Why the separate hit point pool is important


Summoner Class

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KrispyXIV wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
graystone wrote:


Now if we look at things critically, how many rounds do both have to move? In practice, most rounds you don't use 5 actions [one of you isn't moving]. So that's down to 4. Then after your Boost it's 3 actions and if you Reinforce, you're down to 2... TO me, 2 actions SEEMS like less actions free to use than a normal persons actions and equal to an animal companion user.

Is it reasonably safe to summarize this as you feel that the perceived need to cast Boost/Reinforce Eidolon every time is counteracting any potential action economy benefits gained by the class?

That's what I'm getting here, but I want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding.

that is exactly how i feel

i know you can argue its a choice to make, but it doesnt feel like a choice.

The conclusion it leads me to draw is that different priorities are leading to massively different experiences.

I dont prioritize damage comparisons or damage dealing, and am not particularly focused on damage dealing. That means that on my priority list Boost Eidolon is pretty low... like, I'm going to be making two Strikes and don't have anything else in particular that I'd like to do with that action.

That means that for me, Summoner really is a 4 action superior action economy class, and I'm having a great time with it.

But for you, and presumably Graystone, your priorities mean that you feel forced into boosting to be viable. Its not just that its not a 4 action class to you, its like you're being forced to steal that 4th action from yourself - you kindof had it, but not really.

Its not really a 4 action class to you.

That definitely makes me inclined to put something about at least improving the action economy impact of boost/ reinforce on my survey.

indeed, im ok with the stance system you proposed, less inclined about the focus system chnage you mentioned, and most happy with the idea of just getting roughly half the damage of what it would be...all the time, and just freeing up that action for me in general.


KrispyXIV wrote:
I dont prioritize damage comparisons or damage dealing, and am not particularly focused on damage dealing. That means that on my priority list Boost Eidolon is pretty low... like, I'm going to be making two Strikes and don't have anything else in particular that I'd like to do with that action.

Thank you. This explains the disconnect I've been having with you're posts about improved action economy. I haven't met anyone I was playing with that ran a summoner that didn't see it as a no-brainer so it didn't enter my mind that you weren't doing so too.


Yeah the stance idea was a very interesting and cool one, i think; it's still a decision you have to make but now it's something that let's you breathe a little easier and might feel more fun to play.


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I created a seperate thread for discussion of the Boost/Reinforce eidolon pain point impacting the perception of action economy on the class.

I doubt its going to make everyone agree on shared hit points, but I do think we specifically identified a factor thats influencing relative enjoyment and valuation of the summoner as it stands.


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I'm actually ok with the separate hit point pool at the moment. So I changed my mind. It makes it easier to run and heal the summoner. If you take into account using summoned monsters to support your eidolon and summoner, it's easier to track two hit point pools than 3 or 4.

Now I'm more concerned about too few high level summon spell slots as they are the only one that support the summon monster play-style.

And I think they should boost the hit point pool a bit by letting the eidolon apply their con to the hit point pool or provide temporary hit points of level x Con per 1 to 10 minutes similar to a Juggernaut Mutagen.

Maybe incorporate reaction type ability like someone else suggested named something like Break Connection when your eidolon hits 0, you are still standing with 1 hit point.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

I'm actually ok with the separate hit point pool at the moment. So I changed my mind. It makes it easier to run and heal the summoner. If you take into account using summoned monsters to support your eidolon and summoner, it's easier to track two hit point pools than 3 or 4.

Now I'm more concerned about too few high level summon spell slots as they are the only one that support the summon monster play-style.

And I think they should boost the hit point pool a bit by letting the eidolon apply their con to the hit point pool or provide temporary hit points of level x Con per 1 to 10 minutes similar to a Juggernaut Mutagen.

Maybe incorporate reaction type ability like someone else suggested named something like Break Connection when your eidolon hits 0, you are still standing with 1 hit point.

I'm pretty sure a Summoner's Font is an option on the table. Getting CHA or CON number of fully-levelled summons would provide plenty of fuel.

I think the trick to buffing the shared HP is to have temporary hit points only on the Eidolon. It takes it roughly to one-and-a-half HP bars to track, means the Summoner still has a healthy HP supply, but still keeps the Eidolon as the really durable half.


