Definitely skills. A Summoner built for skills is unmatched.
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Definitely skills. A Summoner built for skills is unmatched.Rogue blows the summoner out of the water for skills nothing beats twice the number of skill bumps and Feats.
Not to mention currently the eidolon doesn't get access to skill Feats which really limits the advantage of a skill build.
A Summoner build for skills easily competes with a Rogue. Not in the same skill sets, but Rogue can't beat all the skill advantages of the Summoner.
Summoner is for example the unmatched Recall Knowledge character. No character can even get close to it.
Definitely skills. A Summoner built for skills is unmatched.Rogue blows the summoner out of the water for skills nothing beats twice the number of skill bumps and Feats.
Not to mention currently the eidolon doesn't get access to skill Feats which really limits the advantage of a skill build.
A Summoner build for skills easily competes with a Rogue. Not in the same skill sets, but Rogue can't beat all the skill advantages of the Summoner.
Summoner is for example the unmatched Recall Knowledge character. No character can even get close to it.
This makes me wonder... Can the summoner/eidolon use the Aid action + reaction on each other?
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Definitely skills. A Summoner built for skills is unmatched.Rogue blows the summoner out of the water for skills nothing beats twice the number of skill bumps and Feats.
Not to mention currently the eidolon doesn't get access to skill Feats which really limits the advantage of a skill build.
A mid level Summoner has a +3 circumstance bonus to most checks their making, as Critical Successes on Aid cease to be hard to come by and their Eidolon keeps up on proficiencies for free.
Not to mention for any skill use not requiring a feat, the Summoner tends to be able to use nearly the best stat possible for the roll for most levels of play.
Not to mention, there's a ton to be said for having an expendable "bomb defusing robot" (bomb defusing is a stand in metaphor) that can do all of this remotely with zero risk.
A Summoner is a different kindof skill monkey than a rogue, but they still are one.
And no one else guarantees that +3/+4 circumstance bonus to any skill theyre a master/legendary in regardless of party comp.
This makes me wonder... Can the summoner/eidolon use the Aid action + reaction on each other?Definitely skills. A Summoner built for skills is unmatched.Rogue blows the summoner out of the water for skills nothing beats twice the number of skill bumps and Feats.
Not to mention currently the eidolon doesn't get access to skill Feats which really limits the advantage of a skill build.
A Summoner build for skills easily competes with a Rogue. Not in the same skill sets, but Rogue can't beat all the skill advantages of the Summoner.
Summoner is for example the unmatched Recall Knowledge character. No character can even get close to it.
As written, theres no reason they can't.
They arent literally the same character.
Just practically, for some purposes, like hp and actions.
This makes me wonder... Can the summoner/eidolon use the Aid action + reaction on each other?Definitely skills. A Summoner built for skills is unmatched.Rogue blows the summoner out of the water for skills nothing beats twice the number of skill bumps and Feats.
Not to mention currently the eidolon doesn't get access to skill Feats which really limits the advantage of a skill build.
A Summoner build for skills easily competes with a Rogue. Not in the same skill sets, but Rogue can't beat all the skill advantages of the Summoner.
Summoner is for example the unmatched Recall Knowledge character. No character can even get close to it.
Of course. Having 2 characters with exactly the same skill proficiency is what makes the Summoner so crazy in skills.
For example, in case of a Recall Knowledge, you roll twice and add successes. It's the only character who can score a double critical success on a Recall Knowledge check (with 4 pieces of information given by the DM).
I have to admit I don't got the expendable trap setter springer line people are taking with the eidolon. If the eidolon gets hurt you get hurt it's as expendable as the summoner is.
As resources go, hitpoints are cheap and easily replaced.
While the summoner may be "hurt", there is minimal persistent danger.
I have to admit I don't got the expendable trap setter springer line people are taking with the eidolon. If the eidolon gets hurt you get hurt it's as expendable as the summoner is.
Being hurt is not much of a problem. Being dead is the real issue. If you have to save against a critted Disintegrate, you'll be happy the one triggering the trap being the Eidolon.
The Eidolon is also the best scout in game as it's expendable and can reach very nice levels in Stealth and crazy levels in Perception.
