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I mean, there are ways for a Magus who wants to dump dex entirely to get away with it, either via the armor proficiency feat or via archetypes.And yet there are no ways for a Magus to make up the difference that DEX melee has against the STR build!
That's exactly my point.
And if you want to consider Heavy Armor in the equation, Reflex Save becomes a total non-issue due to Bulwark.
At which point there really is no reason to go DEX.
Eh. I could see several character builds that would want to focus on Dexterity anyway. An Assassin Magus for example, who prefers to start out encounters with ambushes. Or a Dancer Magus, who uses the acrobat archetype abilities to make sure they're perfectly positioned for a striking spell. A shadowdancer magus could be a rather fun thing to play too.
In the end, I don't think there's going to be a "one true way" to play a magus. And if someone insists that there is, kick them out of your life. You don't need the toxicity they bring.
I'm ok with dex being a suboptimal choice. Coming from 5e it's refreshing to see strength have actual valueSo you derive STR being good because DEX is a bad option?
The value of STR does not change because DEX gets Feat/Class support that it doesn't currently have.
Can we give it new support as opposed to taking support away? That would be nice.
But then, Wich feats specifically cater more towards strength over DEX? Not factoring in the simple truth of more damage?
I’m not sure what is being taken away?
One person mentioned slide casting being dex only. As an example. Or spell parry being dex Magus only some how
In the end, I don't think there's going to be a "one true way" to play a magus. And if someone insists that there is, kick them out of your life. You don't need the toxicity they bring.
It's not so much "there's only one true way" as it is an issue of option support.
Let me put it to you this way, Sustaining Steel, only way that Magus can realistically support a Two-Handed weapon right now. Why? Because the other two Class Paths are completely incompatible with the weapons due to the restrictions they impose on weapon choice itself.
Thus the 2-handed "option" is actually a false option. It's really a 2h restriction that applies to them specifically. Without the Class Path limitations, Dimensional Slide would be able to use them just fine.
But there is at least one option to support the concept of using a 2h (albeit, its more of removing it from the other options).
As far as your comment on Archetypes, one could just as easily have made the same argument for the Medium Armor Magus, but hey.
This is literally a game of keep away. If the shoe was on the other foot, the entire crew discounting the loss of DEX options would be railing on the lack of STR options.
No one is asking to take away the toys, just that they be distributed evenly so everyone can play the Magus they want to play.
DEX style Magus archetypes:
1. Bladed Scarf Dancer
2. Esoteric
3. Greensting Slayer
4. Kensai
5. Mindblade
6. Puppet Master
7. Sigilus
8. Spire Defender
9. Staff Magus
That's 9 respective Archetypes that use either Light or No Armor for the entirety of their career (some also enforce a particular weapon that fosters DEX).
Now is it everyone's position that all those archetypes, which in PF2 Archetypes of this nature are generally converted to Class Feats, should be put out to pasture and not supported?
All so STR Magus can feel superior? Seems pretty unfair.
I’m not sure what is being taken away?One person mentioned slide casting being dex only. As an example. Or spell parry being dex Magus only some how
To state that was requested is a bit unfair.
What was requested was support, I just pointed out how Slide needs a nerf in general.
A Class Feat or several other things could solve the problem.
I think you are assuming a lot here.
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Slide is not as good as you think it is in comparison to the other two in actual play. It's more interesting on its own sure. But not more powerful.
Slide is not as good as you think it is in comparison to the other two in actual play. It's more interesting on its own sure. But not more powerful.
I really think you should think about making blanket statements purely on your own perspective of what's good as if it were an absolute truth.
Slide is literally the only Class Path that allows Striking Spell to be used with any amount of movement. Multiple people across numerous threads have said "All Magus should get Slide" due to the lack of options they have when using a core class feature.
It's a matter of being able to actually use the action economy that Slide enables.
Regardless, how strong Slide is not relevant to my current point, which is that DEX is not supported.