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I mean the shared hit point pool on the previous post. I'm ok with the shared hit point pool. It makes life easier to track. Might be some little nuances to test, but overall it makes tracking easier.


Give the Summoner a d12, choice of CON as a key ability, and use of Eidolon CON; it'll be in a much better spot in terms of it's current survivability problems in regards to a shared HP Pool.

Silver Crusade

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That's a tad overkill, one of those would be fine (I'm partial to adding the Eidolon CON as well) but not all three.


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-Poison- wrote:
Give the Summoner a d12, choice of CON as a key ability, and use of Eidolon CON; it'll be in a much better spot in terms of it's current survivability problems in regards to a shared HP Pool.

so 12+4+3= 19 hp a level starting at level one. 4 more than a barb, and with two sources of con boosts it will only go up from there. All on a class that outside of AOEs isn't taking any more damage then said barbarian. one boost would be apricated, 2 or more would be overkill.

Silver Crusade

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Pronate11 wrote:
-Poison- wrote:
Give the Summoner a d12, choice of CON as a key ability, and use of Eidolon CON; it'll be in a much better spot in terms of it's current survivability problems in regards to a shared HP Pool.
so 12+4+3= 19 hp a level starting at level one. 4 more than a barb, and with two sources of con boosts it will only go up from there. All on a class that outside of AOEs isn't taking any more damage then said barbarian. one boost would be apricated, 2 or more would be overkill.

Don’t forget HP from Ancestry as well.


Rysky wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
-Poison- wrote:
Give the Summoner a d12, choice of CON as a key ability, and use of Eidolon CON; it'll be in a much better spot in terms of it's current survivability problems in regards to a shared HP Pool.
so 12+4+3= 19 hp a level starting at level one. 4 more than a barb, and with two sources of con boosts it will only go up from there. All on a class that outside of AOEs isn't taking any more damage then said barbarian. one boost would be apricated, 2 or more would be overkill.
Don’t forget HP from Ancestry as well.

that would be universal between classes, so it doesn't matter for comparisons, But that would mean up to 29 hp at level one, or the same hp as 2-3 whole wizards.

Silver Crusade

Sorry, that visual amuses me XD

“Are you two or three wizards strong? One-and-a-half barbarians?”


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Pronate11 wrote:
All on a class that outside of AOEs isn't taking any more damage then said barbarian.

The Summoner actually does take more damage on average than a Barbarian, not just AoEs but also in multi-enemy encounters and coupled with the higher chance of debuff.

The Eidolon, for instance, shares the same armor class as the Summoner for 8 levels with no chance of being able to wear any armor.


Rysky wrote:
Don’t forget HP from Ancestry as well.

Everybody gets ancestry HP, that's not something special the Summoner has; the game is balanced around it.


Maybe you feel a Summoner with a d12 is too much, but it needs help and i feel it would play better if your Eidolon's CON did more. So add Eidolon CON.

I also don't think it'd be too much to have the Summoner choose between CON or CHA as a key ability.
CHA for casting or CON for Summoning the Eidolon.
Right now CHA doesn't do much and while i'd like for CHA to be more important (either through a scaling Summoning font or whatever) i know there will be people who really just care for the Eidolon and this would help make it so the Summoner does not feel counter-intuitive to play.

Silver Crusade

-Poison- wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Don’t forget HP from Ancestry as well.
Everybody gets ancestry HP, that's not something special the Summoner has; the game is balanced around it.

I brought it up to point out how high their HP would be starting out.


Rysky wrote:
-Poison- wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Don’t forget HP from Ancestry as well.
Everybody gets ancestry HP, that's not something special the Summoner has; the game is balanced around it.
I brought it up to point out how high their HP would be starting out.

It would be 26 HP to the Barbarian's 22 HP.

A Wizard would start with like 16 HP.

So it would be like the same HP as 1.5 Wizards (Not even 2 full wizards), for a frontliner that shares 1 resource with 2 targets.

Silver Crusade

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And in most cases the enemies are going after the target that's actually causing them distress.


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Rysky wrote:
And in most cases the enemies are going after the target that's actually causing them distress.

Yes, the Summoner and the Eidolon are both targets causing distress.

Again, as i said earlier in the thread, idk how people think Summoners are immune to damage sources or encounters other casters are also vulnerable to.

