I always assumed they'd combine the various pokemon classes into a single class, but I admit I didn't think they'd stick with Summoner as a name. Thaumaturgist doesn't have a specific meaning in Pathfinder, I don't think.
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I think the Magus is much easier to balance than the summoner. I'm waiting to see what ideas they work into a new iteration.
I'm not convinced the balance of the Summoner isn't good at some levels. The Eidolon is really the focal point, because unlike the Summoner its the part of the class with the potential to really break barriers and excel.
1-2 is clearly bad, as AC is behind and attack accuracy is behind by a point due to 16 strength/dex.
At 3, the AC thing is fixed and you're only slightly deficient on attack.
It feels really good in the 5-6 range, where the class is at it strongest with the same offensive numbers as a non-fighter martial, and the same spell proficiency as any other caster.
At level 7, when I drop behind on spell proficiency but retain the 'monk' AC, it should still be pretty solid.
At 10, we lose ground because everyone else's attributes hit 20 at their peaks and our Eidolons are stuck at 19.
At 11, I should spike a bit again with my spellcasting 'catching up', and my AC is still good (a point behind 'experts' like monks, with their superior AC and 20 dex).
And then fall back a bit at 13 when everyone else's AC catches up on proficiency. Now my attack is lagging, and my AC is only the same as everyone else's.
15 sees attributes catch up and make up some of the difference, but spellcasting proficiency falls behind again... but things are still OK. AC should be competitive with most Martials, as is Attack bonus.
But we do lose serious ground due to losing out on Apex Items and being behind on attributes at 20.
******
So, what am I getting at? The balance curve of the class is currently a bunch of peaks and valleys. I really think the class looks pretty good at the peaks, and that the focus on balance should be on 'filling in' and smoothing out the deeper valleys. I'm hoping to get in some significant play at 7, because I feel like thats going to be telling - I'm thinking 7-9 and 11-14 are going to be the sweet spots where the class isn't at its strongest, but still feels 'sufficient'.
I don't think balancing the class is an impossible task - I just think the floors needs to come up to match that target (which you can do a HUGE part of by starting with an 18 strength, and expert Unarmored at level 1) and then add in a lot of the thematic and utility stuff like Summoning support (Summoning spells via focus or font or bonus slots, and some sort of accuracy fix).
I don't think thats a bad class.
The wiki says,practice or study of magical and supernatural effects.[1] The term is sometimes used to describe a magical effect or object affected by magic, such as a construct or metamagical effect.
That has promise.
You possibly don't know what I was referencing (you've mentioned you don't know a lot of 3.5), so I'll go ahead and link it: Thaumaturgist Prestige Class
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm
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PF2 doesn't have the same sort of summoning/calling distinctions. Summoner seems fine to me.
"Hey GM, I wanna be a summoner!"
"Cool. Are you interested in lots of disposable minions, or one big permanent summons?"
It's the same sort of conversation I'd have about Rogue vs. Investigator for a skillmonkey. Yeah, summoning is a smaller niche, but that's okay.
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PF2 doesn't have the same sort of summoning/calling distinctions.
It's a bit of false advertising IMO, as it gets none of the benefits or penalties of being summoned: If someone multiclasses into wizard and picks up Augment Summoning to use on the "one big permanent summons" they are going to be disapointed to find out it does nothing. Or you meet an NPC Summoner and try to Banish the Eildon only to be told it's not summoned: It wouldn't be odd for them to say 'you said it was a summoned so why doesn't it work?'
I see nothing good by pretending the Eildon is summoned if you aren't intentionally muddying the waters. It's not a debate on semantics once it has actual mechanical ramifications.
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PF2 doesn't have the same sort of summoning/calling distinctions.It's a bit of false advertising IMO, as it gets none of the benefits or penalties of being summoned: If someone multiclasses into wizard and picks up Augment Summoning to use on the "one big permanent summons" they are going to be disapointed to find out it does nothing. Or you meet an NPC Summoner and try to Banish the Eildon only to be told it's not summoned: It wouldn't be odd for them to say 'you said it was a summoned so why doesn't it work?'
I see nothing good by pretending the Eildon is summoned if you aren't intentionally muddying the waters. It's not a debate on semantics once it has actual mechanical ramifications.
