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Familiars seem like a forgotten class ability in PF2. I have player who likes to play witches. He has played two witches so far and neither one uses their familiar for anything. It's like a wasted ability.
He spent some feats to obtain a faerie dragon, tried to use its breath weapon once, the creature succeeded on its save, and he decided there was no point wasting actions using the familiar again. He doesn't even place it as a pawn on the board any longer because he never uses it.
No one in any of our games even thinks about familiars. They seem completely useless. Casters don't often build up stealth. The familiar doesn't get improved stealth on its own. Monsters have high perceptions and will likely see any creature that doesn't have a higher stealth. So they are fairly useless for scouting save for perhaps an imp that can turn invisible.
So what do your players do with familiars? Are they in the game for no reason? Their hit points are so low that one AoE hit and they usually die at higher level. Not sure how to protect them or what use they have. Love to hear what people are using them for and how you keep them alive at higher level.
Don't recall single use of familiar in all the PFS games I've played.
I did use a familiar (a mole) that my character had, but honestly, it was more flavour than anything. If it didn't have any rules it would've worked just as well if not better.
Sorry, one exception to familiar usage: Alchemist to get that sweet extra Reagent and casters to get extra Cantrip. But it never actually involved Familiar being represented.
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I've used a couple of times my Familiar in PFS. With Flyer, I use it to scout in the wilderness. As a side note, even if the enemies see it, they then have to roll a Nature check to determine this animal is acting strangely.
On my Alchemist, on the other hand, my Familiar is extremely important. Depending on the party I end in, I can go for Extra Reagent + Poison Reservoir to poison my weapon or an ally's one for one action. Or Extra Reagent + Manual Dexterity for a one action Stride + Elixir of Life. Sometimes I go for Extra Reagent + Valet if I want to go full Bombs. Or even Manual Dexterity + Poison Reservoir, hand it to our main frontliner and get a 1 action Elixir + poisoned weapon.
The ability to switch abilities every morning is very strong. So my Alchemist has a living moskito witch doll as a familiar, giving me the ability to completely rebuild it the way I want as it doesn't have default abilities.
And if it dies, it's a week of downtime to get one back. It's not crazy hard.
At high level, my Alchemist plans on using Juggernaut Mutagens on her Familiar for the extra 30 temporary hit points. But it's only interesting at level 11+.
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Depending on the sort of threats you're up against and whether your GM is the type to have enemies who are instantly capable of telling the difference between a bird and a bird familiar, they're often solid low risk scouts in many situations.
They have significant action economy potential if you need to actually retrieve items to make whatever your character does work, which is especially critical for alchemists whom can be make incredible use of a familiar with manual dexterity and valet.
Skilled is weird because it doesn't benefit as if it was Trained in the associated skill, but there are still some good applications. Aiding is one that isn't terrible at mid to high levels, but my favorite is combining speech and Skilled in a Lore Skill - so long as the GM is applying reduced DCs for appropriate Lores, it makes a familiar the ultimate Tomb-Raiding accessory when you pick the appropriate lore at the beginning of the day.
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Only had a couple of sessions but my wizard player made good use of Familiar Focus and Masters form. The familiar acts as an assistant, typically to carry the heirloom two handed sword that the wizard like to enchant and launch at people.
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I've never seen them used in combat, but familiars in the games I run get used pretty frequently as scouts. In a new game I just started as a player, the witch/rogue multiclass uses Partner in Crime a lot.
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My party has a wizard with a raven familiar, who's used mostly as a scout. A raven flapping around in the wilderness is pretty unobtrusive, and it's been pretty handy.
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With Vigilante archetype you could (with GM permission) use Master's Form and disguise to dress up your familiar as one of your personas in order to alleviate suspicion by having both of your personas seen at the same time.
With the Witch familiar having a connection to a patron deity, it can be used by the GM as a way of passing plot information to the players. Similar to Navi (but hopefully less annoying).
Otherwise, I've mostly seen them as short range scouts & distractions in combat thus far. As a combat distraction, the familiar died almost instantly, but the group really needed that extra second to heal up enough to rejoin the fight.
