Finesse Magus feels like a trap.


Magus Class

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It feels a little counter intuitive in comparison to PF1 Magi, but the finesse Magus gets no support and loses out big time to the STR based magus.

For the Magus, the only weapon trait that justifies taking any weapon but the one with the highest damage die is reach. Fatal is probably worth it, and deadly is decent, but agile is nearly worthless, sweep is only good for one, relatively high level magus feat, and all of the maneuver traits are currently terrible for the magus because they don't have the action economy for it.

THe way striking spell works, low damage die weapons compound in a bad way to make your "big" attack rounds feel much less exciting than STR based Magi. I was cued into this by seeing how the 2 handed magus is almost fun enough to play without any striking spell mechanic at all, so I thought an accurate one handed weapon would be able to place enough focus on making the spell hit to balance things out, but what I found was that the striking spell mechanic doubles down on feeling bad if you can't make your weapon attack be the focus of your damage.

So the fact that a finesse weapon locks you into a lower damage die that almost always pairs with agile makes finesse weapon incredibly bad choices for the magus, enough so to make the dex based melee magus really feel like a trap.

All of the built-in advantages of finesse fighting in PF2 really build around making lots of attacks or doing fancy maneuvers with the weapon. Rangers and rogues and even fighters can get enough attacks in to make it worth considering a weapon like a short sword, but even the rapier, with its deadly die can't really compete with anything like a flick mace, or even a long sword.

To have any kind of incentive to use a finesse weapon, there would need to be either a damage boosting feat or a feat to get two attacks off with a finesse or agile weapon as a magus.

Alternatively, what I would like to see is to get more battlefield control save based cantrips (like a save based tanglefoot) or focus powers and some feat support for having the finesse based melee magus be a battlefield controller instead of a damage dealer. Being encouraged to use spells like slow to debilitate foes and then get to move away after completing your strike. Or something that lets them use maneuvers with finesse and still set off a spell.


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i havent seen the reason to use finesse with most classes tbh. and the ones that you do, you accept the decrease in damage.

Liberty's Edge

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Philosophical question: Why does there need to be a Finesse version of literally every concept/class?

I really don't understand it, we already have two whole classes essentially dedicated to this as part of their specialization/role... why does it make sense to poach that for literally everything else?

Is it just that people REALLY want to optimize their to-hit and AC at the same time?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Maybe you don't make a finesse magus. I just want to point out to playtesters that it is a pretty disappointing option and suggest that if it does come back, it not focus on damage, but on control.

Edit: Also the finesse based magus definitely holds a place in a lot of player's imagination with the whole dervish dancer archetype. That is a bad build in PF2, but it might be interesting if they had a way to cast and move (through the sliding sythesis) and then strike and move away. They are far enough behind on damage (by quite a bit) that it really wouldn't be that breaking.


You have to ask the question...

Do you want a few more points of damage?

Or a few more points on reflex save?

Weight the ups and down and decide if you want to go STR or DEX. I usually like to not fail my reflex saves on a d8 class that is on the frontline.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kyrone wrote:

You have to ask the question...

Do you want a few more points of damage?

Or a few more points on reflex save?

Weight the ups and down and decide if you want to go STR or DEX. I usually like to not fail my reflex saves on a d8 class that is on the frontline.

At first, I thought it was just a couple of points of damage, but even at level 1 it quickly turns into 3 - 4 points behind, that gets multiplied by 2 every time you crit. Getting enough attribute boosts to keep your STR and Dex boosting every 5 levels is possible, but if you do that, and INT you end up with only 1 other stat. Plus the lower damage die just keeps compounding on you as you gain striking runes, so the damage difference is definitely more than a few.

Liberty's Edge

Unicore wrote:
Edit: Also the finesse based magus definitely holds a place in a lot of player's imagination with the whole dervish dancer archetype....

But... that's not even a 1e Magus Archetype... that belongs to the Bard. There ARE Fighter, Swashbuckler, Monk, and even Witch Archetypes that play to the whole dancer/dervish things but... Magus, not so much, at least other than the whole Bladed Scarf Archetype but again, that's not even a Finesse Weapon in PF2 now. That and the Spell Dancer but again, that doesn't interface with Finesse at all.

