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I'm seeing lots of complaints that the summoner and eidolon are currently weaker than more traditional options due to shared action economy and hit points.
Would increasing the hit points help?
Seems to me like 10 isn't enough to split between two creatures getting attacked twice as often.
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On the flipside, there is only one "path" of summoner that fails to get spontaneous access to at least one Spell that can be used to heal themselves and ALSO effect their E.
Not to mention the fact that just because they CAN be attacked with two hit-boxes doesn't mean that the enemies suddenly have twice as many Action with which to attack.
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Seems to me like 10 isn't enough to split between two creatures getting attacked twice as often.
First - Please stop quoting getting attacked twice as often. There's no world where attacks are distributed evenly between characters - nor do incoming attacks increase because an Summoner+Eidolon joins the party as opposed to another Fighter.
A summoner may get attacked more, but not nearly twice as often.
Second - Have you considered how this looks to other players?
"Wait, you have more HP than my Fighter? You're a caster with a pet."
"Well, its because I have to split them with my pet."
"Your pet with the same AC I have, that you can heal without provoking from the backline? The pet thats exactly as vulnerable as me?"
"Well, I get attacked too!"
"No more than anyone else. Listen, all incoming attacks are going where they make sense - anything targeting your Eidolon is targeting defenses exactly as strong as mine, and you benefit from the safety of everyone else protecting you. Why do you get more HP than me again? Fighting is literally all I do. I don't have any spells, a second body, interesting abilities to manipulate skills and assist myself, or any of that!"
It looks unfair is what it does when you have more effective hitpoints than other classes with less options, and the Eidolon doesn't have the disadvantage inherent to other companions like Animal Companions where it clearly numerically worse than a PC on attack and defense.
12 per level wouldn't go amiss.
How about more ways to reduce damage instead of more hp you have to work to get back? Maybe add charisma mod to resistance with reinforce Eidolon? A shield block sort of ability. Champion reaction that can only be used for the Eidolon or summoner.
I wouldn't mind d12
But genuinely if your problem is that enemies are routinely focusing your character and you find them dropping constantly as a result, I think the answer is to talk to the GM about why they're singling you out so much more than it is asking Paizo for buffs, because that's going to be potentially an issue for anyone (except maybe like, an evil champion they like getting hit).
I don't believe 12 HP would be enough to actually help Summoner.
I'm much more of a fan of the suggested idea that the Summoner gets 6HP and the Eidolon gets 10HP (still pooling their HP for the sake of Lifelink)
As it is, the survivability of Summoner is much lower than what should be acceptable.
I wouldn't mind d12
But genuinely if your problem is that enemies are routinely focusing your character and you find them dropping constantly as a result, I think the answer is to talk to the GM about why they're singling you out so much more than it is asking Paizo for buffs, because that's going to be potentially an issue for anyone (except maybe like, an evil champion they like getting hit).
I'd rather the class be appropriately balanced so it's satisfying to play than to always ask the GM to make concessions.
Again, once you begin playtesting, it's much more noticeable on the Summoner how often multi-enemy encounters, sudden combat encounters, and AoEs are present.
I wouldn't mind d12
But genuinely if your problem is that enemies are routinely focusing your character and you find them dropping constantly as a result, I think the answer is to talk to the GM about why they're singling you out so much more than it is asking Paizo for buffs, because that's going to be potentially an issue for anyone (except maybe like, an evil champion they like getting hit).
In my playtest session I played an occult summoner, so I wanted people to attack the summoner not the phantom. Everyone attacked the phantom, not the summoner because the summoner itself did not present as very threatening compared to the battle ghost.
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Y'all really aren't gonna be satisfied until the Magus and Summoner are straight out better than any of the martials huh
Y'all really aren't gonna be satisfied until the Magus and Summoner are straight out better than any of the martials huh
Martials aren't at what is essentially disadvantage in over 40% of encounters; asking for better support in survivability so the class feels good to play is not asking to overshadow martials.
12hp should be what they get.
It's equivalent of a wizard with a animal companion
Y'all really aren't gonna be satisfied until the Magus and Summoner are straight out better than any of the martials huh
Heaven forbid the pet class has equivalent hp to a d6 caster with an animal companion.
Hardly above par.
Y'all really aren't gonna be satisfied until the Magus and Summoner are straight out better than any of the martials huhHeaven forbid the pet class has equivalent hp to a d6 caster with an animal companion.
Hardly above par.
Neither the Wizard in this comparison nor the Animal Companion have Eidolon grade AC (post level 3) except in extreme scenarios, like the very endgame for the Animal Companion.