Just a small note, banishment affects Eidolons who have non-Material home planes. Are there other summon-specific banish spells?
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Just a small note, banishment affects Eidolons who have non-Material home planes. Are there other summon-specific banish spells?PF2 doesn't have the same sort of summoning/calling distinctions.It's a bit of false advertising IMO, as it gets none of the benefits or penalties of being summoned: If someone multiclasses into wizard and picks up Augment Summoning to use on the "one big permanent summons" they are going to be disapointed to find out it does nothing. Or you meet an NPC Summoner and try to Banish the Eildon only to be told it's not summoned: It wouldn't be odd for them to say 'you said it was a summoned so why doesn't it work?'
I see nothing good by pretending the Eildon is summoned if you aren't intentionally muddying the waters. It's not a debate on semantics once it has actual mechanical ramifications.
Yep, I know this but Summoned itself notes "Summoned creatures can be banished by spells and effects" which means the default is if it's summoned, you can Banish it: Having one of the base Eildon immune to it is a pretty big departure from the norm.
I find the 'Summoner' sounds boring.
Of course, we could call this class the Warlock but it doesn't really change anything.
The Somner/Somnour/Sompnour is the only other idea I could think of.
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The class should just be called EIDOLON.
We all know it's actually the eidolon who controls the summoner!
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Frankly, just rebranding it in the fashion that befits the lore as God-Caller is probably the most appropriate move here since they've stripped everything out of the class that had anything to do with actually properly being a good Summoner and went all-in on the whole "You exist to command your Eidolon" aspect of things.
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Yep, I know this but Summoned itself notes "Summoned creatures can be banished by spells and effects" which means the default is if it's summoned, you can Banish it: Having one of the base Eildon immune to it is a pretty big departure from the norm.Just a small note, banishment affects Eidolons who have non-Material home planes. Are there other summon-specific banish spells?PF2 doesn't have the same sort of summoning/calling distinctions.It's a bit of false advertising IMO, as it gets none of the benefits or penalties of being summoned: If someone multiclasses into wizard and picks up Augment Summoning to use on the "one big permanent summons" they are going to be disapointed to find out it does nothing. Or you meet an NPC Summoner and try to Banish the Eildon only to be told it's not summoned: It wouldn't be odd for them to say 'you said it was a summoned so why doesn't it work?'
I see nothing good by pretending the Eildon is summoned if you aren't intentionally muddying the waters. It's not a debate on semantics once it has actual mechanical ramifications.
Ummm... I mean, not really. First edition eidolons couldn't be banished either.
I'm not sure why you're fighting so hard for this nerf. I don't think this eidolon is so powerful it needs a nerf as big as "Can be effected by all the stuff that f#$@s summons."
And if you don't want it to be effected by that stuff, leaving off the Summoned Tag is way easier on the word count then individually listing everything the eidolons an exception for. (Which is what First edition did.)
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Ummm... I mean, not really. First edition eidolons couldn't be banished either.
Wmmm... What class where YOU playing? "The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally." [PF1 summoner AND unchained sumoner] SO I'm not exactly sure what PF1 class you are referencing.
I'm not sure why you're fighting so hard for this nerf.
What nerf am I fighting for again? I'm saying that a Summoner should actually be good at summoning something by definition. That isn't calling for a nerf in ANY way, just a statement of the facts that they don't summon anything except from their very limited slots and that doesn't feel like a summoner to me.
I don't think this eidolon is so powerful it needs a nerf as big as "Can be effected by all the stuff that f#$@s summons."
I NEVER said it should: I JUST said that is seems SUPER disingenuous to call it a summoned creature when the rules in no way treat it like one.
And if you don't want it to be effected by that stuff, leaving off the Summoned Tag is way easier on the word count then individually listing everything the eidolons an exception for. (Which is what First edition did.)
I 100% agree: just don't pretend it's summoned if that's what you do since it's no longer a summoned creature.
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100% agree: just don't pretend it's summoned if that's what you do since it's no longer a summoned creature.
And if they wasted the text to add, "The Eidolon is a Summoned Creature, but lacks the Summoned trait and its associated effects." Would you relent on this?
