Ah, so the reintroduced ancestries are all Uncommon... :(
Where is this?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, so the reintroduced ancestries are all Uncommon... :(
I'm honestly kind of surprised that Changelings aren't rare.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm guessing that "OP" refers to "Organized Play" but I still have no idea exactly where someone is supposed to look.
Kind of a bummer that everything is uncommon again.
|
Yeah, I'm just getting a blank page.
Edit: For anyone who is having the same problem, you can right click, copy link address, open a new page, and paste.
Right clicking and then selecting 'Open New Page' also works fine for me. Just clicking it does go to a blank page, however.
Kind of a bummer that everything is uncommon again.
Probably only Ancestries (and Heritages). Unless Archetypes are all intended to be disallowed except Vigilante, I'd imagine that they are probably mostly gonna be Common.
I figure pretty much all ancestries (that aren't in the core book) are going to be at least uncommon (some will be rare). If an ancestry were common, you could find that sort of person pretty much everywhere reasonably populated. This is true of humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, etc. but how many other ancestries are this way in the setting?
|
I'm guessing that "OP" refers to "Organized Play" but I still have no idea exactly where someone is supposed to look.The text is a link, click on it to go to the page.
It's a link that for some reason has a paragraph tag in its url. Here it is fixed
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am super amused that kobolds of all things are now standard characters even in society play.They may regret that as dragons are pretty OP.
I think people are bummed about the rarity tags for society play, because they will have to unlock the ancestries in play, and thus have to wait on some options, but I am willing to bet that we'll be getting scenarios that open things up pretty quickly.
Outside of organized play, how often are people experiencing, "I really want to play this character, but my GM said no, because it uses uncommon options, and not no, because it really does not fit the theme of this campaign at all?
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Outside of organized play, how often are people experiencing, "I really want to play this character, but my GM said no, because it uses uncommon options, and not no, because it really does not fit the theme of this campaign at all?
In my Plaguestone campaign, I restricted lizardfolk and hobgoblins because they don't make sense in a campaign set in a backwater town in Isger. I allowed leshies, though.
It helps that in 2E rarity is less about power (like a 1E Drow Noble or Azlanti) and more about campaign theme.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think people are bummed about the rarity tags for society play, because they will have to unlock the ancestries in play, and thus have to wait on some options, but I am willing to bet that we'll be getting scenarios that open things up pretty quickly.
Outside of organized play, how often are people experiencing, "I really want to play this character, but my GM said no, because it uses uncommon options, and not no, because it really does not fit the theme of this campaign at all?
Outside of society play the uncommon ancestry tag is basically just have a conversation with your GM. Maybe they want a very specific kind of theme for the campaign where a bird guy is not really appropriate. Inside society play its just the standard get the boon to play the thing nothing that crazy just prove you know how to play standard stuff to unlock some non standard stuff.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Outside of society play the uncommon ancestry tag is basically just have a conversation with your GM. Maybe they want a very specific kind of theme for the campaign where a bird guy is not really appropriate. Inside society play its just the standard get the boon to play the thing nothing that crazy just prove you know how to play standard stuff to unlock some non standard stuff.
Another note for non-society play is that uncommon can help signify how/if NPCs are likely to react to a character based on their ancestry. I've always imagined that noticeable Tieflings would experience a lot more discrimination/unfriendliness than I've ever experienced in games, and even a small tag that encourages GM discussion would probably help set a baseline expectation for the setting. Otherwise, you can run into the complaint I've seen sometimes in forums of "how dare my exotic character be treated differently than the rest of the party, obviously the badwrongfun GM is picking on me."
Outside of organized play, how often are people experiencing, "I really want to play this character, but my GM said no, because it uses uncommon options, and not no, because it really does not fit the theme of this campaign at all?
In my Plaguestone campaign, I restricted lizardfolk and hobgoblins because they don't make sense in a campaign set in a backwater town in Isger. I allowed leshies, though.
It helps that in 2E rarity is less about power (like a 1E Drow Noble or Azlanti) and more about campaign theme.
If it helps, Shoonies, a rare ancestry, was in line powerwise with the core ancestries, while the uncommon LOCG were slightly more powerful, but not hugely, and in fact perfectly in line with what developers said is the actual baseline (core being slightly less powerful, except for Elves and arguably humans).
It's a bit early to make conclusions, but rarity for ancestries seems to just be about rarity rather than power.
Outside of organized play, how often are people experiencing, "I really want to play this character, but my GM said no, because it uses uncommon options, and not no, because it really does not fit the theme of this campaign at all?
