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it's really powerful and relatively rare, cept with planning on the player's part.
I once had a druid in 3.5 that would just spam summon herds of aurochs and run down everything in their path, pissed off the evoker something fierce!
but, spears are cheap, should be common and have the brace ability. That'll help slow that roll.
Shouldn't be too hard to counter.
Brace, reach weapons, readied actions (eg trip the bull) are three ways. Being a little more creative; bulls are famous for charging at red rags so shouldn't be too difficult to goad, requiring checks from the rider and messing up their plans as they keep their mount under control.
Beyond that there's standard battlefield control tactics including making use of available cover, obstacles, difficult terrain or using burning oil, caltrops, alchemical itens and spells.
At level 5 most monsters should be able to take 13.5 damage and then strike back, worst case. Flight, balconies or enemies up trees, enemies mounted on large+ creatures (like horses), narrow gaps and more negate it. Battlefield control from caltrops or spells or just choosing a battlefield with difficult terrain or whatever may slow the bull down.
And sometimes it's an I win button. That happens.
In a few levels, you'll have large flying, incorporeal enemies with defences that mean the bull won't want to be anywhere near that square, so I suspect this is a temporary issue.
Anyway, it makes a change from the usual allosaurus or dire tiger. Your PC should be congratulated for coming up with something original. Farm animals FTW!
As Tom Lehrer said: there is nothing so noble in this world as the sight of a lone man faced with a ton of angry pot roast.
Automatic damage is nice, but intelligent foes really shouldn't be arranging themselves in trample-able formations. I mean. It's a bull. It acts to run you down. Even if you've never seen one before, it's not particularly hard to see that much. It's what they're built for.
By the looks of it, the war bull is a strong companion choice at early levels and falls behind later on. It won't remain this potent for ever, or even for very long.
I'd take those AoO, though. Why not? Even if most of them miss, that's still hp lost and resources spent.
There's also the problem of traveling with a bull. Narrow corridors, uneven cavern floors, heavy underbrush and anywhere urban. I think that was part of the idea behind animal companions, originally; they're amazing when they're in their element, but they're not always in their element.
Personally, I'd be less worried about the druid with the bull dealing AoE damage and more concerned about the one with the tiger dishing out high single- target damage.
Trample is odd, though. You'd think the Reflex save would be to avoid the damage entirely. If the choice was either an attack at -4 or a Ref to get pushed to a non-adjacent square and taken none, I'd like that better. Less all-or-nothing and opens it up to some other uses.
An AC of 21, shouldn't be an issue for most CR 5 creatures. At a quick glance, most enemies at that level have a to-hit of +8 to +11. Yeah, the -4 makes it tough, but it could be much worse. The player could easily put Barkskin on the beast for another +2 (+3 at level 6), or Cat's Grace, for a shorter buff. Yeah, it's frustrating, but as other people have said, this companion peaks early and will taper off from here. Let them have their fun. Soon enemies will be flying, or throw some obstacles the beast will have to navigate.
Trample is odd, though. You'd think the Reflex save would be to avoid the damage entirely. If the choice was either an attack at -4 or a Ref to get pushed to a non-adjacent square and taken none, I'd like that better. Less all-or-nothing and opens it up to some other uses.
Most Reflex saves work the same: save for half. Only some certain monster-specific abilities will override that.
As an aside, the War Bull (or Bull of Zagresh) isn't PFS-legal. That's a good clue it's either overpowered or should bear consideration before allowing. Yeah, it's strong for its level, but as others have mentioned, there's worse options out there.
let's assume a level 5 fighter who uses masterwork longspear is facing it.
from his total 6 feats (if not human) it's common that these feats would be picked to help his spear fighting:
power attack, weapon focus,weapon specialization, and combat reflexes
other 2 feats are open.
if he ready to brace against the attack (which may or may not be ruled as a charge so maybe double damage maybe not, depend on gm) he get's 3 attacks on the bull before the bull get him (one for the ready, one for reach aoo movement out of threatened area and one for trample provoking an aoo -last one might be with armor spikes as it might be ruled to be too close for reach weapon).