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My witch's cat familiar has been crazy useful in Fall of Plaguestone.
Since my familiar has Independent, he can keep out of harm's way each round, attempt to Demoralize a nearby target, or (with the right abilities) draw things for me and ready them for use by my witch.
Numerous times I've used that old cat to keep an eye on an NPC or to discreetely case a locale while the party adventured elsewhere. The following day, I grant it the power of speech, to better inform my witch of his findings. I can then use that information to better prepare appropriate spells when confronting that NPC or visiting that locale.
It's pretty good at stealth since I trained in that skill, but even if it wasn't, few people would look twice at a stray cat.
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So far:
Lots of scouting uses; stealth; info dump; flyby oversight
Action economy “third hand shenanigans”
Carrying stuff
Dying usefully/distraction
Demoralise
To add to Deriven’s OP - for those porting over from PF1 - what is different - what can’t you do any longer that you could, or if that is boring/obvs what can you do now that you couldn’t?
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Why couldn't it be a super annoying prankster? My cat gets into trouble all the time.
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Speak any of your languages, ... transform into a perfect duplicate ... Deliver or Share spell with any ally (member of the team) ... Can't steal well ... It can't become a Chad with animals of its kind (Get the Druid wild empathy or charm spells that target animals of ots kind). Animal Exemplar.
In order: speech, master's form (kinda), spell delivery, partner in crime, kinspeech (to an extent).
Of course, some of these aren't perfect (master's form being the same ancestry and such, but not a perfect duplicate), but things like speech and spell delivery are exactly something you're saying they can't do.
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I like using familiar's for getting extra focus points and delivering items to allies if im unable to get into range without danger
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You're assuming that the familiar can carry items.
The ability to carry items (and what bulk it can carry) is currently undefined. It's a fine houserule, but nothing in the RAW allows it.
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Well considering valet explicitly allows the familiar to draw and give you an item of light or negligible bulk, it seems like the game supports familiars at least being able to hold that much.
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Yes, the Valet ability allows it to draw and place in your hand such an item. It doesn't say that the familiar can carry it somewhere else, say to give it to another PC or drop it on the battlefield.
So, again, it's a fine house rule, but not something explicitly allowed by the RAW.
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Yes, the Valet ability allows it to draw and place in your hand such an item. It doesn't say that the familiar can carry it somewhere else, say to give it to another PC or drop it on the battlefield.
So, again, it's a fine house rule, but not something explicitly allowed by the RAW.
I don't see how you can logically decide it can't carry an item if we explicitly know it can hold it
I don't see how you can logically decide it can't carry an item if we explicitly know it can hold itYes, the Valet ability allows it to draw and place in your hand such an item. It doesn't say that the familiar can carry it somewhere else, say to give it to another PC or drop it on the battlefield.
So, again, it's a fine house rule, but not something explicitly allowed by the RAW.
It never says you can hold it: it can only move an item you're wearing to your hand. It could be dragging to you hand, it could magically teleport it there are anything lese as it never says how it happens other that it uses interact actions. Even Toolbearer and Lab Assistant never state the familiar ever holds anything.
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So it sounds like an alchemist can use a familiar best.
Also seems allowing it to scout safely is based on DM caveat, not any kind of good scouting ability.
So people are playing them much like they did in PF1, but they don't really have the same abilities for doing so.
So a familiar can hand me a thing from my pack, but can't carry it to me?
Can it? "your familiar Interact to retrieve an item of light or negligible Bulk you are wearing and place it into one of your free hands": you are NOT wearing anything in your backpack. You are only wearing your backpack.
Are retriever dogs a conspiracy or what? What are the things you see in the park?
Maybe as a animal companion: that have actual stats and stat modifiers.
If in the game you tell your familiar dog to fetch a ball or stick, what do you expect the GM to say? The dog explodes?
