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No one wants to spend a class feat on movement options (monks get movement options for free).
First, friendly reminder that you don't speak for everyone - you can't say 'no one wants' when other people clearly do think that the appropriate cost for movement modes is class feats.
Second, what monk 'movement options' are you referring to here? They get extra move speed as a class feature, but that's definitely not an 'option' as its a core feature and doesn't give new movement, just more of the normal one.
Finally, you may not like Evolution Surge but that doesn't change the fact that its an extremely powerful part of the Summoner's kit that actually does the thing you're claiming you want otherwise - except that it does it in a balanced manner.
Its duration and cost are there to keep it balanced, while at the same time allowing an Eidolon to swim/climb/fly for 'free' instead of having to spend class resources on it.
Its something I've seen multiple people other than myself identify as fun. If you don't see it as useful, I'd suggest you aren't trying to use it in the context in which it was designed.
Certainly, I do think its worth remembering that its a direct attempt to port into 2E one of the most iconic spells from 1E, which did essentially the same thing - 1E evolution surge was most notable for being an extremely potent buff, that allowed eidolons to do things like grow wings on demand or add scent when the creator hadn't built it in by default. Its an example of an ability that directly connects the class back to 1E thematically, which is something a number of people (including yourself) have said you want.
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Evolution surge is not a fun ability. It was put in to fill holes, but let's face it... scent for 1 minute? Flight, climb etc for 1 minute? Its not a fun ability and it breaks a bit of Eidolon conception. What if my Eidolon is a giant Rabbit.. all of a sudden it magically sprouts wings? I dont like it. It does too much stuff for too little time and it doesn't fulfill Eidolon fantasy in making each one unique if they can all do it.
What I propose instead...
Making evolution surge a focus cantrip that ENHANCES a sensory or a movement speed they already have. Sense goes from 30 to 60 for for example. My flight speed is 10 feet longer, I run 10 feet longer, I climb faster, so on and so forth then build in an option at level 1/7/15 the ability to pick one sensory or movement option for your Eidolon that would make thematic sense from a 'list
No one wants to spend a class feat on movement options (monks get movement options for free).
This would help flesh out and differentiate the Eidolons a little better.
I might be a little confused here.
When I read the Evolution Surge ability, it says you pick ONE thing from the list, so your rabbit is only sprouting wings because you told it to? Why not just pick the option to go Huge instead to make it a super giant rabbit?
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Evolution surge is not a fun ability. It was put in to fill holes, but let's face it... scent for 1 minute? Flight, climb etc for 1 minute? Its not a fun ability and it breaks a bit of Eidolon conception. What if my Eidolon is a giant Rabbit.. all of a sudden it magically sprouts wings? I dont like it. It does too much stuff for too little time and it doesn't fulfill Eidolon fantasy in making each one unique if they can all do it.
What I propose instead...
Making evolution surge a focus cantrip that ENHANCES a sensory or a movement speed they already have. Sense goes from 30 to 60 for for example. My flight speed is 10 feet longer, I run 10 feet longer, I climb faster, so on and so forth then build in an option at level 1/7/15 the ability to pick one sensory or movement option for your Eidolon that would make thematic sense from a 'list
No one wants to spend a class feat on movement options (monks get movement options for free).
This would help flesh out and differentiate the Eidolons a little better.
I might be a little confused here.
When I read the Evolution Surge ability, it says you pick ONE thing from the list, so your rabbit is only sprouting wings because you told it to? Why not just pick the option to go Huge instead to make it a super giant rabbit?
It ruins Eidolon fantasy if they CAN do anything you want it to at any given time. You need a flyer? Your Eidolon can do that. A swimmer? Your Eidolon can do that. It destroys individuality and uniqueness across all Eidolons.
If I want an Eidolon that swims like a shark, I shouldn't be able to just give him wings to fly just because its convenient.
I completely agree. Having the option means it's something I have to actively ignore. I could accept it as an option, but having it default means I have to choose not to use it, which feels bad. I don't want to be tempted to make the eidolon something that isn't the concept I had in mind.
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Evolution surge is not a fun ability. It was put in to fill holes, but let's face it... scent for 1 minute? Flight, climb etc for 1 minute? Its not a fun ability and it breaks a bit of Eidolon conception. What if my Eidolon is a giant Rabbit.. all of a sudden it magically sprouts wings? I dont like it. It does too much stuff for too little time and it doesn't fulfill Eidolon fantasy in making each one unique if they can all do it.
What I propose instead...
