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I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue.
See, the issue with this is that, fundamentally, that's not what most people who want to play a Synthesis user want.
They want to be their Eidolon, especially in combat. That's the fundamental thing they desire, and having this doesn't actually do that, no matter how useful it is occasionally for other stuff.
I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue.
Intrigue? Who is it fooling? It's got a magic glowing sigil that can’t be obscured what like a big blinking 'hi! I'm an Eidolon/Summoner!' sign. :P
I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue.Intrigue? Who is it fooling? It's got a magic glowing sigil that can’t be obscured what like a big blinking 'hi! I'm an Eidolon/Summoner!' sign. :P
Do you like our matching magical tattoos? We got them in Katapesh - they're all the rage.
Do you like our matching magical tattoos? We got them in Katapesh - they're all the rage.I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue.Intrigue? Who is it fooling? It's got a magic glowing sigil that can’t be obscured what like a big blinking 'hi! I'm an Eidolon/Summoner!' sign. :P
"This sigil, combined with the way that the two of you clearly act in tandem, makes it readily apparent to an intelligent observer that the two of you have some connection with each other, even if that onlooker doesn’t know what a summoner or an eidolon is"
It's pretty clear that that intent is that "even if that onlooker doesn’t know what a summoner or an eidolon is" that they aren't 'normal' to an "intelligent observer": the type of creature you;d be trying to use "Intrigue" against...
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I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue. In that vein, as well as being a fair bit more defensive than having one squishy mage body to worry about, it's a useful, potentially very useful tool in the toolbox. Which is, to be fair, what a first-level feat is meant to be.And this is why it shouldn't be a feat in the first place. People from 1E expect the synthesis to be a fighting option. It's the exact same problem as the mutagenist.
Conversely, I don't think this edition should be constrained by the whims of the prior. Now, I completely get that people want to play the Synthesist, and I do get that the name is misleading, but the ability as-is isn't a terrible one. I still hope that something akin to the Synthesist from first edition is possible, but that doesn't have to be at the expense of this feat's existence. Perhaps the name though.
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Conversely, I don't think this edition should be constrained by the whims of the prior. Now, I completely get that people want to play the Synthesist, and I do get that the name is misleading, but the ability as-is isn't a terrible one. I still hope that something akin to the Synthesist from first edition is possible, but that doesn't have to be at the expense of this feat's existence. Perhaps the name though.I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue. In that vein, as well as being a fair bit more defensive than having one squishy mage body to worry about, it's a useful, potentially very useful tool in the toolbox. Which is, to be fair, what a first-level feat is meant to be.And this is why it shouldn't be a feat in the first place. People from 1E expect the synthesis to be a fighting option. It's the exact same problem as the mutagenist.
I agree, this edition should forge it's own way forward.
Though I disagree that the feat isn't terrible. I, as others have also said, simply can't fathom a reason why you would ever want to use it over JUST manifesting your Eidolon. If there were feats up the chain that empowered your Synthesized form (these could exist in the finished class, who knows?) or something then we could talk. But trading in half your class (spellcasting) to just be the other half (Eidolon things) is just... bad.
Conversely, I don't think this edition should be constrained by the whims of the prior. Now, I completely get that people want to play the Synthesist, and I do get that the name is misleading, but the ability as-is isn't a terrible one. I still hope that something akin to the Synthesist from first edition is possible, but that doesn't have to be at the expense of this feat's existence. Perhaps the name though.I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue. In that vein, as well as being a fair bit more defensive than having one squishy mage body to worry about, it's a useful, potentially very useful tool in the toolbox. Which is, to be fair, what a first-level feat is meant to be.And this is why it shouldn't be a feat in the first place. People from 1E expect the synthesis to be a fighting option. It's the exact same problem as the mutagenist.
I think we both agree that a full synthesist build (like in 1E) should be possible.
But then, if something akin to the Synthesist from first edition is possible without the feat, then what would be the purpose of the feat? If you let the summoner choose at creation if he wants a standard eidolon OR a syntesis eidolon and then you create a feat that let you get both options, you get the best of both world :1 - The "full synthesis" build is possible and not gimped.
2 - The "full eidolon" build is possible and not gimped.
3 - The "eidolon/synthesis" build is possible.
And if getting both options for a 1st level feat is too strong, you can either (or both) :
1 - Increase the level of the feat.