As long as your character is wearing balls and sticks, it's all good... ;)
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Yes, the Valet ability allows it to draw and place in your hand such an item. It doesn't say that the familiar can carry it somewhere else, say to give it to another PC or drop it on the battlefield.That is the one of the most ridiculous things I have heard.
@Rangdos: I think you are over-reacting. If you are here to discuss and understand other points of view you could ask for clarification. In these RAI vs RAW discussions, there is a view that rules RAW are inclusive or exclusive - either they include concepts or they exclude them.
In this case, it is not ridiculous to posit that while a familiar might be able to hold an item, that does not immediately mean they can carry it. The rule, as written, just doesn’t even mention that. This is quite apart from the fact that there isn’t even tacit mention of holding, and it really could be telekinesis, portals, translocation etc etc. The problem with calling for RAI or resorting to arguments of logic is that they don’t mesh with how people understand the RAW. So to say that people are ridiculous for calmly stating that they don’t see what you are saying is logical or a moderate response is...ridiculous?
Are retriever dogs a conspiracy or what? What are the things you see in the park?
I don’t see wizards in the park, but I’m pretty sure they have rules in PF2. Retriever dogs not so much. The problem with this line of reasoning is not useful, because it sets up a paradigm of logic in the real world as a reason to argue why things should be a certain way in a fantasy world where walking diagonally “costs” different amounts of movement depending upon the order in which you do it, items have wildly different mass/weight ratios and..well...wizards exist.
I get it. It makes sense. And most of the folks discussing things would probably agree with you, in essence, that some things should be logical. But the rules are a construct, and all folks are saying is “but the rules don’t explicitly support what you argue”. It all comes down to: table variation (always) and whether a particular GM feels the rules are inclusive and can infer options outside of their written text, or exclusive, where only what the text allows is a given.
If in the game you tell your familiar dog to fetch a ball or stick, what do you expect the GM to say? The dog explodes?
That could work if your familiar had eaten the ball or stick and was an explodog and that was its general method of delivery. Or telekinesis, portals etc after which the familiar explodes with happiness, either figuratively (super-loyal familiar) or literally (exploding variety).
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If you are going to say that's sign language, where is the rule that defines the signs?
Right here.
For someone spitting a series of insulting hot takes that disregard the rules, I think your perspective could use an actual review of the rules themselves...
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It never says you can hold it: it can only move an item you're wearing to your hand. It could be dragging to you hand, it could magically teleport it there are anything lese as it never says how it happens other that it uses interact actions. Even Toolbearer and Lab Assistant never state the familiar ever holds anything.I don't see how you can logically decide it can't carry an item if we explicitly know it can hold itYes, the Valet ability allows it to draw and place in your hand such an item. It doesn't say that the familiar can carry it somewhere else, say to give it to another PC or drop it on the battlefield.
So, again, it's a fine house rule, but not something explicitly allowed by the RAW.
Toolbearer "Your familiar can carry a set of tools of up to light Bulk"
Carry: to take or support from one place to another; convey; transport:
He carried her for a mile in his arms. This elevator cannot carry more than ten people.
Or:
to wear, hold, or have around one:
He carries his knife in his pocket. He carries a cane.
Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say it's clear that the familiar can carry items.
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Toolbearer "Your familiar can carry a set of tools of up to light Bulk"
Sure... Where does it say hold? "you can draw and replace the tools as part of the action that uses them as if you were wearing them"
Carry:
Carry has a meaning IN the game: "You can carry an amount of Bulk equal to 5 plus your Strength modifier without penalty; if you carry more, you gain the encumbered condition." Unless you are saying that someone is carrying every single bulk of equipment IN HAND, the only way to take it is that it means what you can transport on yourself. Armor is carried. Backpacks are carried. Clothes are carried. All you have to do is look at the equipment charts and see the bulk values. Now carry COULD mean hold but it also means wear or equipped. You can't fall back to conversational terms when the game defines them in game.
Okay I can't let you wave at someone because the interact action says you have to interact with an object or the terrain and air is not defined as terrain.
Interact has the Manipulate trait and that means it includes "make gestures to use an action with this trait."
