I am running a group of four through Rise of the Runelords. We are halfway through Book Two and everything is at 6th level. One of the PCs in the group, a human hunter with a panther companion (small cat), has made challenging the party in combat very difficult. I have had to start resorting to advanced templates just to keep some tension.
Basically, the PC took Combat Expertise, Outflank, Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunist, Toughness, and Improved Spell Sharing. The animal companion gets ALL of the teamwork feats for FREE in addition to its own Combat Reflexes, Toughness, and Dodge. The animal companion's stats are Str 21, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, and Cha 6. The PC took "Eye for Talent" to boost the companion's Str by +2.
The way things always go down is that the two of them close on a target and the AC makes its attacks. It gets a free trip on its bite (if hasted it apparently gets two bits and therefore two trip attempts), and since they flank from basically any squares against the same target they always get the +4 bonus to flanking (which also applies to the trip attempt I guess). Once the creature is tripped, they then get a +8 (flanking and prone) on all of their subsequent attacks. And when the creature tries to get back up, it provokes from both of them, at that +8 bonus to hit, and when it attacks someone the AC gets Vengeance Strike on it as well (which also gets a free trip attempt?).
I am really struggling with how to handle this combo. I can't just randomly start throwing in oozes, and elementals, and swarms in every encounter or else they will start saying I am purposefully trying to target them. And I can't just give all the enemies potions of fly for the same reason. But with the ludicrous bonuses the AC gets (its only a +9 normally, but the Hunter can cast magic Fang for a +1, hunter aspect on Strength for another +1, flanking for a +4, so the attacks at a +15 minimum, and then something like +19 after the trip) I don't know how to combat things without just hard countering the character.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to handle this situation without just making every enemy some crazy creature type that is immune to flanking or trip? Like I said, I am running Rise of the Runelords, so i can't just change all the encounters. Any help would be awesome. Thanks!
Just add some mook reinforcements after a round or two if nessesary to keep the rest of the players occupied. In a couple of levels your problem will be the full casters.
And use terrain better. Perhaps you can find some inspiration here: Terrain.
I guess my main questions or concerns are as follows:
1. Does the free trip happen any time the AC gets a bite attack? So, within Haste, twice per round, on attacks of opportunity, vengeance strike? Can he just trip a target in the middle of its full attack?
2. Does flanking really apply to trip attempts? Is there any way to boost my guys’ CMD to combat his absurd CMB bonus?
3. Does the AC have no secondary natural attacks (just bite and 2 claws both primary) so does Multiattack do literally nothing for it at all?
4. Does it really take basically no action for the PC to control and direct his AC during combat? He can basically just get two free full turns?
I think all your points are correct.
Hunters usualy dump cha so his handle animal check is properly poor. Until his AC gets higher intelligens he relies on handle animal checks to command his AC.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: I guess my main questions or concerns are as follows:
1. Does the free trip happen any time the AC gets a bite attack? So, within Haste, twice per round, on attacks of opportunity, vengeance strike? Can he just trip a target in the middle of its full attack?
2. Does flanking really apply to trip attempts? Is there any way to boost my guys’ CMD to combat his absurd CMB bonus?
3. Does the AC have no secondary natural attacks (just bite and 2 claws both primary) so does Multiattack do literally nothing for it at all?
4. Does it really take basically no action for the PC to control and direct his AC during combat? He can basically just get two free full turns?
1. Any time the bite attack hits, yes.
2. Combat manuevers are attack rolls, so flanking applies to trip I believe. The advanced template increases CMD by 4.
3. Multiattack does not help the panther unless it gains a secondary natural weapon.
4. Technically, the GM is supposed to control the Animal Companion, but this is rarely enforced. I don't do it. And yes, the whole point of an Animal Companion is getting a whole extra turn.
In regards to the combats not being challenging, I'd rather hear the whole story. Party makeup, level, and whether they're all feeling like they're contributing.