Neither the Wizard in this comparison nor the Animal Companion have Eidolon grade AC (post level 3) except in extreme scenarios, like the very endgame for the Animal Companion.Y'all really aren't gonna be satisfied until the Magus and Summoner are straight out better than any of the martials huhHeaven forbid the pet class has equivalent hp to a d6 caster with an animal companion.
Hardly above par.
Yeah they also don't share their HP.
Wizard also actually does have the same AC as the Eidolon for about 8 levels.
I'd rather the class be appropriately balanced so it's satisfying to play than to always ask the GM to make concessions.
No one said anything about the GM making concessions.
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Again, once you begin playtesting, it's much more noticeable on the Summoner how often multi-enemy encounters, sudden combat encounters, and AoEs are present.
If you're both caught in an area effect, you take the damage only once. From the playtest document:
I'd rather the class be appropriately balanced so it's satisfying to play than to always ask the GM to make concessions.No one said anything about the GM making concessions.
Actually if you read what i had responded to, you'd see that, yes, the context was about GM concessions
Again, once you begin playtesting, it's much more noticeable on the Summoner how often multi-enemy encounters, sudden combat encounters, and AoEs are present.If you're both caught in an area effect, you take the damage only once. From the playtest document:
Idk if you just misunderstand how that works or not, but let me break it down for the sake of Summoner's case.
If there are two rolls, and i take the worse roll; that is called disadvantage and that's essentially how the Eidolon functions in AoEs and how damage is applied to my HP pool.
I am not saying i take double-damage, i'm saying i'm at disadvantage and i take hits more often.
Likewise, if there are 4 enemies (2 on me, 2 on my Eidolon) and each enemy takes their turn (because this is turn-based like all combat in Pathfinder) and hits us, that means i am taking hits from 4 different enemies.
I am not taking the worst damage out of 4 enemies.
For instance, let's say they do 1, 2, 3, and 4 damage; i do not simply take 4 damage to my HP after each enemy takes their turn. I take a cumulative 10 damage to my HP.
Actually if you read what i had responded to, you'd see that, yes, the context was about GM concessions
No, the context was about a GM deciding to prioritize killing one character over every other character and somehow people trying to turn that into an issue of class balance rather than table etiquette.
Concession implies the GM performing some sort of specific favor for a player, which isn't how I'd categorizing choosing to stop focusing encounters specifically around trying to kill their character.
Actually if you read what i had responded to, you'd see that, yes, the context was about GM concessionsNo, the context was about a GM deciding to prioritize killing one character over every other character and somehow people trying to turn that into an issue of class balance rather than table etiquette.
Concession implies the GM performing some sort of specific favor for a player, which isn't how I'd categorizing choosing to stop focusing encounters specifically around trying to kill their character.
Unless you're talking about something completely unrelated to the playtest, like if a GM has some personal grudge against you, this is a byproduct of regular play, how the summoner functions in regular play, and your intentions to bring up your dissatisfaction with the GM about this regular play is for some type of concession to be made.
this is a byproduct of regular play
The GM going out of their way to attack one player's character twice as often as everyone else (which is what the OP specifically said) is not regular play.
this is a byproduct of regular playThe GM going out of their way to attack one player's character twice as often as everyone else (which is what the OP specifically said) is not regular play.
OP didn't say the GM was going out of their way to attack one player's character twice as often as everyone else, if you go back an re-read they say:
"Seems to me like 10 isn't enough to split between two creatures getting attacked twice as often."
That's not the GM, that's part of playing the playtest Summoner and that's why if you read above you'll find me breaking down why that seems to mechanically occur more often for a Summoner.
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Just because you have two bodies doesn't mean you're going to receive twice as many attacks, are you kidding me? I covered this with the first comment here - The presence of a Summoner does not suddenly increase the number of Actions the opponents have, nor will it magically shift every NPC/Monster toward using Focus-Fire tactics just so they can knock one Character and their goon out of the action.
Honestly the Summoner themself is probably the least threatening person in the party- most of what they do is stand around and cast quick spells that don't obviously do anything; they get about 1/3 as much done in a round as everybody else around.
So I don't see why someone would attack the summoner without some sort of strategy like "pick off the weak ones first."
Just because you have two bodies doesn't mean you're going to receive twice as many attacks, are you kidding me? I covered this with the first comment here - The presence of a Summoner does not suddenly increase the number of Actions the opponents have, nor will it magically shift every NPC/Monster toward using Focus-Fire tactics just so they can knock one Character and their goon out of the action.
I did not say you get twice as many attacks and i've already covered this with my reply to OP about how you do get hit more often.
It's not about the enemies magically gaining more actions to attack, it is about how mechanically the Summoner opens itself up to more attacks in such a way that's unique from other classes whereby it receives attacks more often; you do not need to focus-fire the Summoner in order to garner the same effect, and that was the point.