Definitely, when it comes to skills, the Summoner is one of the best in the game. I even think it's better than Rogues and Investigators but there can be arguments either way.
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Lol there are exactly two players in this playtest that think rendering yourself willfully unconcious repeatedly as a form of benefit.
Being a mobile scout and trap setter by repeatedly forcefully exposing both of yourselves to being beaten into unconciousness repeatedly. But I've also seen you guys talk about how since this is also a intelligent autonomous being you get all these benefits of that as well. You also get detriments.
Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.
As for the double skills argument. That's no different than if another player was helping you except the other player that would want to help you, would have a better proficiency then your eidolon. It's a nice benefit that I'm betting paizo takes it away as an unforseen and unintended benefit.
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Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.
You aren't forcing the eidolon to do anything. It decided to do it itself, because that's how the player wrote it.
Maybe it's noble and selfless? Maybe it's logical and did a risk assessment? Maybe it identifies with Zon Kuthon, and likes the experience?
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Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.
You aren't forcing the eidolon to do anything. It decided to do it itself, because that's how the player wrote it.
Maybe it's noble and selfless? Maybe it's logical and did a risk assessment? Maybe it identifies with Zon Kuthon, and likes the experience?
So you roleplay a selfless masochist with a selfless masochistic eidolon so they can hurt themselves.
I'd rather play an eidolon who wants to kill it's summoner tries to by getting himself knocked out repeatedly and as often as possible.
That's about how I feel about current summoner.
Regardless you and the other player in this playtest will not be able to convince me the summoner is anything other than bad. Yes equivalent to trying to convince me that being shot in the leg increases my speed. I just end up looking at you like you have 3 heads
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Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.
You aren't forcing the eidolon to do anything. It decided to do it itself, because that's how the player wrote it.
Maybe it's noble and selfless? Maybe it's logical and did a risk assessment? Maybe it identifies with Zon Kuthon, and likes the experience?
So you roleplay a selfless masochist with a selfless masochistic eidolon so they can hurt themselves.
I'd rather play an eidolon who wants to kill it's summoner tries to by getting himself knocked out repeatedly and as often as possible.
That's about how I feel about current summoner.
Regardless you and the other player in this playtest will not be able to convince me the summoner is anything other than bad. Yes equivalent to trying to convince me that being shot in the leg increases my speed. I just end up looking at you like you have 3 heads
Being willing to suffer hardship for the benefit of others is typically referred to as "nobility" or "generosity".
If my eidolon can scout with lower risk than anyone else, with almost as much effectiveness, its extremely selfish of me not to do so because I might experience pain.
Actual that does seem like a perk if eidolons don't suffer from death or disintegrate effects at 0hp that's a neat bonus. I suppose that is also a neat way around stuff like petrify and poison if you can just walk 100ft away from them and resummon.
Here is the thing though. The summoner does.
So go on keep making yourself unconcious. They way the eidolon can be free of the summoner as I'm sure it desires.
Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.
You aren't forcing the eidolon to do anything. It decided to do it itself, because that's how the player wrote it.
Maybe it's noble and selfless? Maybe it's logical and did a risk assessment? Maybe it identifies with Zon Kuthon, and likes the experience?
So you roleplay a selfless masochist with a selfless masochistic eidolon so they can hurt themselves.
I'd rather play an eidolon who wants to kill it's summoner tries to by getting himself knocked out repeatedly and as often as possible.
That's about how I feel about current summoner.
Regardless you and the other player in this playtest will not be able to convince me the summoner is anything other than bad. Yes equivalent to trying to convince me that being shot in the leg increases my speed. I just end up looking at you like you have 3 heads
Being willing to suffer hardship for the benefit of others is typically referred to as "nobility" or "generosity".
If my eidolon can scout with lower risk than anyone else, with almost as much effectiveness, its extremely selfish of me not to do so because I might experience pain.
That's a great narrow way to Force the exploit in your favor I guess.
Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.
My Eidolon will stop scouting because he once fall unconscious?
