| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's because the eidolon isn't just a summoned creature.
You can summon expandable minions if you want. They're weak.
But for the eidolon to be truly, legitimately powerful, a little something extra needs to be given back.
Yes and that is the action economy isn't it?
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
So you all really don't see the issue with a summoner having (6/level) 56 hp and the eidolon having its own (6-8/level) 56-74 hp at level 6 with full Martial Stats, when most Fighters may themselves only have 80-86 or so?
Thats so mind blowingly overpowered in my mind I'm not clear how its acceptable to anyone.
Theres more or less no way that happens and we retain an Eidolon with anywhere near the current capabilities.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Other than balance. The reason is balance.There is no reason why the Eidolon and Summoner does not have separate HP pools!
That is pretty easy to fix up. Give the Summoner d6 hitpoints, the Eidolon d8. Maybe even through in a reaction for the summoner to sacrifice half his hitpoints to give them to the Eidolon. If the Eidolon Dies, it comes back on quarter hitpoints if you resummon it before the next day. Done
It doesn't have to be any more complex than that. Test it. tweak it a bit - maybe look at the CON of the eidolon.
Yes as a unit they have better hitpoints. But they are two bodies to be attacked without any of those special advantages they have in this playtest.
No one has to look up special rules for how they get damaged. Everyone heals normally.
I suspect something like this was considered, but Paizo want us to test this new complex variant.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So you all really don't see the issue with a summoner having (6/level) 56 hp and the eidolon having its own (6-8/level) 56-74 hp at level 6 with full Martial Stats, when most Fighters may themselves only have 80-86 or so?
Thats so mind blowingly overpowered in my mind I'm not clear how its acceptable to anyone.
Theres more or less no way that happens and we retain an Eidolon with anywhere near the current capabilities.
The current Eidolon does not have full martial stats. It falls far short of any of the martials. But this is not a discussion about their offensive ability.
1) The Summoners defenses are crap
2) Two separate buckets of hitpoints are just not the same as one pool. There are a lot of things they will both take damage from. They will often need to be healed separately.
3) They have one action pool, shared MAP. They really are still effectively one character.
4) The fighter has a hit and probaly AC bonus which really counts
No I don't see it as being overpowered.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So you all really don't see the issue with a summoner having (6/level) 56 hp and the eidolon having its own (6-8/level) 56-74 hp at level 6 with full Martial Stats, when most Fighters may themselves only have 80-86 or so?
Thats so mind blowingly overpowered in my mind I'm not clear how its acceptable to anyone.
Theres more or less no way that happens and we retain an Eidolon with anywhere near the current capabilities.
The current Eidolon does not have full martial stats. It falls far short of any of the martials. But this is not a discussion about their offensive ability.
1) The Summoners defenses are crap
2) Two separate buckets of hitpoints are just not the same as one pool. There are a lot of things they will both take damage from. They will often need to be healed separately.
3) They have one action pool, shared MAP. They really are still effectively one character.
4) The fighter has a hit and probaly AC bonus which really countsNo I don't see it as being overpowered.
Sorry, you're correct. A non-shared hp pool will undoubtedly result in being even further behind martial offense for the portion of the summoners career where they are behind currently.
2 - You're correct. In many cases where the summoner is vulnerable, their exposure to damage actually potentially doubles because they can now be damaged twice, which actually increases time and resource drain for healing, which is a significant quality of life impact for the whole party. The duo is still massively more durable for the majority of cases though.
4 - where is this Fighter AC bonus relative to the Eidolons after level 3? Eidolons spend significant time on the Monk AC curve, and then a good portion of their later levels on par with the Fighter. I doubt we retain this if the Summoner + Eidolon picks up another 60-80% HP due to separate hp pools and adding the Eidolons con to the new one.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you don't want an emotional connection to your eidolon, you shouldn't be playing a summoner.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
4 - where is this Fighter AC bonus relative to the Eidolons after level 3? Eidolons spend significant time on the Monk AC curve, and then a good portion of their later levels on par with the Fighter. I doubt we retain this if the Summoner + Eidolon picks up another 60-80% HP due to separate hp pools and adding the Eidolons con to the new one.
It is in the shield, the heavy armour, or in some of the feats. Edilodons are doing d8 offensively, not d10 or d12 or a flurry.
The actual hitpoint numbers are not the point. What I put out was just a suggestion. The CON of the Eidlon would have to drop, maybe even the hit dice. Maybe start at 10. A balance would have to be found, not a total equavalence but some sort of reasonable balance.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you don't want an emotional connection to your eidolon, you shouldn't be playing a summoner.
The eidolon is my dog in the fight. Of course there is an emotional connection
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the point is for the eidolon to be seen as, and to be treated as, something more than an expendable "dog in the fight." Again, I see why linking HP totals gets this point across.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I want is to play a Summoner.
If you asked a group of people who were interested in Fantasy but knew nothing about Paizo, to describe a Summoner and his Summons. Shared life force or any such concept would not show up.
Complex healing and damage rules are just bad for play and acceptance.