In fact, there isn't even one Magus Archetype from 1st ed that encourages or benefits Finesse playstyle so I tend to think that this is simply a mental artifact of the overpowered nature of Finesse and Dex in general in 3.X games to the point where even Classes that are not supposed to lean into that flavor still chose to because it was mechanically incentivized.


While a Finesse Magus loses on damage, they do gain on saves. Bypassing Str allows boosting Dex, Con, Int, & Wis. So attacks & DCs stay at peak, as do one's saves. As one levels, that damage gap (as a percentage) decreases while the importance of top-curve saves increases (especially for an 8 h.p. class).
So I'd say, compared to many other martials, a Finesse Magus works.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

In fact, there isn't even one Magus Archetype from 1st ed that encourages or benefits Finesse playstyle so I tend to think that this is simply a mental artifact of the overpowered nature of Finesse and Dex in general in 3.X games to the point where even Classes that are not supposed to lean into that flavor still chose to because it was mechanically incentivized.

Um, have you seen the Kensai archetype? They were light/unarmored to get their Canny Defense and at that point you had a higher Max Dex on your armor so being a Finesse build was pretty much recommended for that archetype. Even without the Kensai, considering their use of Armor type scales and most games were held at lower levels, Dervish Dance offered accessibility to extra AC at early levels. Also, the iconic Magus using a Scimitar along with the accessibility of the Dervish Dancing feat(and later slashing grace for other options), made Dex based Magi a staple in PFS play for a long while. You could still make a STR build, and a lot of people did, but it's disingenuous to say that Finesse builds weren't popular with the class.

Now, does every class need to allow for that kind specialization? No, but I think there is a case for the Magus to get an archetype for one at least.

Scarab Sages

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I do think that the 1E Kapenia Dancer (EDIT: Like Kensai that Darth Grall pointed out, and which it shares some abilities with) is meant as a finesse/dex-based archetype. As written, it's an unarmored archetype that's reliant on dex and int for AC and uses a finesse weapon (PFS added a clarification to allow Kapenia Dancer to wear armor). There is a path to dex-to-damage with it, if the Agile property is allowed in a game.

It's disappointing that the bladed scarf is not a finesse weapon in 2E. They went back to giving it reach, but I think would have been better off giving it finesse without reach (or agile). As is, it's a 2-handed weapon that does the damage of a 1-handed weapon, which makes it not a great option.

Most finesse characters are a little underwhelming in 2E, because dex-to-damage is locked behind the Rogue. That makes even classes like the Swashbuckler need STR to keep up. So there's only truly one pure dex class (and only one subclass of that class) in 2E.

It's not really an AC issue, since AC is so evened out in 2E and the only real way to get an advantage is to go heavy armor. I want to be able to make a mobile, fast, reactive Magus, and that says dex build to me. It's just not well supported in the current framework of the class. Which is part of why I'm disappointed with the current framework of the class.


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ahem this is why I don't think Medium Armor should be the default for Magus.

For one, PF1 Magus didn't even get Medium Armor until later (I believe 7th) and a LOT of Archetypes straight up traded away the increasing armor proficiencies.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ferious Thune wrote:
It's just not well supported in the current framework of the class.

I'm still not really sure I can agree that this is true. There's no inherent support for Finesse over other weapon types, but does there need to be? You're trading a small amount of damage per round for better reflex saves and better skill options. That's pretty reasonable.

If there was any innate finesse support, it'd have to be absurdly marginal so as not to eclipse non-finesse one handers.

Midnightoker wrote:
ahem this is why I don't think Medium Armor should be the default for Magus.

Then don't we just go back to the PF1 problem of Strength magus being almost a trap?

Quote:
For one, PF1 Magus didn't even get Medium Armor until later (I believe 7th) and a LOT of Archetypes straight up traded away the increasing armor proficiencies.

Yeah and it was one of the worst things about the class.


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Pathfinder 2nd edition is pretty consistent that (barring edge cases like the Swashbuckler and Thief Rogue) that Finesse is never the way to do the most damage possible. This is a change from PF1, where dex-to-damage was easy and weapon die size was tiny compared to other bonuses.

