Are There Any Classes or Class Abilities That You Wished Was Done Differently?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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That wood and void kineticist elemental defenses improved as you leveled like all the other ones did.

That the kineticist's basic kineisis gave more utility, basically 5 abilities instead of just 2-3.


The option for anyone to gain 2-4 at will cantrips as spell like abilities would be cool.

Shadow Lodge

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Dragon78 wrote:

Options that you could change one or more class features from a list. Archetypes are nice but many times they replace something you do not want to change.

An optional rule that lets you get one class ability/feature(for free) from another class at 1st level would be nice. Stuff like bardic knowledge, channel, evasion, lay on hands, monk AC, unarmed strike(brawler/monk), uncanny dodge, shifter claws, trap finding, etc.

There is a series of 3rd party pdfs that does this. The Talented [Class]. It is basically all the archetypes and various abilities [class] could get but you can now mix and match those abilities.


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Dragonborn3, sounds strange, a little broken, but interesting none the less;)

Shadow Lodge

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Here is the Monk pdf for the Talented series.


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One of my friends came up with a custom class creation built on a point buy system. Check it out if it interests you. Wouldn't recommend for beginners though.


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Scavion, interesting but why does the witch not have anything listed? they have hexes!


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Dragon78 wrote:
Scavion, interesting but why does the witch not have anything listed? they have hexes!

Hexes fall under Feat-like abilities same as Ninja Tricks, Ki Powers, Discoveries, etc.


Scavion wrote:
One of my friends came up with a custom class creation built on a point buy system. Check it out if it interests you. Wouldn't recommend for beginners though.

Good to have some free fan-made custom class creation stuff out there. :)

Kinda reminds me of the Play Manga D20 ruleset where they put class features and stuff under a point-buy, toolkit paradigm, as can be seen here and here. ;)


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Free stuff is always nice regardless if it is from an official source or not.


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That cantrips damage scaled with level or at least there was a feat that increased cantrip damage would be nice.

That almost every class got cantrips, at least every class that has any kind of magical ability.


That Witches could spontaneously cast their patron spells.


pad300 wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:

I wish the rules for adding classes to monsters were based off gestalt rules rather than the absurd boosts that come from adding class levels.

Like 4/4/2/2/0/-2 is such a huge stat boost and then you start adding additional hit dice? A Succubus with 12 levels of Sorcerer is a 20 HD monster and that just seems unreasonable when it would have been easier to use gestalt rules and make it a 12 HD monster.

I know its only like, parallel to class discussion but it was on my mind the other day.

Yes, the rules adding class levels to monsters are easily abused to produce enormously under-CR'ed critters.

I used to struggle with this, as well. I have used the rules as written, I have used the gestalt type system you suggest... now I just build enemy/NPC's to have the stats and abilities I want them to have...

I had built a Succubus with Rogue levels and Mesmerist levels, but didn't like how many HD the class levels brought her to... I later built a Leprechaun with Rogue levels but kept his HD the same to try keep the CR low... If I was to revisit them and rebuild them, I would gestalt the class levels over the Succubus' racial HD to keep her HD lower, like I did the Leprechaun.

You can find published monsters with class levels that have the exact same HD as the same monster without class levels, so it's possible to do either, or both...an example of this is Quicklings... they have 4HD, and Quickling Rogue 2 also/still has 4HD...

Like, if I want a specific class ability, sure, I will give a monster enough levels in the class to get whatever I am looking for... but the stats will ultimately be determined by the Monster Stats by CR tables.


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I have made a topic a while back about fixing different archetypes with house rules.

Some of these changes would have been a LOT better in the real game.


That all casters got a lot more 1st (and maybe 2nd level) spells.

That the Brawler, Monk, Shifter, and all other classes/archetypes that focus on unarmed or natural attacks gain an enhancement bonus on those attacks. It would be +1 at 3rd or 4th level and an additional +1 every 4 levels after.

That sorcerers got their 1st level bloodline spell at 1st and additional bloodline spells at the level they gained new spell levels.


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Witch hexes... the “this hex cannot affect the same target again for 24hours” bit... compounded by several of them having that same lockout apply even if the target succeeded their save to negate the hex entirely... or the beneficial ones like healing only acting as cure light wounds once per 24hrs... it really makes the more flavorful and interesting hexes feel like wasted hex slots...

Similarly once per rage rage powers... just... why? Especially the ones that are super situational and require declaring their use before you make any rolls... if the power can only work on a crit it shouldn’t require use before the attack is rolled... it feels horrible to use a once per rage power only to fail to meet the conditions for its effect... simply failing to land the effect is easier to accept. It’s like if you went to cast a spell on a wizard and you had to roll a d20 to even be able to cast a spell, failing on anything less than a nat 20 with a success range altered by some hand held focus item, but success or fail you expend the spell all the same, and still suffer all consequences for even attempting a spell cast...

