| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Using imagination with Pathfinder mechanics is necessary because the mechanics oversimply real-life actions.
For example, movement in Pathfinder has no momentum, but sometimes momentum matters in real combat. Pathfinder 1st Edition has a Charge special attack that gives a +2 bonus on the attack roll and a –2 penalty to AC to represent the momentum of charging an opponent. Pathfinder 2nd Edition dropped the bonuses in its Sudden Charge feat, but it still represents momentum in other places with a phrase like, "if you moved at least 10 feet." The Jousting trait on Lance represents the momentum of the horse during jousting. The 10-foot Stride on Long Jump represents momentum. The extra damage on the Rhinoceros Charge represents momentum.
Pathfinder 2nd Edition added details to represent climbing to the Climb action. For example, a climbing character needs both hands free and is flat-footed. Those details get in the way of pretending that climbing is flying. Climb speed, which the playtest eidolon can acquire at 6th level with Climbing Evolution, has fewer details that represent climbing, like no longer requiring two hands nor adding flat-footed, so it is easier to pretend that it is flying instead of climbing.
The summoner player, when casting Evolution Surge to give his eidolon a Climb speed or a Swim speed, can say aloud, "I cast Evolution Surge to make my eidolon's wings strong enough to fly." Maybe right before that sentence the player explained to the GM, "I am going to give my eidolon a swim speed to cross the river, but I want to pretend he is flying above the river." And when the GM decides that the eidolon was swept 10 feet down the river while swimming, he can say, "Your eidolon accidentally dipped into the water for a moment and was swept down the river 10 feet."
Sometimes the roleplaying won't work, when neither a Climb speed nor a Swim speed can give the effect expected for a Fly speed. Then the summoner's player can shrug and say, "Sometimes the flying magic doesn't work."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The issue is that the mere existence of this alternative description AT ALL (even if only employed in a situation where it doesn't matter) begs the question of why it can't be employed in other circumstances where the narrative is the same, but the mechanics behind the action have to be different.
No, it does not.
You're playing a tabletop roleplaying game, which is a narrative collaborative illusion participated in by everyone at the table.
Questions are only raised if someone raises them - and since the group is collaborating, the issue is as easy to avoid as a group decision not to cause problems and just roll with it.
So long as the rules are not violated at any point and the narrative makes sense as it happens, theres no issue.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wonder if you can make evolution surge and boost eidolon interact in a way with the eidolon that improves it in a way that seems type appropriate. Even the defensive ability might be type appropriate.
Then evolution surge can be seen as evolving your eidolon into a more perfect form of its creature type. You evolution surge a dragon and it gains dragon wings to fly and energy resistance.
You boost eidolon your dragon and it's bite becomes infused with the energy of its dragon type.
Something like that.
I wonder if you can make evolution surge and boost eidolon interact in a way with the eidolon that improves it in a way that seems type appropriate. Even the defensive ability might be type appropriate.
Then evolution surge can be seen as evolving your eidolon into a more perfect form of its creature type. You evolution surge a dragon and it gains dragon wings to fly and energy resistance.
You boost eidolon your dragon and it's bite becomes infused with the energy of its dragon type.
Something like that.
Sounds nice, but complicated. You'd have to write in a blurb about each eidolon type into the focus spell. Which given how many types were hyped in the playtest, that could get wordy.
Edit: Though I would like to see more personalized type interactions like that if they could squeeze it in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You boost eidolon your dragon and it's bite becomes infused with the energy of its dragon type.
Something like that.
I totally advocated a while back for allowing Boost Eidolon to have upgrades that allow you to choose extra damage types. Including elemental ;)
For Evolution surge, I'm likely to self enforce a preference for Surges that are easily reflected and justified by the Eidolon in question. Or at least finding the most appropriate justification for the evolution in question...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Evolution Surge should be giving you an evolution (1-2 point/slot evolution). Not some list of option, this is just another point where the mechanics does not meet the aesthetics.
Also if Flight as a focus spell for 1 minute with a 10 minute break is fine, why cant the Eidolon get a flight evolution that works the same way? Heck it could be a weak flight if full speed is a problem.
Because why would you need to, if said focus spell is fine?
