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Please don't have the summoner and Eidolon share MAP. That makes a summoner fighting with/mounted on their Eidolon a very bad idea.
I think it would be a lot better if the Eidolon and summoner did not share skills. Maybe the summoner could apply some of their skill increases to the eidolon instead of themselves? I'd like the eidolon to be able to choose to emphasize athletics, or stealth, Arcana/Occultism/Nature/Religion on a casting focused eidolon, or something else without that being what the summoner is good at too.
I don't like the summoner having evolution surge, especially as a default ability. It makes it so the eidolon is not consistent thematically, and it being default means it feels bad not using it.
I think it would be good if there were incentives to not having the Eidolon always summoned. I think being able to summon the eidolon at range and have it make attacks that turn would make playing a summoner a lot more fun.
I'd really like the summoner to be able to select a feat to support their eidolon concept at level 1.
Concepts I would like to see supported:
Synthesist, with no ability to summon a separate Eidolon.
Normal summoner, casting spells or supporting the eidolon with powers.
A summoner who rides on and fights with the eidolon (they need to not share MAP when mounted, and being able to mount the Eidolon at level 1 would be best for making this viable as quickly as possible).
A big Eidolon with strong melee attacks (feats for interesting actions in combat would make this less boring, support for pushing, tripping, and grappling would be nice).
A more skillful/casting focused eidolon (more feats to give them spellcasting, ranged attack at level 1 would be best)
Actions I would like to see:
A power attack like ability
Pounce, move and attack
Flurry, multiple attacks, requiring an agile unarmed attack to use
A defensive action the raises AC, grants resistance, or gives a reaction like shield block
Attacks with extra effects like knockdown, knockback, or grab
Attacks that give conditions like stun, bleed persistent damage, enfeebled, clumsy...
Breath weapon
Attacking multiple/all enemies in melee reach
Attacking with a greater reach like Lunge
Trample
Web
Conditional attacks like rend, rake, or constrict
Magical abilities like lifedrain, spells, a fear causing effect
Reactions like Nimble Dodge, Shield Block, or Attack of Opportunity
Abilities I would like to see:
Support for movement options: increasing speed, climbing, swimming, flying, leaping, burrowing
Ranged attack (this could be a choice at level 1, a powerful melee attack or a weaker ranged attack)
Increasing Size (this doesn't do much on it's own, so it should really provide at least some other benefit to be worth a feat. Damage bonus, bonus to trip/grab/shove, bonus to reach?)
Poison
Increasing defense (increasing AC, maybe in exchange for lowering speed, or damage resistant)
Resist magic, elemental resistances
Ways to add elemental effects (maybe change damage type, add extra elemental damage, could be tied to resistance)
Fast healing
I think it would be a lot better if the Eidolon and summoner did not share skills. Maybe the summoner could apply some of their skill increases to the eidolon instead of themselves? I'd like the eidolon to be able to choose to emphasize athletics, or stealth, Arcana/Occultism/Nature/Religion on a casting focused eidolon, or something else without that being what the summoner is good at too.
Question, where does it say the Summoner and Eidolon share skills? I've seen other posters say the same thing, but I can't find that in the playtest document.
Closest I've been able to find is that they share item bonuses to skills that come from invested items.
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I think it would be a lot better if the Eidolon and summoner did not share skills. Maybe the summoner could apply some of their skill increases to the eidolon instead of themselves? I'd like the eidolon to be able to choose to emphasize athletics, or stealth, Arcana/Occultism/Nature/Religion on a casting focused eidolon, or something else without that being what the summoner is good at too.Question, where does it say the Summoner and Eidolon share skills? I've seen other posters say the same thing, but I can't find that in the playtest document.
Closest I've been able to find is that they share item bonuses to skills that come from invested items.
Under the Eidolons section (the one which lists the different types, not the class ability section), under Proficiencies is the sentence "They share your skill proficiencies."
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I think it would be a lot better if the Eidolon and summoner did not share skills. Maybe the summoner could apply some of their skill increases to the eidolon instead of themselves? I'd like the eidolon to be able to choose to emphasize athletics, or stealth, Arcana/Occultism/Nature/Religion on a casting focused eidolon, or something else without that being what the summoner is good at too.
