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Idk, same reason that people keep reading me wanting customization as somehow wanting more power when I have never stated that?
Mechanical customization is power.
So long as the player can choose between two gameplay options that have even situationally different power levels, the player can choose one option that is situationally better than another. The more of these choices you can make, and especially the more freedom you have in these choices, the more net power you can build into your character.
This is the basis of how and why point buy characrer build systems work, and why they're so min-maxy.
The Summoner currently has almost infinite narrative customization, which is still customization- it just does NOT come with more power.
The class already has mechanical customization as well, but its limited and in line with other classes.
Thats the issue with what you're saying. You're claiming you don't want more power, but power is a natural consequence of the Mechanical customization you're demanding.
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Idk, same reason that people keep reading me wanting customization as somehow wanting more power when I have never stated that? Or people reading my posts and then implying that I just want to power game, when I have not stated that? Or people misreading my posts as lying when I have every time just given my opinion based on my very human and fallible memory?
Or people implying that I can't use my "imagination", because I prefer having a mechanical basis and not accepting verisimilitude/logic breaking descriptions.
I have seen the mechanical thing countered twice, but both time I was not convinced by those counters. Just like none of my posts have convinced them.
So tell me why single me out, when they are doing the same thing, eh? What's the difference?
I'll go ahead and say I do not think you're asking for the mechanical customizations because you want to be OP. I don't get that vibe from you. It seems like a lot of suggestions for mechanics[not just from you, or you at all, but others on this forum] are trying to come up with these things in a vacuum which can cause balance issues for the game as a whole.
As Krispy is saying, the MECHANICAL customization must be in balance with the other classes. Options should not be obviously meta, nor should they be 'trap' options. They should just be options that you pick based on what you like and what you need at the time.
I personally do not think the point buy system of PF1 original eidolon is a good idea for PF2, but I also admit I do not have time between work and life stuff going on to playtest this summoner so I might be a bad person to listen to.
I do suggest rereading a few of the arguments made for the climbing/flying suggestion, however, because the implication that people are attempting to gain mechanical benefits when it has been stated many times that there is no mechanical change comes off as aggressive, implying that people are trying to cheat. That is not the case, as has been stated many times, and continuing to imply as such does not help in any way.
Only accepting narrative descriptions that match the mechanics 100% is, in my opinion, rather restrictive in a game about roleplaying and imagination, but that's just me.
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...Perhaps, but that example is a bit more different than the proposed "fly a wall" option, which has more of a physical application to the character than a narrative one. My Wizard was a slave to Drow, but I took the Tinker background because he was granted a boon of freedom after helping expose a coup in the noble infrastructure, and used his knowledge from his "apprenticeship" to make a living by making things. The expanded background here is purely narrative.
With physical applications like wings or tails, perhaps other options become available that otherwise wouldn't be. As an example back in PF1, there was a way for non-tailed characters to acquire tail attacks. So, some players wanted to play those builds because they thought it would be fun and interesting and add a new level of customization never expanded upon before. However, it was ruled by a Paizo dev that, even if they could select the feats, certain narrative things like physiology (such as not having an actual tail) does not let you gain free things like tail attacks to utilize.
So, let's say there are feats that grant benefits via physiology that characters who don't typically have that physiology want. If I decided that it would be fun/cool if I gave Kim the Kobold a set of wings and Ken the Kobold no wings, to force diversity between players/characters, that's a mechanical advantage in that case. It can be a problem for future proofing as well, if so.
Physically having wings but not being able to fly is already in the game, both flavor-wise and mechanically. Tengu.
You can be a rare tengu with vestigial wings incapable of flight, and you don't HAVE to take the Skyborn Tengu heritage to do it. It's just on the flavor page of base Tengu, you can just...have wings that don't do anything but exist on your back and make shirts annoying to buy. You only start to get a MECHANICAL benefit when you pick Skyborn Tengu, and even then the heritage doesn't say you even need
I disagree with you saying they are getting a mechanical benefit. There are no circumstance bonuses in place, there are no skill effects like "critical failure becomes failure" in place.