As the GM you have infinite tools to make the game easier or more difficult, I can get into that of needed.
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At this point in the AP trip works really well, I would look at the next module and compare what the AC trip vs the giants CMD.
In regards to party make up there is a Human Fighter 5 / Evangelist of Erastil 1, an Elf Alchemist 6, an Elf Wizard (Exploiter) 6, and the Human Hunter 6.
The Fighter and the Alchemist players have actually told me they actively hold back in combat on their own to keep things more interesting. The Fighter is an archer and he has specifically decided not to take feats like Weapon Specialization, Manyshot, and multiclassed to keep his BAB lower to prevent iterative attacks for another level. The alchemist didn’t purposefully inhibit his build, but he has specifically not used bombs for a while now to keep his damage low. The Wizard player has spent the last few combats casting Haste or Magic Missile or Fireball. Standard wizard stuff for the most part. He likes being the “demigod character” so he doesn’t care if fights have no challenge. And the Hunter is pretty optimized best I can tell, and the biggest problem I and the other two players have is that the character just sort of lacks “character” of you know what I mean. He’s basically just a stat block for killing monsters.
It’s those two players that I want to be able to challenge, but I don’t want to just scale everything to be uber powerful and end up causing a TPK since they have taken measures to not optimize themselves.
*Khan* wrote: I think all your points are correct.
Hunters usualy dump cha so his handle animal check is properly poor. Until his AC gets higher intelligens he relies on handle animal checks to command his AC.
The DC is only 10, and the Hunter gets +4 to checks with its own companion. So even if its Charisma is only 6, they only need four ranks before it is impossible to fail to command an unwounded companion.
Interestingly, the DC goes up by two if the companion takes damage (something I had previously either not noticed or forgotten), but as long as our Hunter has six ranks (which at level six they probably do) they still cannot fail.
And comanding an animal companion is a swift EDIT: free action, which is more of a cost for a Hunter than a Druid, but still allows both to full attack.
EDIT: To the OP, add me to those saying "don't worry about it". Tripping scale notoriously poorly.
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glass.
glass wrote: And comanding an animal companion is a swift action, which is more of a cost for a Hunter than a Druid, but still allows both to full attack. I thought it was a free action? Is it different for a Hunter?
Trip builds are very powerful at low to mid levels. The giants encountered at mid levels have very good CMD (and very bad AC). I still think the trip combo will work...if the cat isn't killed trying to close to melee distance.
Once the party gets to the point where most of the enemies have a 10' or greater reach the cat gives a free attack or lets the giant set itself up to get a free round of attacks.
My general go to as a GM would be to have enemies target the ranger until the cat start tripping things. After 1 trip attempt, target the cat. After all, the cat is the one doing trip attempts. Also the cat's AC will not improve like a PCs would. Animals are easy to hit, and giants AC might be low, but their chance to hit is high, and so it their damage.
Also don't forget to apply the bonuses and penalties to combat maneuvers for size. It is a small shift, but every point counts.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: glass wrote: And comanding an animal companion is a swift action, which is more of a cost for a Hunter than a Druid, but still allows both to full attack. I thought it was a free action? Is it different for a Hunter? No, you're right it is a free action. Not sure why I thought it was swift.
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glass.
It is possible to keep trip scaling well enough to trip giants if the hunter's working at it, including getting around the 'no more than one size category larger' limit. Giants are still dangerous on the ground tho' and also they're likely to get AoOs as the hunter & pet approach. Possibly a trip attempt as the AoO if you swap out a feat or two...
I'll disagree with the others here. This isn't a self-solving problem given that you have a nerfed fighter (!) in the party. Either you rebuild the enemies to be resistant to the hunter in particular (which is a lot of work) or you try to get them to lighten up on the optimisation. Doing nothing will make the low-op characters feel left out.
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avr wrote: It is possible to keep trip scaling well enough to trip giants if the hunter's working at it, including getting around the 'no more than one size category larger' limit. Giants are still dangerous on the ground tho' and also they're likely to get AoOs as the hunter & pet approach. Possibly a trip attempt as the AoO if you swap out a feat or two...