Paizo are going in a new and interesting direction here. Its just too far from the source for me to connect with.
PF1 Summoner overlapped enough with a classic summoner, this is something else.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Linking HP doesn't get that point across.
All its doing is making the Eidolon less of a creature.
The only thing making it less of a creature is you denying that it is one.
It has a unique name, backstory, description and personality.
Moreover since it seems as though the roleplaying aspect of things is dismissed out of hand by some, it has unique stats, attacks and capabilities.
It does not play like "less of a creature" because it shares a hp pool.
EDIT: Gortle, I asked my table how they felt about shared HP at the end of session last night. "Less of a character", "not like a summon" or "liability" didn't come up, but "important limitation on having two characters for balance" did.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the issue is that different people want different things from the class, and it's only a single class, it won't scratch every itch. So what variation would satisfy the majority, while doing what it can to minimize how it might rub others the wrong way.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
One advantage of the shared hit point pool is that the summoner or another party member can more easily heal the eidolon without going near the front line by healing the summoner.
Also, I always played my summoner as feeling his eidolon's pain when the eidolon took enough damage to be banished. I think I would actually have preferred the new mechanic over the old one for that purpose.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It does like less of a creature. That is what shared HP and shared action does.
I got hurt I used those actions. If the Eidolon was an independent creature it would not be getting hurt. It would still have its actions.
The fact that you like think this system is interesting does not make it a good fit for the Summoner.
How many people that think the system is interesting would it take to make you think it's a good fit for the summoner? More to the point, how many people would sway the devs?
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
How many people that think the system is interesting would it take to make you think it's a good fit for the summoner? More to the point, how many people would sway the devs?It does like less of a creature. That is what shared HP and shared action does.
I got hurt I used those actions. If the Eidolon was an independent creature it would not be getting hurt. It would still have its actions.
The fact that you like think this system is interesting does not make it a good fit for the Summoner.
The way I read Temperans position, there is no interest in how the ability is in play - only the position that it is wrong, does not fit, and must be changed.
That's the really frustrating part. If I playtest it and over time it proves to be an issue, I'll change my position.
Temperans seems to have already decided, and does not appear to allow any room for, "Oops, experience shows its actually good."
There has been enough discussion on this issue that I would expect something to change between playtest and release, though I really couldn't say what that would be.
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm coming in late to this thread so this may have already been said, but I want to voice my opinion and experience here. I LOVE the shared HP pool.
1. I don't feel like it takes away from the idea that I am summoning a unique outsider at all.
2. Honestly, it makes me feel more like I'm summoning, not less. It makes it very clear that I, as a Summoner, have a unique and rare ability that other casters do not. Sure, a Wizard, Witch, Sorceror, etc. can summon a creature, but I'm the only one who can reach out and attach my lifeforce to such a unique and powerful being.
3. I think it is a good thing that the Eidolon can't be used as a meat shield and sacrificial pawn. This only goes to show even more it is unique from the other minions I summon and is a partner rather than a dutiful servant
4. I think there needs to be a bit more support for summoning regular creatures (I'm still an advocate for a Summoning Font or Conduit Spell to summon), but the link with the Eidolon is my favorite part of this class.
An idea to support both sides.
When you summon your eidilon, you lose half your current hit points, and it gains that many as it's maximum hit points.
When you end the summon, you gain any remaining hit point it has.
That way, it can be used as a sacrifice, but also "hurt" you when it happens. Healing between battles is still simple as well.
For those who have not read the original summoner class from PF1, please go give it a read first. Some people seem to think Paizo hasn't already established this class's lore and abilities. It is a well-established and popular class.
This what we summoner fans played in PF1. I played both a 1st release summoner and an unchained Summoner Inevitable and Elemental eidolons.
Super fun classes, both of them.
Neither of those is a link to a lore book. Those are setting agnostic rules. Maybe you should read the setting books for an idea of the actual lore of the class. That can help you understand the direction the summoner rules are taking.
For each god caller, and for those who looked to these magic-users as leaders, an eidolon was not just a mysterious being brought forth by magic—it was an embodiment of the divine, the manifestation of a being they believed to be a true god.
An idea to support both sides.
When you summon your eidilon, you lose half your current hit points, and it gains that many as it's maximum hit points.
When you end the summon, you gain any remaining hit point it has.That way, it can be used as a sacrifice, but also "hurt" you when it happens. Healing between battles is still simple as well.
So in this instance you're no longer sharing HP? It seems like you're opening yourself up to a world of pain with this. Now you're definitely taking double damage from AoE and your frontliner has less health while you are two separate people for healing purposes.
I'm not sure that this "split the middle" is going to be agreeable to either side here.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, actually. A much simpler way.
Quick Dismiss, Free Action, Focus Spell 1.
Trigger: your elidion is about to take damage
You dismiss your elidion, avoiding the damage.
You can also cast this spell on your turn.
There you go. Keep the shared HP and you can throw it into a death trap.
Oh, actually. A much simpler way.