But it is because of that, that I do agree that it's not something the narrative is meant to support, because flying means you don't need support from a wall or other surface to move across it, meaning it's not actually flying if ran this way, and if they really are vestigial wings, then they don't actually work or help with the climb check as you imply, with the built-in flavor already being "You're just that good at this skill." Tim the Human being just as good at climbing as Wally the Winged Eidolon breaks the proposed narrative because the physiology is a non-sequitur, both mechanically and narratively. Those wings do nothing to aid the roll or show that it helps make their climbing that good.
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Idk, same reason that people keep reading me wanting customization as somehow wanting more power when I have never stated that?Mechanical customization is power.
So long as the player can choose between two gameplay options that have even situationally different power levels, the player can choose one option that is situationally better than another. The more of these choices you can make, and especially the more freedom you have in these choices, the more net power you can build into your character.
This is the basis of how and why point buy characrer build systems work, and why they're so min-maxy.
The Summoner currently has almost infinite narrative customization, which is still customization- it just does NOT come with more power.
The class already has mechanical customization as well, but its limited and in line with other classes.
Thats the issue with what you're saying. You're claiming you don't want more power, but power is a natural consequence of the Mechanical customization you're demanding.
I would agree if the customization was cumulative, as you have seen in the PF1 Eidolon, but in the case of Sorcerer, it is not.
You get a choice from one of numerous bloodlines; most are the same, with a few different powers here and there, but it's all relatively weak. Your choice determines your spell list, as well as a few feat options. But, those customizations come with a price of exclusion and sacrifice from other options, and at no point in time are you benefitting from one set of customization any more than another, nor are you getting simultaneous benefits without cost. In fact, the Sorcerer is weaker than a lot of their spellcasting counterparts as a result of this "balance point."
Whereas in PF1 the Eidolon could accumulate and spend their points on whatever they could, with little to no exclusion or sacrifice of options or capabilities.
To me, the Sorcerer proves they can balance multi-faceted customization to the point that it's not going to overshadow specialists who don't have it.
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To me, the Sorcerer proves they can balance...
Well, yeah, but we already HAVE Sorcerer level customization.
Technically, we already have MORE than Sorcerer level customization.
I'm not saying, "No customization!" I'm saying we already have it, in reasonable amount. And more is coming!
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Idk, same reason that people keep reading me wanting customization as somehow wanting more power when I have never stated that?Mechanical customization is power.
So long as the player can choose between two gameplay options that have even situationally different power levels, the player can choose one option that is situationally better than another. The more of these choices you can make, and especially the more freedom you have in these choices, the more net power you can build into your character.
This is the basis of how and why point buy characrer build systems work, and why they're so min-maxy.
The Summoner currently has almost infinite narrative customization, which is still customization- it just does NOT come with more power.
The class already has mechanical customization as well, but its limited and in line with other classes.
Thats the issue with what you're saying. You're claiming you don't want more power, but power is a natural consequence of the Mechanical customization you're demanding.
I would agree if the customization was cumulative, as you have seen in the PF1 Eidolon, but in the case of Sorcerer, it is not.
You get a choice from one of numerous bloodlines; most are the same, with a few different powers here and there, but it's all relatively weak. Your choice determines your spell list, as well as a few feat options. But, those customizations come with a price of exclusion and sacrifice from other options, and at no point in time are you benefitting from one set of customization any more than another, nor are you getting simultaneous benefits without cost. In fact, the Sorcerer is weaker than a lot of their spellcasting counterparts as a result of this "balance point."
Whereas in PF1 the Eidolon could accumulate and spend their points on whatever they could, with little to no exclusion or sacrifice of options or capabilities.
To me, the Sorcerer proves they can balance...
I agree, but what we have right now is that. Your eidolon's subtype is one to one with a bloodline (right down to informing your tradition) and the eidolon abilities are like bloodline powers.
In order to make them have more customization than that you'd have to make them like the witch; you pick your subtype (patron) and then have to burn feats to pick up your eidolon abilities (lessons).This would allow your angel to have beast charge etc.
Me? I like the fact I don't have to use up a feat to get a breath weapon on my dragon.
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To me, the Sorcerer proves they can balance...
Well, yeah, but we already HAVE Sorcerer level customization.
Technically, we already have MORE than Sorcerer level customization.