I'll disagree with the others here. This isn't a self-solving problem given that you have a nerfed fighter (!) in the party. Either you rebuild the enemies to be resistant to the hunter in particular (which is a lot of work) or you try to get them to lighten up on the optimisation. Doing nothing will make the low-op characters feel left out.
Still I think you should let the player shine and just add more mooks for the others. Perhaps the archer and the alchemist won't hold back and then.
Still if you want to challenge your party then clever tactics are better than tougher monsters. Terrain are a great way to make combat more interessting and challenging. Or give the party some extra responsibilities like protect innocents in the middle of the battlefield.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: I have had to start resorting to advanced templates just to keep some tension. That's a common thing actually. The AP assumes mediocre player capabilities and the Core Rulebook, not veterans with many rulebooks and guides to their disposal.
Personally, I'd rather go for more hitpoints, like +50% or +100%. So they don't lose the fun from hitting a lot or from dealing a lot of damage, still their foes have more opportunity to fight back.
Of course, this has limits when players bypass hitpoints and deny foes their actions, with conditions like paralyzed, stunned, dazed, petrified etc.. I'd apply the hold person rule here: Every creature taken out by such a serious condition can save again each round, as a full-round action. That also saves players from just watching combat after a single bad save roll. But this is a houserule with quite some impact, so communicate it early and clearly. Especially to the "God wizard".
Enemies with ranged attacks.
If the Alchemist and Fighter sit at the back nerfing themselves you can hit them hard.
Numbers/mooks.
One of the big weaknesses of many PF adventure paths is an over reliance on one or 2 big monsters. They either go down really fast because of a weakness against a certain approach, Action economy, or wipe the floor with the party because the party can't get past a certain ability/feature.
Numbers over quality helps.
Flyers.
And quite simply there's nothing wrong with templates.
Extra hit points for enemies can be useful IF this means they get to do something effective before the fight is over.
If it just means they taqke longer to kill then no.
Have magical buffs running on the enemies. Just insert behind the scenes NPC that is buffing the enemies and leaving without getting involved in the fight.
From memory of rise of the RuneLords there are enough fingers in the pie that you can insert a shodowy interloper taht is helping some of the enemies but not getting involved persoanlly against the party.
At some point well in the furture you can reveal them from the shadows if you like (either for or against the players)
A 12th level Bard/Shaman/Mystic Theurge with lingering Song and a lesser Metamagis Rod of Quickening and the claok that allows you to diemension door would do the job.
Level him up 2 level for every 3 the party gets to keep him relevant.
But don't take just one approach. Chop and change.
Also drop some melee mooks in behind the party, back where the Fighter and Alchemist are sitting.
That will keep them on their toes without overwhelming the Hunter+AC and other frontline PCs.
Secret/concealed doors/guard rooms.
Someone Diemension Dooring them in but not hanging around
False ceiling dropping them in.
Again, not every fight but enough to keep them on their toes
Also try using Nets occasionally.
You'll have to learn the Net rules, but that can seriously cramp the style of the Hunter/AC and force the back liners to get involved.
But self nerfing by the PCs is something that can bite the party in the arse later because every now and then PF adventure paths can spike the power level in a way that shuts down certain combat strategies and if some of the players have been self nerfing themselves the party can find itself seriously lacking in alternate plans.
add some Barbarian or Rogue levels to negate the flank occasionally? Use more range combatants, target the kitty more, add extra hit points, add more fodder opponents for them to go to town on, pre-game the buffs, use blur, displacement or blink, and finally, but also the most fun, use their own tactic against them!
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I really wish the advanced template didn't exist. So many inexperienced GMs use it as an attempt to "balance" their games, when it is one of the poorest balanced ways you can increase a creature's CR. The problem is the advanced template is so easy, it takes no prep work, while properly increasing a creature's cr by adding hit dice takes a not insignificant amount of time.
