has wandering spirit to grab the Lore Spirit and then grab its Arcane Enlightenment Hex temporarily can pilfer the entire Wizard List, a few spells at a time on an as-needed basis, while the Human favored class bonus allows one to add a selection of spells from the Cleric spell list to your already pretty good spell list. Unsworn Shaman can do it a bit earlier, but isn't required.

People also used to recommend doing this as a Spirit Guide Oracle (the Shaman Lore Spirit Arcane Enlightenment is what you want, because the Oracle Lore Mystery's Arcane Archivist is even stingier than the above-mentioned feats). But then somebody realized that Rules As Written, it's a trap, because the exact wording of the Shaman Lore Spirit Arcane Enlightenment text adds those spells to your Shaman spells, and an Oracle doesn't have Shaman spells.

Coidzor wrote:
3. The Spell Sage Wizard gives up a fair bit, but it is able to pilfer from the Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell lists in addition to being a Wizard. So they can, eventually, provide just about any utility spells you might desire. Allfood is about the only utility spell I can think of that they can't do, and they have other ways to break and destroy objects than to make them food and have someone or something eat it.

Spell Sage Wizard gives up a fair bit, but gets a fair bit too, although the uses per day are punishingly limited. Not only do you get to cast spells from the Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell lists, but if you really have to beat a tough caster level check (whether or not at the same time you are doing this), you can boost your caster level by 4. Use to beat spell resistance, beat caster level check to remove a bad condition, or increase the damage of a blast (you wouldn't want to do this normally, but if you're up against a Swarm, particularly at low levels, it could save your life(*)), or boost the effectiveness of a spell that has a DC dependent upon caster level (like the classic battlefield control spell Black Tentacles). I wonder if this caster level boost ability would also work for magic item creation, including but not limited to using it to Scribe a boosted Scroll?

(*)Burning Hands damage 1d4 per caster level is a bad joke at 1st level. Burning hands boosted from 1st level by 4 caster levels isn't so funny any more (for the Swarms -- 5d4 * 1.5 = average 18.75 will kill or almost kill a Swarm of up to CR 2 and get most of the way there on a CR 3 Swarm if it fails its Reflex Save, making it easier for the rest of your party to finish it off with Alchemist's Fire, or even with weapon damage if it is made of Tiny creatures). And at 3rd level, if you're really expecting trouble from Swarms, you could even make use of Intensified Spell much earlier than anybody else could (7d4 * 1.5 = average 26.25 will get most of the way to killing a CR 3 or 4 Swarm if it fails its Save). Since it's hard to do battlefield control on a Swarm, especially at low levels, and especially if it is flying, and since Color Spray won't affect most Vermin Swarms since they are mindless, this is potentially important. (At CR 5 you start encountering Swarms like Vescavors, and then this starts becoming obsolete even if you haven't completely maxed out the Intensified Spell dice. I haven't done an exhaustive survey of Swarms, so some lower CR Swarms might be tougher to kill this way, or some higher CR Swarms might be easier to kill this way.)

Not everybody needs a Spell Sage, but if you need it, you need it bad.

Skalds that don't trade out Spell Kenning can also pilfer the Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard spell lists and even use it to cast Bard spells they don't have in their repertoire; being 6/9 casters, they can't get spells of levels as high as a Spell Sage Wizard, and the uses per day is still quite limited, and they don't have a caster level boost ability that they can use at the same time, but on the other hand, they don't have to spend 2 spell slots to use this, and the casting time increase isn't as brutal as it is for a Spell Sage Wizard (for a Skald, it doesn't go beyond a full round casting time unless the spell already has a longer casting time, so a Skald could actually do okay by using Spell Kenning to cast Black Tentacles in the middle of a battle, as long as they can find a safe spot from which to do so). Note that like Wizards, Skalds also get free Scribe Scroll.


A medium can also play the pilfer spell list game... but I wouldn't recommend one as a utility caster except in downtime.


IMO by far the easiest and possibly most effective option for spell list pilfering is via borderline cheesy Samsaran/Mystic Past Life

Its good for Witches and caster Clerics due to the WIS and INT boost, and especially good for Clerics as they are only lacking a few key spells to give their own spell list the final polish. Witches can make some key grabs from the Wiz list too.

Silver Crusade

I have found a Half-Orc, Heavens Spirit, Speaker for the Past Shaman to be a great utility caster. The half-orc (or human) favored class bonus allows you to poach spells off the cleric list.