Silver Crusade

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We don't think they're immune, we're just not letting assumptions born of metagaming slide.

"Oh this is obviously an Eidolon so we need to attacks that specific person in the back"

How do they know this?

"Oh that's an Eidolon and that's a Summoner, they share HP so if we focus on them both they'll go down even faster"

How do they know this?

Of course during combat with the Summoner contributing people will know they're a caster of some sort, but automatically jumping to those two conclusions is outright metagaming. The sigil doesn't automatically inform everyone who sees it of what a Summoner and Eidolon is and how they function. Making checks, sure, but automatically knowing is just metagaming.


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Rysky wrote:
How do they know this?

Big matching glowing symbols on their foreheads maybe? If one class ALWAYS has manifested creatures and they share such a mark, it's not rocket surgery to connect it to a profession/class. They might not know 'matching hp' but they know it's connected/controlled by the summoner. Summoner is one of the easiest classes to identify as no other class has an enforced and highly visible distinctive visual feature. It's literally a big sign saying 'Hi, I'm a summoner". :P


Rysky wrote:

We don't think they're immune, we're just not letting assumptions born of metagaming slide.

"Oh this is obviously an Eidolon so we need to attacks that specific person in the back"

How do they know this?

"Oh that's an Eidolon and that's a Summoner, they share HP so if we focus on them both they'll go down even faster"

How do they know this?

Of course during combat with the Summoner contributing people will know they're a caster of some sort, but automatically jumping to those two conclusions is outright metagaming. The sigil doesn't automatically inform everyone who sees it of what a Summoner and Eidolon is and how they function. Making checks, sure, but automatically knowing is just metagaming.

It's not simply targeting the Summoner, for about 8 levels the Eidolon has the exact same defense as the Summoner and has to be frontline.

The fact both can be targeted at once is an issue where 2 targets are draining 1 source. (No i'm not simply talking about AoE which you roll disadvantage on) on average, the Summoner is taking roughly 20% more damage in encounters over other classes before roll disadvantage is factored.

You do not have to solely target the Summoner for the same effect to occur.

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
How do they know this?
Big matching glowing symbols on their foreheads maybe? If one class ALWAYS has manifested creatures and they share such a mark, it's not rocket surgery to connect it to a profession/class. They might not know 'matching hp' but they know it's connected/controlled by the summoner. Summoner is one of the easiest classes to identify as no other class has an enforced and highly visible distinctive visual feature. It's literally a big sign saying 'Hi, I'm a summoner". :P

Easy to identify does not mean auto-identify.

Silver Crusade

-Poison- wrote:
Rysky wrote:

We don't think they're immune, we're just not letting assumptions born of metagaming slide.

"Oh this is obviously an Eidolon so we need to attacks that specific person in the back"

How do they know this?

"Oh that's an Eidolon and that's a Summoner, they share HP so if we focus on them both they'll go down even faster"

How do they know this?

Of course during combat with the Summoner contributing people will know they're a caster of some sort, but automatically jumping to those two conclusions is outright metagaming. The sigil doesn't automatically inform everyone who sees it of what a Summoner and Eidolon is and how they function. Making checks, sure, but automatically knowing is just metagaming.

It's not simply targeting the Summoner, for about 8 levels the Eidolon has the exact same defense as the Summoner and has to be frontline.

The fact both can be targeted at once is an issue where 2 targets are draining 1 source. (No i'm not simply talking about AoE which you roll disadvantage on) on average, the Summoner is taking roughly 20% more damage in encounters over other classes before roll disadvantage is factored.

You do not have to solely target the Summoner for the same effect to occur.

And the concern that the Eidolon's AC is too low has been brought up.

As for taking more than other classes, that's only an issue if you constantly put the Summoner in harm's way, instead of trying to keep them safe. That setup really hasn't changed from P1. Enemies shouldn't be ignoring the Eidolon nor other frontliners.


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Rysky wrote:


As for taking more than other classes, that's only an issue if you constantly put the Summoner in harm's way, instead of trying to keep them safe. That setup really hasn't changed from P1. Enemies shouldn't be ignoring the Eidolon nor other frontliners.

Actually the dynamics have changed since 1e.

The Summoner no longer gets to Lifelink health to the Eidolon, they are now 2 targets sharing 1 HP pool that is less than a Barbarian's without Rage active.