Shared Skills is an obvious balance "patch" that prevents a Summoner + Eidolon from covering a far wider range of skills than any other character. Shared skills means the duo is closer to balanced because their skill proficiency pool is the same as anyone else.
An Eidolon can already emphasize Athletics and Stealth (and any physical skill) by virtue of having a strong Ability Score Modifier to go with it, unlike any other typical caster.
Giving each their own pool of skills results in either a balance issue because the duo has too much skill coverage, or it results in a balance issue because theyre spread too thin because of any effort to prevent the first issue.
I think a much better path to address skill concerns is to add more "skill" themed evolution feats to the class skill list. At the very least, something that functions like "Additional Lore" and provides extra Increases to the Eidolons signature skill, or possibly circumstance or status bonuses to skills to represent certain Eidolon "builds" in the body shape sense.
Under the Eidolons section (the one which lists the different types, not the class ability section), under Proficiencies is the sentence "They share your skill proficiencies."I think it would be a lot better if the Eidolon and summoner did not share skills. Maybe the summoner could apply some of their skill increases to the eidolon instead of themselves? I'd like the eidolon to be able to choose to emphasize athletics, or stealth, Arcana/Occultism/Nature/Religion on a casting focused eidolon, or something else without that being what the summoner is good at too.Question, where does it say the Summoner and Eidolon share skills? I've seen other posters say the same thing, but I can't find that in the playtest document.
Closest I've been able to find is that they share item bonuses to skills that come from invested items.
Thank you
I mean the easiest way to solve the problem is to give the Eidelon 1 + Int. skills, give the Summoner 0 +Int Skills, and then give them 2 skills which they both share.
Not necessarily those numbers but something like that.
Thats the sort of "cripple both characters" solution that worries me. Currently, Summoners get 4 + Int from class, plus background, for both the Summoner and the Eidolon.
It encourages you to make some skill choices for the Summoner, and some for the Eidolon, but the big plus is that both characters benefit regardless of why you took Athletics, or whatever.
Separating their capabilities and making both less capable overall at the same time is not a good solution. A Summoner already struggles enough and doesn't need to be further weakened.
But if you increase the sum of trained skills between them, its an obvious balance issue between players the other way.
Shared skills is an elegant solution for balancing this aspect of the character. It may not be your thematic preference, but it does make sense with the "linked minds" angle the 2E summoner takes and has explicit parity with all other characters when it comes to skill selection.
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Giving the eidolon skills based on their Int modifier would be nice to make that stat more meaningful.
But then, how do you handle skill increases? Does the eidolon cap at trained? If you grant increases to the eidolon, whether extra or in place of some of the Summoner's ones, tracking everything becomes more complicated.
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Sharing MAP does greatly limit the summoner. I'm not quite sure why they structured it that way. Attack spells are in a bad enough place without having a caster share MAP with only Master level casting. Seems like too much of a penalty.
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Sharing MAP does greatly limit the summoner. I'm not quite sure why they structured it that way. Attack spells are in a bad enough place without having a caster share MAP with only Master level casting. Seems like too much of a penalty.
Honestly, I'm not as certain it is as big a absolute deal. given you are sharing actions, I don't know how often you will be doing an attack from both sides, using both the Summoner and the Eidolon. It might be simply possible to add a feat Strike together where you and the Eidolon attack the same target. Allow it to delay the increase to map until both attacks are processed. Otherwise you won't be having tons of actions that your MAP is going to be likely boosted way up there. After all, you are focusing on getting the most of the attacks of yourself, or your Eidolon, so if you divide your resource focus into both you and your Eidolon for those attacks, you are likely to be hurting a bit for success anyway.
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Sharing MAP does greatly limit the summoner. I'm not quite sure why they structured it that way. Attack spells are in a bad enough place without having a caster share MAP with only Master level casting. Seems like too much of a penalty.Honestly, I'm not as certain it is as big a absolute deal. given you are sharing actions, I don't know how often you will be doing an attack from both sides, using both the Summoner and the Eidolon. It might be simply possible to add a feat Strike together where you and the Eidolon attack the same target. Allow it to delay the increase to map until both attacks are processed. Otherwise you won't be having tons of actions that your MAP is going to be likely boosted way up there. After all, you are focusing on getting the most of the attacks of yourself, or your Eidolon, so if you divide your resource focus into both you and your Eidolon for those attacks, you are likely to be hurting a bit for success anyway.