I generally recommend adding more creatures rather then increasing creatures' stats. By increasing npc stats, you are engaging in an arms race. The "problem" in your mind is that one player's numbers are too high, so you boost your own numbers. All you did was justify that players high numbers and now he will be looking for ways to make them even higher, because obviously he needs to in order to succeed. You also end up punishing any of your players who don't join the optimization arms race, who now can't hit or land spells because npc AC and saves are too high.
Adding more enemies is a better way to increase the challenge. Especially in an instance like this where your "problem" player has a single target build. By adding more enemies the rest of your players have targets that will be engaging them.
Thinking "how can I combat or cancel this player" is the worst thing you can do as a GM. Therein lies the path to resentment, anger, and the breaking up of groups. Instead try to think of how you can make things fun for everyone (and yes you, the GM, are part of everyone).
You could also reduce or change the treasure items they find so it benefits more the other classes in the game. Instead of a cape of resistance +3 you could give them a wand of fireball (12 charge) or a frost arrow. Or some scroll for the mage
I concur that the best idea is to have melee mooks emerge to engage your back-row PCs from behind. Make them feel challenged, having to hold off the baddies until the hunter comes back to save the day by doing what he does best.
If your tripmaster's reputation precedes him (via a surviving mook, spy, or shadowy buffer), it is perfectly fair for forewarned foes to adjust their tactics accordingly. Casters can summon swarms, untrippable snakes or flyers, trip-resistant arthropods, or elementals. Fire elemental = have a mouthful of flame, kitty! Maybe a buffer/summoner knows to buy a Hide from Animals potion.
I suppose you could tailor adversaries, such as a channeler with the Command Animal feat or a Venom-Drenched halfling, but that feels like cheating. Given a day, enemies can have the right spells ready, though. Which are good defenses versus natural attacks? Can they find dead snakes to animate? Can a blight or swarmmonger druid bring one with Call Animal?
Difficult terrain can cut Kitty's mobility. Or fight from an unflankable position (pillar top or corner).
How is the hunter issuing orders? Can you block verbal and/or visual communication with silence or fog?
Maybe a half-dozen first-level witches are using ill-omens wands from cover or concealment? Or rangers with Calm Animal wands?
Alchemical grease is a cheap, long-lasting aid against grapples. Is there an equivalent against trips?
our group has banned any class which has a companion that gives extra actions. The disruption in action economy really breaks the game, especially with experienced players. my advice is to discuss things with the player and ask him to tone things down. combine that with more henchmen for the party to fight.
At a certain point, the animal companion won't hit as often, so you have that going for you, but until then they will dominate the game.
Stephen Ede wrote: Also drop some melee mooks in behind the party, back where the Fighter and Alchemist are sitting.
That will keep them on their toes without overwhelming the Hunter+AC and other frontline PCs.
.......
Also try using Nets occasionally.
You'll have to learn the Net rules, but that can seriously cramp the style of the Hunter/AC and force the back liners to get involved.
You could do both. Perhaps the commotion of battle attracts the local trip-resistant arachnoid predators at an awkward moment. A giant black widow(CR 3, webs DC 19) and her mate(CR 1) show up, shooting webs(nets). Or a giant scorpion(CR 3) arrives carrying her brood (treat as 6 green-sting/ghost scorpions aiding another or a scorpion swarm). Maybe Mama grabs the wizard and tries to carry him off (25' per round)? Cave scorpions' stealth is good enough(+12) that they could already be hiding in the cavern.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: One of the PCs in the group, a human hunter with a panther companion (small cat), has made challenging the party in combat very difficult. I have had to start resorting to advanced templates just to keep some tension. Your response seems legit.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: Basically, the PC took Combat Expertise, Outflank, Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunist, Toughness, and Improved Spell Sharing. The animal companion gets ALL of the teamwork feats for FREE in addition to its own Combat Reflexes, Toughness, and Dodge. The animal companion's stats are Str 21, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, and Cha 6. The PC took "Eye for Talent" to boost the companion's Str by +2. Cool.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: It gets a free trip on its bite (if hasted it apparently gets two bits and therefore two trip attempts), Vengeance Strike... (which also gets a free trip attempt?). How does it get a Free Trip with its Bite Attack and with Vengeance Strike? I thought Tripping was done in place of a melee attack, not free on top of one. Is there a special ability or Feat I'm missing?