I'm not saying, "No customization!" I'm saying we already have it, in reasonable amount. And more is coming!
Then I'm in agreement with the other posters as to why the build-a-bear formula doesn't work, because this is now basically "Sorcerer with a pet, sort of." Just what we need is a Sorcerer-Lite class. Ew.
Last I checked, Sorcerers having their spell list tied to bloodline was supposed to be the big draw to the class. I guess Paizo decided "Hey, let's do the same thing here, the Sorcerer isn't being trampled to the ground enough by the other classes having much better powers and tools at their disposal."
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I disagree with you saying they are getting a mechanical benefit. There are no circumstance bonuses in place, there are no skill effects like "critical failure becomes failure" in place.
But it is because of that, that I do agree that it's not something the narrative is meant to support, because flying means you don't need support from a wall or other surface to move across it, meaning it's not actually flying if ran this way, and if they really are vestigial wings, then they don't actually work or help with the climb check as you imply, with the built-in flavor already being "You're just that good at this skill." Tim the Human being just as good at climbing as Wally the Winged Eidolon breaks the proposed narrative because the physiology is a non-sequitur, both mechanically and narratively. Those wings do nothing to aid the roll or show that it helps make their climbing that good.
That's your restrictive view on narrative and mechanics and descriptions. Describing your method of using the climb speed without changing the mechanics to match the character flavor you want hurts no one, gives no buffs, and does not somehow take the dictionary and break it over your knee. If you prefer to keep all the terms used in the ruleset as restrictive to mechanics as possible, that is your decision. Maybe instead for flying up the wall, practicing using your small wings that need to be trained, I will just use the word glide, there's no "glide speed" so that should be fine, yes?
Tim the Human being just as good as Eddy the Eidolon but in different METHODS breaks nothing. Tim could be an avid mountain climber, gaining his climb speed through his daily practice scaling walls to be able to climb the steepest cliffs and climb the highest mountains. Eddy the eidolon is using walls to support his burgeoning wings as practice moving with the appendages, but not quite yet good enough to support himself without the solid wall there.
I disagree with you saying they are getting a mechanical benefit.
I'm...confused here. Are you referring to when I said you only start getting a mechanical benefit from Tengu wings if you pick the specific heritage that GIVES the benefit?
Because that's what I said. There are plenty of ways to have physiological choices that do not impact mechanics at all, it's all baked into the lore and flavor text of PF2 already. The way you make it sound, and I'm sorry if I'm reading it wrong, is that I can't even have wings on a Tengu unless they are providing something mechanically through feats/heritages/whatever else, even though the description of Tengu itself says they can have useless wings sometimes without requiring the Skyborn heritage. That every physical option I pick or descriptive flavor I use must be 100% reflected in mechanics, so I cannot be a dhampir with fangs unless I pick up the fangs ancestry feat, despite dhampir being described as ALL having elongated incisors.
I apologize if I'm misunderstanding your stance.
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I disagree with you saying they are getting a mechanical benefit. There are no circumstance bonuses in place, there are no skill effects like "critical failure becomes failure" in place.
But it is because of that, that I do agree that it's not something the narrative is meant to support, because flying means you don't need support from a wall or other surface to move across it, meaning it's not actually flying if ran this way, and if they really are vestigial wings, then they don't actually work or help with the climb check as you imply, with the built-in flavor already being "You're just that good at this skill." Tim the Human being just as good at climbing as Wally the Winged Eidolon breaks the proposed narrative because the physiology is a non-sequitur, both mechanically and narratively. Those wings do nothing to aid the roll or show that it helps make their climbing that good.
That's your restrictive view on narrative and mechanics and descriptions. Describing your method of using the climb speed without changing the mechanics to match the character flavor you want hurts no one, gives no buffs, and does not somehow take the dictionary and break it over your knee. If you prefer to keep all the terms used in the ruleset as restrictive to mechanics as possible, that is your decision. Maybe instead for flying up the wall, practicing using your small wings that need to be trained, I will just use the word glide, there's no "glide speed" so that should be fine, yes?