at level 5 with say 18 str his attack bonus is with :
+5 (bab) +4 (str) +1 (weapon focus) +1 (masterwork) +1 (weapon training) = +12 to hit for the1st and 2nd attack, +5 for 3rd (assuming armor spikes so no feat\masterwork\training added and -4 from trample).
damage is 1d8+6(str 2 handed) +2 (weapon spec) +1 (weapon training)
so +12 (1d8+9)/+12 (1d8+9)/+5 (1d6+4) (after -4 for trample)
if power attack is used the first two attacks are at -2 but with +6(+4 for spikes) to damage : +10 (1d8+15)/+10 (1d8+15)/ +3 (1d6+8) (after -4 for trample).
and this assume the brace is not double damage.
-which i would totally allow, as brace is unloved in pathfinder. too many see some1 ready a brace (which is not the same as ready to hit some1 who get close) and decide 'no i won't charge'. it never goes off this way.
i basically changed brace to work for any readied attack with a brace weapon vs enemy who uses a full round action that included movement or partial charges.
the bull can move 40' in a round, trampling any and all foes in that space
Actually, it's 80 ft. Pathfinder completely f&$!ed up the trample rules, addind a reference to overrun that makes absolutely no sense, and removing the vital part of how far the creature can move. I stringly suggest using the 3.5 version, which said "As a full-round action, a creature with this special attack can move up to twice its speed and literally run over any opponent at least one size category smaller than itself."
Help me understand how this ability isn't game ending.
First, how bad is it really? Second, the ability will quickly drop in usefullness. A Bull of Zagresh peaks in efficiency very early, thanks to the 4th level advancement, but it won't be long before the trample damage is peanuts compared to the total HP of enemies.
Unless it negatively effects the other players, let the player with the bull companion have some fun while it lasts, it won't be long.
bulls are famous for charging at red rags so shouldn't be too difficult to goad, requiring checks from the rider and messing up their plans as they keep their mount under control.
I would heavily protest against that if a GM did that, even if it wasn't my character. An animal companion is not a wild animal, it's trained. Mindlessly chasing anything that moves (the color is irrelevant) would be literally the first thing to overcome in training to get it combat ready.
Farm animals FTW!
"These enormous bovines are 15 feet tall, measure nearly 30 feet from horns to tail, and weigh approximately 16 tons. Bred for war and violence by the Murdered Child orc tribe, they are used in ravine fights—bloodsports in blocked-off gorges or gullies that pit the might and ferocity of orcs against various wild beasts." If that's a farm animal for you, you must live on some hardcore badass farm!
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As an aside, the War Bull (or Bull of Zagresh) isn't PFS-legal. That's a good clue it's either overpowered or should bear consideration before allowing. Yeah, it's strong for its level, but as others have mentioned, there's worse options out there.
Pfs legal isnt an indicator of power. There's a lot of things that aren't allowed because of over arching pfs setting. Like how some races were legal for certain pfs seasons and not others.
bulls are famous for charging at red rags so shouldn't be too difficult to goad, requiring checks from the rider and messing up their plans as they keep their mount under control.I would heavily protest against that if a GM did that, even if it wasn't my character. An animal companion is not a wild animal, it's trained. Mindlessly chasing anything that moves (the color is irrelevant) would be literally the first thing to overcome in training to get it combat ready
True and fair call based on what I wrote, but not quite my full thought process. The idea was based on real world bull fights but I should have been clearer and suggested using things like Dazzling display or antagonise and aiming it at the bull rather than the rider. I haven't checked but i'm guessing the saves would be lower. The effort to control the combat trained bull would be lower than pushing the animal but would still occupy the rider and mount and prevent the trample from occurring.