But generally the choice is "more defense, or more offense" and finesse is in the "more defense" column.


Squiggit wrote:


Midnightoker wrote:
ahem this is why I don't think Medium Armor should be the default for Magus.

Then don't we just go back to the PF1 problem of Strength magus being almost a trap?

Quote:
For one, PF1 Magus didn't even get Medium Armor until later (I believe 7th) and a LOT of Archetypes straight up traded away the increasing armor proficiencies.
Yeah and it was one of the worst things about the class.

Not at all, and in some parts, I agree that "scaling armor" was kinda stupid because people generally make armor selections early.

My preferred would be to go the route of the Rogue, have Sustaining Steel grant Medium Armor.

And besides, for those that don't want Sustaining Steel, there's always Sentinel which is pretty affordable on a Magus to be honest.

I just said I didn't want it to be the default, but I do want it to be an option.

In fact, I would actually like a completely different Class Path that's more like the Monk, gets the Arcane Fists for free, and is Unarmored entirely.

Maybe I'm looney, but that's how I feel :)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Midnightoker wrote:
My preferred would be to go the route of the Rogue, have Sustaining Steel grant Medium Armor.

Okay cool, now every Strength magus is locked into one path...

Quote:
And besides, for those that don't want Sustaining Steel, there's always Sentinel which is pretty affordable on a Magus to be honest.

Or needs to burn their dedication.

I don't see how hedging out Strength Magi makes the game better for anyone, though.

Quote:
In fact, I would actually like a completely different Class Path that's more like the Monk, gets the Arcane Fists for free, and is Unarmored entirely.

That'd be cool, too. I think more options is better, which is why I don't think stripping Medium armor from the base chassis is healthy, since all that does is take away an existing viable option.

Right now a Magus can take Slide Casting, pick up a longsword, don their medium armor and be reasonably effective right out the gate. I don't see why we should take that away from people.


Meh. The finesse magus doesn't have much support, but I don't think it was much of a consideration. The ability to go dex focused seems more like something you take if you are going for the ranged weapon style (in which case, you are trading damage for 'not being in smacking distance'.)

As far as dex as straight defense... since magus has medium armor, it doesn't help with AC. It doesn't add to initiative much anymore, so dex mostly just boosts reflex.

And reflex always seems like the least threatening save. Sure, it is the save against fireballs... but fort is the save against long term damage to your stats due to drains and poisons. And Will... well, we are always scared of will with its "make you kill your entire party" spells, as well as curses and other nasty abilities.

If you are that concerned about reflex, you might want to grab heavy armor through sentinel. That could give you the same bonus as 16 dex, and it raises your AC as well.


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Me, a Bastard Sword Magus main: How the turntable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I am not asking this question out of malice but out of trying to get a sense of whether we are talking play experience or theory crafting:

Have people supporting the finesse magus tried it?

It is not a question of a little damage or of needing to do the most damage. It is an issue that a one handed STR magus will do almost 2 times as much damage as a finesse one for the maximum trade off of being a little better at reflex saves and a couple of skills.

Even the STR base magus needs a Dex of 12 to start and might as well Keep boosting Dex, at least until it reaches 18, so the reflex saves and skills are relatively minor in the grand scheme of "things your character does often."

Starting with an 18 DEX and a 14 STR and a rapier on the other hand puts you 4 points of damage per attack (an average of 5.5) behind the longsword/flick mace 18STR 14 DEX magus (an average of 9.5). The deadly helps a little, but by the time you can get a shifting rune (so 6th or 7th level) you will be using a flick mace which also has reach, and makes it no contest on which weapon is more effective.

I have a player that is a DEX based champion in one of the games I run, and yes they often do a little less damage, but their attack is agile and they often make 2 or more attacks a round. Sometimes I think they feel sub-optimal, but not too often and they like having a weapon with deadly and the ability to be thrown.

The finesse magus on the other hand is almost never making 2 or more attacks with a weapon a round, and choosing to throw your weapon has all kinds of problems stacking with your focus powers. It also means giving up on slide casting which is a synthesis that is a lot of fun and should work well with a finesse build.

I am not asking for DEX to damage. It wouldn't be very fun on the magus because the magus is much more focused on the damage die for their damage output.