Tim the Human being just as good as Eddy the Eidolon but in different METHODS breaks nothing. Tim could be an avid mountain climber, gaining his climb speed through his daily practice scaling walls to be able to climb the steepest cliffs and climb the highest mountains. Eddy the eidolon is using walls to support his burgeoning wings as practice moving with the appendages, but not quite yet good enough to support himself without the solid wall there.
I...
To be clear, this was initially in response to Temperans' statement of mechanical advantages. There isn't any.
But, to me, the mechanics drive the narrative. A character with high Charisma but no training can have natural talent in an associated skill, but is probably not as good as some not-so-talented person who invested the time and energy into the art. It's less apparent in the low levels, but by 7th level or so, training trumps talent, and as you go up in levels, characters are much less defined by their trained skills and more by their Master/Legendary training.
Hence why I feel that Eddy the Eidolon being skilled at climbing is because he trained at it like everyone else did, wings or no. The wings have nothing to do with the mechanics behind the narrative drive here. There's no circumstance bonus or success rate adjustment here. It doesn't improve training in climbing any more than Tim the Human, even if I understand the design goal behind it.
If mechanics do not drive narrative, I can literally pitch every rulebook out the window and just pitch GURPS to the group instead. Or LARP. But neither are my thing, and for good reason.
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To be clear, this was initially in response to Temperans' statement of mechanical advantages. There isn't any.
But, to me, the mechanics drive the narrative. A character with high Charisma but no training can have natural talent in an associated skill, but is probably not as good as some not-so-talented person who invested the time and energy into the art. It's less apparent in the low levels, but by 7th level or so, training trumps talent, and as you go up in levels, characters are much less defined by their trained skills and more by their Master/Legendary training.
Hence why I feel that Eddy the Eidolon being skilled at climbing is because he trained at it like everyone else did, wings or no. The wings have nothing to do with the mechanics behind the narrative drive here. There's no circumstance bonus or success rate adjustment here. It doesn't improve training in climbing any more than Tim the Human, even if I understand the design goal behind it.
If mechanics do not drive narrative, I can literally pitch every rulebook out the window and just pitch GURPS to the group instead. Or LARP. But neither are my thing, and for good reason.
Oh, thank you, I'm less confused now!
Mechanics and narrative really need to be mixed in a way that ticks every box for me. I need to be free to be colorful in my descriptions, while playing with a balanced ruleset for conflict resolution. Personally, the climb-fly description doesn't bother me, but I understand other tables prefer a tighter marriage of the two concepts, which is perfectly valid! Mechanics drive the narrative, but the narrative wouldn't happen at all for me if we only focused on the mechanics. It's an interesting balance and no real wrong or right way to do it.
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To be clear, this was initially in response to Temperans' statement of mechanical advantages. There isn't any.
But, to me, the mechanics drive the narrative. A character with high Charisma but no training can have natural talent in an associated skill, but is probably not as good as some not-so-talented person who invested the time and energy into the art. It's less apparent in the low levels, but by 7th level or so, training trumps talent, and as you go up in levels, characters are much less defined by their trained skills and more by their Master/Legendary training.
Hence why I feel that Eddy the Eidolon being skilled at climbing is because he trained at it like everyone else did, wings or no. The wings have nothing to do with the mechanics behind the narrative drive here. There's no circumstance bonus or success rate adjustment here. It doesn't improve training in climbing any more than Tim the Human, even if I understand the design goal behind it.
If mechanics do not drive narrative, I can literally pitch every rulebook out the window and just pitch GURPS to the group instead. Or LARP. But neither are my thing, and for good reason.
Oh, thank you, I'm less confused now!
Mechanics and narrative really need to be mixed in a way that ticks every box for me. I need to be free to be colorful in my descriptions, while playing with a balanced ruleset for conflict resolution. Personally, the climb-fly description doesn't bother me, but I understand other tables prefer a tighter marriage of the two concepts, which is perfectly valid! Mechanics drive the narrative, but the narrative wouldn't happen at all for me if we only focused on the mechanics. It's an interesting balance and no real wrong or right way to do it.
To me, they already are for the most part, and anything that isn't because it's unclear? Fair territory for that sort of thing, just like houseruling.