2 - Add drawbacks to the feat.
Just add more feats like the Wild Shape feats for Druid where it let you do more stuff in the combined form.
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If there were feats up the chain that empowered your Synthesized form
I don't think it should. You're already trading 1 action per turn or more considering Tandem actions. That alone is a really big drawback. Adding feats to make it better would just be tax feats in the end. Just let the summoner choose at creation if they want to be a synthesis or a standard summoner. People expect to be able to play a full synthesis melee summoner exactly like they were expecting to be able to play a full melee mutagenist.
I personally feel that this current version of Synthesis makes the character weaker but I will playtest it.
Just keep in mind that synthesis should probably be used sparingly in it's current form because the only thing you're slightly better at is defense. You're loosing even on action economy and versatility.
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Seems like Synthesist has benefits in tactical positioning and resilience. 1st when battlefield crowding would interfere with ally positioning/AoE casting, or when 2nd body means opening up more routes of attack compared to 1 body. 2nd is related to that, considering Master and Eidolon may each be personally weak in certain defences which can be targetted. If both hit in AoE or multi-target attack/spell, the default is the worst of the 2 effects... so Synthesist reduces vulnerabilities.
I could see design space for upgrade feat to Synthesist allowing to use your mental stats (with Eidolon's physical stats) like how Twin Eidolon works (just without the Twin part). That could possibly go along with allowing you to cast your own normal spells in Synthesist form, although perhaps that might be separate upgrade Feat.
Hard to really complain about Synthesist as Feat, being it's just 1st level. Better effects or options could be plausible as higher level Feats enhancing it, but the low level Feat itself doesn't seem a problem IMHO. Obviously, I just started looking at the Playtest like everybody else, so normal caveats apply...
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I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue.Intrigue? Who is it fooling? It's got a magic glowing sigil that can’t be obscured what like a big blinking 'hi! I'm an Eidolon/Summoner!' sign. :P
Intrigue doesn't always have to be all subtlety all the time. The following are mere examples; there are presumably many more ways to pull off this sort of thing... So long as you're not a Dragon, anyway. Not all of them even rely on dishonesty.
Striding into the local Temple of Sarenrae as a glowing celestial being with a burning sigil on your brow and an iridescent scimitar in your hand... That's probably going to net you a bit of clout with the clergy, and some powerful allies in the local community. It helps that your Eidolon might actually BE a servitor of Sarenrae.
"I shall send a mortal envoy in due course; you will know them, for they bear my sigil upon their palm."
Or you could stage a haunting with your Flickering Phantom, using its spellcasting to poltergeist up the joint with Telekinetic Projectile and Ghost Sound. If it speaks the local language, you could make some very guilty people suddenly extremely honest out of fear of the beyond, perhaps speeding your Investigation along quite handily.
"WHOoOo DAares disTUuURB ThE AnciEnt FoRtunE Of ThE MAnOR??"
If you're dealing with the intrigues of the Fey, they may well respect you more if you take an interesting, primal form that speaks the lingo and knows how to tap into some real emotion. Be a terrifying yet elegant beast of the natural world, not some mortal who's besties with one.
"RRRAAAAGGH! FEAR ME, PUNY YET ALSO BEAUTIFUL AND STYLISH FEY CREATURES!"
Dragons... Suck at intrigue, probably. Most arcane-savvy folks will realise that you're a weird, slightly pathetic excuse for a draconic being. Kobolds, however, are your secret weapon here. Dominate some slightly smaller scalefolk and earn yourself an army of saboteurs; all you need to do is look like a dragon, act like a dragon, and be stronger than them.
"You were born to serve at my heel. If you displease me, you will find that you were born instead to be served upon my table."
As to the symbol thing... If you're present alongside your Eidolon, the sigil makes it clear that whichever ethereal being you summon is actually connected to a mortal, casting aspersions on their planar purity or state of undeath or cool animal vibe or inherent draconic superiority. If you're wearing the ethereal being, however, there's nothing to suggest that people automatically recognise the sigil as "yep, definitely an eidolon" rather than "whoah, that's probably powerful".
Like, if you're a Hellknight Summoner with a Devilish Eidolon bearing an Order of the Gate symbol in Cheliax... Sure, yeah, everyone's gonna know what's up. But knowing your audience could allow some madcap bamboozles to be pulled.