In my Plaguestone campaign, I restricted lizardfolk and hobgoblins because they don't make sense in a campaign set in a backwater town in Isger. I allowed leshies, though.
It helps that in 2E rarity is less about power (like a 1E Drow Noble or Azlanti) and more about campaign theme.
If it helps, Shoonies, a rare ancestry, was in line powerwise with the core ancestries, while the uncommon LOCG were slightly more powerful, but not hugely, and in fact perfectly in line with what developers said is the actual baseline (core being slightly less powerful, except for Elves and arguably humans).
It's a bit early to make conclusions, but rarity for ancestries seems to just be about rarity rather than power.
Yeah it's basically just an "ask your GM if you can play this first" situation.
From a long-term balance perspective, I think that makes sense. If someone has a cool idea for a character concept most GMs are probably going to allow that.
It's also really easy to just say "Uncommon Ancestries are allowed" at the beginning of the game if GMs want to allow them, which gives consistency.
I hope power levels are on point, some of the Aasimar/Tiefling variants were considerably stronger than the bases were.
I mean, in PF1 there were huge, huge number of races. How many of those could you play in PFS without a boon?
With the APG we'll be up to: Humans (including 1/2 humans), Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, Goblins, and Kobolds. That seems like a pretty solid set for 2 years in.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, in PF1 there were huge, huge number of races. How many of those could you play in PFS without a boon?
With the APG we'll be up to: Humans (including 1/2 humans), Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, Goblins, and Kobolds. That seems like a pretty solid set for 2 years in.
*1 year in, and now GM can choose whatever ancestry they prefer AND players get ancestry boons by playing.
It's an all-around improvement.
Organized Play Developer
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd just like to hop in and note that rarity isn't related to power level. A level 5 uncommon item (or feat, or spell, etc) is held to the same guidelines as the other level 5 options in its category.
BUT, sometimes a thing can have pretty big thematic implications if everyone in a given world has access to it. Think about what the widespread knowledge of raise dead would have on society. If your GM wants to tell a grand quest to find a magical topaz that, once a millennium, can bring someone back from the other side, that might not be the best adventure for a cleric to automatically get raise dead when they hit a certain level. But in a different campaign type, it could be totally fine!
It's a little flag to let you know you should have that convo with the GM to make sure expectations are aligned, not to say that it's a stronger option.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It also can be a more difficult to adjudicate option, even if that doesn't mean stronger. Think of things like the vigilante's multiple identities. That can get complicated. It's not super powerful, but it's not easy to run either. Common options also tend to be ones that don't require that level of adjudication.
And sometimes it's just "This is like really rare. There's like not that many of them worldwide and almost all live in this one really specific quest location."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It also can be a more difficult to adjudicate option, even if that doesn't mean stronger. Think of things like the vigilante's multiple identities. That can get complicated.
I feel this but didn't know I felt this until you said it!
A person is playing a base ancestry, I pretty much react relatively innocuously to their presence as a GM.
But playing a non-standard Ancestry you probably shouldn't treat their interactions identically to everyone else by their nature (which is sorta the point of them picking it in the first place, they're different).
That does put a burden on the GM to create these dynamic reactions when someone is outside the norm (if they want to play to the lore that is) so it makes sense that a GM might just not want to deal with all the minutia that comes with dealing with a non-standard Ancestry in a game.
| 18 people marked this as a favorite. |
*1 year in
I forgot to account for the time dilation effect of 2020 feeling like it's already been going for 60 years.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
It also can be a more difficult to adjudicate option, even if that doesn't mean stronger. Think of things like the vigilante's multiple identities. That can get complicated.I feel this but didn't know I felt this until you said it!
A person is playing a base ancestry, I pretty much react relatively innocuously to their presence as a GM.
But playing a non-standard Ancestry you probably shouldn't treat their interactions identically to everyone else by their nature (which is sorta the point of them picking it in the first place, they're different).
That does put a burden on the GM to create these dynamic reactions when someone is outside the norm (if they want to play to the lore that is) so it makes sense that a GM might just not want to deal with all the minutia that comes with dealing with a non-standard Ancestry in a game.
That's right. It's also an additional reason (other than the story reason) why if you have a home campaign where humans are almost extinct and there's tons of sprites as the main ancestry, and all arcane magic is gone except a tiny number of humans descended from the completely-extinct dragons, you should consider tweaking the rarities in that campaign too as the reactions of the setting's assumptions will play out differently.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, in PF1 there were huge, huge number of races. How many of those could you play in PFS without a boon?