To summarise, a valid tactic for neutralising a mounted opponent is to target the rider's control of the mount. The red rag is fluff.
bulls are famous for charging at red rags so shouldn't be too difficult to goad, requiring checks from the rider and messing up their plans as they keep their mount under control.I would heavily protest against that if a GM did that, even if it wasn't my character. An animal companion is not a wild animal, it's trained. Mindlessly chasing anything that moves (the color is irrelevant) would be literally the first thing to overcome in training to get it combat readyTrue and fair call based on what I wrote, but not quite my full thought process. The idea was based on real world bull fights but I should have been clearer and suggested using things like Dazzling display or antagonise and aiming it at the bull rather than the rider. I haven't checked but i'm guessing the saves would be lower. The effort to control the combat trained bull would be lower than pushing the animal but would still occupy the rider and mount and prevent the trample from occurring.
To summarise, a valid tactic for neutralising a mounted opponent is to target the rider's control of the mount. The red rag is fluff.
Okay, forget my idea Antagonize doesn't work on creatures with and INT score less than 3 and controlling the animal companion is a free action. Unless you can think of a way of making the rider have to push the bull (and consume a move action) disrupting control will be difficult.
If Daisy the Cow here is 15' tall and 30' long, it isn't going into dungeons very much and won't be welcome in an urban setting. It's even a real PITA getting through woodland. And it must eat a phenomenal amount - it's twice the size of an elephant - and leaves piles of Difficult Ground behind it.
I think this problem is solved already.
As with many animal companions, you have Daisy Junior which is limited to Large size. Not 15' tall etc. in other words.
Haven't the gnolls heard this bull stampeding around in other areas, bellowoing, snorting and wrecking havoc? Wouldn't they plan accordingly? Longspears and piles of rubble. That's all they'd need. Now, the bull isn't useless, but it's ability comes at a higher cost and takes a little more thought to pull off. Yeah?
in some cases like this, I'll have units that are there only to soak up the "troublesome" character. I'll normally do this by just having a number of monsters they need to kill in the encounter and once the rest of the group has accomplished that, the encounter can end.
So for example, have a dozen extra bugbears and dire weasels that are there to essentially only be trampled on, once the rest of the group has killed 3 bugbears and 1 weasel, then the bull can trample to death whatever remains and the encounter is ended. This way everyone gets to have their fun.
and no, I don't give any extra XP for the fodder characters.
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That's one of the hardest hurdles for us to overcome, I think; thinking about the game as a real, living, breathing world. Setting aside video game logic.
I can't tell you how many new players (or just less savvy ones...really, anyone outside my core group who's grown up with me as I've learned the GM trade) will look at a difficult encounter and refuse to back down because they don't realize retreat is even an option.
Or they don't get that they can do more than move, attack or cast a spell.
That's why I've taken the Angry GM's advice on adjudication actions to heart. When my players say "I use Perception", I don't just let them roll a d20 and add a number. I ask them "what are you trying to do, and how are you going about accomplishing it?" Sometimes, I'll catch cheap players trying to shoehorn their Biggest Plus into situations it doesn't fit (no, you can't make an attack roll in place of Intimidate. You can try the "see how good at I am with this knife? Don't even try it" maneuver. I'll give you a +4 to your Intimidate if you can hit that AC18), but even more importantly, it frees up players who are too linear in their thinking. The moment you go from "I use Diplomacy" to "I try to get him to reveal what he knows by appealing to his sense of decency; he seems like a good guy", you win.
I feel like this situation is in a similar vein. I mean, what's the DC to hear a bull stomping people to death down the hall? 0 at most, I'd wager. And your bull-player won't even have to feel singled out or targeted by you. It's just a logical reaction. It's a compliment, really. Their reputation has proceeded them, and the gnolls hurriedly acquired some pole arms to deal with the thundering menace that's broken so many of their kin.
I have a quick question though, regarding folks suggestions of enemies using spears. Several of the humanoids in this module either use spears or would easily have access to them, however looking at the Brace special ability it says it specifically works with the Charge maneuver.
I mean, realistically I get that a big bull trampling over its foes is about the same as one lowering it's head and charge attacking with it's horns, but my players are pretty much sticklers for RAW. You think I can still get away with foes readying an action with Brace to use their spears this way on a Trample, even though that's not what the Brace ability says?
I see no logical reason why not, both maneuvers need a head of steam to work, plus since Trample is an advanced form of overrun which is typically used on a charge, it also "fits"
You don't necessarily need the brace option though, just ready an action with the spear's reach and then stab it instead of getting out of the way with your AoO. Two attacks from everybody it's trying to trample is enough to dissuade the overuse of the ability.
