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More I think about it, more builds I've made, the only remotely unique and possibly useful one is the one krispy built. And that's if the eidolon can battle medicine the martials while the summoner can battle medicine the ranged. Even then.No need for Battle Medicine on the Eidolon.
2 action heal can cover the Battle Line. I can battle medicine myself to heal the Eidolon.
Once I get Doctors visitation coverage and efficiency is even better.
Yeah and that functionally saves actions for a healer. Especially with a staff of healing to help out. But that's kinda my point. You found a niche. It might not be massive but it's notable. I have yet to be able to figure out or find another one that has a chance at convincing me for the inclusion of the summoner in a 4 man party.
Right now I can see it being a 5th wheel type character due to its low power I'd barely have to make any adjustments to encounters most times, at least the combat ones.
Summoner bard is also legit, as summoner actually has superior action economy for compositions.
... its debatable if it would be an issue if the best summoners all took archetypes.
I don't find it debatable. I find it means they the current feats are lacking. A multicass should be because you have a specific concept that the base class cannot realize on its own. Not that getting another classes feats at half the rate is better than your core class feats.
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More I think about it, more builds I've made, the only remotely unique and possibly useful one is the one krispy built.
I'd argue that it's not so much workable because of summoner but the archetype she's using and non-class feats. Slap the same list of feats on another class and I think you come out ahead of the summoner.
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More I think about it, more builds I've made, the only remotely unique and possibly useful one is the one krispy built.I'd argue that it's not so much workable because of summoner but the archetype she's using and non-class feats. Slap the same list of feats on another class and I think you come out ahead of the summoner.
Other classes don't have the action economy or spellcasting on top of Martial efficacy.
My Cleric was probably technically a better healer while her font wasn't depleted, but she was less mobile and had crappier offensive combat options.
The Cleric would have also been less flexible with Medic feats...
The key is this - a Cleric Healer would be doing less while standing around waiting to heal. The Summoner Medic is fighting competently (if not as well as a true martial) while waiting around for a need for healing to show up, and when it does she still has the action efficiency to drop exactly the right amount of healing and still have an action or two left over to keep fighting.
Everyone else essentially has to stop what theyre doing to do the healing thing - reposition, provoke aoos, all sorts of complications.
My summoner is in position to do both, and doesnt have to abandon either position to lean into the other role.
EDIT : she also has the huge advantage of having multiple exploration roles and getting to roll many checks twice as many times as everyone else, essentially taking the best result for many skills. Thats huge.
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Other classes don't have the action economy or spellcasting on top of Martial efficacy.
This doesn't make sense: you're behind other pet classes for action and at best you equal other casters for actions with the limitation on 3 action spells if you use Tandem Action. While a pet does less single hit damage, it gets 2 attacks while the character gets 2 actions: this is something that summoner can't do as Tandem Action breaks it up into 1 separate action for each and then 2 more so you can't have your pet attack twice and use a 2 round heal since it's 2 separate single actions.
Add into that that Mature Animal Companion allows a free stride or strike if not comanded and it looks even worse for the summoner.
Everyone else essentially has to stop what theyre doing to do the healing thing - reposition, provoke aoos, all sorts of complications.
So too does the summoner. How does the summoner battle medicine someone without moving? They can do it on themselves but so can everyone else: if you want to do it on a teammate you got to move. So as a healer, even a secondary, you aren't avoiding anything.
My summoner is in position to do both, and doesnt have to abandon either position to lean into the other role.
Pretty much like everyone else. You get a benefit on healing yourself and hat's about that. A druid can get an animal companion and do the same leaning but with more healing to back it up AND only needs to buff their pet once instead of every round [magic fang].
EDIT : she also has the huge advantage of having multiple exploration roles and getting to roll many checks twice as many times as everyone else, essentially taking the best result for many skills. Thats huge.
