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There must be a reason that the creature getting the dying condition moves their initiative to after that of the turn of the effect which caused the dying condition- whether it be a trap or an enemy's weapon.
But I can't for the life of me figure out why it's necessary to take that extra step. I assume it has something to do with the dying creature's turn and rolling to stabilize, to allow for their allies to heal or help? If that's the case, I thought combat generally took place at the same instant every round...
It's a hassle- yes, I know, a small one- for those of us who use pen and paper only to keep track of initiative and if you're like me, very meticulous and careful and orderly on paper. Once again- a small hassle, but one nonetheless that is time consuming for my games as I then have to start a new set of lines and round ticks since I use straight line paper to keep track.
I'm considering houseruling it out, but wanted to make sure it wouldn't cause issues with the balance of the game.
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Basically, it's because you could be taken down by a crit (therefore starting at Dying 2) and if your turn happens to be next, you could crit fail your check, drop to Dying 4 and die 'instantly' without anyone having a chance to save you, which would be a bit of a bummer...
The rule makes certain your companions should have an opportunity to save your life.
It gives your allies more time to heal you before you start making death saves.
Imagine that a dragon is going on initiative 23, and you're on initiative 22 with 1hp. The dragon critically hits, taking you straight to Dying 2.
With the rules as written, you allies have a whole round to heal you!
With your houserule, you could die if you roll poorly on your recovery check - and no-one has any chance to intervene. If you're out of hero points, and/or are already wounded, the odds get even worse.
There are few options to make tracking initiative easier in person. One is to use magnetic strips on a whiteboard, like the official initiative tracker. Or, if you use a GM screen, you can write everyone's name on a separate piece of card that you fold in half and drop over the top of the screen. You can physically adjust the order of the bits of card to reflect changes in initiative.
Both methods also make it super easy for the players to see who's coming up next, which I find helps to speed up combat.
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I thought combat generally took place at the same instant every round...
Ish
The narrative is that everything is happening more or less at once, but the rules work on every turn completing before the next one begins.
As the other have said the order change is to ensure that your allies have a chance to help you before you make the death check
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I thought combat generally took place at the same instant every round...
I think that the default rule is more realistic, as it makes sure that 1 round passes before the you possibly die. Otherwise, it is a crapshoot: it can be an instant later, or 1 round later depending on where you happen to be in initiative.
The fact that there are turns is already an artificial construct - this prevents the construct from having perverse results.
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There must be a reason that the creature getting the dying condition moves their initiative to after that of the turn of the effect which caused the dying condition- whether it be a trap or an enemy's weapon.
Moved to right BEFORE the next turn of the cause of the Dying condition. Not after.
But I can't for the life of me figure out why it's necessary to take that extra step. I assume it has something to do with the dying creature's turn and rolling to stabilize, to allow for their allies to heal or help?
Yes, exactly that.
If that's the case, I thought combat generally took place at the same instant every round...
That's just a convenient story we tell, in practice turns are sequential.
Also, even with that pleasant fiction, moving the turn makes sense. That way, after being dropped, it takes ~6s before the first Recovery check regardless of why dropped who, instead of sometimes it being much faster and sometimes it being much slower.
It's a hassle- yes, I know, a small one- for those of us who use pen and paper only to keep track of initiative and if you're like me, very meticulous and careful and orderly on paper. Once again- a small hassle, but one nonetheless that is time consuming for my games as I then have to start a new set of lines and round ticks since I use straight line paper to keep track.
I'm considering houseruling it out, but wanted to make sure it wouldn't cause issues with the balance of the game.
When I run at the table (nowadays..) I prefer to use stack of small cards with names on them for initiative, instead of writing down a list. It's easier to reorder the stack if someone ends up Dying or Delaying. And use of Delay is pretty common when players start to do more advanced teamwork, like waiting until after the bard opens their mouth to Strike, or people waiting until after the sorcerer uses Demoralize so that as many people as possible can take advantage before the enemy reduces their Frightened condition again at the end of turn.
So basically: your method is not ideal for when players start doing the fun, cooperative, teamwork stuff (and also not ideal for when they're bleeding out). It may be better to adapt the method than to change the rules.
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Beyond being knocked to 0 HP, you should see players using the Delay action fairly frequently, so initiative changes are actually somewhat common in PF2e.