Making evolution surge a focus cantrip that ENHANCES a sensory or a movement speed they already have. Sense goes from 30 to 60 for for example. My flight speed is 10 feet longer, I run 10 feet longer, I climb faster, so on and so forth then build in an option at level 1/7/15 the ability to pick one sensory or movement option for your Eidolon that would make thematic sense from a 'list
No one wants to spend a class feat on movement options (monks get movement options for free).
This would help flesh out and differentiate the Eidolons a little better.
I might be a little confused here.
When I read the Evolution Surge ability, it says you pick ONE thing from the list, so your rabbit is only sprouting wings because you told it to? Why not just pick the option to go Huge instead to make it a super giant rabbit?
It ruins Eidolon fantasy if they CAN do anything you want it to at any given time. You need a flyer? Your Eidolon can do that. A swimmer? Your Eidolon can do that. It destroys individuality and uniqueness across all Eidolons.
If I want an Eidolon that swims like a shark, I shouldn't be able to just give him wings to fly just because its convenient.
I guess I just disagree here, you're not sacrificing any sort of concept of the eidolon for this. It's a temporary buff that changes something for a temporary mechanical benefit. Just like using the fly spell on myself grants me temporary fly speed, I can use this on my eidolon to give it a temporary fly speed. It doesn't even say the eidolon has to grow wings! It just gains a fly speed, so the appearance can remain exactly the same and it's just a magical flying thing for a moment, something that is pretty common in this game.
It's like deciding what spells to cast based on the situation. Do we need to cross a large gap? I'll cast fly. Barbarian running up front and beating up the enemies? I'll throw an enlarge over there.
You are never required to put wings on your shark or rabbit, just like I'm never required to pick up the Fly spell.
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I do not like the idea my Eidolon can do anything given what needs to occur. I like having restrictions. Restrictions 1) allows Eidolons to focus and do one thing better than others and 2) allows more varied and unique Eidolons.
The class needs flexibility. Being forced to lock your Eidolon into one thing will result in a class that only excels if that one thing comes up, which is entirely outside of the players control.
Giving the class a potent, variable spell essentially greatly increases both the Eidolon's capabilities and their virtual spellcasting potency.
After all, you don't really need spells like Fly the same way other casters do - you have a free, focus version of the spell that works on your eidolon by default.
Removing or nerfing Evolution Surge is gutting one of the things that makes the class good.
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Not like charge, but provides scent, flight, burrow, 10 feet movement, etc.
I mean the Barbarian gets Darkvision and Scent from a Class Feat
And if you want to get technical, Class Feats generally include archetypes, and the Viking Dedication has movement enhancements specifically for shallow water terrain and such.
I don’t like evolution surge that much either at the moment, but it’s not an outrageous idea to have it.
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I mean the Barbarian gets Darkvision and Scent from a Class Feat
Barbarians also get Fast Movement from a class feat, which literally adds 10 feet, which also adds to your point.
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To take a line from a movie, "If everyone is special, no one is."
That's a line spoken by the villain, who is in the process of fallaciously equating being 'special' with having 'power', while condemning those who aren't special/don't have power as being weak.
It does not help your case.
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He has a point though, still. If everyone can play basketball like Michael Jordan, then no one would be paid millions to play because no one is special.
No, he's specifically missing the point.
If everyone could be Michael Jordan, that would be awesome.
The tragedy of the character is that if Syndrome had chosen to use his knowledge and power to make the world a better place, in the service of others, he would have been a Hero.
You know, like the heroes of the movie chose to do.
Instead, he chose to see their power as what made them special, instead of what they chose to do with it.
Seriously, this isn't especially deep - but that line by Syndrome is one of the most disturbingly quoted lined by people who don't understand why he's the villain.
The point isn't that you diminish 'special' people by lifting others up.
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He has a point though, still. If everyone can play basketball like Michael Jordan, then no one would be paid millions to play because no one is special.To take a line from a movie, "If everyone is special, no one is."
That's a line spoken by the villain, who is in the process of fallaciously equating being 'special' with having 'power', while condemning those who aren't special/don't have power as being weak.
It does not help your case.
Which sort of misses the context of the quote. Syndrome sees superpowers as a means to attain status and the image of a hero, while actual supers use their powers in service and gain heroic status as a result. Syndrome looks at the status of supers and assumes it's a direct result of using their powers, rather than the motivations behind the actions they take with those powers.
Michael Jordan being uncommonly excellent at basketball (a skill useful for making money and entertaining the public) is not the same as someone having superpowers (a skill used to fight crime and save lives).
That aside...