By RAW, you are correct and Brace wouldn't work but they still get the readied attack and the AoO. If the opponent has a reach weapon and combat reflexes that could be two(or more) AoO.
I also agree you shouldn't metagame though. But it is fair game for intelligent survivors to tell their story to allies and for subsequent encounters to be ready to counter demonstrated tactics.
Agreed. Giving intelligent creatures spears is NOT metagaming. "Hey guys, have you heard about the murder cow that keeps coming in here and walking on people until they're dead? Maybe we should get some long sticks and make them pointy?" Next you'll tell me that it's metagaming for a dragon to move so everyone fits in the area of its breath weapon, or for a Medusa to know that she should look at people she doesn't like.
As for Brace, yeah I wasn't looking at longspears for that quality; they're cheap, Simple and have Reach. That's enough.
If one of my players asked if using Brace worked on a trampling foe, I'd be all for it. But introducing that sort of thing in response to a player on top of the little changes in tactics above might make them feel singled out.
you don't need to know about death cow to know that being able to stick your foe before they stick you just makes good sense. I know it can be burdensome some times for GMs to keep track of "one more thing", but this is why I like to give my groups of baddies all sorts of different weapons; keeps them from being cookie-cutter one, but two, also gives a group a wider array of tactics or tricks to use, plus it makes it more believable, that there isn't some sort of play-doh weapon stamp out there just form making a bunch of battle axes and nothing else.
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Pit. Trap.
People used to lead these dumb beasts to cliffs and stampede hundreds over the edge at a time.
It's a stupid cow that runs into things, have someone with Evasion stand in front of a hole in the floor that has been covered with a blanket...
Adding specific class levels feels a lot more cheap than having the existing foes use resources at their disposal to adapt. The gnolls might realize they are under attack by repeated trespassers and throw some ramshackle fortifications up and arm themselves more effectively. I doubt they have the time to gain three levels or hire a ghost wizard.
Pfs legal isnt an indicator of power. There's a lot of things that aren't allowed because of over arching pfs setting. Like how some races were legal for certain pfs seasons and not others.
4 main reasons things get banned.
1) It doesn't fit the flavor of the campaign. This mostly ends up being alignment restrictions, of no evil.
2) The option is problematic with the a shared world, like item crafting.
3) The option is too open to interpretation and table variation.
4) The option is too good.
If something is banned and not covered by the first 3, it's usually the 4th.
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Pfs legal isnt an indicator of power. There's a lot of things that aren't allowed because of over arching pfs setting. Like how some races were legal for certain pfs seasons and not others.4 main reasons things get banned.
1) It doesn't fit the flavor of the campaign. This mostly ends up being alignment restrictions, of no evil.
2) The option is problematic with the a shared world, like item crafting.
3) The option is too open to interpretation and table variation.
4) The option is too good.If something is banned and not covered by the first 3, it's usually the 4th.
So aasimars and tieflings were or weren't OP then? And kitsune, wayangs, and nagaji?
Any slightly-organized force can brace against the charge like a Schiltron formation as long as they have any reach weapons; casters can summon Grease and Pits or Blind; if the Animal Companion is commanded verbally (which it probably is) then simple Thunderstones can deafen it; hooked nets can be a problem for animals too because they can't get out without help from a PC, or rolling insanely high on an Escape Artist DC20 check. If the BBEG knows they have a pain-in-the-keister bull running around invalidating his minions in his perfectly crafted encounters, then Summon Matador can work too :P. I'm being lightly facetious and mostly serious, because any BBEG worth his salt who knows about the bull would hire/send specialists like Rangers, Hunters, and Barbarians to deal with it-- Highly-informed BBEG's might even attack the War Bull's exceptionally low Intel and Charisma scores with a Reach, Empowered, or Maximized Touch of Idiocy and try to knock it out of a fight.