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Great points everyone. Looks like I will keep that rule in.
There is a bit of a problem with the rule, and that is what happens when you have a large encounter with many players and multiple monsters. Since it takes so long to reach your next turn (as the downed PC), it is not unlikely that you will be healed and then dropped again before you get to act, force-delaying you even further. You could feasibly go for 3 or so rounds without ever having a turn. That's especially frustrating if you've got fast healing running but it never does anything because your turn keeps getting 'skipped' by your initiative moving back.
For this reason, I think it's fine to give players the choice of where they want to be in initiative after being dropped. Essentially, not forcefully moving them at all, but letting them Delay without having to make recovery checks or triggering any other ongoing effects, though at most until right before the foe that dropped them.
It also messes with PCs who like to frighten enemies. Doing so just before the solo boss acts is bad.
But overall the rule probably helps PCs more than hurts.
Imo, get a magnetic initiative tracker or start using cards/tents.
Life is so much faster when you have pre written initiative markers and can just move them in order.
Heck a mini magnetic whiteboard with little magnetic labels from your general office supply store will do the trick. Saving you a minute or so every combat and speeding things up for players who delay or get downed.
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How were you handling characters delaying with your pen and paper system? I ask because a static turn tracker would get disrupted at my table far more often from players delaying than from gaining the dying condition. Also, some time creatures join a combat in process. It seems like considering different ways to track initiative is a good idea. If you are mostly limited to paper as your material resource, you could consider paper clips or clothes pins as a very low budget way to keep things more dynamic.
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There is a bit of a problem with the rule, and that is what happens when you have a large encounter with many players and multiple monsters. Since it takes so long to reach your next turn (as the downed PC), it is not unlikely that you will be healed and then dropped again before you get to act, force-delaying you even further. You could feasibly go for 3 or so rounds without ever having a turn. That's especially frustrating if you've got fast healing running but it never does anything because your turn keeps getting 'skipped' by your initiative moving back.
For this reason, I think it's fine to give players the choice of where they want to be in initiative after being dropped. Essentially, not forcefully moving them at all, but letting them Delay without having to make recovery checks or triggering any other ongoing effects, though at most until right before the foe that dropped them.
Well, that would be a problem, but I think it's a very rare problem. While the current rule helps you out with a much more common problem.
Why your scenario is rare:
- The typical party is 3-6 players, with 4-5 being more common. Going far beyond that in either direction is going to warp lots of rules. We can't balance the normal 4-5 player game for problems that mostly happen for 7+ player parties.
- Each time you go down, Wounded goes up by 1. It's really hard to get healed and knocked down three times in a row without ending up at Dying 4 and exit.
- Basically, if you keep getting healed up and knocked down rightaway, then something weird is going on. Is there environmental damage happening? Okay, then if you didn't get healed up, you would have gone down the Dying track further, due to taking damage while already knocked out. Also not good. Is it because enemies are targeting you because you just got healed up? Then maybe the rest of the party needs to do their teamwork differently, first clear away enemies from your body a bit before healing you. Or use the Delay action to heal you just before your turn.
The other, I think more common scenario:
- A monster crits you to 0 HP (Dying 2), and also inflicts some persistent damage effect. Quite a few monsters do persistent damage effects, some of them all the time, some only on a crit. Or maybe you already had some persistent damage from some other effect, which got you low on HP, and then a crit took you to 0. All in all, the chance of this happening is quite real.
- On your next turn, you're at Dying 2, need to make a recovery check which has 10% chance of just killing you, %45 chance of making you Dying 3, 45% chance of improving. Then at the end of your turn you're going to take persistent damage, which will increase your Dying value. So actually, you only survive in the 45% chance case that you succeed at Recovery; Failure that drops you to Dying 3 is already more than you can afford.
In this scenario it's really important that you get help before your turn.
The current system is in place so you can tell who your real friends are (or for when no one opts to come to your aid after having every opportunity).
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There is a bit of a problem with the rule, and that is what happens when you have a large encounter with many players and multiple monsters. Since it takes so long to reach your next turn (as the downed PC), it is not unlikely that you will be healed and then dropped again before you get to act, force-delaying you even further. You could feasibly go for 3 or so rounds without ever having a turn. That's especially frustrating if you've got fast healing running but it never does anything because your turn keeps getting 'skipped' by your initiative moving back.