Scout archetype for rogue... really wish it had more directly paralleled its 3.5 origins of the Skirmisher class... skirmish should have been available at level 1 (3 at latest) instead of level 8...

Occultist, conjuration focus resonate power... as it was written it only actually affects maybe 5 total spells from the conjuration spell list... it should have been a more general purpose ability or had a secondary benefit that affected a larger selection of spells...


I agree, not a fan of once per rage powers. I am fine with once every 24 hours hexes that don't give a save. If it gives a save then you should be able to try more then once.

Yeah, not a fan of class features that alter/boost spells, but only really effects 6 or less spells on their spell list.


That all save DCs for Kineticist were based on their Con, not some are Con based and some are Dex based.

That you could pic what kind of wild talent(infusion or utility) you get for the kineticist at any level.


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How did I miss this thread? Don't have time to catch up right now, but marking to come back to when I can -- maybe after this week I won't have to both get up early and get out of work late . . . .


All caught up!

I wish they had broken from the D&D 3.x custom of divine full casters getting to be d8, 3/4 BAB and been uniform about full casters being d6, 1/2 BAB and the d8, 3/4 BAB casters being mid-range casters (6/9 with the current spell power/level balance, although I would say that also needed tweaking(*)). So combat Clerics would be more like Warpriests, and a separate Priest(?) class would be a 9/9, d6, 1/2 BAB divine casting class; and Druid would be a 6/9, d8, 3/4 BAB divine casting class.

(*)Especially to decompress the upper level spells -- level-bump the most powerful ones of each level. Pathfinder 2nd Edition did this a little bit, but then they outright canceled all of the 6/9 and 4/9 casters (replacing a subset of these with 9/9 casters or Focus-only casters that just don't feel the same), which is a real let-down. Properly decompressed spells would probably go beyond 10th level, converting full casters to something like 12/12, 6/9 casters to something like 8/12, and 4/9 casters (with a spellcasting progression having proper mathematical adjustment to scale properly over a broader range of levels) to something like 6/12, and pushing the most overpowered spells up into Epic levels where they belong.


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Oozemorph. I love oozes. I want to play an ooze. I just wish it worked at all


The Shifter in general could have used a lot of fixes, let alone it's archetypes.

A playable ooze race would have worked as well.


Oozemorph should have been a playable ancestry (race). Making it an archetype of an already severely lacking class just didn't work. Furthermore failing to leave this for a splatbook resulted in something that was really sloppy.


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"really sloppy" - pun intended?


JiCi wrote:

Fighter

Revamp all the archetypes so their class features would replace the bonus feats instead of the Weapon/Armor Training. Seriously, the Weapon Master Handbook finally gave the Fighter a boost, but almost every archetype replace Weapon/Armor Training, thus barring you from taking the Advanced Training options.

Maybe to develop further:

- The Weapon Master Handbook offers much needed alternate options for Weapon and Armor Training, considering that specializing in one specific area wasn't that rewarding.

- Since the Handbook came out late, 90% of the fighter's archetypes cannot benefit from the Advanced Training options, because they get replaced by other features.

- Of all the Bonus Feats the fighter can pick, there is NONE that exist that would allow a fighter, or another character, to get Weapon and/or Armor Training. Yes, there is NO WAY to obtain Weapon/Armor Training outside of the regular leveling rules. Other classes can "get back" traded abilities by other means, but not the fighter.

- Fighters are mostly known for the insane amount of bonus feats they can pick, so it begs the question why archetypes just didn't trade those for the features. Yes, some Armor/Weapon Training were altered, but it was mostly to restrict, not to trade.


There are a lot archetypes I would have liked to have redone.


I wish they had done more of the kind of class specialization concept that they introduce but then almost immediately largely abandoned with the Vigilante(*). This would have cut down a lot on the number of archetypes needed to produce (almost) the same result.

(*)Not totally a new idea -- Oracle Mysteries are the standout for class specialization before this, with bonus points for the Oracle Curses being almost entirely independently selectable from Mysteries. But with Vigilante it stood out as a simple specialization like 2nd Edition's Rogue Racket, etc., but then for some reason the overwhelming majority of Vigilante archetypes just replace it instead of using it.


Personally I liked the play test version of vigilante were you had a lot more customization of your super hero powers/persona. The archetypes are lot more limiting and many times get abilities at much higher levels then they should...or don't get them at all.


^I missed the Ultimate Intrigue Playtest document, but your mention of Playtest reminded me: Where's our Harrowed Medium?


Yeah, would have liked to have seen the Harrowed Medium.


That we got at least one stat point per level instead of just at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. No stat boosting items needed.

That all classes got 1/2 their character level to AC. No amulets of natural armor and rings of protection needed.

Base saves increased by 2, no cloaks of resistance needed.

That all skills are class skills...at least once you put a rank in it.


Dragon78 wrote:

That we got at least one stat point per level instead of just at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. No stat boosting items needed.