It would be easiest to remove shared MAP and leave it up the summoner to manage his actions each round like a druid or any class does with a minion or companion. Shared MAP is too locked in a playstyle that hurts build variation.
I don't mind sharing MAP.
I actually like shared skills, but I do wish the eidolon somehow benefited from your skill feats, especially while using Synthesis.
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I don't have a strong opinion on sharing MAP with the eidolon, but I'm pretty sure that sharing MAP with a creature you're mounted on is pretty standard for the system already. I think that's the case for both regular mounts as well as animal companions.
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Sharing map seems reasonable to me. The eidolon is at the power level of a martial, and stronger than an animal companion. Giving it its own MAP is like separating the MAP of the fighter's two swords, just because they're different weapons.
You could just throw a greatsword on the summoner, and get 1d12 and 1d8 attacks at full map from level 1, which even a fighter can't really do.
I think a tandem strike action would be really cool, as it'd basically be like a economy fixers like every other martial class gets, and it'd cost a feat to keep it balanced. But getting two strong full MAP attacks from level 1 for free seems weird, especially on the summoner.
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Eidolons cannot use weapons.
They can use weapons, they just don't have a proficiency in them.
Off-topic, but I really hope that we get a way to give them proficiency in the full version.They can use weapons, they just don't have a proficiency in them.Eidolons cannot use weapons.
Seems unlikely.
An Eidolon with a weapon is strictly superior to one without, which creates a strictly superior Eidolon progression path. Anything else becomes a trap option.
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Whelp, if that is all true, then there goes another fun concept.
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Whelp, if that is all true, then there goes another fun concept.
Conceptually, all Eidolons can 'use weapons', its an explicitly detailed option for an Eidolon's unarmed attacks.
Its only mechanically that it isn't viable for them.
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Not looking to reskin concepts. It always feels hollow. I hate the weapons flavorful mechanics are gated as “critical specialisations” that aren’t generic to any character (or eidolon wielding weapons) criticals for examples, so...another potentially fun concept suffers doublefold.
^^^ What Ocean says. Not all of us like reskinning.
Which is cool. Absolutely, don't like it. I can't stop you liking or not liking something, nor am I trying to.
It doesnt change the fact that there are significant hurdles balance wise if you allow some Eidolons to wield weapons which would make them strictly better than Eidolons who don't, and that these hurdles are instantly removed by making "weapons" a description of the base Eidolon attacks.
No one has said it wouldn't be cool if Eidolons could use weapons, or that it doesnt make sense.
Its just inherently less balanced, and creates issues (winner choices vs lower choices) that the devs are trying to avoid.
So while you may not like reskinning, its being implicitly suggested that everyone "take one for the team" on this concept for a more balanced Eidolon.
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Not looking to reskin concepts. It always feels hollow. I hate the weapons flavorful mechanics are gated as “critical specialisations” that aren’t generic to any character (or eidolon wielding weapons) criticals for examples, so...another potentially fun concept suffers doublefold.It’s not reskinning, it’s literally what the ability says to do.
This entry suggests forms the eidolon's attacks might take, but since eidolons have various body shapes, you decide the specific form of the unarmed attacks (claw, jaws, horn, fist, and so on) when you choose your eidolon. Some eidolons might have unarmed attacks that look like weapons and are extensions of the eidolon's form. Your choice of unarmed attack determines the unarmed attack's damage type—bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, as appropriate for the type of unarmed attack you selected. Some of the suggested attacks have a typical damage type listed in parentheses, but you can work with your GM to choose a damage type that's right for your eidolon. Once you decide your eidolon's unarmed attacks, they can't be changed, except with your GM's permission.
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In rare form. I'm going to side with Krispy on this one. Eidolons don't need to wield melee weapons specifically because pf2e focuses on balance first narrative second.