At level 5+ there is a lot of respite for the frustrated DM against Trample shenanigans, because there's a laundry list out the door in the bestiary of enemies that fly, and there are some really good CR5 flyers out there too (Vescavor Swarms are a particular favorite CR5 of mine), after that there's Witches with Flight Hex, alchemists/shaman/wizards/sorc with Fly, enemies on magic carpets and flying brooms or wearing Wings of Flying/Winged Boots, Clerics with Feather, Travel, Void, or Azata Domain, Druids can Wild Shape into anything that flies and use Natural Spell, and any small/medium-sized villains can ride their medium/large-sized Animal Companions.
Npc rogues as an ambush?
Far more likely than a troop of spear wielding foes.
I think we have vastly different ideas about a typical fantasy world.
The way I usually run things, adventurers are rare. It's not a very good job and requires a specific blend of less-than-typical traits. The significant majority of entities with class levels are in NPC classes. Commoners and warriors, with a few experts thrown in and the occasional adept.
On the other hand, the spear is the second oldest and singularly most common weapon made by intelligent life. So. Encountering some guys who have them is probably pretty normal. More typical than a band of orcs armed solely with falchions or gnolls with battleaxes or goblins with morningstars.
These PCs are back in the dungeon and the war bull couldn't make it down the narrow spiral staircase, so it's up on level 1 while the PCs are down on level 2 right now. On said level are more of the gnolls they've previously faced however. Here's what I have planned:
1. spears, lots of spears
2. nets (not the hooked kind)
3. Gnoll "shamans" (Adept 3/Warrior 2) with Burning Hands spells and Reach weapons
There are other monsters such as Swarms that should be able to survive first contact w/the bull. I'm with Quixy there upthread; not a lot of PC classed villains in my games, but I mix in a lot of NPC classed foes. I don't want to make it seem like the dungeon is built against one particular PC so there's also plenty of places for the bull to shine, but the gnolls are going to be ready for it's return.
I bet you $5 that one of those Gnolls has a pouch full of Dust of Sneezing and Choking with that Bull's name on it :D :D
Dust of Sneezing and ChokingAura moderate conjuration; CL 7th
Slot none; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 3d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. Those who succeed on this saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
CREATION
Magic Items dust of appearance, dust of tracelessness
is that an artifact or a joke item?
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is that an artifact or a joke item?
I used this in a campaign once, and I nerfed it to 1d6 constitution dmg and 1d4 rounds stunned. This item is frankly ridiculous.
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I have a PC who in turn has a War Bull Animal Companion; both are level 5. The bull wears masterwork leather barding. This means that it has a Trample attack, as a Full Round action that automatically delivers 1d6 +10 damage against any Medium or smaller creature.
So he's got a really big side of beef that just squishifies everyone. Let's consider the squishifying part first. Just gonna put on my hat of explicating things like an Outsider:
1. Attacking the full-round action.
A War Bull as a 5th level AC has a Will save of +1 (unless the 4th level stat boost was put into Wisdom, which I doubt.) Slow targets Will, and inflicts stagger condition and other penalties.
Yes, the party can defeat this with Haste; but that means using Haste specifically to defeat Slow, not to haste the party (or to not prepare Haste and instead bring another Fireball on line or somesuch.)
2. ACs can be one-hit "killed" humanely.
Intelligence-damage poison can take them right out of commission. There's the Fort save +7 to worry about, but there are plenty of reasons why bandits and "savages" might not want to kill their targets.
Really, many forms of SoS that attack Will can function similarly, taking the beast right out of the encounter. Don't overdo it, of course. But do keep your Pokemon trainer honest.
3. Attacking mobility.
Fatigue, exhaustion, and battlefield control can make those killer approaches harder to make.
4. Defensive positioning.
Not always feasible, but you can't trample what you can't reach.
Even if intelligent, if creatures have no practical way of knowing about this trample technic then it's meta.
Intelligent creatures would also know tactics of every PC and should then adjust accordingly... Unless you're talking about a bbg then this is not really what npcs would do.You are assuming there are survivors to tell about it (and you're assuming the other npcs would believe this tall tale of a death cow), but I'm sure the murder cow would chase any npcs who fled down and trample them.