"Just keep your Summoner behind the party" is not a helpful or a real solution.
The Eidolon is just as vulnerable for a large portion of it's life and draining from the very same HP Pool.
Again, summoner's are not immune to damage sources or encounters that regular casters are vulnerable to.

You don't get a heads-up most of the time with "An encounter is about to begin, better get 80 ft. back"; so many encounters are a surprise for the most part.
Ranged attackers exist and are common, Summoners are not immune to taking arrows or spells to the face.
There are often times where getting so far behind the party could actually lead you to being ambushed by several enemies.

Summoners are not immune to regular caster problems and with the alteration of Lifelink now being simplified to just a shared HP pool, void of consent on the Summoner's part or the former contribution of HP on the Eidolon's part, the Eidolon is not supported enough to compensate.


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For the sake of argument, lets assume for a moment that -

Gaps in attack bonus and ac are closed so that the eidolon doesnt lag on raw numbers.

The classes action economy is patched such that youre not committing a action a round to passive damage boosts, and the suggested fix to act together is implemented.

In that case, whats the argument for even more survivability than a barbarian again?


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In practice, a summoner takes something like 1.2x damage the Ranger, but is easier to heal in combat.


KrispyXIV wrote:


In that case, whats the argument for even more survivability than a barbarian again?

If you read back a few posts you'll see.


RexAliquid wrote:
In practice, a summoner takes something like 1.2x damage the Ranger, but is easier to heal in combat.

Somebody brought up the idea either some posts ago or in a different thread about the concept of the Eidolon having a separate HP pool but only being able to be healed by you.

Somewhat similar to the curse by the Life Oracle in that outside heals are penalized, how would you feel about that?
Not even just in regards to Summoner's survivability but just do you feel that would be flavorful, thematic, or fun?


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Rysky wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
How do they know this?
Big matching glowing symbols on their foreheads maybe? If one class ALWAYS has manifested creatures and they share such a mark, it's not rocket surgery to connect it to a profession/class. They might not know 'matching hp' but they know it's connected/controlled by the summoner. Summoner is one of the easiest classes to identify as no other class has an enforced and highly visible distinctive visual feature. It's literally a big sign saying 'Hi, I'm a summoner". :P
Easy to identify does not mean auto-identify.

Recall Knowledge, Source Core Rulebook pg. 238

"You might know basic information about something without needing to attempt a check, but Recall Knowledge requires you to stop and think for a moment so you can recollect more specific facts and apply them." IMO, this is such an obvious piece of info, it would fall under "basic information about something" like not having to roll to recall rabbits have fur. If you can figure out 'fire is hot', you shouldn't have a problem figuring out '2 creatures with identical glowing symbols' equals a summoner and it's pet. It'd be different is it was an uncommon or rare class but if it's common I don't see the need for a roll for obvious common aspects for common things.


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My thoughts on Summoner's HP is that they need to have higher HP to encourage them to use their eidolons.

From my limited experience with the PF2 Summoner, the Eidolons aren't excessively superior bodies to the actual Summoner, or at least, they aren't compared to a Wizard who could buff themselves up. A Wizard with some combat spells could be as useful as a Summoner sending their Eidolon to the frontline. Giving your Eidolon the ability to move fast or swim could be replicated by spells or by talented Martial PCs. The Summoner cannot outpace anyone else just by using their Eidolon, but like a bard, they can be excellent at filling in any missing roles or backing up an expert. So because other Magic-Users have more flexibility in their choices, the Summoner should be able to do its niche more often.

Wizards are limited by their spell-slots on how long they can have summoned creatures in-game each day; Summoners are limited by their HP on how long their Eidolons can be active each day. A Healer can heal the Summoner and essentially give them another encounter's worth of Eidolon use, but then they're down a spell slot that could have been used to heal a frontline PC (or just be used as a Summon Monster spell instead of giving the Summoner another chance to use their Eidolon). Remember that a Summoner is not going to be sitting on their HP like a dragon on gold, but will actively be using it in combat or in exploration, paying the HP as the price for doing its niche role. And because they don't have the AC to prevent damage loss, they need their base HP to be higher, so that they can use their Eidolon for longer, and not become a cantripper after the 3rd encounter of the day.