When 2 humans speak normally do works come out of their mouthes?
Assuming you mean words...
"All speech has the auditory trait. If you communicate in some way other than speech, other rules might apply. For instance, using sign language is visual instead of auditory."Auditory says "actions and effects rely on sound."
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Toolbearer "Your familiar can carry a set of tools of up to light Bulk"Sure... Where does it say hold? "you can draw and replace the tools as part of the action that uses them as if you were wearing them"
Carry:Carry has a meaning IN the game: "You can carry an amount of Bulk equal to 5 plus your Strength modifier without penalty; if you carry more, you gain the encumbered condition." Unless you are saying that someone is carrying every single bulk of equipment IN HAND, the only way to take it is that it means what you can transport on yourself. Armor is carried. Backpacks are carried. Clothes are carried. All you have to do is look at the equipment charts and see the bulk values. Now carry COULD mean hold but it also means wear or equipped. You can't fall back to conversational terms when the game defines them in game.
Okay I can't let you wave at someone because the interact action says you have to interact with an object or the terrain and air is not defined as terrain.Interact has the Manipulate trait and that means it includes "make gestures to use an action with this trait."
When 2 humans speak normally do works come out of their mouthes?Assuming you mean words...
"All speech has the auditory trait. If you communicate in some way other than speech, other rules might apply. For instance, using sign language is visual instead of auditory."Auditory says "actions and effects rely on sound."
Correct me if im wrong, is there a strict limit on how much bulk you can hold in your hands mechanically? I don't believe there is, which makes it more about ease of carrying (length, width etc) rather than some kind of strength requirement.
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Trying to continue the argument as if PF2 were a life-simulator with absolutely everything encoded will go nowhere fast. Poking holes in the framework to attempt to sway people who will not be swayed doesn't go anywhere either.
The rules encourage a certain degree of permissiveness, allowing things that make sense to the table and adjusting or expanding on what's encoded to suit the climate. If other tables/people on the internet insist that a familiar can carry things and put them in the master's hand but not do the same for anyone else, that's their problem.
Correct me if im wrong, is there a strict limit on how much bulk you can hold in your hands mechanically? I don't believe there is, which makes it more about ease of carrying (length, width etc) rather than some kind of strength requirement.
Nope, they can technically carry up to their max bulk limit. Things is with a familiar is that don't have any as they have NO str stat or stat modifier. You literally can not calculate what they can carry. The only way they can carry anything in the game is to have a specific ability that allows them to carry something and then it's limited to that.
Also, bulk represents "its size, weight, and general awkwardness" so a DM might increase it's bulk if it's too much bulk in your hands, especially when it's more than your own bulk [tiny is 1, small is 3 and medium 6].
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To add to Deriven’s OP - for those porting over from PF1 - what is different - what can’t you do any longer that you could, or if that is boring/obvs what can you do now that you couldn’t?
No ley line guardian (or other archetypes) Can't trade a vulnerability out for a class feature that -can't- be stabbed in the face.
Manipulate lets you move your hands but you still must obey the restrictions of the Interact action, which limits why and what you can do with those gestures.
Air is a terrain: for instance wind can be difficult terrain. It's hard for difficult terrain to not be terrain.
So it uses sound. Where does the sound come from?
Various spells inform you, it's the mouth. Also Drowning and Suffocation lets you know you can't hold your breath and speak.
To add to Deriven’s OP - for those porting over from PF1 - what is different - what can’t you do any longer that you could, or if that is boring/obvs what can you do now that you couldn’t?No ley line guardian (or other archetypes) Can't trade a vulnerability out for a class feature that -can't- be stabbed in the face.
I miss my mirror witch.
She was so much fun in "In Search of Sanity".
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I am being told we cannot use real world experiences to understand the Pathfinder fantasy world so my statement that real dogs can retrieive items is not valid and familars cannot, so I ask again, how did you decide how humans make noises?