Questionable at best with the general lack of stat bonuses [or even minuses], you're rolling straight on level for the roll so if there are crit chances, you end up in a worse situation for those extra rolls. Add to that that it can't use skill feats and it can't even reliably aid you for a lot of levels. IMO, it's a lot like having to save twice: it's more 2 chances to fail than to chances to succeed. Also an animal companion does the same for Perception, Intimidation, Stealth, and Survival
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This doesn't make sense: you're behind other pet classes for action and at best you equal other casters for actions with the limitation on 3 action spells if you use Tandem Action. While a pet does less single hit damage, it gets 2 attacks while the character gets 2 actions: this is something that summoner can't do as Tandem Action breaks it up into 1 separate action for each and then 2 more so you can't have your pet attack twice and use a 2 round heal since it's 2 separate single actions.
First, the action limitations you're describing (unable to do a 2 action and have eidolon do 1+1 actions) are unlikely to survive to print. Thats already being seriously considered for viability and update, and unlikely to negatively impact our current power distribution.
Second... I can still do a 2 action activity, like cast heal, and then a 1 action and have my eidolon do a 1 action. That's hardly likely to be an issue finding something useful to do.
So too does the summoner. How does the summoner battle medicine someone without moving? They can do it on themselves but so can everyone else: if you want to do it on a teammate you got to move. So as a healer, even a secondary, you aren't avoiding anything.
If only there was some sort of feat that further enhanced my action economy and combined moving and battle medicine, and Summoner was a class that was intentionally designed without Flourish abilities.
Oh wait, both those things are true. Doctors visitation exists, and Mark has indicated they're avoiding Flourishes.
Also, as I noted originally, Heal is a fantastic ranged healing option for targets other than the Eidolon.
Pretty much like everyone else. You get a benefit on healing yourself and hat's about that.
Yes, pretty much like all the other classes who get 4 actions a turn without significant limitations, top level spells, and Martial level proficiencies.
...which were those again?
Also, the skill benefits are pretty undeniably huge. People minimizing roll twice are seriously stretching, as the chances of critical failure for skills you are at least trained in are minimal and Eidolons will be strong in at least four stats associated with skill checks, as they have no strong incentive to invest in Con and start with 16s in Str and Dex (currently). This means that not only is the coverage of attributes for Summoners just straight better than anyone else, you're way more likely to increase your overall success chance significantly for any check you are trained in than you are to increase your chance for critical failures.
I dont want to play a Summoner to spend twice as many actions to do the same effect. But worse since the eidolon has no skill feats.
I'm not suggesting that you should be spending twice as many actions on these things.
I'm suggesting that a whole TON of skill checks occur in Exploration and Downtime modes, where the lowered action expectations mean that the Eidolon is effectively its own character and gets to do its own thing, roll its own reactive perception checks, etc.
There are modes other than Encounter, and in those modes an Eidolon is a powerhouse.
The Eidolon does not get free actions during downtime or exploration. They still share your action.
Why would you even think they get free actions when the class clearly says otherwise?
Please see the thread where Mark explained how this works during Exploration.
Essentially, outside of combat you are using one or less action per "round". That means that the Summoners action can always be Act Together without being stressed, and therefore you're essentially doubling your out of combat actions at zero cost.
I'm not making this up, its how it's apparently exactly how its intended to work.
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Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.
Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.
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Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.
Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.
And just straight up massively more powerful, as it's literally two character's worth of hp with no drawbacks.
Thats not balanced.
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Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.
Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.
And just straight up massively more powerful, as it's literally two character's worth of hp with no drawbacks.
Thats not balanced.
Last I checked a animal companion is a d8 creature? Maybe d6. And a ranger is a d10 class. Witch amounts to 10+ con and 6/8+con worth in classes. That's not even discussing a barbarian taking the beast master dedication.
And I do not believe the druid with animal companion is the fairer option just because you have 4 slots.
So a 6hp summoner with 10hp eidolon is not past the curve by any stretch of the imagination. Because you are not a full caster, but part of you is technically a full martial, just without any feats.
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Last I checked a animal companion is a d8 creature? Maybe d6. And a ranger is a d10 class. Witch amounts to 10+ con and 6/8+con worth in classes. That's not even discussing a barbarian taking the beast master dedication.And I do not believe the druid with animal companion is the fairer option just because you have 4 slots.
So a 6hp summoner with 10hp eidolon is not past the curve by any stretch of the imagination. Because you are not a full caster, but part of you is technically a full martial, just without any feats.