What I am asking for is a little feat support to make a controller magus that uses finesse weapons. That way it is an interesting build but not trying to compete with any other magus build, as the others are all strikers.

Currently the finesse melee magus was not nearly as much fun as I had hoped it would be, even when I picked a whip and tried to make it more of a controller and not worry about damage. It just gets nothing that makes it feel like the character wouldn't just be better built with STR.


Right, but Slide Casting is the strongest of the paths, so no one wants Sustaining Steel.

And going Finesse is objectively worse than just using a Bastard Sword.

I don't think removing default proficiency for Medium qualifies, to me, as "limiting options", when not wearing Medium armor currently is objectively worse.

That's not really an option so much as it is a dictation. And while you might get better Reflex for going DEX, you get objectively worse Athletics checks, which as a Martial Class is a big hit to take IMO.

If Medium armor stays, it will be expected that all Magus wield Medium armor. And considering the number of Magus that didn't use Medium armor at all in the previous edition, is a pretty big departure.

Personally, I don't think justifying Slide Bastard Sword STR build is fair. It's objectively the best build right now.

Slide with Finesse? Worse.

Sustaining Steel in Medium? Worse.

Now you can blame the Class Path of Sustaining Steel for being weak, or we can acknowledge that Slide (even with the "open hand requirement") is blowing the other options out of the water.

And considering that "open hand" fighting styles are typically assigned to Finesse based classes, that's where the logical conclusion lead me.

Of course, I don't expect a straight downgrade with no compensation, the Magus could get something in return for this (such as Weapon Critical Specialization effects back) but I wouldn't make the argument "locked into one class path" for Magus anymore than I'd make it for the Ruffian Rogue.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Slide with a flick mace is way better than slide with a bastard sword.

Sustaining steel with a Great pick, or a Halberd are both really good builds that could give the slide magus with a bastard sword a run for their money. Having the extra HP makes waiting for the enemy to come to you (and buffing during the first round of combat) work pretty well in play.


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I feel like this thread is too much based on attachment to P1E or earlier mechanical assumptions and paradigms. It's a different game, the paradigms aren't the same. If you want to keep boosting DEX, the difference isn't HUGE vs max DEX considering declining returns above 18. 4x stat boosts make old way of talking about stats obsolete, you don't have just one stat far and above others anymore...

Anyways, I see the basis of what OP talks about, and yeah for where you are looking at, that's the dynamic of Magus... nothing wrong with that. That's kind of a trend in P2E, accepting systemic paradigms instead of bypassing them, which then becomes normalized (and if you don't, then you're just not a "dextrous fighter type"). Of course, Ranged Magus is core build now, and that could extend to Finesse switch-hitting which I think is viable. One of basic Feats is free Recall with Unarmed Strike (an action economy booster with broader combat support relevance that AFAICT seems to be overlooked here in forums), which as Finesse weapon is easy pickup for Ranged/DEX Magus that seems viable switch-hitting tactic/tool, even if Ranged is their primary goal. More broadly, I think melee Finesse Magus might find a niche with Multiclass or other Archetypes that depend on Finesse weapons, and perhaps you might like to explore those...

But yeah, core Magus doesn't seem to be about promoting melee Finesse, so max DEX isn't especially rewarded, although like I said you can still reasonably boost DEX if you want. STR is just better at melee than DEX, since even Finesse weapons are more effective using STR. THe only area where DEX is uniquely superior is Ranged, which is fairly supported (better than P1E Core Magus). So unless you are using Ranged, I say don't worry about numbers on character sheet saying max DEX or not, you can invest in DEX enough to handle those skills fine if you want (and even wear Light Armor if you prefer, same AC as Medium just with Light unique Runes instead of Fortification), but there really isn't a point to it in terms of melee (again, barring Multiclass/Archetype potential). So go with the mechanics that do what you need to do, i.e. melee, that's what the system is "telling" you to do... You don't need to derive your character identity from bypassing system paradigm.

Scarab Sages

Squiggit wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
It's just not well supported in the current framework of the class.
I'm still not really sure I can agree that this is true. There's no inherent support for Finesse over other weapon types, but does there need to be? You're trading a small amount of damage per round for better reflex saves and better skill options. That's pretty reasonable.