That all classes got 1/2 their character level to AC. No amulets of natural armor and rings of protection needed.

Base saves increased by 2, no cloaks of resistance needed.

That all skills are class skills...at least once you put a rank in it.

3 out of 4 of those are covered by Automatic Bonus Progression


Automatic bonus progression is like buying those magic items without using the slots but they are still granting the same bonuses. So you cannot benefit from spells (and other magic items) that grant those same bonuses. Also the automatic stat bonuses do not give you the same versatility that 1(or more) stat point(s) per level would. Plus what I want would have been a core rule not an optional rule that acts like template that cost 1/2 your money.


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I've guess I've got a few gripes:

Investigator: I was always unreasonably irritated that Investigators didn't have any way of creating potions, but had class abilities dependent on them. Frankly, the Alchemist Brew Potion should have been a discovery that either of those classes could access.

Mesmerist: Any kind of bonus to attack, pretty much whatsoever. If you want to play a melee Mesmerist, you're in pretty much the same position as the chained rogue. One good fix would have been to have the Hypnotic Stare ability penalize AC as well, or at least include that as a Bold Stare option.

And don't get me started on the Vexing Daredevil.

Occultist: The panoplies are great, flavorful, and useful - which makes it all the more irritating when archetypes cut off access to the panoplies because the panoplies require implements be specific items.

Sorcerer: Not being able to mix and match Wildblooded bloodlines with other archetypes was always a bummer - and bloodlines in general should have been more modular. So many of them have one or two great, flavorful abilities, and the rest of what they grant is wildly disappointing. Bloodline Familiars and Mutations were a step in the right direction, but not enough.

In general, and not limited to Sorcerers, Squiggit hit the nail on the head with his comment on modularity in the first page of this thread.

Unchained Summoner: The OG Summoner certainly had (many) issues, but the Unchained fix went too far in the wrong direction trying to fix them. Unchained Eidolons, especially, feel pigeonholed into pre-set flavors.

Vigilante: Overall, I love the Vigilante - but the decision to use Hidden Strike instead of Sneak Attack is a bit baffling. The Magical Child's companion is also a disappointment.

VMC's: Only a small number of the VMCs feel like they're actually worth the trade (Barbarian, Sorcerer, Wizard, and Magus); the rest feel like they could have been interesting if not for an overabundance of caution.


Dragon78 wrote:

That we got at least one stat point per level instead of just at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. No stat boosting items needed.

{. . .}

That might have been a bit much (like I think Pathfinder 2nd Edition goes way overboard with its boosts, although they are more concentrated into fewer boost levels), but I wouldn't mind giving a Point Buy point at every level, or at least at every even level (either way, this would require allowing fractional ability scores, so might as well allow those from the point of character creation).


If you don't have stat boosting items(and from wishes), it is not too much.

A stat point per level gets you 20 stat points.

Stat enhancement items can get you +6 to all stats(36 points) not including +5 stat points for levels and +5 to all stats(+30) from wishes.


Something like the Starfinder ability boosts to multiple abilities (and less in the way of stat items) isn't a terrible idea IMO. Letting a wizard put everything into Int, not so much.


Someone on here mentioned that their group gets 1 point buy point/ level; pretty good for MAD classes.


Well max stats would be 18-20+ level so max would be 28-30 by level 20.


avr wrote:
Something like the Starfinder ability boosts to multiple abilities (and less in the way of stat items) isn't a terrible idea IMO. Letting a wizard put everything into Int, not so much.

Remember that if it's point buy points (used in level-up in the same way as at character creation) instead of ability score points, shoveling them all into Intelligence actually won't get you very far, since you get diminishing returns. Supposing it was a point buy point every level after 1st, and you started with 18 Intelligence and thereafter shoveled everything into it, you get to 19 Intelligence at 5th level, 20 Intelligence at 10th level, 21 Intelligence at 15th level, and 22 Intelligence at 21st level. That's only +2 more Intelligence modifier than you started with, and you have to go slightly Epic to finish it out, and you don't get ANYTHING else other than what magic items and temporary buffs and (rarely) some kind of blessing get you. So maybe a point buy point every level after 1st isn't too much after all. (By contrast, Pathfinder 2nd Edition also gets you from 18 to 22 Intelligence at 20th level if you maximize your boosts, but it also lets you power boost 3 other ability scores.)


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That the Samurai had ki powers especially related to their weapon and that they had some "law" related abilities like bypassing DR/chaotic and doing extra damage to chaotic aligned creatures.


^That would make Samurai have the same problem as Monks, of a base class being arbitraily tied to Lawful alignment. That said, I wouldn't mind a Samurai Order that worked like this, and the design space would even support such a thing. But then that brings to mind a problem with the design of several of the Cavaliar/Samurai Orders: They are named as singular Orders (Order of the Lion, Order of the Star, etc.), when their main reason for being would clearly differ depending upon which nation/ruler, religion, etc. you serve.

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