Sorry to be back here griping so soon after my last query, but I think this issue might be relevant to more people than just me so maybe it can help other GMs with similar issues. I'm going to run down what I think my players are doing wrong and give some examples of how I've tried to help. Then you guys can tell me where I went right, where I went wrong, and what has worked for y'all in the past.
I'm running a kingdom building and exploration campaign in a homebrew world with a party of five. They recently hit level ten (they started at fifth) and it's been a rough ride. Party composition has changed around some since one player changed his character, one player left, and another player is joining next session, but it looks roughly like this: wizard, ranged martial, occultist/fighter multiclass, disciple of the pike cavalier, melee martial. Ranged martial was a thrower, now a gunslinger. Melee martial was a brawler, he left and the player joining is a melee focused warpriest.
I am really loathe to say someone is playing wrong or GMing wrong because we all have our styles and wants but I think I can safely say their playing wrong. Every player has nearly died many times, everyone has died at least once, and a few players have died more than once. There has been one TPK and one effective TPK though technically a few were still alive; they were just permanently out of commission. During the two TPK events, the party had, coincidentally, met with a powerful entity. The first was a patron demigod and the second was a fae lord. In both cases, they were able to bargain for their resurrection/healing for some price. In the other deaths they bought scrolls or paid for casting of spells. I've also been generous on a couple occasions behind the screen and fudged some otherwise lethal rolls against party members. Perhaps that was too generous of me, IDK.
With all this death and danger, I'd thought they might realize that they aren't diversifying their options. They spend all the money they get on four things: better weapons, better armor, scrolls (for the wizard to copy and that's it), and crafting (wizard crafts wondrous items and armor and weapons, occultist crafts healing potions). They aren't interested in anything that isn't those four things.
For example, they were fighting oni last time, and I knew no one had fire or acid attacks (occultist doesn't have evocation and wizard is from the metal school) so I stuck in a wand of acid arrow with 14 charges halfway through the adventure so they could finish off the rest without using their torches (which I had to remind them they had since no one could think of how to deal fire damage). Another example comes from fighting a magma dragon. In the hoard they found, among other things a wand of restoration and a strand of prayer beads (greater version, and they know what it does). They decided no one needed the prayer beads and since no one in the party had the spell on their list, they decided to toss out the wand. One of the players mentioned that the warpriest joining next week could use it. The wizard mentioned that the party didn't know she was joining so it didn't matter. I mentioned that they have two allied NPCs who can use the wand and would be more than happy to use it on them when they are at home base so they don't have to keep paying for that spell. They decided to sell the wand anyway. They wound up being unable to sell the beads because the town doesn't have the money to buy that, but they still view it as "useless to us."
So my problem is that they want to go out and adventure and come back and craft up new items for themselves, but no one is using the stuff they get that's useful and no one is actually crafting useful items anyway. They all hoard money until they have enough to buy the next +1 enhancement for their gear or they HAVE to pay for healing or spellcasting. How do I show them that they need to have a diverse set of gear? One of my favorite features of Pathfinder is that even the most inflexible build can become somewhat adaptable with some magic gear. Oils of alignment, potions of invisibility, wands with useful spells, rings with niche but super beneficial powers, these things give the party the power to face anything because someone always has something useful on hand. I can't figure out how to get the party to understand that the reason their coming closer to dying more and more is because they haven't diversified their gear since they started the campaign.
Or maybe this is all in my head. The encounters look fairly balanced on paper from what I can tell. No one has complained that fights are unbalanced. Suggestions anyone?
That is a right tough situation to be in. Personally, if I was a player at the table, you wouldn't have that problem. I tend to play utility characters and no consumable gets sold unless I am sure we'd really never need it.
I am curious about your players. Have ANY of them been involved in higher level play? My gut is telling me that you have a table full of players that have a "I've read a few guides and know what I am doing" vibe going on.
My advice is: 1) Talk to players directly (token obvious advice) and 2) Let them get into a situation they can't win and if they lose characters, so be it. It seems like they need a bit running into reality HARD to make them appreciate consumable items.
Stop reminding them of thinga like torches do fire damage... if that is the whole party's only method of dealing fire damage, and they have to be remeinded about it... then let them suffer and die.
Eventually they will address the issues that keep killing them, or they will go play a different game, or they will ask you for advice... no matter what, you win.
Increase the number of skill challenges and odd-ball situations that highlight how grossly unprepared they are to deal with litetally anything that doesn't have hit points.
pretty much full agreement with VM, I'll keep the training wheels on for the first few levels, but by 10th level I expect people to be with it, especially with spellcasters who can ruin whole scenarios with a single well-chosen spell, so there is little to no mercy at a certain point. Adapt or die.
I'll second VM. You've helped them ID the problem - you reminded them about their torches that one time. From here on in, take the training wheels off. If they blunder into, say, a bunch of Babau demons and an Adult Black Dragon in a swamp and even though days of intel gathering TOLD them about the dragon no one bothered to have Resist Energy: Acid prepped at all and they ALSO walked in a straight line right to the water's edge even though they KNEW there was a black dragon nearby... too bad; they're all scoured by an 80' line of Acid that nearly kills one PC outright and drops another one to half HP on the Surprise round.