With the APG we'll be up to: Humans (including 1/2 humans), Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, Goblins, and Kobolds. That seems like a pretty solid set for 2 years in.
At the end of PF1 we had - ifrit, kitsune, nagaji, oread, sylph, tengu, undine, and wayang in addition to core races.
Now we don't have access to:: Leshy, Hobgoblins, Shoney, Hobgoblins, catfolk, orc, ratfolk, and tengu ancestries and the aasimar, changeling, dhampir, duskwalker, and tiefling versatile heritages.
PF2e has fewer choices than we left 1st ed with and has more denied than available. I can't see this a solid.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't the Boon for Uncommon Ancestries pretty affordable in PF2?
As in, play a single character of a Common Ancestry for 20 sessions (or GM 10 sessions) and you probably have enough Achievement Points for it? And you could just keep doing that with every other character from then on, effectively only ever playing a single Common Ancestry and then going infinite?
That...really doesn't seem particularly onerous, as requirements go. That's 'you can't do this on your first character unless you GM a lot', not a major restriction in the long term.
I always got the impression it was a lot harder to get weird races in PF1 PFS than that.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
... the Elemental Scions, Nagaji, and Wayangs haven’t been introduced back into P2 at all yet.
Yeah, and that isn't the decision of the Organized Play Team.
Isn't the Boon for Uncommon Ancestries pretty affordable in PF2?
As in, play a single character of a Common Ancestry for 20 sessions (or GM 10 sessions) and you probably have enough Achievement Points for it? And you could just keep doing that with every other character from then on, effectively only ever playing a single Common Ancestry and then going infinite?
That...really doesn't seem particularly onerous, as requirements go. That's 'you can't do this on your first character unless you GM a lot', not a major restriction in the long term.
I always got the impression it was a lot harder to get weird races in PF1 PFS than that.
Yes, PFS 1E was very restrictive when it came to races. I think you needed a boon from GMing at a convention or else you needed to GM a dozen times to unlock that season's race. The player also had no control over which races were on offer.
Goblins, planar scions, ratfolk, catfolk, changelings, dhampir, leshies, lizardfolk and hobgoblins will be much more accessible under the Achievement Point system than they were in 1E.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
... the Elemental Scions, Nagaji, and Wayangs haven’t been introduced back into P2 at all yet.Yeah, and that isn't the decision of the Organized Play Team.
I think her point was that not quite a year into PF2 is a little early to expect having access to everything available to PFS at the end of PF1.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't the Boon for Uncommon Ancestries pretty affordable in PF2?
It is (at least for the ancestries we've seen the cost for) Assuming, of course, that ACP ever actually go live and we can buy it.
I, for one, am getting rather tired of the "they're coming soon, please be patient" mantra. The current situation was easily foreseeable (and was, in fact, foreseen by quite a few people) and various work arounds were suggested. All rejected because, of course, the ACP will be going live "real soon now" and so were not necessary.
If an ancestry were common, you could find that sort of person pretty much everywhere reasonably populated. This is true of humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, etc.
How common are goblins though?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How common are goblins though?
Considering how often, and in how many different locales, they appear as antagonists I feel comfortable saying that goblins are much more common, and more widely distributed, than like "elves."
They aren't necessarily living in the same cities, towns, etc. as humans et al. But "characters from the hinterlands" are not a new idea.
|
As in, play a single character of a Common Ancestry for 20 sessions (or GM 10 sessions) and you probably have enough Achievement Points for it?...That's 'you can't do this on your first character unless you GM a lot', not a major restriction in the long term.
Not to mention, I would argue increased incentives to GM are a good thing.
In PF1, didn't PFS make certain races available without boons on a season by season basis? Like "this season's events are in a place where this kind of people are found, so you can just play one".
|
|
I mean, in PF1 there were huge, huge number of races. How many of those could you play in PFS without a boon?
With the APG we'll be up to: Humans (including 1/2 humans), Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, Goblins, and Kobolds. That seems like a pretty solid set for 2 years in.
At the end of PF1 we had - ifrit, kitsune, nagaji, oread, sylph, tengu, undine, and wayang in addition to core races.
Now we don't have access to:: Leshy, Hobgoblins, Shoney, Hobgoblins, catfolk, orc, ratfolk, and tengu ancestries and the aasimar, changeling, dhampir, duskwalker, and tiefling versatile heritages.
PF2e has fewer choices than we left 1st ed with and has more denied than available. I can't see this a solid.