This position relies on the false premise that an Eidolon is in any way equivalent to an Animal Companion.
As has been repeatedly stated, an Eidolon has capabilities that are essentially equivalent to a player characters. It is not limited in actions like a Animal Companion. It is offensively and defensively superior to an animal companion.
A seperate HP pool for an Eidolon would be like extra player character hitpoints, not inferior animal companion hitpoints.
It is not a useful comparison.
For Ranger and Druid an animal companion is optional and they are completely functional without one. The same for any class with the beast master. Eidolon is not and is integral to the summoner so how they are balanced together as the core of class are these two working together.
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Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.
Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.
And just straight up massively more powerful, as it's literally two character's worth of hp with no drawbacks.
Thats not balanced.
Last I checked a animal companion is a d8 creature? Maybe d6. And a ranger is a d10 class. Witch amounts to 10+ con and 6/8+con worth in classes. That's not even discussing a barbarian taking the beast master dedication.
And I do not believe the druid with animal companion is the fairer option just because you have 4 slots.
So a 6hp summoner with 10hp eidolon is not past the curve by any stretch of the imagination. Because you are not a full caster, but part of you is technically a full martial, just without any feats.
Would the life link have an action cost? If not, it just sounds like you're building a frontliner with d16 Class Hit Die and 2x Con, which is much different from an Animal Companion who regularly runs max HP somewhere between 50-75% that of a Martial.
@krispy do you know which thread the Seifter quote about exploration is in? Its how I assumed it worked but the confirmation is always welcome.
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Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.
Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.
And just straight up massively more powerful, as it's literally two character's worth of hp with no drawbacks.
Thats not balanced.
It's balanced by the fact that you're prone to take on more damage than anybody else.
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Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.
Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.
And just straight up massively more powerful, as it's literally two character's worth of hp with no drawbacks.
Thats not balanced.
Last I checked a animal companion is a d8 creature? Maybe d6. And a ranger is a d10 class. Witch amounts to 10+ con and 6/8+con worth in classes. That's not even discussing a barbarian taking the beast master dedication.
And I do not believe the druid with animal companion is the fairer option just because you have 4 slots.
So a 6hp summoner with 10hp eidolon is not past the curve by any stretch of the imagination. Because you are not a full caster, but part of you is technically a full martial, just without any feats.
Would the life link have an action cost? If not, it just sounds like you're building a frontliner with d16 Class Hit Die and 2x Con, which is much different from an Animal Companion who regularly runs max HP somewhere between 50-75% that of a Martial.
@krispy do you know which thread the Seifter quote about exploration is in? Its how I assumed it worked but the confirmation is always welcome.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436gn?Exploration-and-the-Summoner
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436gn?Exploration-and-the-Summoner
Thanks!
Also notable is his opinion that Tandem Move would, in fact, let you double up on strenuous exploration activities even - though that one is just opinion.
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This position relies on the false premise that an Eidolon is in any way equivalent to an Animal Companion.
Last I checked a animal companion is a d8 creature? Maybe d6. And a ranger is a d10 class. Witch amounts to 10+ con and 6/8+con worth in classes. That's not even discussing a barbarian taking the beast master dedication.And I do not believe the druid with animal companion is the fairer option just because you have 4 slots.
So a 6hp summoner with 10hp eidolon is not past the curve by any stretch of the imagination. Because you are not a full caster, but part of you is technically a full martial, just without any feats.
just as yours is a false premise that the summoner is equivalent to a caster or a martial, it is not, by your own words in fact, equivalent.
As has been repeatedly stated, an Eidolon has capabilities that are essentially equivalent to a player characters. It is not limited in actions like a Animal Companion. It is offensively and defensively superior to an animal companion.
ahh but i am not talking about soley an animal companion, i am talking about a ranger+animal companion. compared to a summoner+eidolon. a much fairer assessment, and takes into account the whole picture.
A seperate HP pool for an Eidolon would be like extra player character hitpoints, not inferior animal companion hitpoints.