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: they always get the +4 bonus to flanking (which also applies to the trip attempt I guess). Once the creature is tripped, they then get a +8 (flanking and prone) on all of their subsequent attacks. Sweet.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: And when the creature tries to get back up, it provokes from both of them, at that +8 bonus to hit, Yup.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: and when it attacks someone the AC gets Vengeance Strike on it as well Isn't it the Ranger that gets the Attack when the AC is attacked?
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: I am really struggling with how to handle this combo. I can't just randomly start throwing in oozes, and elementals, and swarms in every encounter or else they will start saying I am purposefully trying to target them. Sure you can. GMs do that to me all the time. Another thing you can do is target the Animal Companion directly. Animal Companions have terrible Will Saves. In addition to sending unTrippable monsters after the party, you should have evil wizard (or witches, or druids, or whatever) charm/dominate/possess the Animal Companion and force the PC to kill his own pet. Make him cry like Old Yeller. Seriously, that's what Animal Companions are for: to give the GM something to kill when he doesn't want to kill you.
I wrote: Jay (my DM), you keep killing my animals Jay wrote: Scott, why do you think I keep giving them to you? This is why I never make character builds around Animal Companions.
I once saw a local GM force the party Druid kill his own Animal Companion 5 times in as many sessions, and when he was about to stat up a 6th, I exclaimed, "For God's sake! Let him just take a Domain!"
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: And I can't just give all the enemies potions of fly for the same reason. Not all the time, but some of the time. Another thing you can is sic a creature on them that is 2 Sizes bigger then they are, and they can't Trip them (until they figure out the workaround and take the Feat).
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: The Fighter and the Alchemist players have actually told me they actively hold back in combat on their own to keep things more interesting.... It’s those two players that I want to be able to challenge, but I don’t want to just scale everything to be uber powerful and end up causing a TPK since they have taken measures to not optimize themselves. It sounds like the whole party can handle it if you ramp up the challenge. Actually, it sounds to me like they are daring you to. Tell them to stop self-nerfing, because your wrapping your bat in barbed wire now...
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: I and the other two players have is that the character just sort of lacks “character” of you know what I mean. He’s basically just a stat block for killing monsters. So, that's a completely other challenge, and it's handled completely differently. Look for opportunities to make him roleplay. Next time the party is in a tavern, take his drink order. Have someone tell him a joke, and ask the Player if the Character think's it's funny. Ask him if his character has an accent. Challenge your Player to say things they way the character would say it, if not with that accent, then with the choice of words. Ask party members if they leave a good tip, and shame them if they don't. If they come back to the same bar again,
The Innkeeper wrote: Welcome back, you cheap bastards! There is a Hackmaster game mechanic that might help you here. It's called Honor. A character gets and loses Honor Points according to whether he acts true to his character and true to his alignment, whatever that may be. A character in High or Low honor gets significant modifications to all their die rolls.
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: It gets a free trip on its bite (if hasted it apparently gets two bits and therefore two trip attempts), Vengeance Strike... (which also gets a free trip attempt?). "How does it get a Free Trip with its Bite Attack and with Vengeance Strike? I thought Tripping was done in place of a melee attack, not free on top of one. Is there a special ability or Feat I'm missing?"