The previous sentence was "I want to be able to make a mobile, fast, reactive Magus, and that says dex build to me." That's more than just finesse being the issue. Slide casting helps a little, but for the most part, the 2E Magus as written wants to stay in one place. Even more so on two out of the three Syntheses.

Also, if we're going to be given Dex as an option for a Key stat, then the class should have some options to support a Dex build.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Midnightoker wrote:
And going Finesse is objectively worse than just using a Bastard Sword.

Going finesse results in marginally less damage in exchange for other benefits, you mean.

Seriously, we just had the APG give us the Investigator, specifically built to shut out Strength builds and the Swashbuckler, specifically built to shut out Strength builds. Do we really need to be three for three, here?

Strength Magi spent the entirety of PF1 struggling against the system because of their janky armor proficiencies and other systemic issues that just left them worse than Dervishes no matter what they did.

We don't need more of that and stripping away armor proficiencies or adding finesse requirements would be exactly just more of that same BS.

Ferious Thune wrote:
The previous sentence was "I want to be able to make a mobile, fast, reactive Magus, and that says dex build to me." That's more than just finesse being the issue.

Okay sure, but "Magi are too immobile in general" is a different topic than "finesse magi specifically are bad."


Squiggit wrote:


Seriously, we just had the APG give us the Investigator, specifically built to shut out Strength builds

That's news to me, I have a player running a STR Investigator right now who used his Human General Feat to start with Medium Armor and he took Take Down Expert. It's actually pretty decent and it gives a very Jack Reacher/Batman vibe in play.

But I agree it's not as simple to make it work.

Quote:
Strength Magi spent the entirety of PF1 struggling against the system because of their janky armor proficiencies and other systemic issues that just left them worse than Dervishes no matter what they did.

Everyone STR focused had problems in PF1. DEX was the god-stat. Things are different now.

But more importantly, it was required to be one-handed in PF1 Magus because you couldn't cast spells with full-hands.

I hear your frustrations of PF1, and I am by no means saying my will should be imposed here. To me, this isn't even a necessary thing, it's just my personal opinion on saying "hey, make Medium armor a little harder to get and not the standard" because it's what I would personally like.

If no one else feels that way, then I won't fight it! :)

Quote:
We don't need more of that and stripping away armor proficiencies or adding finesse requirements would be exactly just more of that same BS.

I think most of the issues you're referring to was resolved between editions, but I understand that was probably frustrating.

If they offer another way to support the DEX Magus, I'd certainly be content with that. I just personally see a lot of value in removing Medium Armor as the default.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kalaam wrote:
Me, a Bastard Sword Magus main: How the turntable.

Bastard sword magus for life!

Scarab Sages

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I don't think Medium armor needs to be taken away from the Magus, because it basically evens out with light armor. It just lets a STR Magus get the same AC as a DEX Magus without having to have DEX as a 14 for a secondary stat.

If things were even the other way around, then there wouldn't be an issue. A lot of value is placed on DEX affecting reflex saves, but STR affects a lot of things in 2E that it didn't used to. That a DEX build has to have STR for damage, but a STR build doesn't have to have DEX for AC, means that a STR build is going to be easier than a DEX build.

Honestly, with the way that 2E's numbers are restricted to a certain range, you could give every class that has Dex as a Key stat an option to get Dex-to-damage (for melee) and it wouldn't skew things. Maybe the Thief remains the only one that gets it without a feat, but if Swashbuckler, Fighter, Ranger, and Magus all had a 2nd or 4th level option for Dex-to-Damage, i don't think anything would break numbers-wise. You can't boost Dex above 18 (to start) anyway, so all it would mean is you'd be raising other stats instead of strength.


Themetricsystem wrote:

Philosophical question: Why does there need to be a Finesse version of literally every concept/class?

I really don't understand it, we already have two whole classes essentially dedicated to this as part of their specialization/role... why does it make sense to poach that for literally everything else?

Is it just that people REALLY want to optimize their to-hit and AC at the same time?

