@Temperans: Do you mean one weapon/attack form/weapon stat array that is Master proficiency from the get go? To give the eidolon a signature attack each round?
Understood. But Rysky might not be against feat support for the agreed concept.
It’s pretty clear to me that evo points are anathematic to the designer’s PF2 paradigm.
And as some have pointed out, the feat-source version can approach the customisation approximately or even more elegantly than the point system. Though how early, and how approximate is a matter for further debate.
I have a feeling that the Race builder point system shenanigsns and associated bad-taste-in-mouth of Summoner minionmancy (quite apart from evo-built shenanigans) led to some pretty heavy side-eye toward point systems.
I prefer evo points. Call me a rose-tinted glass, halcyon stick in the mud. It just felt more customisable. Even if it wasn’t.
Ok, lets just presume there is a balance-able way to haven an option for the Eidolon to be able to get the equivalent of a melee weapon. What might that look like.
It might require a feat. (or class archetype which in the long run costs a feat).
Current unarmed strikes give 1d8 damage (p|s|b) as you choose at design, and give you an alternate attack normally 1d4 damage (p|s|b) as you choose at design.
Would it be completely unreasonable to offer the alternative to swap both of these attacks with the ability to have the Eidolon have the use of a Simple 1-Handed Melee weapon as their one and only 'unarmed attack'. It would get use of any non-racial trait that doesn't change it to 2-handed, or allow it to be used as a ranged weapon.
Perhaps there could be a feat that might allow them to either switch their 'weapon' to become a martial melee weapon, or switch it to be a simple 2-handed weapon. Switching to allow a ranged attack would have to be a feat high enough level that created the option for an eidolon ranged attack.
And yes, this single weapon to which the Eidolon has as part of its attributes, uses the same proficiency bonus as their unarmed attack proficiency. It doesn't grant them proficiency in any other weapons.
This trade-off for getting a simple weapon, might be allowed to have a d4 non-lethal secondary unarmed attack. (similar, but not with all the traits of fist, especially if you allow the eidolon to become disarmed) I'd actually allow the Eidolon to become disarmed, but re-manifesting the Eidolon, the old weapon will vanish (as well if it goes past a certain range) and the Eidolon will be re-manifested with its weapon.
Really, simple weapons have traits, but are invariably less damage unless you include the two handed versions which offer equivalent damage 1d8 (but in case of the spear, grants reach). So by limiting yourself to only being able to use the weapon single handed (or mechanically only getting the benefit of it being one handed, fluff it two handed if you want) It doesn't seem like it is likely to be a serious balance concern.
Limit access to uncommon simple weapons, to ones that the Summoner has access to. It could be that feats, such as ancestry feats/class ability that make certain weapons simple, for the Summoner, will not make the same weapons simple for the Eidolon, for purposes of choosing a simple weapon. (after all, is only for purposes of determining the proficiency of the summoner, not access for the Eidolon) Ignore any two-handed properties, or thrown properties, unless a future feat enables them for the Eidolon. Can the Eidolon use a magic weapon of the exact type of its specified weapon. Maybe if the Sorcerer invests the item, it can replace the normal 'natural' one that is part of the Eidolon. That becomes more complicated, but might be an option. Otherwise, just have the summoner carry the weapon, invest it, and have the Eidolon's innate weapon take the shape/appearance of the specified/invested weapon.
So, if one can agree (and it is debate-able) that a simple 1-handed weapon isn't really mechanically stronger than the offered natural attacks, it could be be offered as a free selection at creation of the Eidolon. Alternately, it would be a 1st level evolution feat, or potentially a class archetype feat.
I would think that offering a feat at 8th level that enabled thrown properties on simple melee weapons would be weaker than the current 8th level feat. (might consider making this one a 6th level feat dependent on having a prerequisite of the Simple Weapon attack (be it feat or choice).
4th level Unarmed Evolution offers one trait (but doesn't include reach) so I was contemplating the idea of a feat to enable 2-handed simple weapons being a 4th level feat. But that really only enables 2-handed staff use, and spear (with reach) returning their damage to the normal starting damage for an eidolon.
Perhaps something that might make enabling Martial Weapon use something more concept based(not a required), might be to have it be that if a eidolon chooses to utilize a Martial Weapon attack, it does not get boosted by your Boost Eidolon spell.
I thought I'd remembered an evolution feat that increased the die of one of their natural attacks, and was thinking that would be a level you could look at offering the choice of a martial 1-handed melee weapon. However, I'm not seeing it, so I might have imagined it. I don't know what level, making such a choice might be viable, and there might be other balance concerns, such as I mentioned above, with potentially having it not work with Boost spell. Perhaps the martial tier feat might insure you have a fist/like non-lethal secondary strike (although I'd want them to be able to choose P/S/B) available that could benefit from the boost if you want to resort to it.
