| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
RIP wizard's ability to use AOEs on enemies, I guess.The biggest problem for this archetype is that Wizard who used to love this archetype for delivering AoE were kicked out to the curve.
They took away both anti-magic field and the ability to put it on an arrow so it's centered somewhere else. When will this unreasonable oppression of wizards stop?
Thanks, Manbearscientist; you summed up my feelings on the matter better than I could have, I think.
Eldritch Archer is in my top 3 Archetypes in the APG for a martial base.
For caster? I take another spell casting dedication. Or something non combat. No point in trying to do something martial related imo.
I see your point about some of the built in loop holes manbearscientist. But I do think it was a mistake for Eldritch Archer to not have an alternate requirement for casters. To allow them to get it at roughly 9th level like they previously could. Specially considering many wizards were glad to give those fighter dip to get that Prestige Class at 9th without having to wait.
Corvo, the precedent I dont like is that a class that was clearly a Gish and supported both Full Martials and Full Casters about equally became something that heavily favors Martials.
Dragon Disciple was always a Sorcerer Bloodline thing, Magic Warrior was always a minor gish thing. Arcane Archer was always a heavy gish thing, martials became better casters and casters became better martials.
I get not liking an archetype not fitting for a concept. But the word you kinda put emphasis on is "Was". It's not really a fair or correct measurment to compare what it now IS to what it WAS when things worked so much differently.
A pf1 Wizard who dipped into AA without MC would have nearly full spellcasting, and higher "proficiencies/bab" than PF2 wizard who did. It was an entirely different foundation where wizard got not only full casting -1, but also full BAB, so to compare them isn't really fair anymore unless you think it's also wrong that an 2nd ed EA Wizard doesn't have higher weapon proficiency than a basic Wizard while being one level behind in casting.
My gripe with EA isn't the level gating- you can approximate the concept into earlier levels somewhat anyway.
My gripe is that an EA coming from a magical class is almost always going to be better off just using their primary class abilities. Loading a spell into an arrow shot at Expert proficiency is usually going to be inferior to just casting the spell at Mastery or Legendary, and then firing off an arrow separately. Being that the spell is doing most of the work as far as your output for the round goes.
I'm tempted to think that for efficacy a spell casting class is almost better off with Archer than EA.
thus far, all spellcasters are better off not using martial weapons at all and just using spells and cantrips.
closest to ok is a cleric with multiple ways to buff their weapon attack.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Much like the Magaambyan archetypes are proof this edition is clearly favoring casters over martials.
(Certain pieces of material being better for some characters doesn't mean the edition is dedicated to those characters.)
My gripe with EA isn't the level gating- you can approximate the concept into earlier levels somewhat anyway.
My gripe is that an EA coming from a magical class is almost always going to be better off just using their primary class abilities. Loading a spell into an arrow shot at Expert proficiency is usually going to be inferior to just casting the spell at Mastery or Legendary, and then firing off an arrow separately. Being that the spell is doing most of the work as far as your output for the round goes.
I'm tempted to think that for efficacy a spell casting class is almost better off with Archer than EA.
thus far, all spellcasters are better off not using martial weapons at all and just using spells and cantrips.
closest to ok is a cleric with multiple ways to buff their weapon attack.
Clerics dont really have a good spammable damage cantrip. Divine lance is alignment specific damage, and daze is.. well, daze.
I imagine part of the reason for the late caster access is to make it less mandatory. If you could get this from low levels, a lot of casters would "need" to get it for the item bonus to spell attack rolls combined with the longer range. Instead, they get access to it when it's a more balanced option for them. You get a couple levels being far ahead of regular casting, a couple levels being a little ahead or tied, and a couple levels of being a little behind. And, in all those cases, you're benefitting from the extra range.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Clerics dont really have a good spammable damage cantrip. Divine lance is alignment specific damage, and daze is.. well, daze.Chill touch isn't that bad.
It's a two action touch spell on a caster with d8 hp and middling armor.
I tried using it with a cleric. Every encounter it resulted my my death saves. By every encounter. I'm talking 6.
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Clerics dont really have a good spammable damage cantrip. Divine lance is alignment specific damage, and daze is.. well, daze.Chill touch isn't that bad.It's a two action touch spell on a caster with d8 hp and middling armor.
I tried using it with a cleric. Every encounter it resulted my my death saves. By every encounter. I'm talking 6.
Psst you're supposed to cast it on your opponent, not yourself.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Daze the Will Save damage spell that can stun?