Because Elven Blade Dancer way back in ADnD was the first Magus type class (well technically kit for elf Fighter/Mages), and the archetype stuck, fast, lightly Armoured melee combatants mixing sword and spell to decimate their opponents. Their are ofc other visions, but that concept has been around for a long time.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Edit: Also the finesse based magus definitely holds a place in a lot of player's imagination with the whole dervish dancer archetype....

But... that's not even a 1e Magus Archetype... that belongs to the Bard. There ARE Fighter, Swashbuckler, Monk, and even Witch Archetypes that play to the whole dancer/dervish things but... Magus, not so much, at least other than the whole Bladed Scarf Archetype but again, that's not even a Finesse Weapon in PF2 now. That and the Spell Dancer but again, that doesn't interface with Finesse at all.

In fact, there isn't even one Magus Archetype from 1st ed that encourages or benefits Finesse playstyle so I tend to think that this is simply a mental artifact of the overpowered nature of Finesse and Dex in general in 3.X games to the point where even Classes that are not supposed to lean into that flavor still chose to because it was mechanically incentivized.

I mean I always thought the epic looking iconic spoke “finesse warrior” to me but maybe that’s because he’s an elf. So I just assumed that the Magus was supposed to be... agile and fast and Elfish.


Whenever I think of someone who casts and slashes I picture someone who's more of a spell fencer type. Rapiers, outwitting and out dodging, etc. To use Final Fantasy classes as an example, I think of Red Mage as the default way to do it, but that's not to say I can't appreciate a good, heavy armored Dark Knight type either. Bulky armor, big 2 handed weapon, unkillable and sending out waves of dark magic.

I would like to see more support for finesse builds, but that's largely because again I'm a sucker for lightly armored spell fencers. It's what I pretty much default to trying to make work in any TTRPG I play. I'm just a sucker for it.


WatersLethe wrote:
Kalaam wrote:
Me, a Bastard Sword Magus main: How the turntable.
Bastard sword magus for life!

Bruther

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kyrone wrote:

You have to ask the question...

Do you want a few more points of damage?

Or a few more points on reflex save?

Weight the ups and down and decide if you want to go STR or DEX. I usually like to not fail my reflex saves on a d8 class that is on the frontline.

More like a few more points of damage and +1 AC or an archetype and 5ft of speed - sentinel gives you full plate at the cost of your archetype. I guess you can retrain a lot to ensure it won't cost you the ability to get a casting archetype as well (though it will probably cost your 10th feat ultimately).


Kalaam wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Kalaam wrote:
Me, a Bastard Sword Magus main: How the turntable.
Bastard sword magus for life!
Bruther

My sword was born in wedlock... ;)

Joking aside, Mauls for the win.


Kalaam wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Kalaam wrote:
Me, a Bastard Sword Magus main: How the turntable.
Bastard sword magus for life!
Bruther

Amen.

My PF1E magus was going to use a bastard sword originally, because they're awesome, but then I was convinced to pick up something else instead for expanded crit fishery. I went with a katana, and while it was fun, it wasn't the vision I had for the character when I set out to make them. Bastard swords taking a place of primacy is ay-okay in my book.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I really would not want to see the magus get dex to damage and for a dex build finesse magus to be a high damage striker, but I do think there is a little more room in the class chassis for some feat support to give a finesse based magus some life as a caster that focuses on Debuffing spells and frustrating enemies with mobility. Even if it was as little as letting a finesse magus use the movement from slide casting after making the strike instead of just after making the spell could be enough to make that possible. I don't think it needs a massive restructuring of Armor Proficiencies or major abilities. Just a light touch (one or two feats) to show a little love.


Exocist wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

You have to ask the question...

Do you want a few more points of damage?

Or a few more points on reflex save?

Weight the ups and down and decide if you want to go STR or DEX. I usually like to not fail my reflex saves on a d8 class that is on the frontline.

More like a few more points of damage and +1 AC or an archetype and 5ft of speed - sentinel gives you full plate at the cost of your archetype. I guess you can retrain a lot to ensure it won't cost you the ability to get a casting archetype as well (though it will probably cost your 10th feat ultimately).

It's like the cheapest offensive archetype in the game because it has two Skill Feats (one of which shouldn't even really be a Skill Feat IMO) meaning you can get in and out with one Class Feat.