For this reason, I think it's fine to give players the choice of where they want to be in initiative after being dropped. Essentially, not forcefully moving them at all, but letting them Delay without having to make recovery checks or triggering any other ongoing effects, though at most until right before the foe that dropped them.
In my personal experience (which is limited to a single AP), you are generally better off just stabilizing a downed comrade rather than actually healing him/her (assuming you don't absolutely need the downed character to win the fight).
Remember that a revived ally will (per the Unconscious condition) start out Prone, likely Wounded, likely at low HP, and having already dropped any weapons/equipment they were wielding, which is particularly bad if you are still within your foes' reach (I remember at least one boss fight where an ally had to deliberately provoke an AoO so my revived rogue could actually grab his weapon without dying).
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In my personal experience (which is limited to a single AP), you are generally better off just stabilizing a downed comrade rather than actually healing him/her (assuming you don't absolutely need the downed character to win the fight).
You're often right but there are quite a few exceptions
1) The one you pointed out - you really need the person to win the fight1a) This is especially true if you can arrange things so the other character contributes but in a fairly safe way. Eg, a bard inspiring from a distance (they get up, move and inspire their first round after getting up)
1b) You need the downed character to do LOTS of healing. You do a little healing to get them up, they do a lot of healing to keep the fighter up
2) You want to run away. Getting the other character up is generally essential for that
3) You can put enough hit points into the downed character that they're reasonably safe (and do so at a convenient time) for no greater cost (in effect) than a stabilize. Eg, you're in a one or two encounter a day wilderness campaign so 1 of your level 6 heal spells as a cleric is a VERY minimal cost.
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There is a bit of a problem with the rule, and that is what happens when you have a large encounter with many players and multiple monsters. Since it takes so long to reach your next turn (as the downed PC), it is not unlikely that you will be healed and then dropped again before you get to act, force-delaying you even further. You could feasibly go for 3 or so rounds without ever having a turn. That's especially frustrating if you've got fast healing running but it never does anything because your turn keeps getting 'skipped' by your initiative moving back.
For this reason, I think it's fine to give players the choice of where they want to be in initiative after being dropped. Essentially, not forcefully moving them at all, but letting them Delay without having to make recovery checks or triggering any other ongoing effects, though at most until right before the foe that dropped them.
In my personal experience (which is limited to a single AP), you are generally better off just stabilizing a downed comrade rather than actually healing him/her (assuming you don't absolutely need the downed character to win the fight).
Remember that a revived ally will (per the Unconscious condition) start out Prone, likely Wounded, likely at low HP, and having already dropped any weapons/equipment they were wielding, which is particularly bad if you are still within your foes' reach (I remember at least one boss fight where an ally had to deliberately provoke an AoO so my revived rogue could actually grab his weapon without dying).
While you are probably right from the perspective of Optimal play, the problem is that this also kills engagement from the downed player. Not getting to play the game for 30 minutes while the combat finishes will make a lot of people check out.
The current system is in place so you can tell who your real friends are (or for when no one opts to come to your aid after having every opportunity).
** spoiler omitted **
That, uh, feels deliberate. Maybe that Monk wasn't as fun for the other players?
That, uh, feels deliberate. Maybe that Monk wasn't as fun for the other players?The current system is in place so you can tell who your real friends are (or for when no one opts to come to your aid after having every opportunity).
** spoiler omitted **
Oh, I know exactly why it happened. They were quite open about it. They were all cowards; too afraid to risk their own characters to save mine. They didn't want to risk merging one encounter immediately after another by coming to get the monk.
While you are probably right from the perspective of Optimal play, the problem is that this also kills engagement from the downed player. Not getting to play the game for 30 minutes while the co
Can confirm. I've seen it happen too many times to count. I've even had it lead to player burnout a couple times. When you're frequently down and never get to play, it ceases feeling like roleplaying and starts to feel like you're getting punked or bullied (in real life). Some of my friends started relationships that way, either because they stopped roleplaying altogether and suddenly had more time for dating, or because they hooked up with other bored players who were similarly unable to play and were simply watching everyone else have fun from the sidelines. Misery loves company I suppose.
If your down and get healed, you still generally aren't a threat since your hands are empty and thus most creatures (unless after a meal) would likely move on to active threats, and healers.