Also what's the difference between evolution surge letting you choose from a list of options and giving you a point to spend..... on a list of options?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To get back to the point of the thread (mechanics Vs imagination, particularly in regards to the summoner), I actually really disliked the eidolon attack stuff at first. It felt horrible to me that different attacks didn't have any sort of mechanical feedback - that a dragon's bite and an angel's fist and a spirit's sword were all the same thing.
But after ruminating on it for a while, I started to really like it. It gives an easy way to allow for different types of eidolon, without having to spend evolutions on some specific type of attack like a tentacle or whatever.
Like yeah, your imagination has to do some heavy lifting with the eidolon, as the mechanics take a backseat somewhat, but I think that actually opens up more possibilities with the eidolon than if you had to specifically spend evolutions on aesthetic stuff.
(Also, for fear of kicking the hornets' nest, I totally agree that you could flavour a climb speed as some sort of limited flight, as long as you stick to the rules)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To get back to the point of the thread (mechanics Vs imagination, particularly in regards to the summoner), I actually really disliked the eidolon attack stuff at first. It felt horrible to me that different attacks didn't have any sort of mechanical feedback - that a dragon's bite and an angel's fist and a spirit's sword were all the same thing.
But after ruminating on it for a while, I started to really like it. It gives an easy way to allow for different types of eidolon, without having to spend evolutions on some specific type of attack like a tentacle or whatever.
With the APG summoner, my first game was as a synthesist summoner as a dragon. I was in a game with a synthesist summoner as an angel. Our builds were practically identical; claws were the best choice so he just took claws on the angel and made up something. So, this is better from my experience.
As compared to Unchained (which gave specific natural attacks or weapon use), I don't have a strong preference. Animal instinct Barbarian has different weapons, and it's a little annoying that some of the animals just feel a bit better. Fortunately, it's not a big enough deal to be an issue if you want to play a particular animal.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
No special defenses of a monster.
So was I just hallucinating when I read the level 14 feats "resilient evolution" and "spellguard evolution"?
No special attacks of a monster.
No special abilities of a monster.
No special actiona of a monster.
Dragon eidolons get a breath attack from first level, and draconic frenzy from 7th (if I remember my numbers right), and I'd consider those the most iconic of dragon attacks/abilities/actions. That is, in addition to flight, which is available through several methods, including the focus spell that you get for free with the class
Beast eidolons get a bunch of actions to use.
Just because you don't get everything you want at first level, doesn't mean it's not there.
No special defenses of a monster.
So was I just hallucinating when I read the level 14 feats "resilient evolution" and "spellguard evolution"?
No special attacks of a monster.
No special abilities of a monster.
No special actiona of a monster.
Dragon eidolons get a breath attack from first level, and draconic frenzy from 7th (if I remember my numbers right), and I'd consider those the most iconic of dragon attacks/abilities/actions. That is, in addition to flight, which is available through several methods, including the focus spell that you get for free with the class
Beast eidolons get a bunch of actions to use.
Just because you don't get everything you want at first level, doesn't mean it's not there.
I for one do not want to wait to level 14 to make me feel like I am controlling a monster. I've played PF for over a decade now. Guess how many times I've played above 12th level? 0. I have 1 level 11 character in PFS. Anything 12th level and above might as well not exist.
Kobolds get a breath attack at first level, too.
Draconic frenzy is just 3 attacks for the price of 2 actions.
If things are too high of level to get, they might as well NOT be there. That's the issue. There needs to be a bit of front loading.
I do actually agree that the playtest Summoner could use some more support up front.
But I think there needs to be some curbing of expectation. "I wanna play an Angelic Aasimar Champion with glowing wings of divine light that'll let me fly!" Great, you can play that. At level 17. "I wanna play a Giant Barbarian who's Huge and towers above my companions mounts!" Cool, you can play that. At level 12.
Your character's ideal concept is never going to be achievable at low levels, let alone level one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your character's ideal concept is never going to be achievable at low levels, let alone level one.
This is true, but I hope as many concepts can be accommodated as possible as low as possible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No one is asking for it to be at level 1.