You don't get to make grand dictations about the value of abilities and assume all others will take is as gospel.
I think you are assuming a lot here.
I'll quote you:
"I don't view that as an issue tbf" - In response to stating the STR having an advantage.
Here's another person:
"I'm ok with dex being a suboptimal choice."
Where's the assumption? That's what you both said.
Slide is literally the only Class Path that allows Striking Spell to be used with any amount of movement.
Literally? I must have imagined my Sustaining Steel Magus casting Message with Striking Spell, moving and striking with my maul.
Yes I don't view it as an issue if str having an advantage *in damage*.
You massively undersell sustaining steel. While yes it's less likely to spell strike every round. It does so much damage and do much burst to make a giant instinct barbarian weep.
But can we walk this back a little as your feeling pretty heated.
I don't want to take away what limited material we currently have just got it to be pigeon holed into dex Magus.
If slide casting was finesse weapon only I'd be incredibly sad because then there would be no synthesis for one handed non finesse Magus.
And if slide needs to be base that's fine. But after playing all 3 it's not head and shoulders above sustaining steel and does do less damage.
I am actually for making slide base if people think it needs to be.
And I'm not against a dex Magus synthesis (I'd argue comet is one but I gather you want a finesse melee weapon)
So instead of lamenting things, why don't we come up with a dex synthesis? Why not come out with an idea that doesn't remove a wider selection of weapons from the available useable options? Because I don't want to go back to pf1e where you were laughed at for using a long sword instead.
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Slide is literally the only Class Path that allows Striking Spell to be used with any amount of movement.Literally? I must have imagined my Sustaining Steel Magus casting Message with Striking Spell, moving and striking with my maul.
It ain't going to work with an actual on-level spell and you don't gain any intrinsic benefits to doing this over a normal Strike besides a few bonus HP.
Don't get me wrong, it's not nothing, but acting like somehow the action economy is saved because of one little cheesy interaction is a bit much.
I don't even have a problem with Sustaining Steel, nor am I calling it bad, but I am still saying that Slide is better for enabling use of the action economy. Message doesn't change that, Message is literally costing you an action for HP, you lose the damage.
Heck, if you slide away from an enemy target and avoid an attack, boom, you've just saved more damage than Sustaining Steel.
EDIT: Actually just thought about it, Shield is probably a better use of the action than Message simply because the bonus to AC is going to translate to more total DPR reduced..
You massive undervalue Sustaining Steel
There you go again..
I really don't appreciate your condescending candor with "Slide is not as good as you think it is" as if for some reason you are the authority on actual play or what is balanced or isn't balanced and that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If you think you've established some kind of "superior" opinion by any nature, I'd love to hear why your opinion is so much more valid than others in your first playtest. I seemed to have missed the memo.
Slide is literally the only Class Path that allows Striking Spell to be used with any amount of movement.Literally? I must have imagined my Sustaining Steel Magus casting Message with Striking Spell, moving and striking with my maul.It ain't going to work with an actual on-level spell and you don't gain any intrinsic benefits to doing this over a normal Strike besides a few bonus HP.
Don't get me wrong, it's not nothing, but acting like somehow the action economy is saved because of one little cheesy interaction is a bit much.
I don't even have a problem with Sustaining Steel, nor am I calling it bad, but I am still saying that Slide is better.
Heck, if you slide away from the target and avoid an attack, boom, you've just saved more damage than Sustaining Steel.
You massive undervalue Sustaining SteelThere you go again..
I really don't appreciate your condescending candor with "Slide is not as good as you think it is" as if for some reason you are the authority on actual play or what is balanced or isn't balanced and that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If you think you've established some kind of "superior" opinion by any nature, I'd love to hear why your opinion is so much more valid than others in your first playtest. I seemed to have missed the memo.
You also dealt less damage because you only swung once where the sustaining steel stuck around to potentially hit with another d10/12 strike probably with energized strikes and potentially with the added bespell feats.