Tell me, do you know how often the Will Save of a Bestiary Creature is higher than the AC? It's pretty infrequent (and if it is, it's usually a point or two at most).
Against brute type enemies, the difference is substantial, and it's not a Spell Attack Roll spell so it does half damage on failure (which puts the DPR into not bad range).
People always poop on Daze and I just don't get why. It's consistent enough to be used and the damage/stun can be solid in the right circumstances.
Literally 0 archetypes are exclusives for casters, have 4+ level delay for martials, or otherwise favor casters.
Sentinel's dedication favors casters and Alchemist- it stays valuable for them, while it drops off in value for classes with higher armor/unarmored proficiency.
Halcyon Speaker is very heavily caster-slanted in terms of benefits. It's not a delay, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss it as not favoring them.
Anyway, we are getting a full book about magic. That seems like a good place for the caster-exclusive archetypes.
It's a two action touch spell on a caster with d8 hp and middling armor.
I tried using it with a cleric. Every encounter it resulted my my death saves. By every encounter. I'm talking 6.
To address your second comment first because that one will take me the least words: There are a lot more factors than using chill touch or not involved in you seeing death saves for 6 encounters.
To address your first comment: let's compare some hit point totals! I'll list 4, you tell me which one is the clerics. Easy, right? Here we go:
18, 18, 18, and 16. For a little extra help, here's the same party's Hp totals at level 10 (in the same order, too): 90, 128, 108, 108.
Hopefully that will highlight why "with d8 hp" doesn't actually mean what you're implying it means.
And then "middling armor"... let's look at the AC of our party members at level 1: 16, 18, 17, 18; and at level 10: 27, 28, 29, 28.
Which should help to highlight that there really isn't a "middling armor" category - there's only how much investment you make in your AC.
Just giving me numbers means nothing.
A cleric has 16 AC Wich is a different off 2 from the standard 18 starting ac. Even then you get hit easily.
If you have 18 wisdom and 16 dexterity Wich is advisable if you are going to be targeting saves and are not a war priest. Your going to have 12 con and probably 12 charisma for your font.
With a human that's 17 hp.
At level 10. That's 26 ac and 118 hp. Before any magical equipment or feats and you bumped con/dex/Wis/Cha at 5 and 10.
Meanwhile a str based fighter will start at either 18 ac, or 19 if you allow him heavy armor (granted that had it's own drawbacks). With 20 hp (19 if you gave the same 12 con)
At 10 that's 28 AC and 148hp before any magic or feats.
Maybe that seems not so bad to you. But this game revolves around increments of 2. And a difference if 2 AC is extremely noticeable. A difference of 30hp as well.
The difference between the cleric and a rogue is the rogue has movement options and better ways to avoid getting hit. The cleric has heals, with little to no innate movement options. So a 2 action melee range cantrip is only ever useful if you start your turn next to an enemy and somehow haven't been hit as well.
Daze the Will Save damage spell that can stun?
Tell me, do you know how often the Will Save of a Bestiary Creature is higher than the AC? It's pretty infrequent (and if it is, it's usually a point or two at most).
Against brute type enemies, the difference is substantial, and it's not a Spell Attack Roll spell so it does half damage on failure (which puts the DPR into not bad range).
People always poop on Daze and I just don't get why. It's consistent enough to be used and the damage/stun can be solid in the right circumstances.
So, you do a great job of acting like you see the stun often but.. at low level play at least, it's not frequent at all.
Daze is a basic save that does your spellcasting modifier as damage. Meaning if they fail, they take 3-4 damage. If they succeed they take half. If they critically fail they take 8 and lose an action. For two actions at 60 foot range.
If they succeed at the save even 40% of the time, then 40% of the time you literally spent your turn doing like 1-2 damage and maybe casting shield.
Or are we going to act like the +2 heightened adding a d6 is good too?
To be clear I don't think it's the worst option but.. it's pretty underwhelming and unfun most of the time.
So, you do a great job of acting like you see the stun often but.. at low level play at least, it's not frequent at all.
If you want to measure a cantrip at low levels of play and nowhere else, be my guest, but the fact that you can even stun anyone with a Cantrip at level 1 is already strong.
And it's not incapacitation either.
Daze is a basic save that does your spellcasting modifier as damage. Meaning if they fail, they take 3-4 damage. If they succeed they take half. If they critically fail they take 8 and lose an action. For two actions at 60 foot range.
Yes that is indeed what the spell description says.
If they succeed at the save even 40% of the time, then 40% of the time you literally spent your turn doing like 1-2 damage and maybe casting shield.