Well, some kind of temporary hit points per battle would probably be best. The summoner is unlikely to take more attacks than the barbarian. The barbarian is a high priority kill target, the summoner is not in its current iteration if in the same group. You just don't want a barbarian taking swings on you. That class is a wrecker. So far it is the strongest martial I've played to date as far as straight up crushing enemies.

Some kind of Juggernaut Elixir temp hit point every battle would work fine for an eidolon to give it a small buffer. If they get focused on, they get hammered pretty quick and have two points of attack.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
Well, some kind of temporary hit points per battle would probably be best. The summoner is unlikely to take more attacks than the barbarian.

The Summoner quite literally takes more hits than a Barbarian, like if there is anything indisputable about Summoner it is that thanks to the Eidolon's damage received contributing to draining the shared HP pool, the Summoner is taking more hits than any other classes, including the Barbarian.

I'm not saying there won't be encounters where say a Champion might get 100% of the aggro from like 5 Orc Bandits or whatever.
Simply that the way the math works, that's how it comes down to on average because you're not simply taking damage as a caster, you are taking damage as a frontliner.

What do you mean by the temp HP idea, can you elaborate?
How much would you give per level and also would it be in the form of an Elixer? Would you charge Summoners an action just to use it? How long would it last?

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
How do they know this?
Big matching glowing symbols on their foreheads maybe? If one class ALWAYS has manifested creatures and they share such a mark, it's not rocket surgery to connect it to a profession/class. They might not know 'matching hp' but they know it's connected/controlled by the summoner. Summoner is one of the easiest classes to identify as no other class has an enforced and highly visible distinctive visual feature. It's literally a big sign saying 'Hi, I'm a summoner". :P
Easy to identify does not mean auto-identify.

Recall Knowledge, Source Core Rulebook pg. 238

"You might know basic information about something without needing to attempt a check, but Recall Knowledge requires you to stop and think for a moment so you can recollect more specific facts and apply them." IMO, this is such an obvious piece of info, it would fall under "basic information about something" like not having to roll to recall rabbits have fur. If you can figure out 'fire is hot', you shouldn't have a problem figuring out '2 creatures with identical glowing symbols' equals a summoner and it's pet. It'd be different is it was an uncommon or rare class but if it's common I don't see the need for a roll for obvious common aspects for common things.

We’re gonna disagree that absolutely everyone in the world knows what Summoner/Eidolon are and the Sigils and the mechanics involved therein.

Also Classes don’t have Rarity Traits, that’s doesn’t mean everything about them is something everyone knows.


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I'm fine with temporary HP. I just think bumping up the base numbers by using CON as the primary stat and giving them a higher class number would do the same thing, but reduce the cognitive load of running it.


EberronHoward wrote:
I'm fine with temporary HP. I just think bumping up the base numbers by using CON as the primary stat and giving them a higher class number would do the same thing, but reduce the cognitive load of running it.

That's what i mean, at some point it really is just easier not to overcomplicate things and either give the Summoner the HP increase or have separate HP pools.


EberronHoward wrote:

My thoughts on Summoner's HP is that they need to have higher HP to encourage them to use their eidolons.

From my limited experience with the PF2 Summoner, the Eidolons aren't excessively superior bodies to the actual Summoner, or at least, they aren't compared to a Wizard who could buff themselves up. A Wizard with some combat spells could be as useful as a Summoner sending their Eidolon to the frontline. Giving your Eidolon the ability to move fast or swim could be replicated by spells or by talented Martial PCs. The Summoner cannot outpace anyone else just by using their Eidolon, but like a bard, they can be excellent at filling in any missing roles or backing up an expert. So because other Magic-Users have more flexibility in their choices, the Summoner should be able to do its niche more often.

Wizards are limited by their spell-slots on how long they can have summoned creatures in-game each day; Summoners are limited by their HP on how long their Eidolons can be active each day. A Healer can heal the Summoner and essentially give them another encounter's worth of Eidolon use, but then they're down a spell slot that could have been used to heal a frontline PC (or just be used as a Summon Monster spell instead of giving the Summoner another chance to use their Eidolon). Remember that a Summoner is not going to be sitting on their HP like a dragon on gold, but will actively be using it in combat or in exploration, paying the HP as the price for doing its niche role. And because they don't have the AC to prevent damage loss, they need their base HP to be higher, so that they can use their Eidolon for longer, and not become a cantripper after the 3rd encounter of the day.