You don't send the Eidolon triggering traps. You send the Eidolon scouting. Triggering traps is the worst that can happen. And if you fall unconscious it means at that stage any other scout would be dead. So, yeah, unconscious is substantially better than dead.As for the double skills argument. That's no different than if another player was helping you except the other player that would want to help you, would have a better proficiency then your eidolon. It's a nice benefit that I'm betting paizo takes it away as an unforseen and unintended benefit.
Better proficiency than the Eidolon? You can be Legendary in all skills, I didn't know that.
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Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.
You aren't forcing the eidolon to do anything. It decided to do it itself, because that's how the player wrote it.
Maybe it's noble and selfless? Maybe it's logical and did a risk assessment? Maybe it identifies with Zon Kuthon, and likes the experience?
So you roleplay a selfless masochist with a selfless masochistic eidolon so they can hurt themselves.
I'd rather play an eidolon who wants to kill it's summoner tries to by getting himself knocked out repeatedly and as often as possible.
That's about how I feel about current summoner.
Regardless you and the other player in this playtest will not be able to convince me the summoner is anything other than bad. Yes equivalent to trying to convince me that being shot in the leg increases my speed. I just end up looking at you like you have 3 heads
It seems a little disingenuous to act like only two people don't think the Summoner is bad. Based on the general response I've seen I'd say most people think the Summoner is fine (not good, not bad) and could use some improvement.
That said, to answer the title question, I don't think the Summoner really excels at anything. That said, I genuinely have no idea what the Summoner should excel at. The Summoner has to carve out a new niche for itself that isn't occupied by other classes, and while it easily does it in concept (a person working together with a monster is definitely a good narrative niche) it's hard to say where it's mechanical niche should be.
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That's a great narrow way to Force the exploit in your favor I guess.
I dont know that nobility and self sacrifice are really supposed to be "narrow" in a game about presumed heroes.
Not everyone plays CN murder hobos. A lot of people are out to do Good, and Good people suffer for the benefit if their friends, allys, and other people.
Watch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.I think this is a player consent issue - the eidolon is a part of the PC in the way that a familiar isn't, and what you suggest would be similar to a GM imposing some kind of long term madness on a PC. Not impossible, but something that should be discussed with the player beforehand.
Actions have consequences. I find it really funny they anyone thinks they paizo will let these corner cases slide on a mechanical level. Expect next iterations to address and remove these dubious benefits somehow like a limit on how often you can summon your eidolon per day
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Actions have consequences. I find it really funny they anyone thinks they paizo will let these corner cases slide on a mechanical level. Expect next iterations to address and remove these dubious benefits somehow like a limit on how often you can summon your eidolon per dayWatch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.I think this is a player consent issue - the eidolon is a part of the PC in the way that a familiar isn't, and what you suggest would be similar to a GM imposing some kind of long term madness on a PC. Not impossible, but something that should be discussed with the player beforehand.
What, you dont like it so now its a corner class exploit and not a core feature of Eidolons?
Its a cool benefit, why are you trying to remove it?
Narratively, angel would definitely scout at risk to themselves, phantoms and beasts could be convinced (especially if they have the skills to), and a dragon is least likely to endanger themself. It is definitely a benefit that the summoner can scout ahead and stand next to a cleric simultaneously.
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Actions have consequences. I find it really funny they anyone thinks they paizo will let these corner cases slide on a mechanical level. Expect next iterations to address and remove these dubious benefits somehow like a limit on how often you can summon your eidolon per dayWatch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.I think this is a player consent issue - the eidolon is a part of the PC in the way that a familiar isn't, and what you suggest would be similar to a GM imposing some kind of long term madness on a PC. Not impossible, but something that should be discussed with the player beforehand.
I don't think it's that much of an exploit. Hell, my groups already disarm traps by having the person with the highest HP walk into them (I've never played with someone with high Thievery).
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Narratively, angel would definitely scout at risk to themselves, phantoms and beasts could be convinced (especially if they have the skills to), and a dragon is least likely to endanger themself. It is definitely a benefit that the summoner can scout ahead and stand next to a cleric simultaneously.
Science Dragon says, "Hmm, yes, the advantages of an immortal body. We haven't tried "Swinging Blade Trap yet"
Science Dragon takes a deep breath and bellows, "FOR SCIENCE!" Before rushing onward.