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Hard to really complain about Synthesist as Feat, being it's just 1st level. Better effects or options could be plausible as higher level Feats enhancing it, but the low level Feat itself doesn't seem a problem IMHO. Obviously, I just started looking at the Playtest like everybody else, so normal caveats apply...
It's not a bad Feat if you only use it for non-combat stuff and occasionally very situationally in combat...but that's not how people want to use it.
It's a trap, because people will want to, and try to, use it as a primary combat tactic, and that's honestly a pretty terrible idea as a primary strategy with the Feat as it currently stands.
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I really don't see Synthesis as a primary combat option so much as a tool for utility or intrigue.Intrigue? Who is it fooling? It's got a magic glowing sigil that can’t be obscured what like a big blinking 'hi! I'm an Eidolon/Summoner!' sign. :PIntrigue doesn't always have to be all subtlety all the time. The following are mere examples; there are presumably many more ways to pull off this sort of thing... So long as you're not a Dragon, anyway. Not all of them even rely on dishonesty.
Striding into the local Temple of Sarenrae as a glowing celestial being with a burning sigil on your brow and an iridescent scimitar in your hand... That's probably going to net you a bit of clout with the clergy, and some powerful allies in the local community. It helps that your Eidolon might actually BE a servitor of Sarenrae.
"I shall send a mortal envoy in due course; you will know them, for they bear my sigil upon their palm."Or you could stage a haunting with your Flickering Phantom, using its spellcasting to poltergeist up the joint with Telekinetic Projectile and Ghost Sound. If it speaks the local language, you could make some very guilty people suddenly extremely honest out of fear of the beyond, perhaps speeding your Investigation along quite handily.
"WHOoOo DAares disTUuURB ThE AnciEnt FoRtunE Of ThE MAnOR??"If you're dealing with the intrigues of the Fey, they may well respect you more if you take an interesting, primal form that speaks the lingo and knows how to tap into some real emotion. Be a terrifying yet elegant beast of the natural world, not some mortal who's besties with one.
"RRRAAAAGGH! FEAR ME, PUNY YET ALSO BEAUTIFUL AND STYLISH FEY CREATURES!"Dragons... Suck at intrigue, probably. Most arcane-savvy folks will realise that you're a weird, slightly pathetic excuse for a draconic being. Kobolds, however, are your secret weapon here. Dominate some slightly smaller scalefolk and earn yourself an army of saboteurs; all you...
1. Claiming to be an envoy of a God in their own temple requires dishonesty. So unless you actually ARE sent by Sarenrae to one of her temples, I would probably avoid flaunting the Angel around, for similar reasons why if you didn't serve in the military I wouldn't think you should wear the Uniform. Sort of a Stolen Valor thing there.
2. Staging a haunting with a, corporeal mind you, Phantom "flickering" or not, requires dishonesty.
3. The Fae one seems fine. Useless, given that they'll see the connection between you and your Eidolon as quickly as any Wizard with their knowledge of the natural world. Some may even view the link between Summoner and Eidolon as Profane, depending on their predilections.
4. So your "totally honest, no subtlety here" answer for dragon is kobolds? Like tricking a bunch of Kobolds into serving a "Dragon" (that likely isn't more than large unless later levels) that isn't actually a Dragon isn't dishonest.
I see the note about the Sigil as being Paizo's answer to this Exact line of thinking: No, you don't get to pretend to be something you are not for free by being a Summoner. You still have to roll a Disguise roll, or failing that a Deception.
Sure, maybe I'd give out a Circumstance bonus to such checks in some of these situations, but I'm still going to require the enterprising player to roll a Deception/Disguise to actually convince someone they are what they claim.
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Though I disagree that the feat isn't terrible. I, as others have also said, simply can't fathom a reason why you would ever want to use it over JUST manifesting your Eidolon.
The dungeon is flooded and mostly underwater. As everyone else burns through consumables and spell slots to breathe underwater, swim at a speed that doesn't leave them completely outclassed by aquatic opponents, and look for ways to mitigate the penalty to their attack rolls, you simply take on the form of an aquatic dragon and automatically bypass all of those obstacles.
The dungeon is full of traps and small, crafty enemies who can outflank you. You minimize your weak points, remove the increased damage you'd otherwise take from area effects, and leave only the tougher and more heavily armored eidolon in play to navigate the hazards.