I personally consider the Arcane Enlightenment Hex a bit of trap option, making your stats very MAD (and requiring the Lore Spirit). The Speaker for the Past archetype gives you access to some good "arcane" spells anyway (Haste, Heroism, Contingency, Permanency, Time Stop).


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More ways to poach other lists' spells (including battlefield control/utility, but ignoring fixed bonus spells like from Cleric Domains, Oracle Mysteries, Sorcerer Bloodlines, or Witch Patrons):

    •Coldzor already mentioned Loremaster prestige class (even just a 1 level dip) + Secret of Magical Discipline feat -- unfortunately only 1 use per day for each time you take the feat, but doesn't level-bump the spell, and doesn't have to be the same spell each time you use it, and you can do this with spells up to the highest level of spell you can cast.
    Dreamed Secrets feat (for divine casters) -- actually should be called Nightmare Secrets, but if you meet the prerequisites for this, that's a feature, not a bug; this is more for GM's creating NPCs.
    Fey Spell Lore feat (Druid-specific) -- Lesser Confusion is the only one in there that is (sort of) battlefield control, but get a bunch of bonus spells for one feat, and it keeps getting more as you go up in level.
    Pathfinder Savant prestige class -- at each of levels 2 through 10, you get a bonus spell, although if it is off some other list, it gets level-bumped by 1. Doesn't progress spellcasting at its 1st level, so you'll need to try to fit in Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster. Note that Pathfinder Savant also eventually makes you better at Use Magic Device, which can effectively add some useful utility spells even if you don't add them to your actual spell list.
    Feyspeaker Druid archetype -- like Pathfinder Savant, but only applies to poaching Sorcerer/Wizard Enchantment or Illusion spells, and is spread out to every even numbered level from 4 through 18.
    Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle archetype -- like Feyspeaker Druid, but starts at 2nd level and not restricted to the Enchantment and Illusion schools; oddly better as a Half-Elf than as an Elf, due to being able to put your +2 anywhere, as well as eventually getting access to that cheesiest of Cheese, Paragon Surge (which among other things, can be used to temporarily get Expanded Arcana to give yourself access one or two situational spells from your own spell list, or to give yourself a situational Metamagic feat, and you could even get Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) (unfortunately requires Skill Focus (Disguise) as a feat tax, but at least factory default Half-Elf comes with a bonus Skill Focus) to extend the duration of Paragon Surge eventually to hours per level, at which point you could actually use it to get temporary Item Creation feats for long enough to make good use of them (Weapons-Grade Cheese = Limburger). (Note that the Paragon Surge tricks are not restricted to Oracles -- it is just that being Charisma-based spontaneous casters that have it on their list, Oracles are in one of the best positions to get maximum use of this, exceeded only by a Magus, who can pair Paragon Surge with Tactical Adaptation to get 2 temporary feats, or especially an Eldritch Scion Magus who can both do this and reasonably have enough Charisma to get Improved Eldritch Heritage without becoming too MAD, although unfortunately Eldritch Scion is not a very good Magus archetype overall.)
    Spell Blending Magus Arcana -- speaking of Magi, they can poach any Sorcerer/Wizard spell of up to 6th level with Spell Blending and eventually with Greater Spell Access. The Magus spell list is missing some Sorcerer/Wizard battlefield control spells, so this could make a difference.
    Hexcrafter Magus archetype -- get access to every Curse spell from all lists, as long as they are no higher than 6th level, as well as get a few Hexes, while still being pretty good in combat. See build linked way above.
    Magic Warrior Magus archetype -- get 7 Druid spells, although that's way up at 19th level.
    Puppetmaster Magus archetype -- get access to the whole Bard spell list. Normally not recommended to pick spells that interact with Bardic Performance, but if you also go VMC Bard, you can use those too.
    Magaambyan Initiate Arcanist archetype -- get some Cleric spells with the Good descriptor and/or some Druid spells, but instead of these spells being higher level, you have to spend Arcane Reservoir points in addition to the spell slot to cast them.
    Magaambyan Arcanist prestige class -- get some Druid spells, one at every level; they must be at least 2 levels lower than the highest you can cast, but they aren't level-bumped, and they don't cost Arcane Reservoir points to cast, and your base class doesn't even have to be Arcanist.

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