Yes. In general, a combat maneuver is done in place of a melee attack. I don't know enough about Vengeance Strike and hunters to know whether ACs can use that trick for themselves. But, a number of Medium-sized members of Order Carnivora (e.g. wolves, hyenas, and small great cats like this one) get a free trip attempt with each bite attack, and without provoking AoOs. Some other critters (e.g. lions) get free grapple attempts with the grab ability. When applicable, such an extraordinary ability is listed under "damage" in the critter's stats. This is one reason why Wild-shaping is so potent.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Golarion Wizard Express wrote: It gets a free trip on its bite (if hasted it apparently gets two bits and therefore two trip attempts), Vengeance Strike... (which also gets a free trip attempt?). How does it get a Free Trip with its Bite Attack and with Vengeance Strike? I thought Tripping was done in place of a melee attack, not free on top of one. Is there a special ability or Feat I'm missing?
Maybe you should read up on the Universal Monster Rules?
Universal Monster Rules wrote: Trip (Ex)
A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return.
Format: trip (bite); Location: individual attacks.
Animal Companions follow the monster rules since they aren't PCs.
avr wrote: I'll disagree with the others here. This isn't a self-solving problem given that you have a nerfed fighter (!) in the party. Either you rebuild the enemies to be resistant to the hunter in particular (which is a lot of work) or you try to get them to lighten up on the optimisation. Doing nothing will make the low-op characters feel left out. Well, the Hunter over-shadowing the Wizard and possibly the Alchemist will fix itself. All three of them over-shadowing the Fighter will not, but that is more a problem with the Fighter than the Hunter.
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glass.
I'm not going to rebuild any encounters or dramatically change the campaign if there's a super-OP PC. One of the perks of an adventure path is that some of the hard work has already been done so that I don't have to build or alter every encounter.
Instead, I try to just sit down with the player and have an honest conversation about what's going on, and why his character is becoming a problem for everyone's ability to have fun. I might recommend the player choose less-optimal (and more fun, flavourful) tactics during encounters, take less optimal class options and feats moving forward, or even retire the character (they've been recruited by legendary heroes for mythic-level battles on other planes!) and introduce one that's a better fit for the challenge level of the campaign.
Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Maybe you should read up on the Universal Monster Rules?
Universal Monster Rules wrote: Trip (Ex)
A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return.
Format: trip (bite); Location: individual attacks.
Animal Companions follow the monster rules since they aren't PCs.
So, for starters, thank you for this citation. This was exactly the sort of thing I was asking for.
I was aware of the existence of a monster ability to Trip with an attack, but I did not recall that that ability was in the Universal Monster Rules.
So now I know the name of this ability and see the description of it, I still don't know how the OPGM'sPC acquired this ability.
OP wrote: panther companion (small cat) Reviewing Felines in the Bestiary, I see a lot of Grab, Pounce and Rake, but I don't see the Trip Ability.
Actually, I didn't see Panther, either. But in the real world, I'm pretty sure that a panther is just a genetic variant of jaguars or leopards: all black instead of spotted. So I looked up Common Cat, Jaguar, Leopard, and Snow Leopard. And they are cool: Grab, Pounce, and Rake, but no Trip. Grab grants you the ability to Initiate a Grapple as a Free Action as part of an Attack. Again, cool, but Grappling is not Tripping.
I think I might be missing something, but I'm still not sure. Can Hunter Animal Companions take Monster Abilities as if they were Feats? I don't see Trip on the list of Animal Companion Feats.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Reviewing Felines in the Bestiary, I see a lot of Grab, Pounce and Rake, but I don't see the Trip Ability. Why are you looking in the Bestiary when the CRB animal companion entry shows you that small cats have trip?
Animal Companions don't use bestiary stat blocks anyway.
Cellion wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Reviewing Felines in the Bestiary, I see a lot of Grab, Pounce and Rake, but I don't see the Trip Ability. Why are you looking in the Bestiary when the CRB animal companion entry shows you that small cats have trip? Because I didn't know about that. Thanks.