Thats completely unnecessary, because its already implied what with the fact that the Eidolon is summoned from another location, and the class is called the Summoner.
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And if they wasted the text to add, "The Eidolon is a Summoned Creature, but lacks the Summoned trait and its associated effects." Would you relent on this?
No... It's a manifested creature: Nothing is gained by pretending it's a summoned creature that for some reason in no way acts like one. There is no reason to have a trait, then associate something with it only to ignore EVERYTHING the trait's mechanics represents. If it doesn't in any way work like summoning, don't call it that because it isn't that. Teleportation is as valid a mechanism as summoning to explain what happens with the Eidolon AND doesn't require butchering the trait to force it to work.
completely unnecessary
I agree because it isn't in any way a summoning.
because its already implied what with the fact that the Eidolon is summoned from another location
I can't agree as it fails to summon anything: the Eidolon is never summoned as summoned is a trait that it lacks. Why isn't Teleportation more implied as the text EXPLICITLY says it's NOT Summoned. "Your eidolon doesn’t have the summoned or minion trait, but the conduit that allows them to manifest is also a tether between you." Note it SPECIFICALLY calling out manifesting and not summoning. It's almost like they are going out of their way to NOT call it summoning...
the class is called the Summoner.
That is circular reasoning: it must be a summons because the name is summoner and it's a summoner because it summons things. My whole disagreement is that the name doesn't fit as it doesn't summon anything: it's not self evident.
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The Summoner has a unique way of Summoning their Eidolon as opposed to Summoning spells. Still a Summoner.
Sure it's TOTALLY summons something except in every way summoning is described in the mechanics... It manifests, which is in no way mechanically related to summoning in any way. As such, summoner is very incorrectly named as the class stands. Manifester, sure. Spiritualist, fine. Summoner? Nope, no summoning here... Again, what a summoner does with their Eidolon is more in line with Teleportation than Summoned: you don't have to alter anything for Teleportation but you have to ignore every mechanic summoning has to have it fall under it so what is the point in doing so? It has as much to do with summoning as it does Polymorph, as you have to cross out everything under the trait to make it fit.
So you can pretend it's summoning, but to me it's like seeing you point at a cat and saying 'a dog catcher caught it so it has it must be a dog...'
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The Summoner has a unique way of Summoning their Eidolon as opposed to Summoning spells. Still a Summoner.Sure it's TOTALLY summons something except in every way summoning is described in the mechanics... It manifests, which is in no way mechanically related to summoning in any way. As such, summoner is very incorrectly named as the class stands. Manifester, sure. Spiritualist, fine. Summoner? Nope, no summoning here... Again, what a summoner does with their Eidolon is more in line with Teleportation than Summoned: you don't have to alter anything for Teleportation but you have to ignore every mechanic summoning has to have it fall under it so what is the point in doing so? It has as much to do with summoning as it does Polymorph, as you have to cross out everything under the trait to make it fit.
So you can pretend it's summoning, but to me it's like seeing you point at a cat and saying 'a dog catcher caught it so it has it must be a dog...'
Good bloody grief. In a colloquial term, there is very little difference between summoning and manifesting. The terms have different meanings in strict mechanical terms of Pathfinder 2e. The point has been made. The point is dead. Leave bloody horse alone, please. Ugh.
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Good bloody grief. In a colloquial term, there is very little difference between summoning and manifesting. The terms have different meanings in strict mechanical terms of Pathfinder 2e. The point has been made. The point is dead. Leave bloody horse alone, please. Ugh.
If the point is dead then why are people still arguing with me? If a dead horse is being flogged, you, Rysky and KrispyXIV are right there too smacking it around too... I have NO intention of changing my mind so either people accept that or we're going to be debating this for a while. :P
As to "there is very little difference between summoning and manifesting": the difference is the mechanics: summoning has a set of mechanics it uses. Manifesting an Eidolon follows NONE of those mechanics. How close the words meanings are is irrelevant once you attach mechanics to them and said mechanics do not match. An animal without wings or feathers and has 2 arm and is cold blooded isn't a bird even if the name is close to that of a bird [raptor vs raptor]. You can't ignore the fact they share NO mechanics and claim they are the same because of the name. A Dromaeosaur [raptor] and a Bird [raptor] aren't the same thing even though I could call them the same thing: mechanics matter.