I'm confused. You seem to be implying that HP is a depletable resource, when in PF2E for most parties its the most renewable resource - its easily replenished outside of encounters. By mid levels, quite quickly. There's no 'endurance' issue for HP for anyone in the majority of parties.


Rysky wrote:
We’re gonna disagree that absolutely everyone in the world knows what Summoner/Eidolon are and the Sigils and the mechanics involved therein.

Seems right up there with 'wizards cast spells'. Big glowing symbols seem like an obvious thing to hear about as EVERY summoner has one. Do you make people roll to figure out wizards have spellbooks?

As to mechanics involved, I'd agree they might not know the specifics of the class but I'm not talking about any of that: I'm just talking about the very clear and obvious glowing symbol that each and every one of them has. I wouldn't have people roll for elves having pointed ears either.

Rysky wrote:
Also Classes don’t have Rarity Traits, that’s doesn’t mean everything about them is something everyone knows.

They don't yet. Core didn't have it for race or background either but now they do so I'd posit classes don't have rarity until they do too: we will not know if summoner has a rarity until we see.


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graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
We’re gonna disagree that absolutely everyone in the world knows what Summoner/Eidolon are and the Sigils and the mechanics involved therein.

Seems right up there with 'wizards cast spells'. Big glowing symbols seem like an obvious thing to hear about as EVERY summoner has one. Do you make people roll to figure out wizards have spellbooks?

As to mechanics involved, I'd agree they might not know the specifics of the class but I'm not talking about any of that: I'm just talking about the very clear and obvious glowing symbol that each and every one of them has. I wouldn't have people roll for elves having pointed ears either.

I'd still note that the majority of foes aren't particularly intelligent, and those that are intelligent may not be particularly educated.

Other than Humanoids who live within civilization, I'd argue that a large number of 'intelligent' foes (including many beasts, etc.) won't know specifically about things like 'Wizards' - even so much as a city dwelling humanoid might.

A Dragon might have the Arcane knowledge to put this together, but a Manticore? What does a Manticore know about how humans decorate themselves?

Knowing two people are linked and related does not bestow a knowledge of relevant tactics.


KrispyXIV wrote:


I'm confused. You seem to be implying that HP is a depletable resource, when in PF2E for most parties its the most renewable resource - its easily replenished outside of encounters. By mid levels, quite quickly. There's no 'endurance' issue for HP for anyone in the majority of parties.

Something can be 'depletable' and 'renewable'. Because Eidolons will have weaker ACs than other front-line/scouting classes, the Summoner will be the 'HP leak' of the party's ship, requiring more healing and defense than other classes.


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EberronHoward wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:


I'm confused. You seem to be implying that HP is a depletable resource, when in PF2E for most parties its the most renewable resource - its easily replenished outside of encounters. By mid levels, quite quickly. There's no 'endurance' issue for HP for anyone in the majority of parties.

Something can be 'depletable' and 'renewable'. Because Eidolons will have weaker ACs than other front-line/scouting classes, the Summoner will be the 'HP leak' of the party's ship, requiring more healing and defense than other classes.

Eidolons do not have weak AC's by any reasonable standard at level 3 and after - they won't require any more effort to keep up than anything other than a Champion, and a monk at some levels.

Their AC is actually quite good for a significant number of levels where they have Expert proficiency and 18 dex while others have yet to get their Expert proficiency.


KrispyXIV wrote:
I'd still note that the majority of foes aren't particularly intelligent, and those that are intelligent may not be particularly educated.

Sure, I don't disagree it wouldn't apply to some but I'd quibble over a "majority" [I've seen games mainly vs humanoids]. Risky's question was 'how would they know' and "Oh this is obviously an Eidolon so we need to attacks that specific person in the back": I took it as how foes using tactics and can identify normally can figure it out. So my response was inferring it meant intelligent creatures. So a wild Pegasus might not know but I'd think any humanoid that can gain classes would know.

KrispyXIV wrote:
Other than Humanoids who live within civilization, I'd argue that a large number of 'intelligent' foes (including many beasts, etc.) won't know specifically about things like 'Wizards' - even so much as a city dwelling humanoid might.