Just remember that the other side of that reckless coin, where they're all weapons and armor and melee attack supremacy, is that they get SUPER cautious. One of my campaigns is currently moving at a snail's pace in part b/c I kept warning my players the megadungeon was dangerous, then they had an encounter with a particularly brutal flaming undead and now they're scouting every 20', checking everywhere for traps, spending hours of real life time gathering info, and so on.
If they TPK again, have an honest conversation w/your players and see if they're genuinely having fun in the game and if they WANT to continue. If so, you'll figure a way to bring them back or have them make all new characters. If not, figure out what they WANT to play and try to find a happy medium between your game and theirs.
I'm pretty much with the tough love crowd here. Just for balances sake though, since you are running homebrew, you might encourage them to come up with creative "alternate" uses of spells and abilities. If they aren't even trying that, then there's not much hope. Sounds like they're approaching this like a hack and slash video game, and there's not much you can do if they won't break from that mindset.
Only other thing I can think of is to start sprikling in weapons that have the magical capabilities they're going to need. Still pretty video/meta gamey, but if that's what they want . . . . *shrug*
I loves me some Zelda, but everyone at the table needs to be having fun, and that includes you.
Y'know, it might've been better off for your players to have started off with 1st level and leveling on a "slow" XP path so that they could ease up into the higher leveled stuff. Since it may just be a wee bit too late to do any of dat [barring starting off with a new campaign], mebbe ya could slow down the leveling parts? ;P
PS. of course, it mebbe that they just wanna do things all "beer & pretzel-like", with none of the intricate stuff getting in their way of their own personal sorta fun. ;)
Y'know, it might've been better off for your players to have started off with 1st level and leveling on a "slow" XP path so that they could ease up into the higher leveled stuff. Since it may just be a wee bit too late to do any of dat [barring starting off with a new campaign], mebbe ya could slow down the leveling parts? ;P
PS. of course, it mebbe that they just wanna do things all "beer & pretzel-like", with none of the intricate stuff getting in their way of their own personal sorta fun. ;)
+1
This is also true. If it was missed when this campaign started, this is one of the many good reasons to have a "session 0" conversation.
One of my favorite features of Pathfinder is that even the most inflexible build can become somewhat adaptable with some magic gear.
I can understand that, but keep in mind that's your personal preference. If I had to guess: They find Pathfinder somewhat overwhelming, so they try to keep things simple where they can.
IMO this game is about fun (for players and GM). Everything else only serves the primary goal of having fun. So if the difficulty is too low or too high, it doesn't do its job, it should to be adjusted. You can try to adjust your players instead, but this is much less likely to turn out well.
So I'd go with lowering the CR of encounters, especially of the tough ones. They will still learn and adapt a bit, and next campaign can be one step more difficult, with players more confident and openminded about new ideas (like using new types of items).
Finally, I prefer to start at level 1 - it gives people more time to explore their characters' powers.
Thanks for all the advice guys, I think I'm going to have to agree with the tough love approach. Just to clear the air on player experience, this is not a new party. They have all played multiple campaigns, two starting at level 1, one starting at level 11, and this one. Absolutely none are new to this system though some have a year or two more experience than others. This has in fact been a recurring problem that has somehow become worse with this campaign. Two campaigns ago we played Mummy's Mask (though a very stupid TPK involving intentionally setting off a trap at the end of book 2 ended that) and they made good use of everything they could find, even if they weren't the most imaginative group I've ever had, which did come back to bite them once or twice.
I thought they would be more creative in this campaign because two players leaned into crafting magic and one crafts mundane weapons, but they've somehow become LESS interested in using unusual gear.
TL;DR the party isn't new to the game and has gone from appreciating wands and consumables to ignoring most forms of gear.
keep in mind that even a tough love TPK doesn't have to mean the end of the game; you've already had a couple so far, and apparently one done by a demi-god. That sets up a scenario quite nicely for a nemesis of the godling to maybe swoop in and snatch the group up and rez them for their own diabolical porpoises...yes, I'm talking half-fiend dolphins steal-rezzing your champions!
but seriously, there are all sorts of ways you can spin a TPK to continue the story. A couple of hard twists of their own fault that they have to solve to get our from under the thumb of, makes for a great chronicle
I'd directly ask them why they aren't <insert thing they should be doing>. For some reason people don't often "get" something until someone ask them why they're not doing it.
Are the players complaining? Or are they cool with the struggle?
If they're complaining, then yeah. Screw 'em. But if they're not, then it's a matter of how much it bothers you.
Ask them why they are so focused on the next +x item. If they dont have weakness then the encounters get borring or you need to bring in tougher monsters.
If they use their money on other stuff to get more options avaible, then they can have a more fun game using the right tool for the job.
Some players tend to forget what stuff they have in their backpack perhaps this is an issue?
I am really loathe to say someone is playing wrong or GMing wrong ...demigod....fae lord
Someone is doing it wrong. There is a common threads with all of the deaths, and it isn't the players. So I wonder, how many of the deaths are because you're using demigods against them.