So it's unbalanced to give them melee weapons.
And rysky also highlights how they them double back to narrative power to tell you they can have unarmed attacks that look like weapons. Like an angel who wields a long sword but that longsword is actually a part of it not a separate weapon.
This obviously is a little funny in some ways and results in mechanical issues as they might be aesthetically wielding a longsword but they cannot be disarmed or use unique weapon attack actions like power attack.
But it's paizos half measure to maintain their balance goal while giving you a workaround in terms of fluff.
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Yes. I understand what has been done. I lament that it unfortunately, to me, is disappointing. Yes, great, you can choose your damage type, and “choose the aesthetic”. I would still classify that imprimatur as reskinning, or if you like, just “skinning”. It isn’t ever going to be a weapon with weapon functions. I understand the balance implications. That doesn’t mean I’m not looking to see a solution, where the balance is kept, or a trade made elsewhere. I just don’t understand all the implications yet. I’m sure I’ll work it out.
I’m moving on from PF1. Pathfinder 2e. I have to admit, the mechanical-concept options I really enjoyed discovering in PF1 aren’t exactly blooming, nascent system that 2e is notwithstanding. And those options weren’t game-breaking or power-munchkin’d. I’m too hopeless to see them, and unwilling to take them from a guide or thread that held the “build”. I’m more of a naive scout, coming across strange synergies and arcane interactions in otherwise depowered characters, but that I liked, gave me narrative scope and occasionally surprised me. I hope they are here, and given the “dedication” system (falsely known as “multiclassing” gnash/wail) I think they are. But I don’t see them, and seeing this approach to the eidolon is disappointing. Probably a mountainous molehill though, so I’m, as I said, moving on. Hey, it’s just the playtest right! We’ll have lazor-eyes yet dagnabit!!!
I love the weapon critical effects - Kirthfinder (and I’m sure other, many systems) had them - they make weapons more than “I throw a d20 at it...again. This is an aside of course to the current discourse on eidolons, but it carries over.
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Oh yes. My weapon looks like.. a.. whip... that can't trip, doesn't have reach etc etc. That feels pretty terrible.Not looking to reskin concepts. It always feels hollow. I hate the weapons flavorful mechanics are gated as “critical specialisations” that aren’t generic to any character (or eidolon wielding weapons) criticals for examples, so...another potentially fun concept suffers doublefold.It’s not reskinning, it’s literally what the ability says to do.This entry suggests forms the eidolon's attacks might take, but since eidolons have various body shapes, you decide the specific form of the unarmed attacks (claw, jaws, horn, fist, and so on) when you choose your eidolon. Some eidolons might have unarmed attacks that look like weapons and are extensions of the eidolon's form. Your choice of unarmed attack determines the unarmed attack's damage type—bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, as appropriate for the type of unarmed attack you selected. Some of the suggested attacks have a typical damage type listed in parentheses, but you can work with your GM to choose a damage type that's right for your eidolon. Once you decide your eidolon's unarmed attacks, they can't be changed, except with your GM's permission.
If all that matters to you is the mechanics and not the visual then play an actual whip Fighter or something.
While a feat that adds weapons properties would be neat I have no idea how or if they'd be able to balance it, other than just offering a select few like Agile or Backswing or something.
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By this logic, why have any classes at all?
Nice slippery slope fallacy.
It's easy to balance the system.
That's an assumption you continue to have that you continue to be proven wrong on.
If literally any martial class can choose what weapons
Correct, Martials can select a wapon with a preset loadout of properties on it, they don't get to pick and choose.
Eidolons now get to pick what forms their attacks take, having preset loadouts that confine what properties they can take doesn't really gel with that design process. And build-a-weapon is right out.
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The entire point of eidolon is that its a creature you can summon to fight for you. Whether thats as a monster or an armed creature.
If I wanted to play a fighter I would play that. But I want to play a Summoner that can summon an actual creature, that I can customize, and give it what ever weapon I envision them having with the proper traits.
Its not even a problem of balance because the Summoner still needs to buy the weapon enchantments which means they have less money to spend than any other class.
"I give all my equipment to my Eidolon" is not a design path they're taking.