Cellion wrote: Animal Companions don't use bestiary stat blocks anyway. Actually, though, following your link, I find that it actually does link to the bestiary stat block. So while Animal Companions have their own rules, it seems they do use the Bestiary stat blocks at least a little bit.
And again, what I see is that big (and I guess Small) Cats get Grab, Rake, and Pounce, but not Trip.
So thank you for the link, but I don't see the Trip Monster Ability for the Animal Companion Stat Block, either. How does the OP's PC' AC get the Trip Monster Ability?
Am I looking in the wrong place? The animal companion stat block for "small cat (cheetah, leopard)" seems to have Trip? (emphasis mine)
Animal Companion: Cat, Small (Cheetah, leopard) wrote: Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 54
Companion Type Animal
Monster Entry Link
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 50 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4 plus trip), 2 claws (1d2); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th-Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6 plus trip), 2 claws (1d3); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2; Special Qualities sprint.
While the leopard's Bestiary stat block does not have it, curiously the cheetah's Bestiary stat block does have it.
Since the companion gets Sprint at 4th level, which Bestiary leopards also don't have, might the companion stats be based entirely off the cheetah even though they're supposed to cover other similar felines (like leopards/panthers) too?
Ilthurin wrote: Am I looking in the wrong place? The animal companion stat block for "small cat (cheetah, leopard)" seems to have Trip? (emphasis mine)
Animal Companion: Cat, Small (Cheetah, leopard) wrote: Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 54
Companion Type Animal
Monster Entry Link
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 50 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4 plus trip), 2 claws (1d2); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th-Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6 plus trip), 2 claws (1d3); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2; Special Qualities sprint.
While the leopard's Bestiary stat block does not have it, curiously the cheetah's Bestiary stat block does have it.
Since the companion gets Sprint at 4th level, which Bestiary leopards also don't have, might the companion stats be based entirely off the cheetah even though they're supposed to cover other similar felines (like leopards/panthers) too?
Okay, I see it now.
Still, the can't Trip anything Size Large or larger. Its ability seems quite conditional.
Tell the other PCS quit holding back. Make everything much harder. Maybe let the fighter we build his character if he feels that things are too hard on them.
Also Dragons. If they aren't the answer to the question it was probably a stupid thing to ask.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Still, the can't Trip anything Size Large or larger. Its ability seems quite conditional. At level 10 the hunter gets animal growth At 4th level the cat became medium which allows it to trip size large. Once the player hits 10 it can use animal growth to trip size huge. At any point the player wants the animal companion can take the hefty brute animal companion feat to count as large always, animal growth to huge, and trip up to gargantuan...which is about the limit of what can reasonably be tripped. Its not too hard to get the cat companion access to improved/greater trip, the hunter can share Tandem Trip with class features, and use Tangled Limbs to negate multiple leg cmd bonuses.
Outside of flight, colossal creatures, and things that just cant outright be tripped, if you want to focus on trip, you CAN trip almost anything. Truthfully, if the player REALLY wanted to optimize he'd be using a stegasaurus with vital strike for this, because its large, animal growths to huge, strong jaws to colossal, and imp vital strikes for 18d8 + trip at high level.
Ryan Freire wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Still, the can't Trip anything Size Large or larger. Its ability seems quite conditional. At level 10 the hunter gets animal growth At 4th level the cat became medium which allows it to trip size large. Once the player hits 10 it can use animal growth to trip size huge. At any point the player wants the animal companion can take the hefty brute animal companion feat to count as large always, animal growth to huge, and trip up to gargantuan...which is about the limit of what can reasonably be tripped. Its not too hard to get the cat companion access to improved/greater trip, the hunter can share Tandem Trip with class features, and use Tangled Limbs to negate multiple leg cmd bonuses.