You're a goblin in a town full of murderous, racist rednecks. You let the angel cruise around improving the party's reputation while you keep your bouncy green head safely secured in a separate level of existence until you're back on the road to adventure (and out of town).
You're a human who needs to navigate tight, pitch-black corridors in an environment where a torch could attract unwanted attention. It's too cramped to ride and too dangerous to try and move with your senses keyed into the eidolon. You turn into an ethereal phantom who can see in the dark, is less likely to be devastated by unexpected attacks or hazards, and who can gain resistance to most forms of damage.
A deadly curse or plague infests the adventure area, keyed to members of your ancestry. You tag out with your angel buddy and let them go clean up the mess while you stay safely tucked away on another level of existence.
You must fight your way across a battlefield full of evil fiends with devastating area attacks, invisibility, and other deadly trickery at their disposal. You let your angel handle this leg of the trip, trusting in its superior defenses and weakness-triggering attacks to carry the day while protecting both of you from ambush and disadvantage against the area attacks by squirreling away your squishy mortal form.
Just to name a few possible examples. Basically any time the eidolon has a sensory ability, movement mode, or other benefit that you lack but is pertinent to the environment and the party is in danger of ambush or hazard, there's some benefit to Synthesis. Riding the eidolon is cool, but it also pretty much guarantees that you'll be rolling twice and taking the worse result against any AoEs that get lobbed your way, and some aspects of relevant abilities, like Amphibious Form giving the ability to breathe or attack without penalty underwater, won't transfer to a rider.
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It's not what I want from a synthesist.
I want to choice to be permanent. I don't want to have the option to use the eidolon separately.
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1. Claiming to be an envoy of a God in their own temple requires dishonesty. So unless you actually ARE sent by Sarenrae to one of her temples, I would probably avoid flaunting the Angel around, for similar reasons why if you didn't serve in the military I wouldn't think you should wear the Uniform. Sort of a Stolen Valor thing there.
2. Staging a haunting with a, corporeal mind you, Phantom "flickering" or not, requires dishonesty.
3. The Fae one seems fine. Useless, given that they'll see the connection between you and your Eidolon as quickly as any Wizard with their knowledge of the natural world. Some may even view the link between Summoner and Eidolon as Profane, depending on their predilections.
4. So your "totally honest, no subtlety here" answer for dragon is kobolds? Like tricking a bunch of Kobolds into serving a "Dragon" (that likely isn't more than large unless later levels) that isn't actually a Dragon isn't dishonest.
Okay so hold up. This was all meant to provide examples of intrigue in direct response to graystone saying that an Eidolon's unsubtlety made them unsuitable for the task. I said not all of them need to be dishonest, but most of the examples of intrigue are absolutely going to be dishonest and as such would require deception checks. Secrets and trickery are sort of what intrigue campaigns are all about, and I merely intended to provide a bit of a spin on that idea.
The temple example is indeed the one that could be performed without dishonesty on the part of the Eidolon, and was meant to illustrate that not all intrigue must be subtle. The Summoner isn't using the Eidolon as a mouthpiece or anything here; the point was was about the legitimately Angelic Eidolon manifesting in order to use their divine mandate to aid in the party's overall mission; a mission quite possibly set by the relevant authority in the first place. In this case, this is done by gaining allies in the temple, thus giving the Eidolon-Summoner duo more general clout in the upper echelons of whatever settlement we're talking about. Pragmatic? Yes. Dishonest? Not necessarily, given that Angelic Eidolons are actually divine messengers.
As far as the Phantom is concerned, yeah, it's a classic scooby-doo style staged haunting. Those are usually done with flickery lights and exceedingly corporeal special effects in the fiction. This does indeed use inherently dishonest means, as appropriate to the noir mystery campaign implied by the setup and rather on-the-nose punchline.
Similarly, I absolutely agree that many Fey would see exactly what the Bestial Eidolon is. That is, a primal spirit of nature subsuming a mortal soul in order to placate their petty judgements. Much better than a mortal presenting themselves as an equal to said Eidolon, from a flighty, vain perspective. A useful diplomatic aid based once again in trickery, albeit self-aware, obvious trickery disguising several layers of deception because... That's just what fey stories do?