The problem is that right now only the Dragon Eidolon gets a breath attack and must wait until high level. I want Eidolons to be able to pick their evolution and Breath Weapons shouldn't locked to just one Eidolon, much less to level 14+. A Draconic Barbarian is a breath attack at level 6. There is not reason the Eidolon should wait post level 10 to get its own as a possible option when its an actual monster.
(So I'm just going to point out that the dragon eidolon gets breath weapon at level one, not 14+.)
With that outta way, you are correct that the Dragon Instinct Barbarian does get a breath weapon at level six. No other type of Barbarian can take it. A Dragon eidolon gets a breath weapon at level one. No other type of eidolon can take it. Your level of customization is the same as every other class.
Which only seems like a huge downgrade because the Chained Summoner had so much more customization then every other class.
Your character's ideal concept is never going to be achievable at low levels, let alone level one.This is true, but I hope as many concepts can be accommodated as possible as low as possible.
I agree with this, within reason.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Both aasimar champions and giant barbarians at least have that angelic or giant FEEL at level 1 though.. unlike Eidolons.
No special defenses of a monster.
So was I just hallucinating when I read the level 14 feats "resilient evolution" and "spellguard evolution"?
No special attacks of a monster.
No special abilities of a monster.
No special actiona of a monster.
Dragon eidolons get a breath attack from first level, and draconic frenzy from 7th (if I remember my numbers right), and I'd consider those the most iconic of dragon attacks/abilities/actions. That is, in addition to flight, which is available through several methods, including the focus spell that you get for free with the class
Beast eidolons get a bunch of actions to use.
Just because you don't get everything you want at first level, doesn't mean it's not there.
I for one do not want to wait to level 14 to make me feel like I am controlling a monster. I've played PF for over a decade now. Guess how many times I've played above 12th level? 0. I have 1 level 11 character in PFS. Anything 12th level and above might as well not exist.
Kobolds get a breath attack at first level, too.
Draconic frenzy is just 3 attacks for the price of 2 actions.
If things are too high of level to get, they might as well NOT be there. That's the issue. There needs to be a bit of front loading.
I do actually agree that the playtest Summoner could use some more support up front.
But I think there needs to be some curbing of expectation. "I wanna play an Angelic Aasimar Champion with glowing wings of divine light that'll let me fly!" Great, you can play that. At level 17. "I wanna play a Giant Barbarian who's Huge and towers above my companions mounts!" Cool, you can play that. At level 12.
Your character's ideal concept is never going to be achievable at low levels, let alone level one.
No they don’t.
No. I dont consider good damage 1 per attack to be good enough. In 99% of cases that ability is worthless.
All Fiends except for the yeth hound and Fire and Frost Yais have weaknesses to good. Most within the 10 to 15 point range. If this was first edition it would be like having Demon, Devil, and Daemon bane on your eidolons fists... at first level.
Edit: And yes I know I'm digressing.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh? I was unaware giant barbarian didn't deal more physical damage during their rage at level 1.
I was unaware aasimar at level 1 can select their own aasimar feat and get aasimar traits.
No. I dont consider good damage 1 per attack to be good enough. In 99% of cases that ability is worthless.
Aasimar can't fly at level one and Giant Barbarians can't become Huge at level one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both aasimar champions and giant barbarians at least have that angelic or giant FEEL at level 1 though.. unlike Eidolons.
If things are too high of level to get, they might as well NOT be there. That's the issue. There needs to be a bit of front loading.I do actually agree that the playtest Summoner could use some more support up front.
But I think there needs to be some curbing of expectation. "I wanna play an Angelic Aasimar Champion with glowing wings of divine light that'll let me fly!" Great, you can play that. At level 17. "I wanna play a Giant Barbarian who's Huge and towers above my companions mounts!" Cool, you can play that. At level 12.
Your character's ideal concept is never going to be achievable at low levels, let alone level one.
As for nailing that draconic, angelic, ghostly etc. FEEL at first level, I think that's both subjective (Point; I'm largely okay with them) and more a matter of just needing some tweaking rather than overhauling.
Edit: With carrying the assumption that your Eidolon will grow into its full concept later down the line.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As for nailing that draconic, angelic, ghostly etc. FEEL at first level, I think that's both subjective (Point; I'm largely okay with them) and more a matter of just needing some tweaking rather than overhauling.