It is not a useful comparison.
so is a wizard inferior because it has d6hp? or a cleric for d8? i assume the answer is no. so lets maybe not throw the word inferior around in this exact context.
but further, what happens to the animal companion the ranger has when the ranger falls unconcious? it doesnt go poof, and, roleplay, narratively speaking, wich is something you like to rely on in your arguments, a trained animal COMPANION would fight to protect your characters unconcious body, its not even a stretch by any means of the imagination. it doesnt just run away.
so, compare that to a weak, d6 body summoner with 4 slots at most, and the d10 eidolon who goes poof if you go unconcious.
its not overpowering in the slightest, its a realistic tradeoff between the ranger with a animal companion, the animal companion may be weaker than the eidolon but the ranger is stronger than the summoner, the summoner goes unconcious and the eidolon goes away, if the ranger goes unconcious the animal companion will still fight to protect its master.
any way you cut it, your view of it being overpowered doesnt hold up once you take into account the entire class compared to an entire class, not just eidolon to animal companion.
It's balanced by the fact that you're prone to take on more damage than anybody else.
This has not been borne out in most of the play reports I've seen.
Nothing I've seen indicates most summoners take significantly more damage than a martial character on a regular basis, and Summoners have martial character hp.
I'm sure Paizo will have a more complete picture, but I've seen nothing that indicates that the "Summoners take 60% more damage and deserve 60% more hp" scenario is factual.
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Would the life link have an action cost? If not, it just sounds like you're building a frontliner with d16 Class Hit Die and 2x Con, which is much different from an Animal Companion who regularly runs max HP somewhere between 50-75% that of a Martial.
You could have lifelink's function be restricted to a reaction or free action that triggers when the Eidolon's HP hits 0, i don't see why not.
It almost sounds like most of us are asking for a d16 frontliner, yes, but that's not really the case with how lifelink would function (compared to a shared HP pool) and with Summoner's specific vulnerabilities that are not present in other frontliners.
Right now Summoner has probably the worst defenses of any class because of the unique nature of the shared HP mechanic with the Eidolon.
Taking more hits on average, being dealt more damage than others, and the fact it will actively roll at disadvantage in quite a number of encounters.
Or you could be a 6HP caster that's able to lifelink the 10HP Eidolon the health it needs to tank the hit instead; a more flavorful and elegant solution in the mind of many.
Had they been playing a 6 HP per level class with a 6-8 HP per level Eidolon that demanifested when unconscious, they would have gone down and the fight probably would have been lost. This is even worse than just being an 8 HP druid in that scenario, as not only class HP important to survive but the animal companion can still act a little while he's dropped.
And just straight up massively more powerful, as it's literally two character's worth of hp with no drawbacks.
Thats not balanced.
Last I checked a animal companion is a d8 creature? Maybe d6. And a ranger is a d10 class. Witch amounts to 10+ con and 6/8+con worth in classes. That's not even discussing a barbarian taking the beast master dedication.
And I do not believe the druid with animal companion is the fairer option just because you have 4 slots.
So a 6hp summoner with 10hp eidolon is not past the curve by any stretch of the imagination. Because you are not a full caster, but part of you is technically a full martial, just without any feats.
Would the life link have an action cost? If not, it just sounds like you're building a frontliner with d16 Class Hit Die and 2x Con, which is much different from an Animal Companion who regularly runs max HP somewhere between 50-75% that of a Martial.
@krispy do you know which thread the Seifter quote about exploration is in? Its how I assumed it worked but the confirmation is always welcome.
my comment dont really factor in lifelink (wich i dont really care about) at wich point, a simple 8/8 split would suffice, and make it so you can heal the eidolon via lifelink but someone cannot just heal the eidolon otherwise, as its existence on this plane is dependant upon you and your life force.
or whatever fluff you may desire, but my main argument had little to do with lifelink existing at all.
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It's balanced by the fact that you're prone to take on more damage than anybody else.
This has not been borne out in most of the play reports I've seen.
Nothing I've seen indicates most summoners take significantly more damage than a martial character on a regular basis, and Summoners have martial character hp.
I'm sure Paizo will have a more complete picture, but I've seen nothing that indicates that the "Summoners take 60% more damage and deserve 60% more hp" scenario is factual.
It's been bourne out in a number of play reports i've seen.
I'm waiting to make my own thread discussing my experience playtesting Summoner so i can articulate the experience in more detail, but yes that's very much been my experience and the experience of others even after we crunched the numbers.