I am not certain how you could read the last section and think that I genuinely believed this not to be dishonest. It's a barefaced lie, perpetrated by an unabashedly evil character, presumably in some sort of political sabotage or heist story. Certainly not a PC I'd ever play; it was simply the only real concept wherein a short, flightless Dragon could be a diplomatic asset instead of an obstacle.
In any case, I never once intended to imply that the Summoner could pretend to be something that they're not without a check. What they CAN do, however, is stop being what they are, and manifest something else entirely in their place. The Eidolon is then the one making any requisite checks, since the Summoner literally can't act at this point. In the above cases, it's not so much disguise (as they are indeed the creature types they claim to be*), but it would be diplomacy, deception, and intimidation that take the forefront.
None of this is really about the summoner, sorry; I just felt I had to clarify my point given that it apparently did not at all get through the first time.
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*The Phantom isn't quite right, but Phantoms look roughly like how people think ghosts look. Any Occult professional would probably spot the ruse pretty quickly given the lack of attempted disguise.
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It's not what I want from a synthesist.
I want to choice to be permanent. I don't want to have the option to use the eidolon separately.
Yeah, I'm sort of in this boat myself. Having normal Summoner and Synthesist be Class Paths would let Synthesist be a lot more powerful, too. In that case, the action economy lost is probably sufficient and they could likely keep full stats and spellcasting (such as it is).
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Though I disagree that the feat isn't terrible. I, as others have also said, simply can't fathom a reason why you would ever want to use it over JUST manifesting your Eidolon.
The dungeon is flooded and mostly underwater. As everyone else burns through consumables and spell slots to breathe underwater, swim at a speed that doesn't leave them completely outclassed by aquatic opponents, and look for ways to mitigate the penalty to their attack rolls, you simply take on the form of an aquatic dragon and automatically bypass all of those obstacles.
The dungeon is full of traps and small, crafty enemies who can outflank you. You minimize your weak points, remove the increased damage you'd otherwise take from area effects, and leave only the tougher and more heavily armored eidolon in play to navigate the hazards.
You're a goblin in a town full of murderous, racist rednecks. You let the angel cruise around improving the party's reputation while you keep your bouncy green head safely secured in a separate level of existence until you're back on the road to adventure (and out of town).
You're a human who needs to navigate tight, pitch-black corridors in an environment where a torch could attract unwanted attention. It's too cramped to ride and too dangerous to try and move with your senses keyed into the eidolon. You turn into an ethereal phantom who can see in the dark, is less likely to be devastated by unexpected attacks or hazards, and who can gain resistance to most forms of damage.
A deadly curse or plague infests the adventure area, keyed to...
Every single one of those scenarios can be defeated through other means, or require specific ancestries to be necessary in the first place.
They also tend to require the "perfect" choice in Eidolon to combat, as in the case of an Aquatic adapted Eidolon and the Angel in the battlefield.
Dealing with "dungeon full of traps and small, crafty enemies that can outflank you," sounds like any given dungeon dive. A dungeon dive where a Summoner may find the ability to cast spells useful I'd dare say.
With the proliferation of low-light and darkvision in the ancestries and versatile heritages, shifting into your Eidolon (especially when you can already share senses with it without losing your spellcasting) feels like a poor replacement for a torch. Or gloomseer for human's specifically.
I suppose if you were playing a 1 man army campaign, with no party to lean on and support you, maybe Synthesis would be vital in these instances. Buuuut that's not the game most of us play I'd wager.
And in every one of these instances, you are losing the ability to cast spells, including cantrips, that may or may not help as much or more than synthing. In fact, you are also more than likely losing the ability to effectively communicate with your party:
SPEAKING
As long as you can act, you can also speak. You don’t
need to spend any type of action to speak, but because a
round represents 6 seconds of time, you can usually speak
at most a single sentence or so per round. Special uses
of speech, such as attempting a Deception skill check to
Lie, require spending actions and follow their own rules.
All speech has the auditory trait. If you communicate in
some way other than speech, other rules might apply. For
instance, using sign language is visual instead of auditory.
Since you can’t act, you can’t Cast Spells, activate or benefit from magic items that normally benefit you and not your eidolon, perform actions that have the tandem trait, or use other abilities that require you, and not the eidolon, to act. Your eidolon isn’t limited by their distance to you, and you can’t be separately targeted. When you reach 0 Hit Points, your eidolon unmanifests from your body, leaving your unconscious body behind.
