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Literally from the book about rare exceptions and unique heros.
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Some demons have been redeemed, so killing demons is an evil act too. And since it's never been proven that Asmodeus and the Oinodaemon can't become good, killing them must be evil. In fact, the only thing that is definitely evil is a paladin because all paladins will inevitably fall and the existence of antipaladins proves that every fallen paladin is inevitably going to become evil through and through.
That actually proves nothing. Any character can worship any deity regardless of alignment. Clerics and most divine spell casters usually have to be within one step of their deity. But considering that fact that Sarenrae is NG she could have a true neutral cleric.
While I tend to agree with the fact that a good character should not murder helpless children even if they are from races that tends towards evil, you failed to prove anything. There are also circumstances that could force even a good character to have to kill an innocent.
We just had one of these. No one changes their mind and the thread eventually gets locked. Just putting this whole thread on ignore to save some sanity.
That actually proves nothing. Any character can worship any deity regardless of alignment. Clerics and most divine spell casters usually have to be within one step of their deity. But considering that fact that Sarenrae is NG she could have a true neutral cleric.
Yeah, you can be a chaotic evil worshiper of Sarenrae. She's surprisingly cool with it too.
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Literally from the book about rare exceptions and unique heros.Because 99% of adventurers murder Goblin babies. Thus it is rare that they actually get raised properly. But murder of a non-evil (EDIT: and defenseless) creature is in fact an evil act, and since when raised properly, Goblins can be good aligned, it is a fact that they are neutral to begin with.
Actually its not a fact. the fact is they're NE.
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Goblin babies aside, this thread does deserve to die in its infancy.
Love this.
I prefer the term Tyrant Antipaladin, if you must know.
And no, I've never fallen for killing goblin babies, or any babies. Not that my patron would mind, ofcourse, but killing infantile creatures is just beneath me. Why murder what you can enslave and force to serve you?
Also I'm a big fan of the Church of Sarenrae. The most annoying ones try to redeem me (ha!) and some the more reasonable ones are really chill. We can talk about slavery is just a cultural norm and it's all subjective, man.
*twirls mustache*
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This is irrefutable proof that subjective alignment was left out of D&D for good reason.
And even more that complex, tedious cyclical debates about morality in-game are complex, tedious and cyclical.
xp for murdering goblins just went up by 1,000 fold for any campaign I run. Double for paladins.
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Actually its not a fact. the fact is they're NE.Literally from the book about rare exceptions and unique heros.Because 99% of adventurers murder Goblin babies. Thus it is rare that they actually get raised properly. But murder of a non-evil (EDIT: and defenseless) creature is in fact an evil act, and since when raised properly, Goblins can be good aligned, it is a fact that they are neutral to begin with.
Actually that is a fact, even in P1 Goblins were not innately evil. Don't bring your houserules into this.
Huh....whats this say? Wow, neutral evil. I'm not the one bringing houserules.
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Huh....whats this say? Wow, neutral evil. I'm not the one bringing houserules.
It says you need to learn to read the Bestiary.
With the exceptions of Outsiders and Undead Alignment listed is usual as an example of that species, not absolute, and it certainly isn't innate.
You declaring that all Goblins are NE is in fact a houserule.
Alignment, Size, and Type: While a monster’s size and type remain constant (unless changed by the application of templates or other unusual modifiers), alignment is far more fluid. The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
Huh....whats this say? Wow, neutral evil. I'm not the one bringing houserules.It says you need to learn to read the Bestiary.
With the exceptions of Outsiders and Undead Alignment listed is usual as an example of that species, not absolute, and it certainly isn't innate.
You declaring that all Goblins are NE is in fact a houserule.
Nope NE, other examples are exceptions that prove the rule.
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Nope NE, other examples are exceptions that prove the rule.Huh....whats this say? Wow, neutral evil. I'm not the one bringing houserules.It says you need to learn to read the Bestiary.
With the exceptions of Outsiders and Undead Alignment listed is usual as an example of that species, not absolute, and it certainly isn't innate.
You declaring that all Goblins are NE is in fact a houserule.
Not in the slightest.
Again, claiming Goblins are innately Evil is a houserule of your own concoctions, not something validated by the rules.
Nope NE, other examples are exceptions that prove the rule.Huh....whats this say? Wow, neutral evil. I'm not the one bringing houserules.It says you need to learn to read the Bestiary.
With the exceptions of Outsiders and Undead Alignment listed is usual as an example of that species, not absolute, and it certainly isn't innate.
You declaring that all Goblins are NE is in fact a houserule.
Not in the slightest.
Again, claiming Goblins are innately Evil is a houserule of your own concoctions, not something validated by the rules.
Nope
There's two questions here being treated as one (as in the same thread we just had about this):
1) Are goblins (almost) always evil by the mechanics of Pathfinder?