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More HP isn't going to solve the problem that Summoners are twice as vulnerable as any other class due to unified HP mechanics, not because their HP isn't enough.
Even if we want to argue "Summoner and Eidolon doesn't all of a sudden mean more attacks start coming at the party," the point is that there are two points of attack to affect the same entity, meaning you are, indeed, more vulnerable than any given character, as you now have two positions of vulnerability to watch out for instead of one. It's basic laws of mathematics and probability at work here.
Honestly, the fact the Summoner gets 10 HP as a caster class is ridiculous enough as it is. The only sensible way for 12 HP to work would be with a Kineticist, but that's not on the table right now (and according to rumor, never will be).
All Paizo needs to do is just make the Eidolon have its own attributes separate from the Summoner and it's fine. I imagine the playtest is meant to see if they can keep things simple by seeing if having one set of attributes for two characters is a viable way to play. And if anyone wants to argue that it makes the class more difficult to play, I will simply point you to the Druid class which can have a similar chassis, or even the Beastmaster archetype. If Animal Companions can be played separately from players, so can (and should) Eidolons.
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My only thing is that the class feature for the sigil calls out that it's obvious the two are linked.
Most enemies with a functioning brain may decide to stop tangling with the buffed monster with expert unarmored and go for the spellcaster if it'll have the same result as "the eidolon goes away."
Add in that for area debuffs like divine wrath or frightful presence that the summoner rolls twice and takes the worse-- so we could both just be frightened 4 because of an unlucky 1 on 2d20-- it's enough for me to want slightly more HP than a fighter, yeah.
If a fighter has to roll twice and take the worse on every dragon's breath weapon then maybe he should have some more HP too, but he doesn't. And his 10th level feat can be spent on something other than "now I don't have disadvantage," which feels real bad...
I'm cool with 10hp and the shared pool.
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I don't mind 10 for hit points but I really think they should just make constitution the primary stat for the summoner. I feel it would make more sense both thematically, (it's your life force powering the bond) and mechanically.
I don't mind 10 for hit points but I really think they should just make constitution the primary stat for the summoner. I feel it would make more sense both thematically, (it's your life force powering the bond) and mechanically.
I really hope not. Constitution is the most boring stat by far. Its nothing but a passive surviability buff and you can't do anything with it.
I don't mind 10 for hit points but I really think they should just make constitution the primary stat for the summoner. I feel it would make more sense both thematically, (it's your life force powering the bond) and mechanically.I really hope not. Constitution is the most boring stat by far. Its nothing but a passive surviability buff and you can't do anything with it.
Would making them use Con as their casting stat (like the Scarred-Witch Doctor) help with that or would not be enough? I definitely think it would make them feel more unique.
Would making them use Con as their casting stat (like the Scarred-Witch Doctor) help with that or would not be enough? I definitely think it would make them feel more unique.I don't mind 10 for hit points but I really think they should just make constitution the primary stat for the summoner. I feel it would make more sense both thematically, (it's your life force powering the bond) and mechanically.I really hope not. Constitution is the most boring stat by far. Its nothing but a passive surviability buff and you can't do anything with it.
Didn't that get errataed because it was terribly overpowered?
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Didn't that get errataed because it was terribly overpowered?Would making them use Con as their casting stat (like the Scarred-Witch Doctor) help with that or would not be enough? I definitely think it would make them feel more unique.I don't mind 10 for hit points but I really think they should just make constitution the primary stat for the summoner. I feel it would make more sense both thematically, (it's your life force powering the bond) and mechanically.I really hope not. Constitution is the most boring stat by far. Its nothing but a passive surviability buff and you can't do anything with it.
Yes, and I wouldn't recommend it on any other class. But with the current iteration of the summoner?
I just can't help but feel that when alot of the current builds are suggesting to drop your primary stat to 10 or 12 it may be better to look at a different stat. I think charisma as primary may be a hold over from first edition anyways.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Didn't that get errataed because it was terribly overpowered?Would making them use Con as their casting stat (like the Scarred-Witch Doctor) help with that or would not be enough? I definitely think it would make them feel more unique.I don't mind 10 for hit points but I really think they should just make constitution the primary stat for the summoner. I feel it would make more sense both thematically, (it's your life force powering the bond) and mechanically.I really hope not. Constitution is the most boring stat by far. Its nothing but a passive surviability buff and you can't do anything with it.
Yes but, more-so because it was Scarred Witch rather than CON casting; i extremely doubt it would be a problem in 2e.
It thematically makes sense that a Summoner uses their life force to bring forth a creature that is tied/bonded to them, so CON as a key ability and casting stat would be fine.