And if you even reply "well they weren't suppose to fight it" then I'll point out that you're railroading your players.
I am really loathe to say someone is playing wrong or GMing wrong ...demigod....fae lord
Someone is doing it wrong. There is a common threads with all of the deaths, and it isn't the players. So I wonder, how many of the deaths are because you're using demigods against them.
And if you even reply "well they weren't suppose to fight it" then I'll point out that you're railroading your players.
Please re-read the OP's post a bit more carefully.
"During the two TPK events, the party had, coincidentally, met with a powerful entity. The first was a patron demigod and the second was a fae lord. In both cases, they were able to bargain for their resurrection/healing for some price. In the other deaths they bought scrolls or paid for casting of spells."
The demi-gods were the get out of death macguffins.
PS: You're saying ever having anything in an adventure that isn't suitable CR for the players to fight then and there is railroading?
With all this death and danger, I'd thought they might realize that they aren't diversifying their options. They spend all the money they get on four things: better weapons, better armor, scrolls (for the wizard to copy and that's it), and crafting (wizard crafts wondrous items and armor and weapons, occultist crafts healing potions). They aren't interested in anything that isn't those four things.
Haven't they even heard of the Big Six? They have no stat boosting items? No cloaks of protection?
If they refuse to learn, you should start a new campaign using inherent bonuses, so no need to spend money on boring but necessary pluses. That would also take care of the Cloak of Resistance issue.
The party reminds me of my 2e AD&D days. Instead of a metal wizard, we would have a death cleric who didn't have the Sphere of Healing, and we only found out when the player showed up. (This was before most of us had email. Those were the days.) To this day, I hate bloat, because it makes such things more likely to happen.
DeathlessOne wrote:
I am curious about your players. Have ANY of them been involved in higher level play? My gut is telling me that you have a table full of players that have a "I've read a few guides and know what I am doing" vibe going on.
This is probably going on. There's also mismatched expectations. A friend of mine plays RPGs, but not D&D or Pathfinder. Her players did not learn not to split the party over the course of *five years*.
I think from the description they're minmaxing - only investing in the big six, and hoarding wealth to craft (at a discount) wondrous items to break WBL. I had players like this. My players had a way of whining whenever they ran into any sort of challenge, but there were no TPKs either...
I am really loathe to say someone is playing wrong or GMing wrong ...demigod....fae lord
Someone is doing it wrong. There is a common threads with all of the deaths, and it isn't the players. So I wonder, how many of the deaths are because you're using demigods against them.
And if you even reply "well they weren't suppose to fight it" then I'll point out that you're railroading your players.
Please re-read the OP's post a bit more carefully.
"During the two TPK events, the party had, coincidentally, met with a powerful entity. The first was a patron demigod and the second was a fae lord. In both cases, they were able to bargain for their resurrection/healing for some price. In the other deaths they bought scrolls or paid for casting of spells."
The demi-gods were the get out of death macguffins.
PS: You're saying ever having anything in an adventure that isn't suitable CR for the players to fight then and there is railroading?
Haven't they even heard of the Big Six? They have no stat boosting items? No cloaks of protection?
If they refuse to learn, you should start a new campaign using inherent bonuses, so no need to spend money on boring but necessary pluses. That would also take care of the Cloak of Resistance issue.
Funny you should mention that - they have. It's one of the few wondrous items they actually save up for, Artofregicide was right about that aspect of minmaxing, though with how much they get beat up I'm not sure they really qualify as minmaxers.
I didn't think about the inherent bonuses idea, but now that you mention I think that's what I'm going to do if there's a TPK again. I do like the story of this campaign, and I know the party does too, but I've given them so many MacGuffins that I think starting fresh with a much lower level (again) and the inherent bonus system might be a good idea.
My biggest worry about starting low level is actually the party. They complain all the time about how low level play is no fun because everything can kill you and you have no options. I'm inclined to agree, but I also don't get myself killed at level 8 fighting a CR 8 monster.
They complain about a lack of options at low levels, yet play single-tracked one trick pony characters at levels where you should have tons of options. Lol.
You just have a confused party, man... sometimes there's just no salvaging stupidity.
By the sounds of it, the party you are dealing with wouldn't recognize options if they bit them on the @$$... had to remind five different level 10 players about their one source of fire damage. Lol.
At level 10, every single player should have multiple options to deal fire damage... every single one. Multiple fire damage options.
Sees 'lack of options at low level'. Looks at his characters and is about to object. Realizes that a lot of people don't play utility characters with a purposeful intent to have as many options available as possible to resolve issues. Frowns.
Advice? Stop, bloody min-maxing and play the characters like they are real freaking people. Grow outwards, not upwards on a brittle pillar of glass. Or don't. If you like that kind of game and have fun with it.