Quote:
Even if it was as little as letting a finesse magus use the movement from slide casting after making the strike instead of just after making the spell could be enough to make that possible.

I could dig that.


Perpdepog wrote:
Kalaam wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:
Kalaam wrote:
Me, a Bastard Sword Magus main: How the turntable.
Bastard sword magus for life!
Bruther

Amen.

My PF1E magus was going to use a bastard sword originally, because they're awesome, but then I was convinced to pick up something else instead for expanded crit fishery. I went with a katana, and while it was fun, it wasn't the vision I had for the character when I set out to make them. Bastard swords taking a place of primacy is ay-okay in my book.

Same, I then was interrested in Rhoka Sword but wasn't allowed to. So I went Scimitar 'cause I needed the crit range since the campaign is supposed to be difficult and ennemies often have weakness to crit >.>

I'm glad that in PF2 you'll have more choices overall.

Scarab Sages

In 1E, I ran a Kapenia Dancer and a Mindblade that used an Earthbreaker (or warhammer, if he needed spell combat). The crit-fishing build was popular because of the huge damage numbers, but that wasn't necessary for the class to be good. There was enough flexibility in the class to be good at other styles of play. I'm not seeing that in the 2E version. it feels like crits are the only thing the class cares about now.


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Tbh, I'm not sure I dislike the idea of encouraging magi to pump str. I really disliked that the 1e magus was so heavily skewed to light and agile magical duelist types (which, don't get me wrong, are awesome as heck) that doing anything str based for that "mage knight" feel was practically a trap.

With the current magus, there's reasons to play both; a dex focused playstyle still lets the slide magus get a d8 finesse weapon, so ultimately, you're trading off some damage for a defense boost, which isn't the worst trade.


Alchemic_Genius wrote:
With the current magus, there's reasons to play both; a dex focused playstyle still lets the slide magus get a d8 finesse weapon, so ultimately, you're trading off some damage for a defense boost, which isn't the worst trade.

There's no requirement for the one-handed weapon to be a finesse weapon, and it is better for a Slide caster to go STR over DEX purely because DEX doesn't offer them anything but Reflex Saves (and they lose out on their Medium Armor).

That's more or less the point Unicore is making. The only path worth going DEX is Shooting Star and that's by extension of being a ranged attacker.


I don't view that as an issue tbf


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Martialmasters wrote:
I don't view that as an issue tbf

If STR Magus wasn't an option, it would matter to you.

Why isn't it allowed for others to feel that DEX not being an option is a problem?

Especially because the original Magus was primarily DEX based.

Do I want them to go back to PF1 DEX dependency for Magus? No, and it's already pretty heavily departed from it with the system changes as it is.

But acting like DEX shouldn't be supported at all just because STR is viable as a choice now? Seems pretty tone-deaf to me.

In short, if you didn't like the Magus DEX restrictions from PF1, I agree they were unfair, but this isn't some necessary "revenge" that needs to happen so that DEX based Magus is no longer going to be fulfilled in the concept.

There were several archetypes that heavily focused on finesse based fighting, so those saying DEX can't have its place in the current melee Magus are basically forsaking all the original PF1 options that were available to support that because "I hated that you had to go DEX, so now it's DEX's turn to suffer!"


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Midnightoker wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
I don't view that as an issue tbf

If STR Magus wasn't an option, it would matter to you.

Why isn't it allowed for others to feel that DEX not being an option is a problem?

Especially because the original Magus was primarily DEX based.

Do I want them to go back to PF1 DEX dependency for Magus? No, and it's already pretty heavily departed from it with the system changes as it is.

But acting like DEX shouldn't be supported at all just because STR is viable as a choice now? Seems pretty tone-deaf to me.

Because in order to do it your trying to lower the effectiveness of what I'm interested in as compensation.

This is more of a dex issue them a Magus issue from looking at this thread.

Dex is supported via comet style and the fact that you have the option at all. You may lose in damage but you gain +2-4 to your reflex save, stealth, thievery and acrobatics skills. That is far from nothing, only skill a str Magus excels at is Athletics.

Given the tight math and the fact that reflex is not a primary save of the Magus I think you are vastly devaluing what it can offer.