On average, in a 4-man party, you take around 20% more damage than anybody else on average simply because you are being hit more often than anybody else. That's not factoring in rolls where you are at disadvantage which would increase that number.
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First, the action limitations you're describing (unable to do a 2 action and have eidolon do 1+1 actions) are unlikely to survive to print. Thats already being seriously considered for viability and update, and unlikely to negatively impact our current power distribution.
What might happen after the playtest isn't part of the playtest, simple as that. I'm not evaluating what it might look like but what it actually does now.
Second... I can still do a 2 action activity, like cast heal, and then a 1 action and have my eidolon do a 1 action. That's hardly likely to be an issue finding something useful to do.
But is still can't access 3 action activities so it really isn't 4 actions per round free and clear. A caster with an animal companion at mature CAN do a 3 action activity while the companion does an action.
Doctors visitation exists
Which is totally meaningless as it's not part of the class: ANYONE can take it so how is this a win for the summoner?
Yes, pretty much like all the other classes who get 4 actions a turn without significant limitations, top level spells, and Martial level proficiencies.
Without significant limitations? You spend actions to keep damage up, you spend actions to increase protection and you spend actions to get the 4th action so ou can get it while using 3 round actions. IMO, those are pretty significant. If you aren't buffing, it's not really a 'martial' anymore. While a companion might not have the proficiency, the base class can give it's buffs with an actual duration. A normal caster has the lower level slots to toss an Resist Energy, Barkskin or Enlarge before you start a fight. It's not exactly an action win for the summon IMO.
Also, the skill benefits are pretty undeniably huge.
The only thing that's 'undeniable' is that we don't agree on this point. IMO it's not like it's an actual reroll but one at a significant disadvantage. SO I think you are overestimating it and you think I'm underestimating it. It seems we're at an impasse here.
will be strong in at least four stats associated with skill checks
What? You start with Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10 or Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10: boosts come every 5 levels so 1-4 the stat bonus is -1 to +1. Levels 5-9 it's +0 to +2. AT levels 10-14 it's +1 to +3... Now bonuses from tools means you'd have to buy 2 and would require hands to use... I'm NOT seeing the "strong", especially when they also can't use your skill feats. If they could use assurance, I could agree you have a leg up but without it? Not so much.
EDIT:
the chances of critical failure for skills you are at least trained in are minimal
If it's so minimal, people with assurance auto get it.
my comment dont really factor in lifelink (wich i dont really care about) at wich point, a simple 8/8 split would suffice, and make it so you can heal the eidolon via lifelink but someone cannot just heal the eidolon otherwise, as its existence on this plane is...
That's actually a really cool idea you have there, kinda like how Life Oracle's curse/healing works for itself; outside healing is penalized.
"In addition to the effects of your minor curse, you can't be healed by magical effects originating from other creatures."
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You might have better proficiencies in actual weapons, but as far as being a better combatant, not so much. You can't really wave around Eclipse Bursts while being Improved Invisibility like a Wizard, and you can't outheal or outlast a Cleric, which means you'll be out of stuff well before a Cleric is. While you're plugging away with cantrips just to skate by, Cleric is still dropping major healing/damaging bombs onto enemies, as a lot of your damage is tied to your limited spells.
What? I'm not plugging away with Cantrips - I have a martial proficiency Eidolon for damage.
I have 2/3 the spell slots of relevant top levels spells of non-wizard/sorcerer casters for when I need to push things, but I'm almost never going to be plugging away with cantrips.
and Monks/Rogues can still pick up Dedication spellcasting feats to have more spellcasting capabilities than you.They can have more level irrelevant spells than me, assuming I don't take the exact same options and have the same spells they do, plus two max level spell slots. None native spellcasters will ALWAYS lose out to a Summoner at the same level of investment in casting... and I STILL have a full Martial proficiencied Eidolon.
Same with Summoner; being twice as vulnerable as any other character with no meaningful or significant benefit defeats what others viewed as a big draw to the class. Being able to conjure creatures to fight for you because you are squishy and vulnerable is a flavor that is antithetical to the...The Twice as Vulnerable thing again. This is demonstrably untrue. You may have twice the bodies, but one of those bodies is the exact same durability of any caster and the other is the same as a Martial. Literally the only case you are more vulnerable at all to is AOE, and thats easy to mitigate with positioning.