Level 1: prep for Swarms (splash weapons of some kind, even just flasks of oil and torches); expect DR 5/Bludgeoning, Cold-Iron, and Slashing; have a melee and ranged weapon on every PC, just in case
Level 3: Prep for Darkness and consider Consumables for extra movement types, niche buffs or scouting/info gathering; expect Flying creatures; plan for differing Resist Energy types
Level 6: Expect Invisible/Incorporeal foes if they haven't already been an issue; DR 5/Silver or Good; consider one permanent magic item that grants either movement bonuses or an extra movement type
… And so on. I think there was an unofficial list like this that I started noticing back when I played PFS a few years ago. I try to build my characters around these types of expectations and suggest them to my own players.
Some players, even seasoned vets, need reminders from time to time. Not as they're battling things they need to pull out torches for, but after a game wraps. Sometimes I review tough fights w/my players so they get a refresher on DRs they've had to overcome, monster subtypes they've faced such as Swarm or Incorporeal, and so on.
My own players used to visibly dread swarms. I ran a game where mites were the low level antagonists and in turn there were a lot of Vermin and Swarms. They all built PCs with ray spells, melee weapons, and one ranged martial; no one took any splash weapons. They were nearly slain on multiple occasions.
After reviewing the Swarm type they began to get it. Even though they were level 4 before it sunk in, just having a bandolier or 2 of Acid Flasks in the party made the fights at least manageable. As I said, even seasoned vets need reminders once in a while.
So let them fail... but then review the tape with them. Also, if someone has the accurate list of what to expect by level please post it.
This is one of the reasons I like stats to be rolled in order. The player makes the best character they can with the stats they have, they don't build the same character n times over.
WRT the magic items, I don't have branches of Ye Olde Magick Shoppe around so the available magic items are those defined in the module, plus GM fiat.
on a semi-related story, our most recent game had us encounter a Lich Nightmare Lord in his nightmarescape, which included a unhallow with a deeper darkness attached. When the lights went out, the panic on the other players was priceless.
My fellow players are pretty bad, in the same boat as silver diamond's it would seem. These are 15th level, gestalt, mythic tier 7 heroes and they were nearly defeated by a 3rd level spell.
Use a bounty board to target specific tactics such as preparing protection from X or dealing Y type of damage to Z creatures. With each bounty they learn about, narrate the horrible, horrible fate of the last party which did not consider x, y, or z.
Maybe the party later encounters similar enemies or make knowledge checks which remind them of similar tactics.
Expecting every player to be prepared for every type of enemy at every moment is quite frankly, unreasonable. You are more likely to lose players if you try to force the issue.
That said... if the group repeatedly encounters enemies with the same weaknesses and strengths and doesn’t prepare for them, then their fate is on them, not you... even the most focused and specialized group should be keen enough to pick up on a trend and prepare to counter it... on the other hand if you are throwing enemies with a varried array of strengths and weaknesses at them at every turn... then you may need to tone things back... if one encounter acid is your best friend, but the next it is useless and cold is your only hope, followed immediately by magic immunity... there is no hope that your players will prepare for everything. Let them specialize, and stick to a fairly predictable setup... allow them to learn that they need x and y at all times instead of expecting them to bring everything and the kitchen sink...
Expecting every player to be prepared for every type of enemy at every moment is quite frankly, unreasonable. You are more likely to lose players if you try to force the issue.
That said... if the group repeatedly encounters enemies with the same weaknesses and strengths and doesn’t prepare for them, then their fate is on them, not you... even the most focused and specialized group should be keen enough to pick up on a trend and prepare to counter it... on the other hand if you are throwing enemies with a varried array of strengths and weaknesses at them at every turn... then you may need to tone things back... if one encounter acid is your best friend, but the next it is useless and cold is your only hope, followed immediately by magic immunity... there is no hope that your players will prepare for everything. Let them specialize, and stick to a fairly predictable setup... allow them to learn that they need x and y at all times instead of expecting them to bring everything and the kitchen sink...
I agree, but when your party says that a creature with lightning immunity (a group of 12 dretches by the by) feels like a personal attack on the character because his best spell is elec based, my view is that the issue isn't that they aren't prepared for every type of enemy. It's that they aren't prepared for any type of enemy that isn't a point and shoot problem like a goblin or gnoll. So far they've mostly faced demons, daemons, and magical beasts, with a couple other creature types thrown in from time to time. Oh, also a couple of dragons, one random, two sought out. The random one they curb stomped. The other two almost killed them.
Those people (yes, THOSE people... those particular people at your table) sound like the worst kind of brats, honestly.
PC: HOW DARE YOU send an enemy at me that is immune to my best spell!!! The nerve.
GM: Well, you have more than one spell, right? You are level 10, after all. Do I have to hold your hand when you prepare your spells? Did you only choose lightning spells like a dum-dum?
PC: I have more spells, but that lightning spell is my best one and kills everything in one hit.
GM: Okay, you are going to have to use a less powerful spell this time... in fact, you might even have to cast TWO SPELLS... I know this all very new to you and all, but freaking deal with it. Or don't, it's your choice. Either way, qu!t-cha-b!tch!n...