There is a trade off.
Regardless your just angry that nobody is sharing your pov and don't like the words I use. I even offered to walk this back and discuss what a good finesse synthesis might be so as not to invalidate all non finesse one handed weapons from the Magus playspace . But no you crop the one thing and jump down my throat. Whatever.
Regardless your just angry that nobody is sharing your pov and don't like the words I use.
Not at all. I'm not angry that people favor the STR Magus, I'm frustrated that someone is talking down to me as if they know better.
You don't get to blame me for your words. Your words are your responsibility.
But no you crop the one thing and jump down my throat. Whatever.
You said "I made a lot of assumptions", if you didn't want a rebuttal to your accusation, then I would probably have avoided making one.
Regardless, I'd rather not continue this.
It ain't going to work with an actual on-level spell and you don't gain any intrinsic benefits to doing this over a normal Strike besides a few bonus HP.
When you use the word literally, you mean it's a fact. It sure wasn't a fact: that's my point. It wasn't literal.
Don't get me wrong, it's not nothing, but acting like somehow the action economy is saved because of one little cheesy interaction is a bit much.
I'm don't know why it's not: I keep my synthesis bonus and can attack + move. Seems like it to me.
Also, cheesy isn't an objective thing: it doesn't seem cheesy in the least to me. Nothing hints that you are required to use an attack spell, only a targeted spell. Heck, I could heal someone if I wanted to beat someone up first. Now if you feel it cheesy, that's cool but don't assume it's a universal truth.
I don't even have a problem with Sustaining Steel, nor am I calling it bad, but I am still saying that Slide is better.
AND I 100% disagree: Slide is going to have LOTS of rounds where it gets 100% NO benefit from the synthesis as they are already in the best position. Sustaining Steel can get it's benefit each and every round.
Heck, if you slide away from the target and avoid an attack, boom, you've just saved more damage than Sustaining Steel.
This assumes the foe wastes an action to attack you or cares that it wastes it's 3rd action. And it takes away allies flank. It in NO way it guarantees is saves you any damage, let alone more. It's more a 'nifty trick' than an awesome bonus IMO.
EDIT: Actually just thought about it, Shield is probably a better use of the action than Message simply because the bonus to AC is going to translate to more total DPR reduced..
Message doesn't trigger Spell Strike and nothing prevents you using Message AND shield if you wan to do tanky. Spell Strike, Message, Shield, Strike. 1/2 level hp, +1 AC, shield block AND you still get a Strike.
Regardless your just angry that nobody is sharing your pov and don't like the words I use.Not at all. I'm not angry that people favor the STR Magus, I'm frustrated that someone is talking down to me as if they know better.
You don't get to blame me for your words. Your words are your responsibility.
But no you crop the one thing and jump down my throat. Whatever.You said "I made a lot of assumptions", if you didn't want a rebuttal to your accusation, then I would probably have avoided making one.
Regardless, I'd rather not continue this.
If you feel I've talked down to you I'm sorry. But that perception is an issue for you and you alone to deal with.
If I was talking down to someone I wouldn't condescnd, I'd just flat out name call. Trust me.
Currently there is no feats that directly support either playstyle because no feats lock you out of using one of the other. Even sustaining steel has access to at least one finesse two handed weapon. I like that open ended design.
But really, pf2e went to great pains to limit dex builds purposely. I do think bulwark steps on their toes too much for what it's worth.
This thread isn’t even about slide and it was a one off comment about where I think the balance could be helped to incentivize DEX. We’ll agree to disagree on the value of slide.
On the actual matter at hand:
All the DEX based archetypes, 9 in total, are not going to feel supported unless something changes for DEX builds on the Magus (btw none of the ones listed are inherently ranged). As someone that played a lot of Magus, I’d prefer to have some of those themes return rather than die.
Stated my case now I’m out. Carry on.