Which races were available year 1 of Pathfinder Society when it first launched? That is a far better comparison, suggesting that what is available at the end of a 10 year living campaign is a fair measure of what should be available at the beginning of another is like apples to oranges. I'm quite sure that we'll see more races available in PF2 than we ever did in PF1 eventually.
|
|
Which races were available year 1 of Pathfinder Society when it first launched?
Looks like everything was good until 2013 (sorry for the cut & paste formatting issues.
Version 1.1—8/11/08 - BF-before Pathfinder - Converting D&D characters to Glorian - Playing a halfling paladin from Cheliax is certainly possible. though it requires an interesting backstory to make it believable. Ultimately though, the choice is yours.
Version 2.01 9/15/09 - After you’ve finalized your ability scores, you must choose your character’s race and class. All of the options in the Pathfinder Roleplaying GameCore Rulebook are available to you with one minor adjustment:...
Version 3.0.2—10/7/10 - All of the options in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook are available to you with some minor adjustments.
Version 4.0—8/4/11 - Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Patfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Additional class and race options from resources like the Advanced Player’s Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, and the Inner Sea World Guide are generally available with few or no alterations, as well.
Version 4.3—January 7, 2013 - Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Core Rulebook. You may also select aasimar, tengu, or tiefing as your character’s race with access to the proper Additional Resources book. Additional class and race options from resources like the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic, Patfinder RPG Ultimate Combat, Path nder RPG Advanced Race Guide, and Patfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide are generally available with few or no alterations, as well.
And the boon boom drops here
Version 5.0—August 14, 2013 - Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Core Rulebook. You may also select aasimar, tengu, or tiefling as your character’s race with access to the proper Additional Resources book. Other races are not legal unless the character’s Chronicle stack includes a race boon. Additional class and race options from resources like the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide, and Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide are generally available with few or no alterations, as well. In some cases, such as magic item creation, the special nature of a worldwide organized play campaign requires minor changes to standard class features. Please note the following such changes:
Version 6.0—August 14, 2014 - Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Core Rulebook. You may also select kitsune, nagaji, tengu and wayang as your character’s race with access to the proper Additional Resources book. Other races are not legal unless the character’s Chronicle stack includes a race boon. Additional class and race options from resources like the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide, and Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide are generally available with few or no alterations, as well.
Version 7.0—July 30, 2015 - Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Core Rulebook. You may also select kitsune, nagaji, tengu and wayang as your character’s race with access to the proper Additional Resources book. Other races are not legal unless the character’s Chronicle stack includes a race boon. Additional class and race options from resources like the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide, and Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide are generally available with few or no alterations, as well.
Version 8.0—August 4, 2016 - Select your character’s race. The choices offered in the Core Rulebook are always available, as are ifrit, kitsune, nagaji, oread, sylph, tengu, undine, and wayang, provided you own a copy of the appropriate source book. Other races are available as campaign boons; the Chronicle sheet in which such a boon is available must be the first Chronicle sheet applied to a character.
Version 9.0 - Select your character’s race. The choices offered in the Core Rulebook are always available, as are ifrit, kitsune, nagaji, oread, sylph, tengu, undine, and wayang, provided you own a copy of the appropriate source book. Other races are available as campaign boons; the Chronicle sheet in which such a boon is available must be the first Chronicle sheet applied to a character.
Version 9.1 - Select your character’s race. The choices offered in the Core Rulebook are always available, as are ifrit, kitsune, nagaji, oread, sylph, tengu, undine, and wayang, provided you own a copy of the appropriate source book. Other races are available as campaign boons; the Chronicle sheet in which such a boon is available must be the first Chronicle sheet applied to a character.
|
|
Or to look at it another way, for the first 3-4 years it was only CRB races that were free... whereas we already have options beyond that, seems like a good sign no?
Were they? Reading the PFS OP guides, I don't see restrictions being placed on what you could play until 2013. That was before my time, were there restrictions and where are the listed?
Also, when were new playable races introduced? As playable races, no just a Bestiary entry.
|
|
Were they? Reading the PFS OP guides, I don't see restrictions being placed on what you could play until 2013. That was before my time, were there restrictions and where are the listed?Also, when were new playable races introduced? As playable races, no just a Bestiary entry.
Yep, it's right there in your quoted text from the first few guides.
"Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also bear in mind that the “additional race options” some of the entries mention are referring to alternate race traits, such as those that came out in the PF1 Advanced Players Guide, not just new races.
|
|
Yep, it's right there in your quoted text from the first few guides."Select your character’s class and race from the choices offered in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook"
Which was the only book with playable races until 2012. After which three non core races were available.
We have two books with non core races for 2nd ed and only one is free to play, putting us “behind” 1st ed.