No. A GM isn't required to follow strictly to a creature's statblock. Customizing monsters is a core mechanic of the game. If I want to make a CE owlbear wizard (and by golly do I) I can.
2) Are goblins (almost) always evil in the setting of Golarion?
It's complicated. At the publication of RotRL, this seems to be the intention. However, as the setting advanced and more APs were published some exceptions have been made. Still generally evil, but not inherently like outsiders or undead.
2e is a continuation of the Golarion setting, and Paizo can do whatever they want with their own setting. I don't really understand the exact status of goblins post the 2e release, but their alignment seems to be a lot less overwhelmingly evil (but still chaotic). Goblin heroes are now more common. Not sure why this is, yet.
Personally, I prefer goblins as little psychopaths, equal parts terrifying, tragic, and hilarious. Not beyond redemption, but certainly not easy to save otherwise.
Is this a houserule? It feels rather murky.
Will we ever get a definite answer to one of these threads?
No. If Paizo's answer has changed over the years, anyone can point to and argue with contradictory evidence. If you're really invested in Golarion lore, go with the most recent version.
If killing babies is something that seems like a fun thing for you and your table to play out, you probably need help.
*le shrug*
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Can we all agree that the number of non-evil goblins is greater than the number of people who have changed their minds based on one of these threads?
I guess what keeps respawning these threads is that PF goblins are very like evil children, and some players have occasionally evil children, others were occasionally evil children once, and the latter kind at least may not like to fantasize about being stabbed and buried in a shallow grave.
I guess what keeps respawning these threads is that PF goblins are very like evil children, and some players have occasionally evil children, others were occasionally evil children once, and the latter kind at least may not like to fantasize about being stabbed and buried in a shallow grave.
They should consider pf2
You declaring that all Goblins are NE is in fact a houserule.Alignment, Size, and Type: While a monster’s size and type remain constant (unless changed by the application of templates or other unusual modifiers), alignment is far more fluid. The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.
While I disagree with the entirety of Ryan's argument, he's not entirely wrong. Unbolded and rebolded for emphasis. By the same passage you quoted, it states that NE is what is normal for the race in Golarion. You can Rule Zero to whatever you need, but that is the baseline the setting operates on as seen in the lore itself I.E A 4 year long bloody conflict many nations in Golarion would be invested in making sure never happens again. A Sarenite Paladin from Osirion might balk at such a deed whereas an Andoran Eagle Knight may recall the atrocities committed in those years by goblinkind.
While I disagree with the entirety of Ryan's argument, he's not entirely wrong. Unbolded and rebolded for emphasis. By the same passage you quoted, it states that NE is what is normal for the race in Golarion. You can Rule Zero to whatever you need, but that is the baseline the setting operates on as seen in the lore itself I.E A 4 year long bloody conflict many nations in Golarion would be invested in making sure never happens again. A Sarenite Paladin from Osirion might balk at such a deed whereas an Andoran Eagle Knight may recall the atrocities committed in those years by goblinkind.
Ding, ding, ding. We've reached the crux of this. No matter how many outliers (in some cases that literally no one knows about) you pull out, expecting inner sea PC's in a 1st ed, sticking close to canon campaign to behave as though they have any real idea that goblins are anything but dangerous cannibals and pyromaniacs who will literally eat your children.
There's a reason my productive answer when this came up most recently was "You need to talk to your GM and ask if you can make a knowledge religion roll to see what your faith's position is on this situation" Because the paladin PC would more than likely have heard some parable or another regarding a similar situation. At the end of the day the gm's take informs what that knowledge roll says and establishes where the cosmology sits at their table, and if the gm doesn't know the answer, i'd suggest not putting moral quandries with mechanical consequences into the game you aren't prepared to address.
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You do realize that "exception that proves the rule" is meant in sense of it testing the rule :p
Like using same argument, nothing in bestiary entry says that average goblin baby is NE level 1 warrior since its statblock for adult one.
That said I think arguing about this further is kinda pointless because they are really keen on explaining why good party killing goblin babies is okay judging by the previous thread
According to the advance race guide goblin mature much faster than other races. Unlike human babies goblins babies are almost completely self-sufficient shortly after birth. A human baby usually takes a little of a year to learn to walk and about a year to a year and a half before they start to talk. If a goblin baby is able to do this within a few weeks of being born than maybe they also pick up other traits earlier as well. By the time a goblin is a few years old they may have already become evil even if they are not necessarily inherently evil. Just because it takes a human time to mature enough to be considered evil does not mean that all other races take the same time.
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Either way, until goblin baby would be adult, they wouldn't be fully mentally capable by goblin standards. Self sufficiency just means they aren't constantly helpless, nothing about their mental state, game doesn't comment that far about goblin biology or nurturing :p
I'm mostly arguing against idea that because bestiary goblin is NE, that means rules say baby goblins are NE (since apparently now bestiary example is proof of how rule wise goblins are all NE)