I'm seriously not clear what the balance 'target' you're aiming for...
For some reason I thought this was in response to the Magus. I keep getting all the threads confused...
Either way, the Eidolon is not even better than an upgraded Animal companion in terms of effectiveness, and its special abilities aren't that great as well. Not to mention, Eidolon strike + Cantrip aren't mutually exclusive.
The dedication spellcasters can certainly be on par with your capabilities since they will have identical or better Save DCs and be only behind you in max spells by 1 level. By that point it's a comparison of base features, which is an Eidolon that is worse than actual summons because it hurts you when it gets hurt, or Sneak Attack plus a crapton of skill feats, or Flurry of Blows with some Ki shenanigans.
There are more than AoEs that work against you both. Conditions, MAP, multiple attackers, the list goes on. As I said before, it's like playing chess with a handicap. With more Kings to Checkmate, your options become severely limited as a result. As a comparison, Wizards are to Batman as Summoners are to Bobby Fisher.
my comment dont really factor in lifelink (wich i dont really care about) at wich point, a simple 8/8 split would suffice, and make it so you can heal the eidolon via lifelink but someone cannot just heal the eidolon otherwise, as its existence on this plane is...
That's actually a really cool idea you have there, kinda like how Life Oracle's curse/healing works for itself; outside healing is penalized.
"In addition to the effects of your minor curse, you can't be healed by magical effects originating from other creatures."
was kinda my direction with it yeah, but you have a second body that can be healed by normal means at least.
sure you lose out on krispy's sexy 2 action heal yourself and the front line puppet but it is something.
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What might happen after the playtest isn't part of the playtest, simple as that. I'm not evaluating what it might look like but what it actually does now.
Which is weird, because the version that exists now is irrelevant long term.
Flaws that currently exist but won't in the final version are ephemeral at best.
It doesn't matter if the current versions action economy is slightly too limited (even though its by far the most open that currently exists) if we have reason to believe the final version will be even better.
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What might happen after the playtest isn't part of the playtest, simple as that. I'm not evaluating what it might look like but what it actually does now.
Which is weird, because the version that exists now is irrelevant long term.
Flaws that currently exist but won't in the final version are ephemeral at best.
It doesn't matter if the current versions action economy is slightly too limited (even though its by far the most open that currently exists) if we have reason to believe the final version will be even better.
my fighter has better action economy
my monk way better
no not by getting 4 actions across two characters, but by being able to do more in combat more often with said actions that doesnt amount to move/attac/boost.
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Yes, pretty much like all the other classes who get 4 actions a turn without significant limitations, top level spells, and Martial level proficiencies.Without significant limitations? You spend actions to keep damage up, you spend actions to increase protection and you spend actions to get the 4th action so ou can get it while using 3 round actions. IMO, those are pretty significant. If you aren't buffing, it's not really a 'martial' anymore. While a companion might not have the proficiency, the base class can give it's buffs with an actual duration. A normal caster has the lower level slots to toss an Resist Energy, Barkskin or Enlarge before you start a fight. It's not exactly an action win for the summon IMO.
tbh, I don't really see the lack of low-level spell slots as that big of a loss. If you really want a particular low level buff handy at a higher level, wands are still on the table, and likely staves too. Admittedly I have only run a party of 4 Summoners atm, but I do admit that the idea of being able to have the entire party chain Haste on each other at lv 8 boss start is very appealing to me. Weird jank from a party of 4 of X class obviously isn't going to be coming up in every game, but the party of 8 mediocre characters does seem to be doing the 4-man party's job well enough at the moment, and will be in a pretty good spot as long as they implement the suggested change to Act Together.
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Weird jank from a party of 4 of X class obviously isn't going to be coming up in every game, but the party of 8 mediocre characters does seem to be doing the 4-man party's job well enough at the moment, and will be in a pretty good spot as long as they implement the suggested change to Act Together.
It may be weird jank, but its important weird jank.
Id like to see a party of 4 Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers or Bards attempt the same thing.
