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You can agree that you don't want this in your game while also acknowledging that other people might. As I said up thread, this isn't something that I would personally do, but there's nothing wrong with it.
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I would prefer players weren't encouraged to add wings to their eidolons ascethetic because then it wouldn't be an issue that they couldn't fly. A simple bit of text saying that eidolon dragons & angels, dragon typically don't have wings as it something they grow in later development would suffice.Agree, just say that there wings are underdeveloped.
It would be nice if they gave them natural upgrades to their movement fitting for what they are as part of the eidolon.
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It would be nice if they gave them natural upgrades to their movement fitting for what they are as part of the eidolon.I would prefer players weren't encouraged to add wings to their eidolons ascethetic because then it wouldn't be an issue that they couldn't fly. A simple bit of text saying that eidolon dragons & angels, dragon typically don't have wings as it something they grow in later development would suffice.Agree, just say that there wings are underdeveloped.
Like, I don’t know, by spending a feat to give them flight at the appropriate level or using a focus spell to simulate a temporary enhancement or effort before that?
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using a focus spell to simulate a temporary enhancement or effort before that?
Well, as I could use said focus spell to make a pet rock fly, it's not really doing ANYTHING different for a winged creature.
by spending a feat to give them flight at the appropriate level
I'm pretty sure he was talking about something like a scaling feat so that the winged creature could show some difference between it and non-winged creatures before it gets full flight. For instance, a tieflings Vestigial Wings in PF2 gave you a +4 racial bonus on Fly skill checks: nothing exciting but it showed a difference for having them. So something like that, say a bonus on your Maneuver in Flight to start and a few level later maybe a limited cat-fall type ability and at higher level flight.
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I'm pretty sure he was talking about something like a scaling feat so that the winged creature could show some difference between it and non-winged creatures before it gets full flight. For instance, a tieflings Vestigial Wings in PF2 gave you a +4 racial bonus on Fly skill checks: nothing exciting but it showed a difference for having them. So something like that, say a bonus on your Maneuver in Flight to start and a few level later maybe a limited cat-fall type ability and at higher level flight.
I suggested elsewhere a Feat that gave you access to the Arrest a Fall reaction even without a Fly Speed and a couple skill feats (Quick Leap) that aided aerial mobility and a circumstance bonus to Athletics/Acrobatics to enhance aerial mobility, which wouldn't become completely redundant with proper Flight down the road and would fit directly with wings.
This is a discussion though where people seems to ignore that where page space is precious, the class already gets Flying built in at the earliest reasonable levels for each variant of proper flying (spell, focus spell, permanent feat).
When we want to maximize the number of feats and abilities the class gets, a lower level 'wings' feat like this may be seen as completely redundant when efficiency is a priority.
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Or a Focus Spell with a lot of other attributes baked in.
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If the reason Fly is being balanced that way is because its on a feat, then dont make it a feat and look at things like familiar options.
You know like Eidolons are supposed to already have.
No one (and by no one, I mean things that are essentially player characters and not feat trees) gets permanent Flight without spending character resources.
And character resources just added for free like 'familiar abilities for eidolons' don't count as an expenditure.
Anything is possible with the power of imagination!
LOL This just reminds me of the mayor of imaginationland singing the imagination song. ;)
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Like, I don’t know, by spending a feat to give them flight at the appropriate level or using a focus spell to simulate a temporary enhancement or effort before that?It would be nice if they gave them natural upgrades to their movement fitting for what they are as part of the eidolon.I would prefer players weren't encouraged to add wings to their eidolons ascethetic because then it wouldn't be an issue that they couldn't fly. A simple bit of text saying that eidolon dragons & angels, dragon typically don't have wings as it something they grow in later development would suffice.Agree, just say that there wings are underdeveloped.
I mean, like, a bird animal companion can fly naturally and wolf can move at 40 feet without needing a feat because you know, birds can, you know, fly, and wolves can you know, run faster than normal humans.
I was thinking that maybe dragons and angels in their fantasy forms can usually fly without needing a generic feat or focus spell. And beast eidolons should run faster than normal humanoids. And phantoms can float on air. I was thinking more like that without a focus spell or a lvl 16 generic feat.
For example PFS the group was to take a wagon of goods from one town to different town. I as an "intelligent" person wanted my character to use craft to convert the wagon into a Hussite war wagon (a low cost easy upgrade that fits in the tech level of pathfinder) but because such a change would reduce the risks and difficulty and war wagons where and are still not in the rules this action was denied i.e. didn't provide the arrow slit cover it should have but was able to take its appearance.
That's not how PFS 2e should work. Take a look at the creative solutions section. At worst he should have given the table a bonus unless it's the season one scenario I'm thinking of in which case disguising the magic item carrying wagon wouldn't do a dang bit of good.
It was the item in he wagon that was attracting attention. There was no way any amount of disguising would prevent encounters, or at least as far as I know of the scenario.
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Like, I don’t know, by spending a feat to give them flight at the appropriate level or using a focus spell to simulate a temporary enhancement or effort before that?It would be nice if they gave them natural upgrades to their movement fitting for what they are as part of the eidolon.I would prefer players weren't encouraged to add wings to their eidolons ascethetic because then it wouldn't be an issue that they couldn't fly. A simple bit of text saying that eidolon dragons & angels, dragon typically don't have wings as it something they grow in later development would suffice.Agree, just say that there wings are underdeveloped.I mean, like, a bird animal companion can fly naturally and wolf can move at 40 feet without needing a feat because you know, birds can, you know, fly, and wolves can you know, run faster than normal humans.
I was thinking that maybe dragons and angels in their fantasy forms can usually fly without needing a generic feat or focus spell. And beast eidolons should run faster than normal humanoids. And phantoms can float on air. I was thinking more like that without a focus spell or a lvl 16 generic feat.
PCs are humanoids, or things with similar capabilities. There is a reason why dragons aren't a valid ancestry.
I'm pretty sure that if Paizo or some third party actually makes a dragon ancestry, it won't have flight and immunities at level 1, and such things will have to be bought with feats instead. Feats that are gated by level.By the way, I'm totally up with scaling flight for eidolons, as long as what it grants at a given level is balanced with what the other players can do. But I don't agree with the "It looks like a creature that can fly, so it must fly too" argument.
A reskin should not change the mechanics nor should it change the narrative so much that it completely contradicts the mechanics.
At which point the player - in cooperation with the narrative, the game and the GM - should choose not to use whatever the item is for reskinning.
People were complaining about Wings not having representation at lower levels.
I pointed out that from level 5, Summoners have extreme freedom to navigate vertical obstacles by granting a climb speed on demand, which could easily be attributed to wings/flying in those cases.
People making this more complicated than it needs to be - and pointing out the side cases where this isn't true - are complicating a simple solution to the vast majority of cases that exist when you need to go from the bottom to the top of an obstacle or vice versa.
If I have an Angel eidolon, there is far less cognitive dissonance to me to say that it uses its wings to assist in getting up or down an obstacles than saying that it spontaneously manifests spider man powers, gecko-hands, or adhesive slime or some other thing to gain a climb speed. Situational, limited flight makes WAY more sense in any scenario where it applies and doesn't cause rules complications.
Seriously, there's a lot of responsibility for the player implied to justify and work around the potential issues... but its not exactly difficult to do so.
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I don't understand why using your climb speed (and appropriate rules) to climb up a wall, and describing that flapping your wings is helping with that, is meeting so much hostility to deserve dozens of posts.