I can see that Evolution Surge doesn't necessarily fit everyone's fantasy with the class. The issue is that if it's made optional by making it a feat, the abilities it provides in the long run are too powerful for it to be a low level feat, gating it behind higher levels means its not available earlier on when it's needed more, and having two feats which upgrade it is a huge downgrade for the class overall since it takes up valuable feat space that could be spent on actual evolutions.
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Um in this game it applies though. You don't want to have characters too powerful and too capable, it's not a fun game for some people when everything's broken.
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He has a point though, still. If everyone can play basketball like Michael Jordan, then no one would be paid millions to play because no one is special.To take a line from a movie, "If everyone is special, no one is."
That's a line spoken by the villain, who is in the process of fallaciously equating being 'special' with having 'power', while condemning those who aren't special/don't have power as being weak.
It does not help your case.
Which sort of misses the context of the quote. Syndrome sees superpowers as a means to attain status and the image of a hero, while actual supers use their powers in service and gain heroic status as a result. Syndrome looks at the status of supers and assumes it's a direct result of using their powers, rather than the motivations behind the actions they take with those powers.
Michael Jordan being uncommonly excellent at basketball (a skill useful for making money and entertaining the public) is not the same as someone having superpowers (a skill used to fight crime and save lives).
That aside...
I can see that Evolution Surge doesn't necessarily fit everyone's fantasy with the class. The issue is that if it's made optional by making it a feat, the abilities it provides in the long run are too powerful for it to be a low level feat, gating it behind higher levels means its not available earlier on when it's needed more, and having two feats which upgrade it is a huge downgrade for the class overall since it takes up valuable feat space that could be spent on actual evolutions.
It's not too powerful for a feat, compare it to the Ranger Feat 4, Animal Feature.
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I just want individualism and uniqueness that I can't change on a moments notice.
When capabilities are equal, uniqueness comes from what you do, and how you choose to do it.
IE, make your own uniqueness that has nothing to do with capabilities.
Not everyone equates uniqueness with what you're capable of doing.
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I think "permanent or bust" would be unfortunate. I like the flexibility of solving some problems as they come up. I like that we get something like Evolution Surge "for free" (i.e. as part of the class budget, rather than a feat). Plus, if you don't like a focus spell, it's generally pretty easy to get some other focus spell you do like and just spend your focus on that instead.
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All the arguments against sound like excellent reasons for specific people not to use a specific ability. This is certainly your option.
Why take that ability from others?
(I can think of several focus spells I'd rather not have/use from other classes, yet understand they're part of the package.)
For most players, Evolution Surge falls in that "must-have" category which means it should be part of the chassis, even if there are some players it won't appeal to.
Also as a feat, it'd be available to MCD Summoners which is an important aspect of balance.
Also, as noted, the ability doesn't have to morph your Eidelon. It could represent a pool of minor spell tricks that use the same battery. It is a power of the Summoner after all, not an ability of the Eidelon to alter itself.
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I think "permanent or bust" would be unfortunate. I like the flexibility of solving some problems as they come up. I like that we get something like Evolution Surge "for free" (i.e. as part of the class budget, rather than a feat). Plus, if you don't like a focus spell, it's generally pretty easy to get some other focus spell you do like and just spend your focus on that instead.At the cost of uniqueness though?
I like uniqueness too. Fortunately, I feel Evolution Surge contributes to uniqueness. Not between eidolons, but in distinguishing Summoner/eidolon from other classes/companions. That's not a huge selling point on its own, but I feel it balances out its impact on the uniqueness of two different eidolons.
To me it seems that a lot of things in 1e that were permanent buffs (or at least very long lasting) are made to only be very short buffs in 2e. I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of that is, I guess just another way to keep casters in check, but it's definitely something I've noticed. While its still in playtest mode, look at magus and its magus potency - it only lasts a minute where in 1e similar effects were constant.
So I think that evolution surge is being looked at as a bandaid solution for a character that wanted an eidolon with whatever kind of movement, without it being constant. Like if your eidolon was a griffon, it can fly at early levels with help from the summoner, otherwise it wouldn't be able to until 16th level. Paizo is again steering away from 1e's constant buffs. In some ways it's a good balancing factor, other times it's a little annoying and brings the game down to a slog (has it been ten minutes?).
Personally I like evolution surge. It could be made into a feat, like rangers animal aspect, pretty easily.
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To me it seems that a lot of things in 1e that were permanent buffs (or at least very long lasting) are made to only be very short buffs in 2e. I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of that is, I guess just another way to keep casters in check, but it's definitely something I've noticed. While its still in playtest mode, look at magus and its magus potency - it only lasts a minute where in 1e similar effects were constant.