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*Stares at piles of beaten horses named "Bulk," "Oracle Curse," "Nimble Dodge," "JoJo references"...*
No, I don't see anyone here with a habit of beating horses long after they're dead.
Scientifically, birds are dinosaurs.
Right from the first sentence of the article linked "Maniraptora is a clade of coelurosaurian dinosaurs which includes the birds and the non-avian dinosaurs": IE, non-avian dinosaurs aren't birds. They are related branches [ie cousins per se] but aren't the same thing. It's much like dogs are a sister clade to European gray wolves, but that doesn't make wolves the same as dogs.
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It's much like dogs are a sister clade to European gray wolves, but that doesn't make wolves the same as dogs.
But they are both canines, mammals, and animals.
No ones saying that an Eidolon is the same as a summoned creature with the Summoned and Minion traits.
Its not a "Summoned Creature", but it is a creature that was summoned.
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It's much like dogs are a sister clade to European gray wolves, but that doesn't make wolves the same as dogs.But they are both canines, mammals, and animals.
No ones saying that an Eidolon is the same as a summoned creature with the Summoned and Minion traits.
Its not a "Summoned Creature", but it is a creature that was summoned.
Indeed, IRL "summoned" just means brought from one place to you.
You can be "summoned" for jury duty.Edit: "Summoned" in mythological or fantasy terms is just teleportation but specifically to yourself. As comparison, "Banished" is just teleportation but away from yourself.
If they came out with a class called the "Banisher" that had a power to send creatures back to their home plane called "Banishing Strike" but lacked the Abjuration Tag so it could affect a being that was hypothetically immune to Abjuration... well call me crazy, cuz I'd still call it a "banishment."
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*Stares at piles of beaten horses named "Bulk," "Oracle Curse," "Nimble Dodge," "JoJo references"...*
No, I don't see anyone here with a habit of beating horses long after they're dead.
"Nimble Dodge"? I don't recall any issue with that. You sure you have the right person on this?
As to the rest, sure I have strong feeling on them but again, I'm not debating them alone. Anyone that doesn't want to hear about bulk/oracle curses/jojo should just ignore my grumbles: Just don't act surprised if I reply to a reply. ;P
But they are both canines, mammals, and animals.
Sure, but it's like a reptile caller class calling all mammals or canines. It's not doing what it advertises even though both reptiles and mammals are animals.
No ones saying that an Eidolon is the same as a summoned creature with the Summoned and Minion traits.
Its not a "Summoned Creature", but it is a creature that was summoned.
Creatures that are summoned have the trait: that's what makes them Summoned. "A creature called by a conjuration spell or effect gains the summoned trait." Summoned is a trait you get for being summoned and is the result of summoning something. It's like saying it's a rage ability but you don't have to be in a rage to use it: it's a statement that doesn't make sense on it's face.
Dromaeosaurs have feathers and are debatably avian. Wolves and dogs can interbreed, so I'm not sure where you're trying to go.
There is a debate on feathers on the bigger Dromaeosauridae and I have never heard of them being classified as avian. As to wolves and dogs, they are different things that aren't interchangeable because they are related. It's factually incorrect to call a wolf a dog.
Sure, which means Teleport equally fits and needs no mechanical alterations to work....Indeed, IRL "summoned" just means brought from one place to you.
You can be "summoned" for jury duty.
If they came out with a class called the "Banisher" that had a power to send creatures back to their home plane called "Banishing Strike" but lacked the Abjuration Tag so it could affect a being that was hypothetically immune to Abjuration... well call me crazy, cuz I'd still call it a "banishment."
Not really the same thing: it's like that class except it does nothing like the mechanics of banishment and nothing that affects/interacts with banishment works with it...
Sure, which means Teleport equally fits and needs no mechanical alterations to work.Indeed, IRL "summoned" just means brought from one place to you.
You can be "summoned" for jury duty.
This is true.
But the "Teleporter" really doesn't have that nice ring to it :)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, which means Teleport equally fits and needs no mechanical alterations to work.Indeed, IRL "summoned" just means brought from one place to you.