That said, i don't believe that'd be enough to fix the issue regarding survivability alone, it just slightly helps and makes the Summoner function a little bit more intuitively instead of counter-synergistic.
Would making them use Con as their casting stat (like the Scarred-Witch Doctor) help with that or would not be enough? I definitely think it would make them feel more unique.I don't mind 10 for hit points but I really think they should just make constitution the primary stat for the summoner. I feel it would make more sense both thematically, (it's your life force powering the bond) and mechanically.I really hope not. Constitution is the most boring stat by far. Its nothing but a passive surviability buff and you can't do anything with it.
No thanks. If they did that, they'd probably bump them down to 8 hp, and what would the point be? Even if they kept it, if I'm giving up my primary stat to ANY skill, I want it to be on a class that actually leans in to the unkillable vibe, not just slapped on as a casting stat.
The "Con is my main stat" class should be one where "stressing my body in order to do the thing" is a part of your main schtick. So the Kineticist, sure, but Summoning one's Eidolon has never been described as painful or especially taxing.
tbh, i am more than fine with charisma being the main casting stat.
but every single caster has a secondary use for its main stat that keys off its core features in some way, and/or has many spells to use over the course of a day.
summoner has neither.
doesnt even need to be a lot. even if its just, the eidolon abilities that require DC (like beast roar), utilizing your charisma somehow or your class DC.
As for the hp, it would not overpower the summoner at all, to have 12hp per level.
it would be the same as a wizard with a animal companion. the eidolon is still a basic martial with no feats. and the summoner is a caster with bad spell progression and no room for utility spell choices in its slots. that thing that is argued to be the biggest benefit of a caster at higher levels.
being bad at both things should come with some MECHANICAL benefits, not just subjective RP benefits.
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The "Con is my main stat" class should be one where "stressing my body in order to do the thing" is a part of your main schtick. So the Kineticist, sure, but Summoning one's Eidolon has never been described as painful or especially taxing.
Yeah, but 2e Eidolons specifically rely on your life force. That's the whole HP mechanic, so I think you could justify it that way.
Agree with martialmasters though. The bigger problem is that Cha just doesn't do much for the Summoner except improve their spell-related checks, but they only get four spells and have proficiency issues anyways kind of nudging them away from doing much counteracting or offensive magic.
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Honestly they should just have the Eidolon keep as a 10 HP creature and give the Summoner a 6 hp.
then add in the life link ability and let the summoner pay however much HP they want to keep the Eidolon from dropping.
I like this the most. It's how it was ran in PF1, and it's not any more difficult to keep track of the Eidolon any more than it is to keep track of an Animal Companion or Familiar, so I don't see how "It's too complex" could be used as a reason or excuse for something that I feel is bad mechanics.
It's bad enough you have to play like Bobby Fisher in Chess with your character's positioning, but now you have to do the same with an Eidolon in tow? Bobby Fisher could do it no problem. Us regular Joes and Janes? Ehhhhhh...some will certainly struggle.
The issue with splitting the Summoner's and the Eidolon's HP is the question of what happens when the Eidolon gets wiped.
How do they return to the field? RAW, creatures regain a small amount of HP after resting, which means that the Eidolon is out for the rest of the day.
Because unlike anyone else, the Eidolon stops existing at 0 HP and thus can't be healed.
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The issue with splitting the Summoner's and the Eidolon's HP is the question of what happens when the Eidolon gets wiped.
How do they return to the field? RAW, creatures regain a small amount of HP after resting, which means that the Eidolon is out for the rest of the day.
Because unlike anyone else, the Eidolon stops existing at 0 HP and thus can't be healed.
You resummon it. Perfect scenario for resummon equal to your Cha mod
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The issue with splitting the Summoner's and the Eidolon's HP is the question of what happens when the Eidolon gets wiped.
How do they return to the field? RAW, creatures regain a small amount of HP after resting, which means that the Eidolon is out for the rest of the day.
Because unlike anyone else, the Eidolon stops existing at 0 HP and thus can't be healed.
It costs you a full 3 action to respawn the Eidolon and it does nothing that round.
If the summoners and eidolons hit points are split it would be fairly easy to have a rule like: If the Eidolon returns within an hour of being manifested before it keeps its old hitpoint total, with a minimum of half hit points. After that is come back with full hit points. Not at all unbalanced considering how cheap healing is in this game over a ten minute time frame.
The summoner has too many hitpoints. The eidolon could do with some more.
Frankly I'd rather see the summoner on 1d6 hitpoints and the edidolon on 1d12.
Getting even a nerfed caster alongside a Barbarian is not an option.