I don't think not being civilized equated to not understanding classes. Any intelligent creature that interreact with people with classes will get to know them, especially ones with clearly identifiable features. As I said a wild Pegasus most likely wouldn't know it but a former mount might. Even someone with the Feral Child background can figure out a class without their background being civilized.

KrispyXIV wrote:
A Dragon might have the Arcane knowledge to put this together, but a Manticore? What does a Manticore know about how humans decorate themselves?

Both depends on their interactions with people with classes. For instance "Stronger humanoids who encounter a manticore can cow it through intimidation and violence, sometimes even forcing it into service as a mount" so it very well could understand the classes. Also it's not unknown for dragons to interact with humanoids [see Metallic Dragons on Golarion]. As such, I don't know that they'd have to roll.

KrispyXIV wrote:
Knowing two people are linked and related does not bestow a knowledge of relevant tactics.

Knowing they are summoners means you know they are summoners: you know they are linked. To me, that's plenty to build a tactic with. The particulars of the mechanics doesn't really matter when it's not hard to figure out master vs controlled.


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graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
How do they know this?
Big matching glowing symbols on their foreheads maybe? If one class ALWAYS has manifested creatures and they share such a mark, it's not rocket surgery to connect it to a profession/class. They might not know 'matching hp' but they know it's connected/controlled by the summoner. Summoner is one of the easiest classes to identify as no other class has an enforced and highly visible distinctive visual feature. It's literally a big sign saying 'Hi, I'm a summoner". :P

What about simply using a Sigil Cantrip on everyone in your party that matches your Summoner Sigil? At a certain point it might just seem to be more a match to the personal heraldry of the party versus automatically linking the actual summoner and the Eidolon. Their are probably other ways to pull off similar tricks and probably do it better as well of course.


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Nosforontu wrote:
What about simply using a Sigil Cantrip on everyone in your party that matches your Summoner Sigil?

Sure, but that doesn't do much as ONLY 2 glow. The rest look like tattoos.

"The link between you and your eidolon takes the form of a magic glowing sigil on each of your bodies. This symbol can’t be obscured either magically or via mundane means, as it either shines through the magic or appears over top of whatever you use to cover it. This sigil, combined with the way that the two of you clearly act in tandem, makes it readily apparent to an intelligent observer that the two of you have some connection with each other, even if that onlooker doesn’t know what a summoner or an eidolon is."

It's impossible to obscured and you'd need more than a cantrip to put similar marks on others [none that I know of with durations worth it]. The marks really a big 'hi, we're a summoner and eidolon' signs.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Does that magic glowing sigil active all the time? Or only when the eidolon is present in reality?


Ravingdork wrote:
Does that magic glowing sigil active all the time? Or only when the eidolon is present in reality?

It just says you both have it with no provisos so it looks like you get a free glowing magic tattoo for life. No more night light needed for you.


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All this stuff trying to make shared HP work, but separate HP like all other creatures is too difficult.


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Temperans wrote:
All this stuff trying to make shared HP work, but separate HP like all other creatures is too difficult.

Temperans, it works fine. Its absolutely not complicated, and presents no rules issues.

If people weren't attacking it, thered be no perception that it doesnt "work".

As a game mechanic its simple and easy to run.

Please don't pretend that some folks not liking it - which you are absolutely entitled to do - is equivalent to the mechnanic "not working".


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KrispyXIV wrote:
Temperans wrote:
All this stuff trying to make shared HP work, but separate HP like all other creatures is too difficult.

Temperans, it works fine. Its absolutely not complicated, and presents no rules issues.

If people weren't attacking it, thered be no perception that it doesnt "work".

As a game mechanic its simple and easy to run.

Please don't pretend that some folks not liking it - which you are absolutely entitled to do - is equivalent to the mechnanic "not working".

I wouldn't say not complicated but does lead to an weird thing where the summoner in my party tends to forget that the eidolon shares his hp and goes to hide behind the party only to go down by letting his eidolon exposed while using a breath weapon... And about rules stuff it does lead to a lot of them that need to be clarified but that's normal anything new specially complicated mecanica give the dm a lot of wiggle room.

But that's fine to me. I mean it's not a core class so it can be a bit more complicated than one.

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