I think the Summoners versatility will really shine by comparison.
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What might happen after the playtest isn't part of the playtest, simple as that. I'm not evaluating what it might look like but what it actually does now.
Which is weird, because the version that exists now is irrelevant long term.
Flaws that currently exist but won't in the final version are ephemeral at best.
It doesn't matter if the current versions action economy is slightly too limited (even though its by far the most open that currently exists) if we have reason to believe the final version will be even better.
And I find your opinion odd as we were asked to give review of what we where given and not on what we think will be changed. I think it sheer folly to not point ut issues because 'I'm sure there isn't going to be an issue'. For instance, there where things that they changed AFTER the alchemist was first printed so it's not like everything gets caught and that's even assuming it's flagged as a problem.
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And I find your opinion odd as we were asked to give review of what we where given and not on what we think will be changed. I think it sheer folly to not point ut issues because 'I'm sure there isn't going to be an issue'. For instance, there where things that they changed AFTER the alchemist was first printed so it's not like everything gets caught and that's even assuming it's flagged as a problem.What might happen after the playtest isn't part of the playtest, simple as that. I'm not evaluating what it might look like but what it actually does now.
Which is weird, because the version that exists now is irrelevant long term.
Flaws that currently exist but won't in the final version are ephemeral at best.
It doesn't matter if the current versions action economy is slightly too limited (even though its by far the most open that currently exists) if we have reason to believe the final version will be even better.
Yes, but no ones talking about typos here. Were talking about changes that have been acknowledged are in examination for alteration because people want them.
It seems pretty safe to assume at this point some change is happening to Act Together, unless that change violates balance limits imposed by the designers.
Its not exactly a dangerous bet to make.
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Weird jank from a party of 4 of X class obviously isn't going to be coming up in every game, but the party of 8 mediocre characters does seem to be doing the 4-man party's job well enough at the moment, and will be in a pretty good spot as long as they implement the suggested change to Act Together.It may be weird jank, but its important weird jank.
Id like to see a party of 4 Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers or Bards attempt the same thing.
I think the Summoners versatility will really shine by comparison.
inb4 the best summoner party is just "Oops, All Archetype Summoners"
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And I find your opinion odd as we were asked to give review of what we where given and not on what we think will be changed. I think it sheer folly to not point ut issues because 'I'm sure there isn't going to be an issue'. For instance, there where things that they changed AFTER the alchemist was first printed so it's not like everything gets caught and that's even assuming it's flagged as a problem.What might happen after the playtest isn't part of the playtest, simple as that. I'm not evaluating what it might look like but what it actually does now.
Which is weird, because the version that exists now is irrelevant long term.
Flaws that currently exist but won't in the final version are ephemeral at best.
It doesn't matter if the current versions action economy is slightly too limited (even though its by far the most open that currently exists) if we have reason to believe the final version will be even better.
Yes, but no ones talking about typos here. Were talking about changes that have been acknowledged are in examination for alteration because people want them.
It seems pretty safe to assume at this point some change is happening to Act Together, unless that change violates balance limits imposed by the designers.
Its not exactly a dangerous bet to make.
mentioning ideas they have had and are thinking of is in no way admittance of said changes or anything like them happening. and mark mentioned as much.
so while you can be hopeful, dont push that narrative around because it is pure assumption.
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If you really want a particular low level buff handy at a higher level, wands are still on the table, and likely staves too
Which you can't use because of the lack of lower level slots: you can't cast the low level spells anymore and that's required to use those items.
Yes, but no ones talking about typos here. Were talking about changes that have been acknowledged are in examination for alteration because people want them.It seems pretty safe to assume at this point some change is happening to Act Together, unless that change violates balance limits imposed by the designers.
Its not exactly a dangerous bet to make.
#1 there where more than typo's fixed: look at what was added to mutagenist.
#2 Even if we assume Act Together is changed, we don't know how it's changed or if it's in the way you expect it to be. Hence why I evaluate what's in front of me and not what I hope it'll be.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But is still can't access 3 action activities so it really isn't 4 actions per round free and clear. A caster with an animal companion at mature CAN do a 3 action activity while the companion does an action.I would recommend using the 1-to-3 action variant Mark Seifter talked about. That frees up a decent portion of the action economy issues.