Also, what? Are you saying that, if you saw a 1,000lb animal with hooves and horns that was obviously aggressive, you wouldn't think "I better stay out of that things way"? The term "trample" is just a keyword for a very basic result of physics + animal behavior.
Someone in armor with a big sword? Probably want to keep them at a distance and shoot them with arrows.
Someone in light armor with a bow? Probably want to get up in their face.
These aren't "tactics". They're basic strategies anyone who's made a living out of fighting and murder would know at a glance, and even untrained non-combatants should be able to figure out pretty easily.
Now, if my foes somehow knew I could cast invisibility and spider climb, or were ready to counter my party's specific sequence of readied actions we worked out a moment before we kicked in the door, sure. Then there would be a problem.
Look at a bull/buffalo/rhinoceros and tell me they're not made for trampling. You might as well tell me that knowing a shark wants to bite me is metagaming.
And as a side note, no. I am not assuming any of the things you assumed I'm assuming. I drew my conclusions from pretty reasonable trains of thought as I posted above (i.e. combat is loud and leaves plenty of evidence behind). But for the record, I WOULD expect a foes comrades-in-arms to believe a "tall tale" like that.
"You say it was a what? A big cow? Don't make me laugh, pal."
"What? We're hyena people. And there's zombies and magic and stuff. Why do you feel like a bull, bred for war, is suddenly so far-fetched?"
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Even if intelligent, if creatures have no practical way of knowing about this trample technic then it's meta.
Intelligent creatures would also know tactics of every PC and should then adjust accordingly... Unless you're talking about a bbg then this is not really what npcs would do.You are assuming there are survivors to tell about it (and you're assuming the other npcs would believe this tall tale of a death cow), but I'm sure the murder cow would chase any npcs who fled down and trample them.
Also, what? Are you saying that, if you saw a 1,000lb animal with hooves and horns that was obviously aggressive, you wouldn't think "I better stay out of that things way"? The term "trample" is just a keyword for a very basic result of physics + animal behavior.
Someone in armor with a big sword? Probably want to keep them at a distance and shoot them with arrows.
Someone in light armor with a bow? Probably want to get up in their face.These aren't "tactics". They're basic strategies anyone who's made a living out of fighting and murder would know at a glance, and even untrained non-combatants should be able to figure out pretty easily.
Now, if my foes somehow knew I could cast invisibility and spider climb, or were ready to counter my party's specific sequence of readied actions we worked out a moment before we kicked in the door, sure. Then there would be a problem.
Look at a bull/buffalo/rhinoceros and tell me they're not made for trampling. You might as well tell me that knowing a shark wants to bite me is metagaming.
And as a side note, no. I am not assuming any of the things you assumed I'm assuming. I drew my conclusions from pretty reasonable trains of thought as I posted above (i.e. combat is loud and leaves plenty of evidence behind). But for the record, I WOULD expect a foes comrades-in-arms to believe a "tall tale" like that.
"You say it was a what? A big cow? Don't make me laugh, pal."
"What? We're hyena people. And there's zombies and magic and...
Yeah, I think everyone from commoner to king knows that war bulls are only good at two things, trampling a$$ and chewing gum, and there's a fairly decent chance that he's out of gum.
DM: "You see a muscular, 15ft-tall, 30,000lb war bull with battle scars across his shoulders, back, and rib-cage area, and his hooves are stained blood-red." PC1, roll an Int check, DC 5.
PC1: *rolls a nat 1*
DM: "You're quite positive that the blood-red stains on this bull's hooves are from an intense day of grape-smashing for making wine, and definitely ISN'T the blood of his enemies after an intense day of trampling a$$es"
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now I kind of want to make a retired minotaur who has retired to a sunny vineyard to follow his passion of wine-making...
now I kind of want to make a retired minotaur who has retired to a sunny vineyard to follow his passion of wine-making...
With at least 1 level of Barbarian, and his starting gear MUST include a collapsible bathtub for cleaning his hooves at the end of the day :D
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And this minotaur likes to run recreationally to stay in shape, but everyone thinks he's trying to charge them, so they keep bracing for charge, and it's awkward.