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Narratively, angel would definitely scout at risk to themselves, phantoms and beasts could be convinced (especially if they have the skills to), and a dragon is least likely to endanger themself. It is definitely a benefit that the summoner can scout ahead and stand next to a cleric simultaneously.Science Dragon says, "Hmm, yes, the advantages of an immortal body. We haven't tried "Swinging Blade Trap yet"
Science Dragon takes a deep breath and bellows, "FOR SCIENCE!" Before rushing onward.
Hah! Thanks for a chuckle this morning. I like science dragon!
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Actions have consequences. I find it really funny they anyone thinks they paizo will let these corner cases slide on a mechanical level. Expect next iterations to address and remove these dubious benefits somehow like a limit on how often you can summon your eidolon per day
We speak of the Playtest Summoner. We can't speak of the final version. Like you do, I think some of these points are exploits. But right now they are part of the class. And they were part of the PF1 Summoner, too. So, I'm not sure they will all be removed.
Actions have consequences. I find it really funny they anyone thinks they paizo will let these corner cases slide on a mechanical level. Expect next iterations to address and remove these dubious benefits somehow like a limit on how often you can summon your eidolon per dayWatch as the DM decides your eidolon begins to hate and resent you for being so cruel to it. And if you think that's unfair, you just want you cake and eat it too.I think this is a player consent issue - the eidolon is a part of the PC in the way that a familiar isn't, and what you suggest would be similar to a GM imposing some kind of long term madness on a PC. Not impossible, but something that should be discussed with the player beforehand.What, you dont like it so now its a corner class exploit and not a core feature of Eidolons?
Its a cool benefit, why are you trying to remove it?
Cool is subjective. It's a cute ribbon to be sure. But it can be used as weight against summoner's budget and brings the class down to unacceptable levels elsewhere. If the only thing you have going is a cute ribbon. It speaks for itself.
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Not sure how much of an exploit it is to repeatedly get yourself knocked out. Unless I missed a special rule for the summoner, each time you hit 0, you go to dying X, and each time you get back up, you get wounded +1, making actually dying that much easier next time. Sure, you are in a presumably more convenient location, but not something I would lean into.
To me. Being a middle of road guy. A class that has a pet and can cast and the pet is a martial. It pretty much does a lot while being mediocre at all of them. But not requirement to much investment in anything.
That is to me what the summoner is.
Martialmasters is strobing so fast between "this is so powerful it's an exploit" and "this is so weak the class stinks" that they should be careful not to vibrate into the next dimension. :b
(Okay, not quite, but I liked that imagery.)
Other than their unique skill and scout situation, it seems like Summoners and their Eidolons will probably end up best at flexibility ― not in the way that Alchemists or certain casters do it, by preparing a bevy of different effects to pass out each day, but in the unique actions their shared character can take and the many ways they have to add onto their personal options.
It also seems this comes at the combined benefit and drawback of being a bog-standard martial and a low-slot support caster at the same time, so I wouldn’t mind some other options to vary up the Eidolon's combat and add onto the Summoner's party support. Being able to take class feats and apply them only to the Eidolon instead of only to the Summoner could be cool, for instance ― that would let your punk-rock guardian angel take Marshal dedication instead of you, or let your phantom remember the protective Fighter techniques they learned in life. Though of course, unique martial-oriented feats to add onto things like improving their attacks and reach are preferable!
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Are you reading the same class as us?Definitely skills. A Summoner built for skills is unmatched.Rogue blows the summoner out of the water for skills nothing beats twice the number of skill bumps and Feats.
Not to mention currently the eidolon doesn't get access to skill Feats which really limits the advantage of a skill build.
A Summoner build for skills easily competes with a Rogue. Not in the same skill sets, but Rogue can't beat all the skill advantages of the Summoner.
Summoner is for example the unmatched Recall Knowledge character. No character can even get close to it.
Seems unlikely, right?
And yet Bidi is objectively correct here - no one else can roll Recall Knowledge better than a summoner and an Eidolon, whose recall knowledge DCs get harder slower and whom can roll a second check after failing.