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Wouldn't be as big of a deal if spellstrike could land reliably


Martialmasters wrote:
That is far from nothing, only skill a str Magus excels at is Athletics.

Reflex is certainly not worth nothing.

If you want to say Reflex Save is worth more than Athletics Checks and STR to damage, then not really. Especially when they have an entire Feat line dedicated to being targeted with spells (Spell Parry, which again, does not require finesse/dex).

I find it a little funny to say "Reflex is worth way more than you think!" in the same sentence you state Athletics isn't a big deal.

And "+2/4" isn't even remotely true. It's a difference of 2. You can never afford to dump DEX entirely even with Medium armor and get your toted "18AC" that's so important.

WWHsmackdown wrote:
spellstrike

Maybe. But it depends on the new form things take. The more attacks there are, the more STR is going to be emphasized.


Midnightoker wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
That is far from nothing, only skill a str Magus excels at is Athletics.

Reflex is certainly not worth nothing.

If you want to say Reflex Save is worth more than Athletics Checks and STR to damage, then not really. Especially when they have an entire Feat line dedicated to being targeted with spells (Spell Parry, which again, does not require finesse/dex).

I find it a little funny to say "Reflex is worth way more than you think!" in the same sentence you state Athletics isn't a big deal.

And "+2/4" isn't even remotely true. It's a difference of 2. You can never afford to dump DEX entirely even with Medium armor and get your toted "18AC" that's so important.

WWHsmackdown wrote:
spellstrike
Maybe. But it depends on the new form things take. The more attacks there are, the more STR is going to be emphasized.

I mean, there are ways for a Magus who wants to dump dex entirely to get away with it, either via the armor proficiency feat or via archetypes.


Midnightoker wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
That is far from nothing, only skill a str Magus excels at is Athletics.

Reflex is certainly not worth nothing.

If you want to say Reflex Save is worth more than Athletics Checks and STR to damage, then not really. Especially when they have an entire Feat line dedicated to being targeted with spells (Spell Parry, which again, does not require finesse/dex).

I find it a little funny to say "Reflex is worth way more than you think!" in the same sentence you state Athletics isn't a big deal.

And "+2/4" isn't even remotely true. It's a difference of 2. You can never afford to dump DEX entirely even with Medium armor and get your toted "18AC" that's so important.

WWHsmackdown wrote:
spellstrike
Maybe. But it depends on the new form things take. The more attacks there are, the more STR is going to be emphasized.

I didn't say it was worth more. But it is worth enough to be a valid choice. Especially if you wanted to invest into acrobatics, stealth and thievery.

I said Athletics is the only thing for skills str gets, I don't believe I said it insinuated it was weak. Definitely not I love that skill.

The difference is 2 at level 1. Because a str Magus doesn't need to boost it's dex beyond 14 (possibly 12) so a Magus that doesn't invest in strength Wich is realistic given cantrips as ranged options will have much less in their reflex save than a eventual 22 dex Magus. Wich is also notable since reflex is not a strong save for Magus.


Ventnor wrote:


I mean, there are ways for a Magus who wants to dump dex entirely to get away with it, either via the armor proficiency feat or via archetypes.

And yet there are no ways for a Magus to make up the difference that DEX melee has against the STR build!

That's exactly my point.

And if you want to consider Heavy Armor in the equation, Reflex Save becomes a total non-issue due to Bulwark.

At which point there really is no reason to go DEX.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:


I mean, there are ways for a Magus who wants to dump dex entirely to get away with it, either via the armor proficiency feat or via archetypes.

And yet there are no ways for a Magus to make up the difference that DEX melee has against the STR build!

That's exactly my point.

And if you want to consider Heavy Armor in the equation, Reflex Save becomes a total non-issue due to Bulwark.

At which point there really is no reason to go DEX.

That is again a dex argument far more than it is a Magus argument.


I'm ok with dex being a suboptimal choice. Coming from 5e it's refreshing to see strength have actual value


WWHsmackdown wrote:
I'm ok with dex being a suboptimal choice. Coming from 5e it's refreshing to see strength have actual value

So you derive STR being good because DEX is a bad option?

The value of STR does not change because DEX gets Feat/Class support that it doesn't currently have.

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