Outside of flight, colossal creatures, and things that just cant outright be tripped, if you want to focus on trip, you CAN trip almost anything. Truthfully, if the player REALLY wanted to optimize he'd be using a stegasaurus with vital strike for this, because its large, animal growths to huge, strong jaws to colossal, and imp vital strikes for 18d8 + trip at high level. The OP said it was still Small, which is why I said Large, but fine, Huge. My point is, this problem PC's Tripping ability is still pretty situational.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Ryan Freire wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Still, the can't Trip anything Size Large or larger. Its ability seems quite conditional. At level 10 the hunter gets animal growth At 4th level the cat became medium which allows it to trip size large. Once the player hits 10 it can use animal growth to trip size huge. At any point the player wants the animal companion can take the hefty brute animal companion feat to count as large always, animal growth to huge, and trip up to gargantuan...which is about the limit of what can reasonably be tripped. Its not too hard to get the cat companion access to improved/greater trip, the hunter can share Tandem Trip with class features, and use Tangled Limbs to negate multiple leg cmd bonuses.
Outside of flight, colossal creatures, and things that just cant outright be tripped, if you want to focus on trip, you CAN trip almost anything. Truthfully, if the player REALLY wanted to optimize he'd be using a stegasaurus with vital strike for this, because its large, animal growths to huge, strong jaws to colossal, and imp vital strikes for 18d8 + trip at high level. The OP said it was still Small, which is why I said Large, but fine, Huge. My point is, this problem PC's Tripping ability is still pretty situational. They didn't say it was still small, they referenced the companion template (small cat) but completely understandable confusion. But what i did there was lay out exactly how that problem doesn't just go away as the campaign goes on. If a hunter wants to continue focusing on tripping...they're gonna trip anything that can be, and a few things that you didn't think possible.
Ryan Freire wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Ryan Freire wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Still, the can't Trip anything Size Large or larger. Its ability seems quite conditional. At level 10 the hunter gets animal growth At 4th level the cat became medium which allows it to trip size large. Once the player hits 10 it can use animal growth to trip size huge. At any point the player wants the animal companion can take the hefty brute animal companion feat to count as large always, animal growth to huge, and trip up to gargantuan...which is about the limit of what can reasonably be tripped. Its not too hard to get the cat companion access to improved/greater trip, the hunter can share Tandem Trip with class features, and use Tangled Limbs to negate multiple leg cmd bonuses.
Outside of flight, colossal creatures, and things that just cant outright be tripped, if you want to focus on trip, you CAN trip almost anything. Truthfully, if the player REALLY wanted to optimize he'd be using a stegasaurus with vital strike for this, because its large, animal growths to huge, strong jaws to colossal, and imp vital strikes for 18d8 + trip at high level. The OP said it was still Small, which is why I said Large, but fine, Huge. My point is, this problem PC's Tripping ability is still pretty situational. They didn't say it was still small, they referenced the companion template (small cat) but completely understandable confusion. But what i did there was lay out exactly how that problem doesn't just go away as the campaign goes on. If a hunter wants to continue focusing on tripping...they're gonna trip anything that can be, and a few things that you didn't think possible. Fair to say. There are immediate ways to challenge the OP's PC, and there concerns down the road.
Ryan Freire wrote:
They didn't say it was still small, they referenced the companion template (small cat) but completely understandable confusion. But what i did there was lay out exactly how that problem doesn't just go away as the campaign goes on. If a hunter wants to continue focusing on tripping...they're gonna trip anything that can be, and a few things that you didn't think possible.
If OP really hates the tripping thing (and honestly, it would grate on my nerves over the course of an entire AP), Lamia Monarchs are introduced as a reoccurring enemy starting around 8th level. The GM could freely up the number of them encountered in the AP (especially in the write your own adventure section of the end-game). Since they don't have legs I don't think you should be able to trip them. Just remove a few giants and replace them with an equal number of Lamia Monarchs with enough character levels to make up the difference.
The other Lamia variants are also trip resistant.
As for the boss encounters, every one of them spy on the party so they should know about trip-o-matic ahead of time. Have them all be under the effect of a fly spell. You can't trip someone 5' in the air. Most of the bosses are casters too. Or include a few fly potions in the treasure.
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