Not to mention aiding one another on the check for minimal cost, since preparing to aid can happen on the Act Together action.
Not to mention, there's a ton to be said for having an expendable "bomb defusing robot" (bomb defusing is a stand in metaphor) that can do all of this remotely with zero risk.Uh.. no? The Eidolon takes damage, so do I. Soo... It's more like a bomb defusing robot linked to a pacemaker owned by the Summoner.
Example - Any player character dropped to zero hitpoints by a Death Effect or Disintiegrate dies instantly. If an Eidolon is reduced to zero hitpoints, it vanishes and the Summoner is one Medicine Check away from being perfectly unwounded and alive.
This does happen. It happened to one of my PCs in one of my Age of Ashes campaigns. A Summoner would have shrugged it off in ten minutes.
That's a potent and unique benefit.
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Summoners excel at teamwork. Their strength (and weakness) is that they have two bodies to work with.
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Not sure how much of an exploit it is to repeatedly get yourself knocked out. Unless I missed a special rule for the summoner, each time you hit 0, you go to dying X, and each time you get back up, you get wounded +1, making actually dying that much easier next time. Sure, you are in a presumably more convenient location, but not something I would lean into.
The Treat Wounds Exploration Action removes the Wounded condition on a success. Pretty sure that covers everything here.
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IMO the worst case rebalance Paizo will do if they find that Bomb Diffusal Eidolon is too overpowered would probably just be making it so that the Summoner can only manifest the Eidolon X+Charisma times per day, killing two birds with one stone by making Charisma a more meaningful stat for the Summoner while limiting the number of bomb runs an Eidolon could be expected to make.
That said, I eagerly wait for the Minmaxed Aid Another Skill Eidolon build in the Playtest. Throw in the Pathfinder Agent dedication so that Aiding your Eidolon gives you the Aid bonus too; probably a bunch of other Aid boosts out there that I never noticed in the past as well.
Hah! Thanks for a chuckle this morning. I like science dragon!Narratively, angel would definitely scout at risk to themselves, phantoms and beasts could be convinced (especially if they have the skills to), and a dragon is least likely to endanger themself. It is definitely a benefit that the summoner can scout ahead and stand next to a cleric simultaneously.Science Dragon says, "Hmm, yes, the advantages of an immortal body. We haven't tried "Swinging Blade Trap yet"
Science Dragon takes a deep breath and bellows, "FOR SCIENCE!" Before rushing onward.
We do what we must because we can.
It's not likely that triggering a deadly trap will be a thing that happens so often. Limiting the numer of times that the eidolon can be manifested would only be an annoyance and something you have to keep track of, while not limiting the bomb defusal thing in any meaningful way, unless you are slowly treading upon a minefield of sort.
It's still something that when it happens, even if only once during a campaign, means saving a PC's life. Not bad.
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And yet Bidi is objectively correct here - no one else can roll Recall Knowledge better than a summoner and an Eidolon, whose recall knowledge DCs get harder slower and whom can roll a second check after failing.
Any class with maximum Int/Wis and access to a roll twice focus power and/or a "boost your result" feat is better than a summoner and his eidolon because the summoner can't max a recall knowledge attribute and the eidolon lags heavily in mental stats. An investigator with knowledge domain power or the enigma bard reroll can crush these.
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Any class with maximum Int/Wis and access to a roll twice focus power and/or a "boost your result" feat is better than a summoner and his eidolon because the summoner can't max a recall knowledge attribute and the eidolon lags heavily in mental stats. An investigator with knowledge domain power or the enigma bard reroll can crush these.And yet Bidi is objectively correct here - no one else can roll Recall Knowledge better than a summoner and an Eidolon, whose recall knowledge DCs get harder slower and whom can roll a second check after failing.
Haven't personally looked into Enigma Bard, but if we're breaking out Domain powers on an Investigator from Multiclassing, there's nothing stopping the Summoner from Multiclassing as well. Heck, Loremaster is an archetype that grants a Bardic Knowledge-equivalent skill that lets you roll on any Recall Knowledge. AND, because of how Summoner works, your Eidolon also gets your training in Loremaster Lore.