I don't know a single level 10 character that can't dig in their gear and pull out AT LEAST ONE acid flask, alchemist fire, holy water, random half-used wand of burning hands or whatever... if they have to be REMINDED that torches are their ONLY source of fire damage between all FIVE level TEN characters... abandon all hope, there's no fixing that.
Imagine hearing them complain about something like a Vescavor Swarm, with it's resistances and $#!+... they sound like a bunch of babies. I say throw the book at them, force them to adapt or perish.
Haven't they even heard of the Big Six? They have no stat boosting items? No cloaks of protection?
If they refuse to learn, you should start a new campaign using inherent bonuses, so no need to spend money on boring but necessary pluses. That would also take care of the Cloak of Resistance issue.
Funny you should mention that - they have. It's one of the few wondrous items they actually save up for, Artofregicide was right about that aspect of minmaxing, though with how much they get beat up I'm not sure they really qualify as minmaxers.
Funny you should mention it, I find minmaxers are the least successful group in PF1e.
Sure, they max their strengths but their weaknesses are utterly brutal, often combined with a false sense of invincibility and entitlement to win.
And when they don't win, they whine and then try to optimize harder instead of play smarter.
Level 1: prep for Swarms (splash weapons of some kind, even just flasks of oil and torches); expect DR 5/Bludgeoning, Cold-Iron, and Slashing; have a melee and ranged weapon on every PC, just in case
Level 3: Prep for Darkness and consider Consumables for extra movement types, niche buffs or scouting/info gathering; expect Flying creatures; plan for differing Resist Energy types
Level 6: Expect Invisible/Incorporeal foes if they haven't already been an issue; DR 5/Silver or Good; consider one permanent magic item that grants either movement bonuses or an extra movement type
So let them fail... but then review the tape with them. Also, if someone has the accurate list of what to expect by level please post it.
Yeeeeaaaaah, my players have the tactical acumen of asphyxiated hamsters. If anyone has this list, I'd love to see it.
Well back on topic:
Give clues on what is ahead by perception rolls (which they properly has maxed).
Give extra info based on the characters intelligens or experience and profession.
I had a party (level 3) locked in by some bandits in a storeroom with multible ooze swarms..
They quickly figured out (perception), that the oozeswarms were stupid and just attacked the nearest opponent and were really slow, but could move on walls and ceilings.
They manage to lure 2 of the swarms into a sideroom and block the door.
The last 2 oozeswarms they entangled with a barrel of flour that was avaible in the storeroom.
I had mentioned the barrels of food incl. flour earlier in the fight and later gave the charcter with profession cooking in the group a roll to remind him of that the ooze swarm are like a bread dough. Too much flour and it hardens and glues.
Expecting every player to be prepared for every type of enemy at every moment is quite frankly, unreasonable. You are more likely to lose players if you try to force the issue.
That said... if the group repeatedly encounters enemies with the same weaknesses and strengths and doesn’t prepare for them, then their fate is on them, not you... even the most focused and specialized group should be keen enough to pick up on a trend and prepare to counter it... on the other hand if you are throwing enemies with a varried array of strengths and weaknesses at them at every turn... then you may need to tone things back... if one encounter acid is your best friend, but the next it is useless and cold is your only hope, followed immediately by magic immunity... there is no hope that your players will prepare for everything. Let them specialize, and stick to a fairly predictable setup... allow them to learn that they need x and y at all times instead of expecting them to bring everything and the kitchen sink...
I agree, but when your party says that a creature with lightning immunity (a group of 12 dretches by the by) feels like a personal attack on the character because his best spell is elec based, my view is that the issue isn't that they aren't prepared for every type of enemy. It's that they aren't prepared for any type of enemy that isn't a point and shoot problem like a goblin or gnoll. So far they've mostly faced demons, daemons, and magical beasts, with a couple other creature types thrown in from time to time. Oh, also a couple of dragons, one random, two sought out. The random one they curb stomped. The other two almost killed them.
Weirdly, now that I've really thought about it, this describes my players as well.
Spoiler:
I vent sometimes about my group and they ARE very accomplished at optimizing and using utilities OUT Of combat to assess threats, but they're so focused on the singular foe/adventure site they researched ahead of time that any surprise or random encounter can throw them off.
Current PCs in one of my campaigns were heading down into a partially submerged dungeon. They did their homework, had spells that granted Swim speeds and breathing underwater, just in case. However the Investigator brought his usual compliment of normal arrows, +1 shortbow and poisons for use with a Precision damage class ability.
The group gets down there and one of the encounters I'd planned was a Large Air Elemental since the party was APL 6 at the time. Said elemental was accompanied by a kobold Adept 4/Warrior 2 "cleric" that was working with the creature and the main villain of the dungeon.
The Investigator got frustrated and trounced by the elemental, then complained that I purposely chose something that was immune to Precision damage and poison. Now, here's the thing - I'd warned him for a couple levels that some monsters are immune to Precision damage, he should diversify his attack strategies; I gave him a unique Figurine of Wondrous Power in the form of a Medium sized dire rat to use as a mount and melee buddy that can remain active for a total of 24 hours per week; I knew his PC had maxed out Use Magic Device and made it Int based so I gave the party a wand of Acid Arrow.