Since you can't act while Synthesized, the only speech your "form" is capable of is in the language that your Eidolon speaks, and arguably, it's speech is it's own.
Side Note: This actually creates an odd "Rules Bug". Your Eidolon doesn't have actions or a reaction, and you can't act. By the rules when you can't act, you don't regain your actions or reaction at the beginning of your turn. That is obviously not intended, and should probably be put forward in the Feedback.
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Every single one of those scenarios can be defeated through other means,
Of course they can. That doesn’t mean it's not more efficient and effective for the summoner to use Synthesis and dominate them in a way others can't without burning limited resources.
or require specific ancestries to be necessary in the first place.
And? No one's saying it's universally the best option, just that there are lots of circumstances where it has genuine advantages over having two bodies on the field.
They also tend to require the "perfect" choice in Eidolon to combat, as in the case of an Aquatic adapted Eidolon and the Angel in the battlefield.
Not really. If you're playing Wrath of the Righteous, it's not really a surprise that an angel companion is going to be good. Amphibious is a natural pick-up for just about any eidolon and can even be swapped into with an evening's notice using feats like Transmogrify and True Transmogrification.
Dealing with "dungeon full of traps and small, crafty enemies that can outflank you," sounds like any given dungeon dive. A dungeon dive where a Summoner may find the ability to cast spells useful I'd dare say.
It's not mutually exclusive, especially if the nature of your limited spell slots is focused on buffing and utility spells. You might even go in separated and then only synthesize when you're either out of spell slots or when party healing resources are running low enough that it's wiser to protect the squishy part of your build. You probably won't want to shift during encounters, but it's super easy to do between encounters and it turns the eidolon into a handy toolbox of utility options that in many instances will be better than the spells you have available. Synthesis is an option, not your only option, and it gets more attractive the lower you run on your other, very limited, resources.
With the proliferation of low-light and darkvision in the ancestries and versatile heritages, shifting into your Eidolon (especially when you can already share senses with it without losing your spellcasting) feels like a poor replacement for a torch. Or gloomseer for human's specifically.
Maybe my human is from one of the hundreds of places detailed in the setting that's not Nidal. Maybe I just want to use my ancestry feats to do more interesting things (especially since it takes me 1st and 5th level ancestry feats, Gloomseer and Darkseer, to get darkvision, and I could just take Natural Ambition for Synthesis and get a much more diverse packet of abilities while jumping straight to darkvision). Maybe using a torch in an unlit environment will make the party into a target and/or attract unwanted attention. Again, useful and universally useful are not the same thing, and very few things are universally useful.
I suppose if you were playing a 1 man army campaign, with no party to lean on and support you, maybe Synthesis would be vital in these instances. Buuuut that's not the game most of us play I'd wager.
That blue text in each example I gave was a hyperlink to a highly rated, bestselling adventure where the obstacle I detailed in the attached paragraph plays a major role. So while most people may not be playing the strawman argument quoted directly above, thousands of people are definitely playing the game I described.
For example, water breathing is a 2nd level spell. Feet to fins is a 3rd level spell. Synthesizing into an aquatic dragon takes zero spell slots, scrolls, or other consumables and will vastly outlast all of those spells, so if you have Synthesis and you need to traverse an aquatic dungeon, you're saving the party massive amounts of character resource that can't just be emulated by summoning the eidolon separately. You could even be the one providing those buffs for some of the party members before assuming your synthesized form, since you don't need to use slots to provide those benefits to yourself. That's useful.
And that was the only point I was making; you said you couldn't imagine a situation where Synthesis would be better than just summoning the eidolon separately, I pointed out half a dozen with links to published adventures where those exact situations come up and Synthesis would be handy. That doesn’t mean that Synthesis can't/shouldn't evolve during the course of the playtest or that there's not alternate routes to get similar results; in fact, if it were the only way to do those things, it'd be a huge problem. But there are a wide array of situations where it's extremely useful and that utility can allow the entire party to leverage their spell slots and consumables towards more efficient ends. It's not really spectacular as a combat form, but it's really handy as a customizable utility form that plugs holes in your build or capabilities and allows you to do many things more efficiently and effectively than even limited magic spells can. There really aren't many other 1st level feats that open up that kind of versatility.