And 10% of the time, they lose an action and take 8 damage.
Or are we going to act like the +2 heightened adding a d6 is good too?
To be clear I don't think it's the worst option but.. it's pretty underwhelming and unfun most of the time.
We're going to acknowledge the fact that a Cantrip can target a Will Save and has the potential to Stun any creature since it has no Incapacitation trait.
You wanna talk level 1, let's look at a typical enemy you'd fight then in the Goblin Warrior with a +3 Will Save or the Goblin Dog (a CL equivalent btw) of +5 Will Save.
With a maxed WIS, at level 1 your save is DC 17 base. That means that a Goblin that rolls a 4 or lower (20% chance) is stunned.
A Goblin Dog has a 10% chance to CF that save.
And that's without any buffs to your DC or any penalties (such as Demoralize or Bon Mot) to their Will Save.
Are we really going to downplay the value of Stun?
While Halcyon and Magaambyan aren't technically caster exclusive, I honestly can't imagine ever taking them on a martial. There are so few benefits to martials in there as almost all the good feats are metamagic or rely on casting spells (which the archetypes give you very few of).
Only thing I'm really disappointed about is the implication for Magus. I would really prefer to have seen a Magus subclass along these lines. If we are getting one, then I'm not sure what niche the Archetype has, as the Multiclass archetype would presumably cover the same ground, and at lower level.
One possibility is that, as this archetype has fairly low prerequisites for a Martial character, that casters might have an easier time picking up the Magus Multiclass dedication. If Magi wind up Int based, Wizards and Witches might have a very easy entry into that archetype, and at a much lower level. Depending on how hard it is to pickup the various spell strikes, it might be a level 4 feat for the multiclass where it is a level 6 feat for the archetype. If the multiclass dedication gave a spellstrike ability, then we're back to wtf, since even a martial that disdains skills would be willing to pickup 14 Int for a 4 level earlier access to Eldritch Shot.
It's all guessing at this point. I'd have preferred to see "Trained in bows, able to cast a spell attack cantrip" for this one and at a lower level, old edition reference notwithstanding, but maybe it will make more sense once we get the playtest.
Just giving me numbers means nothing.That's not true. Just giving you numbers illustrated that your implied claim that 8 HP per level and the armor proficiency options available to a cleric doesn't provide good enough defenses to go be on the front lines if you want to was incorrect.
That's why you can't tell me which of the 4 characters I listed stats for is the cleric, because their stats are - in practice - able to keep pace with a front-liner-intended class like a fighter.
By the way, the 4 characters I used to generate the numbers I provided you were a wizard, a cleric, a fighter, and a rogue in that order.
A cleric has 16 ACThey can, sure... but they can also have an 18 to start with if they want to.
And that is why my example cleric, one I built to actually make front-line combat a decent choice for, started with an 18 AC and 18 HP, and at 10th level had actually slipped past the fighter in the party to have the highest HP at 128, and was still on-pace with the fighter's AC at 28 because the extra point the fighter gets is by giving up some movement speed by using heavy armor.
So a 2 action melee range cantrip is only ever useful if you start your turn next to an enemy and somehow haven't been hit as well.My experience differs. a 2 action melee range cantrip is also useful if you start your turn within a Stride from an enemy you want to damage, or if you start your turn next to any enemy and have been hit.
Warpriest has its own issues, you stopped at it's most powerful. Eventually they lag behind I'm every category from HP (it's not my fault your fighter didn't bump constitution or take toughness while you may have), to ac, to to hit, to spell hit and saves.
As for your last bit, that wasn't my experience at all. Running up and casting chill touch meant I was on the floor the next round.
Only thing I'm really disappointed about is the implication for Magus.
Well, we're like 100% going to playtest the Magus sometime next year so I wouldn't worry too much.
Believe what you want. Once martials extend their proficiency beyond expert. Warpriest isn't a front liner anymore and they were tenuous before. Cloistered never was.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We're playtesting it next month.Only thing I'm really disappointed about is the implication for Magus.Well, we're like 100% going to playtest the Magus sometime next year so I wouldn't worry too much.
Covid time dilation. Next month may be 4-5 years from now.
Only thing I'm really disappointed about is the implication for Magus. I would really prefer to have seen a Magus subclass along these lines. If we are getting one, then I'm not sure what niche the Archetype has, as the Multiclass archetype would presumably cover the same ground, and at lower level.