So even if you get healed right after the last creature so they nearly all go before you they aren't likely to down you again, better to get to the healer anyhow. That gives you the agonizing wounded choice list. Stand up: likely.
Pick up what was in your hand: if you have a one handed weapon and can hit something though maybe the shield might be better.
Third action: hit something unlikely, grip your two hander seems like a wasted turn, move so you threaten things might be needed but risky, pick up your other one handed item also feels like a wasted turn, so raise shield, demoralize or spend action two and three on a spell?
Being unconscious is brutal, so I wouldn't have most things hit you just because you got some HP back, your next turn is very likely to be low impact anyhow.
If you want to house rule it I would say only change your initiative to right before the creature that downed you when your normal turn comes up, in case you get healed and your group likes you to have your turn. It can put you in a lot of danger though, since your turn is likely to stand and prepare to get another round of attacks on you.
That, uh, feels deliberate. Maybe that Monk wasn't as fun for the other players?The current system is in place so you can tell who your real friends are (or for when no one opts to come to your aid after having every opportunity).
** spoiler omitted **
Oh, I know exactly why it happened. They were quite open about it. They were all cowards; too afraid to risk their own characters to save mine. They didn't want to risk merging one encounter immediately after another by coming to get the monk.
Why was your monk rushing ahead of the group before they'd healed from the last fight?
Why was your monk rushing ahead of the group before they'd healed from the last fight?
LOL. I wasn't. I turned a corner and ran smack into the boss of the current encounter. He was sneaking behind several structures to get at the back of the party. I figured he was just another minion until he dropped me in a single blow.
Then, rather than joining the fight with his minions like I believe he's supposed to, he dragged me away into a nearby cave.
The party saw me unconscious getting carted away. Fearing that the guy who dropped may be a boss, or what else might be in the cave, they rested for 10 minutes before following.
They found my corpse at the entrance of the cave, just out of sight. The bastard fed me to a spider swarm. The GM was generous, and didn't have the swarm attack right away, so I could have been saved had the party acted, but no way did it make sense to him to have the swarm sit on a fresh meal for 10+ minutes.
The encounter was balanced to be fought with the boss and minions both, so I can't imagine the party was too terribly beat up.
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Why was your monk rushing ahead of the group before they'd healed from the last fight?LOL. I wasn't. I turned a corner and ran smack into the boss of the current encounter. He was sneaking behind several structures to get at the back of the party. I figured he was just another minion until he dropped me in a single blow.
Then, rather than joining the fight with his minions like I believe he's supposed to, he dragged me away into a nearby cave.
The party saw me unconscious getting carted away. Fearing that the guy who dropped may be a boss, or what else might be in the cave, they rested for 10 minutes before following.
They found my corpse at the entrance of the cave, just out of sight. The bastard fed me to a spider swarm. The GM was generous, and didn't have the swarm attack right away, so I could have been saved had the party acted, but no way did it make sense to him to have the swarm sit on a fresh meal for 10+ minutes.
The encounter was balanced to be fought with the boss and minions both, so I can't imagine the party was too terribly beat up.
Depends on the adversary, but in your GM's place I would think keeping you captive would make for a far more interesting climax than a cheap "offscreen" death.
I'm happy enough without the rule. My players tend to remind me of it. I find losing initiative order is not good for your health, not just delaying the recovery role.
In my personal experience (which is limited to a single AP), you are generally better off just stabilizing a downed comrade rather than actually healing him/her (assuming you don't absolutely need the downed character to win the fight).
Remember that a revived ally will (per the Unconscious condition) start out Prone, likely Wounded, likely at low HP, and having already dropped any weapons/equipment they were wielding, which is particularly bad if you are still within your foes' reach (I remember at least one boss fight where an ally had to deliberately provoke an AoO so my revived rogue could actually grab his weapon without dying).
My experience of running multiple full length campaigns is getting players up is often way better than letting them stay down. Sure wounded is dangerous (especially since I ran it as damaging a dying player increased it's dying value by the wounded as well) and they might need to swap to backup weapons.
But ultimately, if the party had a PC go down, it was rarely because the fight was so easy that 3 other PCs could just polish it off in the next two rounds.
There are exceptions ofc, reactive strike enemies in lower level play before mitigation options become commonplace are a good reason to stabilize, although a solid forced movement option can frequently allow a PC to regroup. Vision blockers are also great.