Quick Dismiss, Free Action, Focus Spell 1.
Trigger: your elidion is about to take damage
You dismiss your elidion, avoiding the damage.
You can also cast this spell on your turn.There you go. You can throw it into a death trap.
Slap that on a feat, I'm sure it'll go far. I know people that would love it and others that would avoid it, but it seems fine to me.
One advantage of the shared hit point pool is that the summoner or another party member can more easily heal the eidolon without going near the front line by healing the summoner.Also, I always played my summoner as feeling his eidolon's pain when the eidolon took enough damage to be banished. I think I would actually have preferred the new mechanic over the old one for that purpose.
Yes. May well be that the new common hitpoint mechanic is workable. Its clearly not too far from it. From a purely intellectual point of view it is odd and interesting.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rp wise yes it's a seperate entity.
Mechanically it often is not.
If you only need fluff descriptors to feel it's a seperate being. That's fine.
Many of us are not sold on this at all because the mechanics of the game is also considered in our concept of said game.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Eidolons are close enough to what most people would think of when they hear "summoner", since I can guarantee 95% of people are thinking of Yuna and actual FF10 summons aren't gonna happen. They're also relatively close to FF14 summons, which is most of the current zeitgeist wrt the subject.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Eidolons are close enough to what most people would think of when they hear "summoner", since I can guarantee 95% of people are thinking of Yuna and actual FF10 summons aren't gonna happen. They're also relatively close to FF14 summons, which is most of the current zeitgeist wrt the subject.
This really assumes everyone's player a final fantasy game
I have not
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think WoW Warlocks first, Yuna second
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
FF14 summoners are basically WoW locks, so there's that. ;P
Also, while I favor a "summoning font" for Summoner because it's cool and in the name, I really don't want to see a return of their crazy megasummons from 1e, which honestly barely related to the eidolons in the first place.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think WoW Warlocks first, Yuna second
Anyone else remember Mages in Everquest?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the end everything will go to the survey anyway. If more people like the shared HP than not then it will be the most likely the way that the class will go, with the opposite also being true.
I personally like the shared hit points bond that it have, feels very flavorful and will be what I will say in my survey, unless further testing prove otherwise. But the session that I had until now I liked it a lot.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like the shared hp pool. It's far simpler and less of a hassle than the previous edition. What's more, it allows me to have a powerful eidolon without having to worry so much about stepping on anyone's toes.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like the shared hp pool. It's far simpler and less of a hassle than the previous edition. What's more, it allows me to have a powerful eidolon without having to worry so much about stepping on anyone's toes.
Absolutely easier to track one HP pool.
A powerful eidolon that the summoner can also treat as expendable just doesn't sit right. (And the 24 hour lockout from PF1 was a frustrating mechanic). A single hp pool is the best decision for this class.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
The shared hp and action is an example of the Synchronization trope. So no I don't think it makes it looks like the same creature. It only feels that way if you only define eidolons by its hp and ability to take action. The concept of a summoner that feels the pain of what they summon is found in pop culture, so saying it not a summoner is ridiculous to me. The shared action and hp help make it interesting and set it apart not only in power but flavor than another summons. If we gave them different actions and hp they would likely be regulated to how minion act in the game and that will severely weaken it. There are benefits and drawbacks to sharing these. I like the tandem feats and expect to see more when the class is released and with shared hp it easier to tack and heal. It also requires you to think and be creative about how you act which I really like.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Slap that on a feat, I'm sure it'll go far. I know people that would love it and others that would avoid it, but it seems fine to me.Oh, actually. A much simpler way.
Quick Dismiss, Free Action, Focus Spell 1.
Trigger: your elidion is about to take damage
You dismiss your elidion, avoiding the damage.
You can also cast this spell on your turn.There you go. You can throw it into a death trap.
Right, as a level 2 feat.
So people who want a disposable/tank Eidolon can have it, while still keeping the simpler shared hit points a base mechanic. Build around manifesting it more often.
To toss out another idea...
Independent Manifest: Feat 1
When you manifest your Eidolon, you can choose to make it more independent by weakening your connection to it. It gains the Minion trait, getting 2 actions and needs to be commanded the same as any other minion, though you can do so mentally. It gains it's own hit points equal to its 3+it's Con per level and you take irreducible damage equal to half of that. It cannot benefit from any Tandem feats or shared damage or healing while manifest in this way. It still benefits from any Item bonus. If you unmanifest it while in this form, you regain hit points equal to half of its current hit points.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
I personally felt the shared hit point pool didn't really clash with the summon aspect of the class because I am imagining it as the Summoner using their very lifeforce to help power the spell that's brought a fragment of a much greater entity into this world.
That "fragment of a greater being" solves a lot of problems, like dragons not being able to fly (you haven't trained enough to be able to bring through its magical abilities that assist flight).
It also is *more* like a summon than normal summoning spells which just generate a generic copy of the entity you're summoning that has no memory or persistence outside of the summon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's a good point, WatersLethe.
An eidolon never forgets.
:P