Instead of using any of that or helping the druid and his AC find and take out the kobold, this player focused on dealing 1d6 +3 damage per round to a Large Air Elemental that slammed him with Flyby Attack 3 times before it dropped, and never once pulled the wand or summoned the dire rat. He even used Stealth successfully to scout ahead and identified the elemental before combat started.
Unlike VM, I don't think of my players as brats, though they act like it sometimes. No, I think its more a combination of attack percentages and analysis paralysis. As soon as something unexpected comes up that wasn't in their "discovery" phase before setting off on their adventure, the players do a quick rundown of their more familiar combat resources, figure whichever one is the most accurate if it's a direct attack, and just fall back on that.
Another thing to remember, at least for my OWN games and this might apply to some of you as well, I'm almost always the GM. I am used to reviewing every type of monster, looking through diverse defenses and such. My players on the other hand are busy adults that jump into a short game session, then spend the next week or two doing vastly different things with their time.
I agree, but when your party says that a creature with lightning immunity (a group of 12 dretches by the by) feels like a personal attack on the character because his best spell is elec based, my view is that the issue isn't that they aren't prepared for every type of enemy. It's that they aren't prepared for any type of enemy that isn't a point and shoot problem like a goblin or gnoll.
Ok, let's try to view it from the player's perspective:
1) Among the countless options of Pathfinder he finds a nice lightning spell that works well for several encounters. Phew, no more struggling with complicated spell choice, he feels empowered.
2) He meets 12 dretches and his powerful spell is completely pointless, all of a sudden. It's very tempting to suspect metagaming from GM's side here. I know one of my players is quick to suspect me to go for party's weaknesses, even when I choose foes randomly or by theme.
Maybe it would have been better to mix in a few cultists who are not immune to electricity. So his choice is not invalidated but questioned - after a combination of success and failure he might be more openminded about looking for alternatives.
To be fair, I don't think of "my" players as brats... they do not complain or accuse me of metagaming against them.
When something survives being assassinated because it had a Scarab of Protection, or the BBEG's head magically reattaches even though you rolled a 20 with a Vorpal bastard sword, they just adapt and push on. Reach deeper into the quiver and pull out a different magical arrow, they have all sorts of options.
Every single one of them has a backup plan, and an OH $#!+ strategy for when their backup plan fails.
I'm not confident that this is all on the players. It's homebrew, and encounter design is an art.
From in this thread:
12 dretches = 12 CR2 = 6 cr4 = 3 cr 6 ~ cr 9. Ok, well and good. But 12 dretches = 12 stinking clouds... Even if the PC's are optimized to make the DC 13 on anything but a 1, you can expect 1/2 the PC's to be nauseated as of rd 1... I don't know the party APL when they had this encounter, but...
A magma dragon with a minimum hoard of 125000 gp (wand of restoration = 26000 gp minimum, Greater strand of beads 98600 gp), even at a dragon's triple treasure, that's a CR18'ish hoard... Again, I don't know the party APL (but it is apparently currently 10).
It occurs to me that there might be a reason they are overfocusing on #'s optimization as opposed to diversity...
Not to mention, you say they do their scouting, research, and prep but they keep getting blindsided... They may not be dumb - they know the DM has infinite options to surprise them with, and they can't prepare for all of them...So they are loading up their core competencies and hoping for the best.
I'm not confident that this is all on the players. It's homebrew, and encounter design is an art.
From in this thread:
12 dretches = 12 CR2 = 6 cr4 = 3 cr 6 ~ cr 9. Ok, well and good. But 12 dretches = 12 stinking clouds... Even if the PC's are optimized to make the DC 13 on anything but a 1, you can expect 1/2 the PC's to be nauseated as of rd 1... I don't know the party APL when they had this encounter, but...
A magma dragon with a minimum hoard of 125000 gp (wand of restoration = 26000 gp minimum, Greater strand of beads 98600 gp), even at a dragon's triple treasure, that's a CR18'ish hoard... Again, I don't know the party APL (but it is apparently currently 10).
It occurs to me that there might be a reason they are overfocusing on #'s optimization as opposed to diversity...
Not to mention, you say they do their scouting, research, and prep but they keep getting blindsided... They may not be dumb - they know the DM has infinite options to surprise them with, and they can't prepare for all of them...So they are loading up their core competencies and hoping for the best.
Great points, so I'll try to clarify some of this. Also, in case you missed it, I have run other published campaigns with this group, such as Emerald Spire and Mummy's Mask, and the problems don't change any. Instead of complaining about my homebrew world, they just complain that Pathfinder adventure writers write unbalanced books.
Anyway, you're right about the dretches, but they ran away during the second round of combat (and actually managed to get enough distance to truly flee) so I don't know what would have happened if they stayed to fight. They were level 9 at the time.
Due to the way they've gone about exploring (and the fact that most of the game is in wilderness without enemies to loot) they were a bit behind in terms of loot. By a couple levels actually. I therefore made an ad hoc adjustment to the treasure for that one encounter to bring them in line with what they should have already had. Moreover, they knew about the magma dragon from day one and after a few in game months of recon they knew they would need to be around 9th level or so to be able to really challenge it.