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It's like the cheapest offensive archetype in the game because it has two Skill Feats (one of which shouldn't even really be a Skill Feat IMO) meaning you can get in and out with one Class Feat.
More like a few more points of damage and +1 AC or an archetype and 5ft of speed - sentinel gives you full plate at the cost of your archetype. I guess you can retrain a lot to ensure it won't cost you the ability to get a casting archetype as well (though it will probably cost your 10th feat ultimately).
It’s pretty cheap class feat wise but there’s still a level lock. If you take sentinel at 2, you can’t take another archetype until 6 because you need to take the level 4 and 6 skill feats. That makes it rather difficult to fit in a casting MC archetype as well without retraining. Ultimately my plan went
Take sentinel at 2
Retrain at level 8 to Basic Witch/Wizard Ded at 2, Basic casting at 4, Basic arcana/at 6 and sentinel at 8
Retrain at level 8 to push sentinel to 10, replace the level 8 feat with breadth and free up the level 6 feat.
I do not feel like finesse magus needs a lot of support. Dex is nice enough and there are feats already available that make Dex based characters effective. That said, I wouldn't mind if they added a few options that took advantage of a high Dex and/or high Acrobatics.
I do dislike how in PF1 the Dex based magus so strongly dominated the characters I saw in play. I do not think the two options need exact parity, but I do want both options to be viable.
So far I've only had time for one playtest of the Magus and I used a Strength based Slide Synthesis Magus. I probably should have done a Sustaining Steel Reach magus given what I am finding on these boards. If I find time for another playtest session, that is the route I would likely take.
In spite of having Slide, there were several rounds where I didn't have any reason to move. I do think the couple of extra hit points a round would have helped, might have prevented me from feeling forced to allow my shield spell to bust.
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What about creating Magus subclasses that have tailored benefits, like the Rogue?
For instance, if the Slide Caster gets Dex and an ability similar to the Thief to apply Dex to both attack and damage? The Shooting Star could get a bonus to Int and focus more on the spellcasting, while Sustaining Steel is the Str bonus Magus build focusing more on the 2-handed weapon's damage
Honestly I would prefer that each Synthesis support more than a single type of build. Although I would like the Magus to have an Int option, I would not want that tied to a single Synthesis.
There are things they could do to broaden the current ones.
Shooting Star would strongly benefit from Quick Draw in order to support thrown weapon builds. I would have to look at what else could be done there, but it would be nice if it allowed for that.
Right now Slide works with either Strength or Dexterity builds. Most of this thread has been about issues people have with the Dex option, so forcing the synthesis to use that is unlikely to be seen as an improvement.
I would like if Sustaining Steel allowed for Sword and Board build. Right now it doesn't work unless you are using a two-handed weapon.
Since wide-spread availability of Dex to Damage in PF1 was seen by many as a mistake, I doubt that they will provide support for that on the Magus.
I would like if Sustaining Steel allowed for Sword and Board build. Right now it doesn't work unless you are using a two-handed weapon.
It can work for a dex build if you wished: Spiked Chain, Elven Curve Blade and Bladed Diabolo are all 2 handed and finesse: so it's got 2 builds. I don't really see taping on a shield build to it.
Maybe they can add a Sword and Board build Synthesis like spellstrike uses your shield attacks, blocking with your shield can trigger your stored spell and the level of the spell adds to the shields hardness.
I’m not sure what is being taken away?
Midnightoker advocated for removing medium armor as a general class proficiency several times in the last page. (Though also noted it was more a personal opinion.)
In general, I'd agree with others that adding options for finesse feel is better than incentivizing removing options for chunky feel, and don't find those options strictly necessary. Magi don't get armor specialization, so that particular aspect of light or no armor isn't a drawback as it would be for Fighters and Champions, and whether Dexterity skills and a save bump or higher damage and maneuvers is preferable just seems like it'd be down to character concept and personal taste.