Another way to look at it: Synthesis allows you to take your animal companion++ and swap it out over the course of 2 rounds for a highly customized version of wildshape that can do many things wildshape can't do at the same levels. Then, in the same brief period of time, you can swap back from "wildshape" to your animal companion++.
Now, whether that's what people want out of that kind of ability is an entirely different story, and that's what playtesting and feedback are for.
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Not sure if its been brought up as a suggestion in-thread yet (lot of text) but would the option of like a Level 8+ feat that just auto-applied either Boost Eidolon or Reinforce Eidolon (assuming you have it) fix the problems people think exists here with balance? At that point you've burned 2 feats sure but now your Synthesist is functioning at roughly the same level as a normally manifested Eidolon and you can just pretend you're a magical vigilante with a Combat form and a Social form.
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Omitted for brevity.
I see your point. I just don't care much for corner case utility feats that require specific choices to be truly useful. Yeah, a water adapted Eidolon can make Feet to Fins/Water Breathing unnecessary. But that requires either a 4th level feat on top of your 1st, or the use of a Focus Spell that you can't cast while Synthesized. So summon the Eidolon, cast Evolution Surge (1 minute duration so better make those 8 rounds count), then Synthesize with it. It doesn't help that in my gaming group anyway, I can count on 1 hand every time that the party found themselves with any underwater gameplay to tangle with, and I'm pretty confident that I was the GM whenever there did happen to be underwater content.
Out of combat, and with the proper feat allocation, sure you have a point. But now you are putting your eggs into that basket, instead of Alacritous, Tandem Move or Unarmed Evolution, all of which are more widely applicable most of the time.
I guess my point is, why invest class feats (3 of your 10 assuming you only grab transmogs for movement adaptation evolutions, up to 4 of your 10 if you don't) into situations that can be solved using gear or spells?
Using Synthesis in the way you describe requires foreknowledge of what you are going to encounter. Carrying a torch/ scroll of waterbreathing etc... is just being prepared.
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Not sure if its been brought up as a suggestion in-thread yet (lot of text) but would the option of like a Level 8+ feat that just auto-applied either Boost Eidolon or Reinforce Eidolon (assuming you have it) fix the problems people think exists here with balance? At that point you've burned 2 feats sure but now your Synthesist is functioning at roughly the same level as a normally manifested Eidolon and you can just pretend you're a magical vigilante with a Combat form and a Social form.
No. That means we'll have to wait until level 8+ to be an effective synthesist. The thing is, synthesis shouldn't be about getting more option/flexibility. It should be about fighting differently. Synthesist should be a battle option, not a flexibility one.
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Put me in the camp that says Synthesist should be a class path chosen at the start. Would make it way easier to balance, and the crossover feats could have any requisite nerfs to prevent cheese.
Put me in the camp that says Synthesist should be a class path chosen at the start. Would make it way easier to balance, and the crossover feats could have any requisite nerfs to prevent cheese.I want to start by saying that I fundamentally agree. However, Paizo is obviously using the eidolon type as the class path, and it seems they don't like having two different class paths. I would love for them to give us class paths for these kinds of things. I wonder if there's some other way they could do it? Maybe give the Summoner a 1st-level class feat, and make the only 1st level feats effectively equivalent to class paths? Only choose at level 1, can't retrain out of them, etc? This does seem like it's getting a bit overly complex though
Eidolon types (dragon, beast, etc) should be like wizard's Arcane Schools and we should get something like Arcane Thesis for synthesist/not synthesist.
Omitted for brevity.I see your point. I just don't care much for corner case utility feats that require specific choices to be truly useful.
True Transmogrification and Transmogrify solves this to an extent by allowing you to exchange Evolution feats: It's only during Prep, so you have to know before hand that you'll need it but it makes picking situational Evolutions suck much less.
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True Transmogrification and Transmogrify solves this to an extent by allowing you to exchange Evolution feats: It's only during Prep, so you have to know before hand that you'll need it but it makes picking situational Evolutions suck much less.Omitted for brevity.I see your point. I just don't care much for corner case utility feats that require specific choices to be truly useful.
I do like Transmog/True Transmog. It's basically Combat Flexibility from the Fighter in feat form. Maybe Transmog should be a Class Feature rather than a feat? Put it at 9th and 15th like the Fighter, instead of making them compete with other feats, and they get much more attractive.