I didn’t say you weren’t allowed Rangdos. I said it wasn’t useful. Validity is in the eye of the beholder. This is only really enforceable by your GM - and they will interpret the RAW as they see fit. Folks here are making points that there are no explicit instances that you mention that can concretely be relied upon where the “logical” “conclusions” you have aren’t supported by the text. It doesn’t mean your interpretations is incorrect, but your arguments might be. If the text isn’t there to explicitly then arguing that it should be is only an opinion. Without a developer clarification, Errata or FAQ then it is GM fiat, which it always is anyway...
I would rather see you say how you want it to be, rather than how it is, because it just patently, to me, isn’t true. I don’t have a horse in this race, but I do care that the race is run well.
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Yes, the Valet ability allows it to draw and place in your hand such an item. It doesn't say that the familiar can carry it somewhere else, say to give it to another PC or drop it on the battlefield.That is the one of the most ridiculous things I have heard.
So a familiar can hand me a thing from my pack, but can't carry it to me?
Are retriever dogs a conspiracy or what? What are the things you see in the park?
If in the game you tell your familiar dog to fetch a ball or stick, what do you expect the GM to say? The dog explodes?
This point of discussion has been going around in various forms since PF2 was published.
FWIW, I'm perfectly OK with allowing a familiar to carry a single item of light or negligible bulk for any purpose you like, whether to fetch an unattended item on the battlefield, deliver an item to another player, bomb the enemy with an acid flask from above, or whatever you like.
But that is a DM call or a house rule. The RAW do not give familiars a STR score. They do not allow you to calculate their carrying capacity. And if you read the various familiar powers, your familiar can do only what the power says it can do, not similar actions that you want it to do but aren't specified in the rules.
Take the example of the valet ability:
"you can have your familiar Interact to retrieve an item of light or negligible Bulk you are wearing and place it into one of your free hands."
Note that this ability does not allow your familiar to give an item to your buddy standing next to you. Or pick up an item off the ground in your square. Or get an item out of your backpack or another container.
Further down in the thread someone mentioned the toolbearer ability:
Your familiar can carry a set of tools of up to light Bulk.
This ability does not allow it to carry something that is of light bulk but not a set of tools. It doesn't allow the familiar to give the tools to your buddy. It doesn't allow your familiar to fly the tools across town to deliver them to somebody else.
The familiar abilities let a familiar do what they say they can do, not theoretically similar tasks that are not listed.
But remember this: your DM can always allow any actions that seem plausible. You are not bound by the RAW, except in PFS games.
This sort of argument may well seem ridiculous. But it all comes down to what the Rules as Written allow versus what is logical and plausible for a DM to allow.
In PF2, familiars are not combat buddies like they were in PF1. They are a class feature that gives some limited benefits. That's all. IF you want them to be more than a limited class feature, then you have to talk with your DM and decide what will be allowed and what won't.
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Shroudb, I'm familiar with your arguments, which amount to granting the familiar a +0 STR mod, exactly as if it had a 10 STR.
I have no problem with that. At your table, you can calculate it however you like. But that doesn't make it consistent with the RAW.
I won't beat a dead horse here. Our various opinions are not really relevant to the questions at hand. Our various opinions show quite conclusively that any question concerning a familiar's ability to carry gear is going to be subject to considerable variation from one DM to the next.
The RAW are ambiguous, and until such time as we have a clarification from errata or a future book, they will remain ambiguous, regardless of what arguments our diverse opinions try to trot out.
A familiars STR score and its consequent ability or lack of ability to carry gear are undefined, except for the specific cases described in the specific familiar abilities, such as the valet ability or the toolbearer ability. That's the RAW. Anything else is DM fiat or a house rule.
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Outside RAW considerations, it's pretty easy to determine that a macaque can carry and use a potion the same way a horse can drag a coach, a dog can bark on trespassers and a cat can play with a dead mice. It is subject to DM fiat like everything else in the game, but I hardly see a DM stating a small monkey can't carry a potion.
Now, for the exact quantity, it's another matter. Also, the question is raised for non-animal Familiars, like homunculus.