Granted, this doesn't let you, 1st level have a plate-mailed Eidolon wielding a claymore chopping people in half... although you could skin the dagger or sickle option from the start and work towards more damaging weapons later on. Instead, you probably just use the 1d8 slashing option to start and switch to weapon when you can afford to retrain and get weapon + martial option + martial 2H option which might be a number of levels. Since really a claymore/greatsword doesn't have much in the way of traits.
In any case, I'm thinking there could be a reasonable/responsible balanced way to offer the choice of an Eidolon being able to pick a weapon to use. I think it might take some thought to get there, but it should be doable. I'm sure it will be done, be it by Paizo or by a third party, or just by common homebrew. (but yes, there will also be some over-powered options presented as well, at some point by homebrew, and potentially thrid partys)
I'm guessing it won't show up in core, but it might show up in actual Paizo material at some point.
@Loreguard: Thanks for the breakdown of some of the mechsnicsl implications. I think it obvious that there are folks who would like to see eidolons being able to, in some actual, game-mechanic way, utilise weapons.
This trade-off for getting a simple weapon, might be allowed to have a d4 non-lethal secondary unarmed attack. (similar, but not with all the traits of fist, especially if you allow the eidolon to become disarmed) I'd actually allow the Eidolon to become disarmed, but re-manifesting the Eidolon, the old weapon will vanish (as well if it goes past a certain range) and the Eidolon will be re-manifested with its weapon.
I can remember being initially disappointed I couldn’t send my eidolon away and summon him back with his weapon. Thinking about it though, I came more and more to the feeling that it was far more flavorful for me to have to cart around his longspear and toss it back to him when I summoned him. Entirely my opinion only - and this being a “becoz wizards” universe, there isn’t really a compelling argument one way or another, in terms of verisimilitude, that one can convince oneself or another that it is the one true way or makes sense for Golarion (James Jacobs opinion or actual planar game rule/physics notwithstanding)
Ultimately, if Paizo publishes rules that allow Eidolons to use/wield actual weapons in combat that use actual game mechanics while also placing a caveat that weapons don’t go or come with the Eidolon at banishment or summon, then I’d be totally okay with that. It would make sense to me as a player. My character would be frustrated. I would be frustrated for my character, but not disappointed with the ruleset at all. (If the reverse was true, and actual game-mechanic conversant weapons the Eidolon could wield did make the journey then I’d be...bemused).
I'm not against giving eidolons the option of choosing (or mimicking) a weapon for their attacks. But there need to be some rules on:
1) weapon tier (simple/martial)
2) number of hands used
3) reach
4) ranged attacks (can I choose longbow? What about reload? What about the thrown trait)?
If these are handled in a simple and balanced way, I would sign for it.
Why make it complicated?
Give the eidolon the choice of 1 simple or martial weapon or an unarmed strike that was created by paizo to have certain traits (Ex a claw that has the grapple trait). That is not unbalanced.
Its also not unbalanced to give eidolons the basic unarmed weapon proficiency like all other creatures, in addition to proficiency in any 1 weapon.
Sadly, the unarmed strikes of the eidolons don't get active traits, such as grapple, that combine with their unarmed attacks.
The beast eidolon that I gave to Cirieo Thassaddin looks like a goat. Cirieo took Unarmed Evolution to give Fluffy's curved horns 1d8 attack the Shove trait. That would make the attack resemble a goat's butt attack, right? (The Bestiaries have no goats for comparison. The chimera's goat head lacks a butt attack.) No, I didn't think it through properly.
UNARMED EVOLUTION
EVOLUTION, SUMMONER
Your eidolon’s unarmed attack evolves and gains a special trait. Choose one of your eidolon’s starting melee unarmed attacks. The attack gains one of the following traits, which you choose when you gain this feat: disarm, nonlethal, shove, trip, or versatile. If you choose versatile, also choose whether it’s B, P, or S.
Shove
You can use this weapon to Shove with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Shove using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to take the effects of a failure instead of a critical failure.
The Shove trait adds the item bonus of the curved horns unarmed strike to the Shove action. The eidolon will have an item bonus, due to an unnamed rule on page 15.
Your eidolon benefits from the potency, striking, and property runes on your handwraps of mighty blows, and you can Invest a single magic weapon to share the benefits of those runes from the weapon as well, even though you normally can’t Invest a magic weapon.
That rule says, "Your eidolon benefits," rather than "Your eidolon's unarmed attacks benefit." Nevetheless, I think it means the unarmed attacks rather than the Athletics attack actions such as Shove and Trip. So if Cirieo invested a +1 weapon, then the shove trait on Fluffy's curved horns attack gives a Shove attack +1 to hit. Okay, that's a benefit. A striking rune on the invested weapon, however, won't help a non-damaging attack.