Edit: With carrying the assumption that your Eidolon will grow into its full concept later down the line.
I'm personally not sure what more you can (reasonably) do for a Good Outsider at level 1 than letting it do a point of Good damage (which is both solid a passive, and triggers weaknesses).
Likewise for Breath Weapons for Dragons, or a Pounce ability for Beasts.
The only playtest Eidolon base type without an extremely iconic ability out the gates is a Phantom - and the ability it does get isn't bad, it's just not quite as intuitive and obvious as the others. A Reaction similar to the gnome that phases out of existence which provides resistance to damage (with the restrictions of a Reaction, within reason, and bypassed by ghost touch) may be more appropriate and flavorful.
But in general, 3 of the 4 base types are already quite in line with what they should be - at first level.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Aasimar can't fly at level one and Giant Barbarians can't become Huge at level one.Oh? I was unaware giant barbarian didn't deal more physical damage during their rage at level 1.
I was unaware aasimar at level 1 can select their own aasimar feat and get aasimar traits.
No. I dont consider good damage 1 per attack to be good enough. In 99% of cases that ability is worthless.
Missed the point by a mile.
Not really, Aasimar doesn't have more of a "feel" over Celestial Eidolon at 1st level and all Giant barbarian can do is wield slightly bigger weapon. There's not much there for any of them that low of a level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's useless in most cases, but when it works, it REALLY works. As awesome as it is when demons are around, how often are they?
That just kinda sounds like a decent amount of the divine spell list to me.
Being very potent in select circumstances is just as good as somewhat potent all the time, assuming you are in those situations at least sometimes.
Maybe just leave angel eidolon for when it's abilities will be useful, in much the same way you wouldn't play an investigator to run something like tomb of annihiliation or whatever.
No. I dont consider good damage 1 per attack to be good enough. In 99% of cases that ability is worthless.All Fiends except for the yeth hound and Fire and Frost Yais have weaknesses to good. Most within the 10 to 15 point range. If this was first edition it would be like having Demon, Devil, and Daemon bane on your eidolons fists... at first level.
Edit: And yes I know I'm digressing.
Yeah but how often will you come into contact with demons? Not too often
It's useless in most cases, but when it works, it REALLY works. As awesome as it is when demons are around, how often are they?
In the campaigns I play in? Around every corner. :( /s
Now do I think such a campaign dependent ability is appropriate for a base selection out of a base book? Not really.
I think it could be moved up to a first level evolution feat and the angel could be given something else.
If they did make it a feat they could gate it off behind the divine spell lists and customize it for each of the types. So a fiend could do a point of evil damage etc.
I'm just pointing out that it's not a bad ability on its face.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No. I dont consider good damage 1 per attack to be good enough. In 99% of cases that ability is worthless.All Fiends except for the yeth hound and Fire and Frost Yais have weaknesses to good. Most within the 10 to 15 point range. If this was first edition it would be like having Demon, Devil, and Daemon bane on your eidolons fists... at first level.
Edit: And yes I know I'm digressing.
Yeah but how often will you come into contact with demons? Not too often
It's useless in most cases, but when it works, it REALLY works. As awesome as it is when demons are around, how often are they?In the campaigns I play in? Around every corner. :( /s
Now do I think such a campaign dependent ability is appropriate for a base selection out of a base book? Not really.
I think it could be moved up to a first level evolution feat and the angel could be given something else.
If they did make it a feat they could gate it off behind the divine spell lists and customize it for each of the types. So a fiend could do a point of evil damage etc.I'm just pointing out that it's not a bad ability on its face.
Based on the three initial APs released so far for 2E - I've run one, am running a second, and am playing in a 3rd - the Good damage on an Eidolon is a fantastic ability in all published content.
Players should talk to their GMs. If the campaign in question is going to deviate significantly from what is established in published works because its homebrew, then the GM should be willing to work with the player either to ensure the Eidolons ability will be relevant (or at the very least, replace it).
The default campaign model tends to favor Good Damage in general though.
Giant Barbarians can't become Huge at level one.
There are plenty of Large Giants and there where even medium sized giants in PF1 [ogrekin and sewer trolls off hand].