I really expect us to get a Magus class path along similar lines. Multiclass has thus far tended to not give much from the class path. And, unless the Magus multiclass dedication is going to require pre-existing casting, it'll be spending some space on at least a cantrip before it can get to any spell strike stuff. Magus multiclass might be limited to a basic melee spell strike, even if the class itself can do more.
It's all guessing at this point. I'd have preferred to see "Trained in bows, able to cast a spell attack cantrip" for this one and at a lower level, old edition reference notwithstanding, but maybe it will make more sense once we get the playtest.
I'm glad we didn't get that. I'm happy having archer casters as a thing so long as they aren't the thing. SAD Dex caster from level 2 getting better accuracy for nine levels and equal accuracy for another four levels seems like enough to start having forum balance posts all start assuming you're taking the archetype.
It's all guessing at this point. I'd have preferred to see "Trained in bows, able to cast a spell attack cantrip" for this one and at a lower level, old edition reference notwithstanding, but maybe it will make more sense once we get the playtest.I'm glad we didn't get that. I'm happy having archer casters as a thing so long as they aren't the thing. SAD Dex caster from level 2 getting better accuracy for nine levels and equal accuracy for another four levels seems like enough to start having forum balance posts all start assuming you're taking the archetype.Its a 6th level Archetype even if you have trained bow and spellcasting the earliest you can ever get it is 6th level.
SAD dex Caster would not be getting anything from level 2.
Cool.
Covid time dilation. Next month may be 4-5 years from now.We're playtesting it next month.Only thing I'm really disappointed about is the implication for Magus.Well, we're like 100% going to playtest the Magus sometime next year so I wouldn't worry too much.
I'm aware we're playtesting the Magus.
If you were invested enough as a caster to want to rock the Bow and Spells...why not grab the Archer Dedication at level 2 and start grabbing Archer feats in advance to support your eventual Eldritch Archer?
Seems like a logical path and a good one from a story perspective. You're mixing Ranged and Magic early on, so your crazy Eldritch Archer feats just further support the character that you want to do, but you can still do that character from level 2, just having to wait for Eldritch Shot. Which makes sense.
You start off being good at both Bow and Spells. Then eventually you figure out how to combine the two into one. The DM could very well be willing to let you have story moments leading up to that.
The melee character taking Eldritch Archer needs the spellcasting feats more than you do, and there's no feat in the Archetype letting them gain more than one spell slot like the multiclassing archetypes, so you'll be doing significantly better in the magic department (even though they'll be doing fairly well). This isn't like old multiclassing where you'd lose out on spell levels depending upon the class. A Caster Class is a full caster no matter how they Archetype/Multiclass.
Believe what you want. Once martials extend their proficiency beyond expert. Warpriest isn't a front liner anymore and they were tenuous before. Cloistered never was.
Heroism, being on the Divine and Occult spell lists, shores up the gap for Warpriest, and any Expert Proficiency class. Master Proficiency gap also doesn’t start to appear until around level 13; so only during the last quarter of the game a single buff spell can keep them on par.
Heroism, being on the Divine and Occult spell lists, shores up the gap for Warpriest, and any Expert Proficiency class. Master Proficiency gap also doesn’t start to appear until around level 13; so only during the last quarter of the game a single buff spell can keep them on par.Believe what you want. Once martials extend their proficiency beyond expert. Warpriest isn't a front liner anymore and they were tenuous before. Cloistered never was.
Or you could be useful and buff the fighter
Once martials extend their proficiency beyond expert. Warpriest isn't a front liner anymore and they were tenuous before. Cloistered never was....and you don't think it's a little less than useful to treat the whole game like features that come along in the upper 8 levels are in effect the entire time?
Even if you are correct that once Armor Mastery happens it's no longer safe for all the characters that can keep the same AC as front-liners if they want to dos o to be on the front lines, that's less than half of the campaign - and you're treating as being 100% of the campaign.
It just means you cannot maintain your concept all the way through. So the class eventually becomes a trap. Unless you are in with shifting your character concept halfway through.
Either way this post is about Eldritch Archer. If you or anyone wants to discuss warpriest or whatever let's have a seperate thread for it.
Its a 6th level Archetype even if you have trained bow and spellcasting the earliest you can ever get it is 6th level.
SAD dex Caster would not be getting anything from level 2.
Fair point.
Why would you even want EA on a caster? The entire point is letting you cast Attack spells with your regular attack modifier, which will be significantly lower for a caster than just using the spell normally. The class is clearly intended for martial, and that's not a bad thing
Longer range, extra damage, and their attack modifier is actually higher at levels 12-14 and 16-18 thanks to the weapon bonus.