You can be "summoned" for jury duty.This is true.
But the "Teleporter" really doesn't have that nice ring to it :)
Regardless, I agree that the issue could be clarified with just dropping the summoned bit and adding in the text saying it teleports to you from its home plane.
And adding in a lot more summon support. I've really liked the summon as focus spell or "summon font" ideas.
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In summary, since the character doesn't really summon the eidolon, and doesn't the rest either, it's no more a summoner.
It's a very interestning class where you play a strange king of twins, more like symbiotes or one (which one by the way :-)) being the parasite of the other.
So renaming it something like SYMBIOTE or the like would make a lot of sense.
IMHO.
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People here trying to make arguments that Manifest and Summon mean the same thing when that honestly couldn't be much further from the truth from a linguistic perspective. They CHOOSE "manifest" intentionally because it describes "something that is put into your physical reality through thought, feelings, and beliefs" which explicitly tells us that the Eidolon didn't exist at ALL before it was made real. Manifesting a thing starts from 0, it doesn't move a thing from one place to another as it is fundamentally a creative function that takes intangible things and makes them real.
The "aspect" that your Eidolon takes certainly comes from one realm or another but the E itself is never Summoned, it doesn't change location, it is instead essentially created from the internal essences of reality within the mind of the PC. When you Summon something it is taken from one place and put in another, that does not even come close to what it means to manifest something.
The Summoner in the case of the Eidolon is the original, intermediate, and final source of their Eidolon despite what realm or form they use to inspire them, sure some will call on Angelic influences but at the end of the day the E only exists as an Angel because the Summoner believes it is an Angel, in other words, they manifest it personally, they make that real.
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People here trying to make arguments that Manifest and Summon mean the same thing when that honestly couldn't be much further from the truth from a linguistic perspective. They CHOOSE "manifest" intentionally because it describes "something that is put into your physical reality through thought, feelings, and beliefs" which explicitly tells us that the Eidolon didn't exist at ALL before it was made real. Manifesting a thing starts from 0, it doesn't move a thing from one place to another as it is fundamentally a creative function that takes intangible things and makes them real.
Source for this claim?
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People here trying to make arguments that Manifest and Summon mean the same thing when that honestly couldn't be much further from the truth from a linguistic perspective. They CHOOSE "manifest" intentionally because it describes "something that is put into your physical reality through thought, feelings, and beliefs" which explicitly tells us that the Eidolon didn't exist at ALL before it was made real. Manifesting a thing starts from 0, it doesn't move a thing from one place to another as it is fundamentally a creative function that takes intangible things and makes them real.Source for this claim?
Um... well, they use the word Manifest and Manifestation whenever they talk about the Eidolon, words that linguistically communicate that you're creating something, typically something abstract or that exists in theory only.
The word "Summon" is listed only listed 8 times in the whole PT file and all but one place it refers to this in conjunction with Creatures Summoned with Spells. The only place in the whole document that uses the word Summon in the same sentence with Eidolon is in the "elevator pitch" flavor text at the top of the Class list which has no mechanical meaning or functionality at all. Without the Summoner the Eidolon does not exist at all, it's not sitting in some other Plane of existence, it simply is nothing at all, it is literally formed from the thoughts, feelings, ideas, and themes that originate from the Summoner personally.
The word Manifest however is used 18 times and always accompanies rules talking about the Eidolon.
It's extremely clear that the Eidolon is explicitly NOT a Summoned Creature in any way, shape, or form from a mechanical perspective and the weight of evidence for this is overwhelming, to be honest. Sure I suppose it's kinda a semantics thing but if that's the case I suppose your position must be that "Creating something out of nothing" is the same a "Summoning" a thing which... from a viewer's, perspective might be accurate but it fails to actually communicate what is happening.
All that aside, I don't think there is anything wrong with saying they're Manifest instead of being Summoned, but it does end up with things feeling quite off since the Summoner Class is, mechanically speaking, the WORST choice for someone who wants to be able to consistently be able to Summon and Command creatures since they're stuck with a hard cap of 4 Spells per Day when a Wizard could easily squeeze out 12+ Summon X in a day after level 6 or so without having to resort to consumables.