I would agree with your statement that they are afraid of the infinite options that may attack them, but they've only been blindsided once or twice. They are perfectly aware of what creature types exist, and the encounters where they truly complain the most about difficulty are actually the encounters where they knew what they were getting into ahead of time (e.g. the oni, the magma dragon "it can fly and only the gunslinger and wizard have ranged", etc).
I would agree with your statement that they are afraid of the infinite options that may attack them, but they've only been blindsided once or twice. They are perfectly aware of what creature types exist, and the encounters where they truly complain the most about difficulty are actually the encounters where they knew what they were getting into ahead of time (e.g. the oni, the magma dragon "it can fly and only the gunslinger and wizard have ranged", etc).
So they know the monster will require ranged, but somehow its the deck being stacked against them and unfair anyway? I suppose that's as bad as knowing you're going to be facing a black dragon in a deep, marsh lake and then complaining when it takes full advantage of Cover while it uses it's breath weapon from the surface of the lake (that's one of my games).
Still, as a GM I have little sympathy for players who've built characters past level 3 in this game being unprepared for MAJOR types of threats. If you built your mega-awesome martial with ONLY melee options in a single weapon, then either that weapon doesn't drop in a treasure hoard or the monster is flying, swimming or burrowing, or it has Reach and you don't and so on, that's on the player, not the GM.
Still, even if its a wilderness exploration game, there's plenty of ways to keep them in loot. Caches of treasure hidden by fae in trees, sunken treasure in lakes, random planar disruptions, wandering travelers, humanoids that manufacture their own loot for the PCs to take, and so on. There might even be Trophies the PCs can take from monsters defeated in the wilds, resources they can gather with Profession: Herbalist or Craft: Alchemy from the wilds, or rare ores or crystals found in caves and caverns.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you are playing with this group because they are your friends. If that is the case then I recommend resisting the urge to wipe the board and start over, especially if they are enjoying their current characters. "Ripping the character sheet out of their hands" so to speak will leave a bad taste in their mouths. They are still people. Ignorant, but people.
I recommend putting them in a situation that they CANNOT solve with guns, swords, and magic. Do they have a BBEG? Have the only way to defeat him be currently held by another nearby kingdom. Have that kingdom be triple or more times their size and sworn to neutrality. Suddenly, they can't just march over with an army and say "surrender or die!"
The other thing I recommend (and some people may not think this is a good idea) is giving out bonus experience or another boon for creative thinking. Reward them when they do something outside the box. It's like teaching a child (and I'm not trying to be rude here). The hero point system is already designed for this, but you may have something else in mind that is more specific to your game or play style.
I'm not confident that this is all on the players. It's homebrew, and encounter design is an art.
From in this thread:
12 dretches = 12 CR2 = 6 cr4 = 3 cr 6 ~ cr 9. Ok, well and good. But 12 dretches = 12 stinking clouds... Even if the PC's are optimized to make the DC 13 on anything but a 1, you can expect 1/2 the PC's to be nauseated as of rd 1... I don't know the party APL when they had this encounter, but...
I agree that encounter design cannot be simply extrapolated from CR, but it cuts both ways. I find just as easily players whine when something is "too difficult for its CR" or "CR inappropriate (meaning CR+1 or higher" but then optimize far beyond what's appropriate for their CR.
Let's talk about those dretches though. Against a 9th level party (or honestly, even an 7th or 8th level party tbh a dretch isn't going to be able to more than scratch them. 12 stinking clouds is annoying, sure, but if your party beats their head mindlessly into an encounter at 9th level... not a lot you can do. Worst come to worst, they'll spend a very frustrated combat but with exceptionally minimal chance of longterm consequences beyond a few lost hp.
One easy knowledge check tells you everything you need to know. One well placed spell negates the encounter. Heck, just leave and come back after the stinking clouds disperse. The 7th level slayer archer in my SA group (who has the barest of system mastery) could down 2-3 dretches per turn by herself. Assuming no haste and critical hits.
Compare this to an encounter with say, 12 size small ghasts that ambush the party in favorable terrain - say, darkness and a network of tunnels sized for small creatures. Call it CR10 if you want to be pedantic.
That's a potential 36 opportunities per turn of paralysis, plus 12 opportunities of sickened. A CdG (or multiple) could happen on the same turn. The damage won't be significant enough to matter most likely, but ghoul fever is also possible.
As a player, my party (9th level) just ran into a *real* CR9 encounter, got ambushed and a character died. Did we throw our dice and shout "unfair!" at the GM? No. It's part of the game. Did the GM throw their dice and shout "unfair!" when we easily neutralized the previous 4 encounters to that with intelligent play and creative solutions? No. It's part of the game.
It feels like some folks feel entitled to win. And if you're guaranteed to win, where's the conflict or stakes?
I'd guess that's the issue, all in all. Different people expect different things from the game.
Here, quite clearly, silver diamond and his players are not looking for the same kind of experience.