The curved horns lack reach, so Fluffy's shove does not gain that. The curved horns cannot be dropped, so Fluffy's shove does not gain the ability to drop the weapon to prevent a critical failure.
The player playing Fluffy never used the shove. The Shove trait is not worth taking the Unarmed Evolution feat. Only nonlethal and versatile traits granted by Unarmed Evolution can be used as part of a Strike.
@Mathmuse
You have a good point that one of the big benefits of the Disarm, Shave, and Trip traits on weapons are the ability to avoid the effect of a critical failure on that type of maneuver, by allowing the weapon to be dropped. So that weakens those traits significantly.
I admit, I was happy with the fact that each eidolon got a special ability, breath weapon, charge, or hallowed strike rider. So they got a taste of monster to them.
But yes, I think many monsters, especially the good ones have a selection of abilities, ranging from offensive to defensive. I have to admit I hadn't looked that closely what traits were being allowed with the feat, but these do seem overly limited and further weakened under the circumstances they get them.
I know someone had suggested having versatile energy attacks as an option that had been commented on as an interesting Idea. I hope they expand upon the types of traits that can be gotten. Especially in the sense of trying to help build up the concept of a more monstrous attack.
I'm curious if the intent was to make the Eidolon only really be equivalent to a martial if the Summoner spent its one act-together action to 'boost' the Eidolon. So they tried to limit the attacks to base simple type weapons as a result and then boosted the damage via the spell to make it more like martial damage expectation?
I have to admit I'm more surprised that the Eidolon's primary/standard attack isn't more equivalent to a martial weapon by default. I think I'd have expected it more like that. With what they lost being being having versatility than your standard martial character, because of them not necessarily being able to use any large selection of potential weapons.
I assume they were hesitant worried the caster portion of the summoner would prove too beneficial stacked on top of the martial, and maybe that is the case, assuming you believe the summoner should be able to buff the summoned, which makes sense.
I'm curious if the intent was to make the Eidolon only really be equivalent to a martial if the Summoner spent its one act-together action to 'boost' the Eidolon.
It would be a pretty huge coincidence if it was intended otherwise.
As it stands, the Summoner can trade its extra action from Act Together for Boost Eidolon, which pushes the Eidolon toward Martial DPR by way of a damage boost that is roughly equivalent (in function, if not total value) to Rage, Sneak Attack, Precision edge, etc.
Martial Damage, at the cost of your action economy advantage.
Fits together pretty logically IMO, though its pretty clear a lot of people don't like that dynamic - it seems to be a lot more tolerable to those whom don't see "Martial Damage" as a mandatory baseline for any time you make an attack.
The one thing I hate is is Built an eidolon focused summoner it utterly falls apart but the time apex items come into play.
I feel all my investment is wasted. But feel if I make an non eidolon focused summoner I'm punished at early levels.
The result is I'm unhappy with the performance of my concept at either early or late game. So feel I am punished for it. So I can't play concept's. I just have to meta game my summoner and retrain feats to what's just effective.
More than anything about the summoner. That makes me just not want to play one.
But if you look at the maths what boost eidolon does isn't so much an extra damage boost so much as it just increases eidolons weakened natural weapons to the level of martial weapons.
Case and point 1d8+2=6.5 =1d12.
So it's not so much a damage boost as a action patch for an intentional mechanical weakness.
It shouldn't be compare with barbarians 2 to 18 damage increase on top of d12 weapons, fighters +10% accuracy booston top of d12 weapons the 1d6-6d6 that rogues can get etc.
I kind of agree this is sort of how this feels. I originally thought the boost was their way of replicating the feel of the swashbuckler's panache, or the barbarian's rage, or thief backstab. But then realizing it seems more like the Eidolon is supposed to be around martial proficiency, but limited to simple weapons... and the boost ability instead of being equivalent to the extra's on one of the other martial classes, it instead just gets them to being close to the level of being able to use a martial weapon to do the damage, with their martial proficiency without an extra boost. (save maybe for their breath weapon, which is a strong feat)
The question is all the rest of that flavor worth being an otherwise bit more vanilla combatant mechanically. It puts much more of a requirement to plan to constantly use the Dragon Breath, Hallowed Strike/abilities. Since that seems like that is very specifically the thing you have over a martial. And maybe that is fair, but at first, I was seeing the Breath weapon as a great thing to use occasionally. But it looks like it needs to be something you'll plan to use a lot to make it worthwhile.
Makes me wish I'd gotten to go deeper into tests with it.