So I think that evolution surge is being looked at as a bandaid solution for a character that wanted an eidolon with whatever kind of movement, without it being constant. Like if your eidolon was a griffon, it can fly at early levels with help from the summoner, otherwise it wouldn't be able to until 16th level. Paizo is again steering away from 1e's constant buffs. In some ways it's a good balancing factor, other times it's a little annoying and brings the game down to a slog (has it been ten minutes?).
Personally I like evolution surge. It could be made into a feat, like rangers animal aspect, pretty easily.
The thing I would be concerned about if it were to become a feat is that it provides so much of an advantage that it simply becomes a feat tax. It would have to be weakened. Maybe it would have to give a lesser version of a permanent feat (such as having Alacritous Evolution changed to give a permanent +20 to speed, while Evolution Surge gives a temporary +10) and not be able to stack with permanent abilities/boosts granted by feats. If it were to become a feat as it is, you would be hard pressed not to take it.
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Verzen: *spends entire playtest demanding Evolution Point system back*
Also Verzen:
I just want individualism and uniqueness that I can't change on a moments notice.
Wanting a point-based system and having a unique eidolon that cannot be changed constantly isn't a contradiction. While I wouldn't like a system like this, a point-based system where once a point is spent it can never be changed would fulfill both those statements. It would be annoying because I wouldn't be able to recreate my first PF1e summoner, but I can't do that with the current playtest summoner either (my first summoner was a "devil summoner" who would make temporary contracts with progressively more powerful devils, mechanically done by rebuilding the eidolon to match a different type of devil as closely as possible every few levels).
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How is "your eidolon gains temporary flight because you used a focus spell" different from "your eidolon gains temporary flight because you cast 'fly' on it"?
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How is "your eidolon gains temporary flight because you used a focus spell" different from "your eidolon gains temporary flight because you cast 'fly' on it"?the fly spell requires thinking ahead. having the spell and memorizing it and only having 4 spell slots
So you don't like Surge cause it's useful?
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All the arguments against sound like excellent reasons for specific people not to use a specific ability. This is certainly your option.
Why take that ability from others?
(I can think of several focus spells I'd rather not have/use from other classes, yet understand they're part of the package.)For most players, Evolution Surge falls in that "must-have" category which means it should be part of the chassis, even if there are some players it won't appeal to.
Also as a feat, it'd be available to MCD Summoners which is an important aspect of balance.Also, as noted, the ability doesn't have to morph your Eidelon. It could represent a pool of minor spell tricks that use the same battery. It is a power of the Summoner after all, not an ability of the Eidelon to alter itself.
The problem I have with evolution surge is
1. not only is it a must have it becomes a must use just like boost eidolon
2. still a spell and can't be used in synergist
3. there are no alternate choices
4. it gets rid of the creative problem solving and the FFUUUNNN. i.e. an underwater passage into some ruins. just give your "fire beast" eidolon a swim speed
I don't consider "oh, you're not allowed to play in this part of the adventure" fun by any stretch of the imagination.
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How is "your eidolon gains temporary flight because you used a focus spell" different from "your eidolon gains temporary flight because you cast 'fly' on it"?the fly spell requires thinking ahead. having the spell and memorizing it and only having 4 spell slots
So it's okay to give your eidolon flight in one way because it's inconvenient to do so, but not okay to do it in a more convenient fashion?
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The evolution system was a set creation tool. It did not allow me to gain flight at a moments notice unless I used evolution surge. The Eidolons were still unique unlike now.
You didn't have to use it then and you don't have to use it now.
Also you could change out EPs every level so...
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We have also to remember that a big feature of this 2e edition is the retraining.
I mean, I consider the reliance on (and benefits of) retraining a huge flaw in the system.
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I mean, I consider the reliance on (and benefits of) retraining a huge flaw in the system.
Yeah retraining has a cost associated to it, even if minor, and it speaks volumes that it would be considered in any way the optimal way to play the class instead of a solution to a change of heart of your character conception.
Same goes for the idea that the Summoner should multiclass, you can make an argument for any class benefiting from multiclassing but we're here to talk about the playtest Summoner and the material found in the playtest; not try to band-aid issues by using other classes' material.
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Evolution Surge seems like a way to incorporate some of the support spells summoner's would cast on their eidolons without giving them spell slots, but much more limited. It's free spell buffs. No need to get rid of it. It is a part of the PF1 summoner repertoire. Just not as powerful like everything else with most classes.