Pointing out that for every major hurdle they encounter you actually had provided them with a tool - and they wilfully chose to discard it despite warnings - that may help, yes. But it only goes so far.
If they expect to roll over everything without any challenge, and don't care to learn after repeated failures, it's likely by choice. They don't want to adapt, because the "puzzle" (simplistic and well known as it may be) doesn't interest them.
Are they interested in the rest of the game ? The social/political/intrigue/whatever stuff ? Or the exploration, investigation, lore etc ?
(clearly having to figure out better ways to fight doesn't, so let's not mention tactics and combat tricks)
Are they just here to get their murderhobo on ? Or, switching that around, do they just not care about combat in the first place and just want it to get over with asap?
To salvage the situation I suspect you'd need to figure out what they want, what you want, and figure out a compromise.
Don't run a game that bores you, but don't expect their interests to align perfectly with yours either.
You'll probably have to make concessions - just don't be the only one.
Put them in competition with one or more other groups... a tournament sponsored by an eccentric noble, an ancient wizard's recently unearthed magical challenge dungeon, a race across untamed wilderness to a fabled treasure.... whatever. It just needs to be some sort of situation where similar groups are facing similar challenges.
Then you just have to show the other team(s) beating them via the sorts of things they COULD be doing, but aren't;
'Oh, the Oni? Yeah, I forgot about them... obviously we always carry a bunch of cheap vials of alchemist fire and acid so it was a complete non issue. I guess you guys ran out?'
'Oh, you guys had to head all the way back to town after the Wraiths? I guess we got lucky there, we had found a scroll of Restoration so we were able to patch up our fighter who took all the hits and just keep going.'
There's only 1 real reason that people pick up crafting feats. They're not getting the items they want when they want them. I'll ditto Automatic Bonus Progression.
Most adventures sprinkle splash weapons in the loot liberally. You can also drown Oni or just beat it into the negatives and clean up when the fight is done. As for the magma dragon, everyone can grab a sling for free. You won't see your dedicated melee folks do much of anything if a Dragon is just hanging back(which is kind of out of character for Dragons). That's just not how the game is built.
With 5 character changes, I'd be worried whether your players are attached at all to their characters. I'd be hungry looking for any advantage I could get if I liked my character.
The Wealth issue is another big one. You mentioned the party was down a few levels in WBL...so you gave them a communal condition removal wand and an item they couldn't utilize very well frankly. I would have also sold these items in a heartbeat. They don't help you survive in the moment and reactionary items being made to make up for multiple levels of wealth will probably get them killed more often than not by sheer dint of not having the raw bonuses to challenge level appropriate stuff.
Well as it happened we all talked it over after the latest TPK and we decided on a new campaign with clearly defined goals and the like. I want to thank everyone for the great advice though, I really appreciate it.
Scavion, I agree with you about the loot. I'd been giving them less loot than normal for their level since they had two crafters and I'd expected them to make their own gear, but when they wound up crafting nothing except adding enhancement bonuses I overcorrected and gave them too much loot. I think the wand was good but I agree the rest was a mistake. I will say that the crafting players built their characters to be crafters even before the campaign began; they didn't pick up those feats later. On the note of five character changes, I think I may have miscommunicated. One player left entirely. One player joined. One player swapped his character. That should be the sum total of character shifitng; you are right about not being attached to a certain extent. The player who swapped has a reputation in our group for having no attachment to his characters.
Nyerkh, you were right about different expectations. They really liked the exploration and history/mystery aspects, as well as interacting with NPCs. They DID like combat, at least that's what they told me. I believe them because they were actually working together and working smart in the final dungeon; even taking a full day to prepare themselves (though in the end some unlucky die rolls and one hasty mistake did them in). A few players mentioned afterwards that they felt the party dynamic (in game, not between the actual players) was a bit toxic, so perhaps it's for the best that we're changing stories. We talked about expectations for the new campaign. It's a lower level and slower xp progression with a small town guard. Everyone is on the same page and this time the characters actually all get along.
I'm curious. How does a group of PC's end up with a toxic dynamic when (a) the players do not and (b) it is something that negatively impacts the game?
It's just...100% within their power to alter and fix. So what happened?
I'm curious. How does a group of PC's end up with a toxic dynamic when (a) the players do not and (b) it is something that negatively impacts the game?
It's just...100% within their power to alter and fix. So what happened?
All I could imagine for this would be every player rigidly adhering to character concepts and/or alignments that were non-compatible with the other members of the group. Every one would have to basically approach their character like a method actor, and no character would have ever have found a reason to get along with the rest of the party, or at least not the entire party. And lastly, every player would have to be a good enough actor and real world friend to the others to not take anything personally. All theoretically possible, but that's a heck of a phenommenon.
I dunno. I'm pretty method with my portrayals of characters. But part of my method is determining my character's motivation, i.e. why they're hanging out with these other weirdos.
There's also the fact that this is a story we're telling, so I assume it would be one worth telling (meaning it would be enjoyable to hear and wouldn't just end right away because there's no reason for the characters to associate with each other, etc).