Or perhaps, as others are saying, make it a class path choice. A "shifting summoner" or something like that who get's more abilities to customize their Eidolon on the fly than your standard Summoner.
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Just to name a few possible examples. Basically any time the eidolon has a sensory ability, movement mode, or other benefit that you lack but is pertinent to the environment and the party is in danger of ambush or hazard, there's some benefit to Synthesis. Riding the eidolon is cool, but it also pretty much guarantees that you'll be rolling twice and taking the worse result against any AoEs that get lobbed your way, and some aspects of relevant abilities, like Amphibious Form giving the ability to breathe or attack without penalty underwater, won't transfer to a rider.
Synthesis is a potentially useful utility Feat. Taken in isolation, it's not a bad one, since it just flatly adds an option. Having it is never worse than not having it, and often better.
None of that is the problem with Synthesis. The problem with Synthesis is that usually, absent weird environmental conditions your Eidolon is immune to, actually using it in combat is actively detrimental and bad. And people want to use it in combat, in fact, most people who want it want to use it exclusively, they never actually want to put out an Eidolon separate from themselves.
The particular fantasy archetype of wearing an Eidolon as a transformation or suit of power armor is almost completely separate from that of having a pet, and people who want one seldom want the other thematically. And the Feat doesn't actually make that a good, reasonable, or fun play style at all. It's frustrating and feels like a trap option because it doesn't actually enable the thematic thing it references from PF1 as a remotely viable option, but sort of looks like it does.
And, for many people, that's both frustrating and disappointing.
The only Summoner I ever played in PF1 was a Synthesist, specifically he was an Aasimar who 'assumed his full angelic glory' via his Synthesist ability to 'wear' his Eidolon. That character rarely used spells in combat (he used the Create Pit line occasionally, and definitely used healing spells on himself, plus utility) and never a single summoning spell, I assure you. He just got to be a giant, six winged, angelic warrior most of the time. And that's a fun concept that I don't think is any more unbalanced than summoning such an angelic warrior.
I cannot play that character in a remotely viable fashion in PF2 with Synthesis. And yet, the rules are all there to allow it with just a few changes. Which is, as I said a couple of times, pretty frustrating.
I certainly don't think all the 'this Feat is useless' comments are entirely fair, but people are coming from a place of 'I want to use this all the time, never summoning my Eidolon separate from me' and for that specific thing it is, indeed, pretty useless, inasmuch as it does not make that play style anything but objectively worse than just doing normal things with your Eidolon without the Feat.
So, from the perspective of 'If I take this Feat I will always use it' it makes your character actively worse than not taking it. Only by usually ignoring its existence unless there's a specific reason to use it does it become good, and precious few people interested in this Feat actually want to do that.
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Having it is never worse than not having it, and often better.except it uses a feat slot that could be used for something more worthwhile.
That can be said about any Feat depending on one's definition of 'worthwhile'. I mean, they all preclude having other Feats instead.
But really, I don't think the argument about Synthesis's quality as a Feat in objective mechanical terms is productive.
The issue is not really whether what it does now is a good utility option, it's that what it does now is not remotely what people want from a 'Synthesis' style effect and they're bound to be disappointed by it for that reason, irrespective of it's quality as such an option.
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I have to agree with most of you here; the real issue is that Synth should really be a subclass or option a Summoner has to commit to at creation.
People are looking at a playstyle not at all satisfied with the current playtest implementation.
People want to play Synthesist Summoner, they want to be in the monster suit as a primary form of combat; they do not want to pick up Synthesis as some niche and small utility tool that will become completely obsolete at lv.18 with Twin Eidolon.
There is a reason this is the most popular thread under the Summoner's playtest portion of the forum.
Having it is never worse than not having it, and often better.except it uses a feat slot that could be used for something more worthwhile.That can be said about any Feat depending on one's definition of 'worthwhile'. I mean, they all preclude having other Feats instead.
But really, I don't think the argument about Synthesis's quality as a Feat in objective mechanical terms is productive.
The issue is not really whether what it does now is a good utility option, it's that what it does now is not remotely what people want from a 'Synthesis' style effect and they're bound to be disappointed by it for that reason, irrespective of it's quality as such an option.
worthwhile
see useful
i dont see synthesist on that page