I'll be happy to use it when it becomes an official change. Until then, it's not part of the playtest.
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But is still can't access 3 action activities so it really isn't 4 actions per round free and clear. A caster with an animal companion at mature CAN do a 3 action activity while the companion does an action.I would recommend using the 1-to-3 action variant Mark Seifter talked about. That frees up a decent portion of the action economy issues.
Be careful, some folks are extremely hostile to proposed, nonfinal fixes shared by developers.
I personally think its an excellent opportunity to play it as written, but make notes any time the proposed change would have made a difference and to share that in my feedback.
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But is still can't access 3 action activities so it really isn't 4 actions per round free and clear. A caster with an animal companion at mature CAN do a 3 action activity while the companion does an action.I would recommend using the 1-to-3 action variant Mark Seifter talked about. That frees up a decent portion of the action economy issues.Be careful, some folks are extremely hostile to proposed, nonfinal fixes shared by developers.
I personally think its an excellent opportunity to play it as written, but make notes any time the proposed change would have made a difference and to share that in my feedback.
i absolutely agree and test it and give feedback on it, ive done the same for a multitude of player suggested fix ideas as well and gave feedback on my feelings of how they went for me.
just important not to paint it as an *answer* to current issues because that assumes its gauranteed to show up.
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Be careful, some folks are extremely hostile to proposed, nonfinal fixes shared by developers.
He shared a thought. A musing. He didn't share a fix or suggest we use it in the playtest.
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If you really want a particular low level buff handy at a higher level, wands are still on the table, and likely staves tooWhich you can't use because of the lack of lower level slots: you can't cast the low level spells anymore and that's required to use those items.
Last I checked, Wands lack the problem text that some believe is causing Staves to not work, with their only restriction being "its on the Tradition spell list."
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Be careful, some folks are extremely hostile to proposed, nonfinal fixes shared by developers.He shared a thought. A musing. He didn't share a fix or suggest we use it in the playtest.
True, but I do think it is at least worth considering "If X is changed, how will that affect Y?" hypotheticals, especially as the playtest discussion continues to evolve, even if we don't actively use them our actual play runs.
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Be careful, some folks are extremely hostile to proposed, nonfinal fixes shared by developers.He shared a thought. A musing. He didn't share a fix or suggest we use it in the playtest.
Absolutely. But do you know what's likely to see it implemented?
Positive feedback.
I dont see Apathy and ignoring such things as a viable way to show support - if people talk about his pondering, especially positively or negatibely - ESPECIALLY if they test it because they like it so much - that's likely to indicate that its an idea worth exploring.
Remaining silent on it communicates nothing at best, or false disinterest at worst.
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Last I checked, Wands lack the problem text that some believe is causing Staves to not work, with their only restriction being "its on the Tradition spell list."
I was replying about staves and not really thinking about wands: you're going to need a bucket of wands to emulate lower level slots where a staff could manage with it's number of charges.
True, but I do think it is at least worth considering "If X is changed, how will that affect Y?" hypotheticals, especially as the playtest discussion continues to evolve, even if we don't actively use them our actual play runs.
Considering? As a thought experiment? Sure. Instead of the playtest rules? not IMO.
I think the benefits of such actions far outweigh the downsides, and I would recommend similar approaches to other GMs.
Now, think about someone like me that plays in more than one table. Should I play different rules at different tables? Advocate for this change wherever I go? Or try to play what's ACTUALLY in the PDF?
Absolutely. But do you know what's likely to see it implemented?
Positive feedback.
Or negative feedback on the current form. If everyone dislikes the current form, they CLEARLY would look for other options and since Mark already has some ideas...
Remaining silent on it communicates nothing at best, or false disinterest at worst.
Who advocated for that? Tell the what's isn't working, it's as simple as that.
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Remaining silent on it communicates nothing at best, or false disinterest at worst.Who advocated for that?
mentioning ideas they have had and are thinking of is in no way admittance of said changes or anything like them happening. and mark mentioned as much.
so while you can be hopeful, dont push that narrative around because it is pure assumption.
If you don’t believe, how can it become?