But I also want to be clear that, that is what it is. As a GM, I might reward a player who cleverly uses their anatomy to their advantage. They specify they use their wings to help climb or glide down? Sounds like some circumstance bonuses going on. No different than a player using appropriate draws to a conversation. But I also don't want players to assume that those are base game benefits, or that every GM does this or awards that kind of favoritism. On one hand, I like it when players are creative and solve something in a way I didn't think possible, as it makes the players feel more heroic and have more of a hand at the narrative, making it more like their story than just another AP resolution. On the other hand, not every player at my table will be that creative for solutions, for numerous reasons outside their control, so it feels more like I'm being punishing for lack of creativity than just playing the game fairly for everyone involved. And with the Human and Eidolon comparison, I don't feel like I'm giving them a fair shake if I decide one gets a bonus because of physiology being used. Hence why I prefer the game's given interpretation of "You're just that good."
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To me, the Sorcerer proves they can balance...
Well, yeah, but we already HAVE Sorcerer level customization.
Technically, we already have MORE than Sorcerer level customization.
I'm not saying, "No customization!" I'm saying we already have it, in reasonable amount. And more is coming!
To be fair, some of the calls for more customization is not just "I want more options", but also "I want a more flexible delivery system than choosing feats." From that point of view, no, it's entirely possible we aren't getting more customization. More options to choose from, certainly, but no increased ability to do that choosing. I don't think we need to go whole hog into PF1 point system, but I would like to see more knobs to pull than what we have.
Even making the higher level attack upgrades unlocked by feats, and giving a flexible/Transmorgify feat at those levels, as opposed to simply giving you the attack upgrade, would do an awful lot to satisfy me.
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Even making the higher level attack upgrades unlocked by feats, and giving a flexible/Transmorgify feat at those levels, as opposed to simply giving you the attack upgrade, would do an awful lot to satisfy me.
A 'flexible' Evolution Feat like Fighters get Combat Feats would be pretty awesome.
If you want to go really crazy, allow a Heighted (6th or 7th) Evolution Surge to change it outside of Daily Preparations.
EDIT - You could really just make the Transmogrify class feat a class feature and it would help a lot...
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Well I didn't want to sound GREEDY*, but 100% yes on all counts.
*I absolutely am, I just didn't want to sound it.
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Or you know just make Transmogrify a spell and give the Summoner more spells slots.
Let the Summoner pick if they want to Transmogrify. I certainly dont want a class feature that I will never use just taking up power from the Summoner that could be used to give the Eidolons actual evolutions.
You know this would be fairly close to the familiar system you and I have wanted, right?
Especially if True Transmorgification is the baseline ability. They'd take away...oh, Darkvision and give you a slot you can spend towards either Scent + Low Light vision or Darkvision. Then at level 2, you can select a feat, and then you have 2 feats slots to spend on either 2 sensory feats or 1 sense and 1 magical evolution. Or you can pick a non-evolution feat and keep only 1 point/feat to spend each morning.
And so on. The more evolution feats you pick up, the more and higher level options and "points" you have to spend, letting you go as deep or as shallow as you'd like.
Edit: More low-level evolutions, like something that allows greater skill with balancing, Energy Resistance, the ability to step into rough terrain (Hooves), would help round out this concept, but I think those are coming.
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That's fair, but I really don't think we're getting away from feats. Even familiars and animal companions are bound by feats for their upgrades.
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Last I checked, Sorcerers having their spell list tied to bloodline was supposed to be the big draw to the class. I guess Paizo decided "Hey, let's do the same thing here, the Sorcerer isn't being trampled to the ground enough by the other classes having much better powers and tools at their disposal."
Man. I felt this in my soul.
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Even making the higher level attack upgrades unlocked by feats, and giving a flexible/Transmorgify feat at those levels, as opposed to simply giving you the attack upgrade, would do an awful lot to satisfy me.A 'flexible' Evolution Feat like Fighters get Combat Feats would be pretty awesome.
If you want to go really crazy, allow a Heighted (6th or 7th) Evolution Surge to change it outside of Daily Preparations.
EDIT - You could really just make the Transmogrify class feat a class feature and it would help a lot...
I could see something like "At 5th level and every 3 levels after, pick an additional evolution feat with a level prerequisite no higher than half your level."